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Thread: Two subtype functional analysis

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    Default Two subtype functional analysis

    This is all based on observation. This analysis was construed with the aid of Hitta's interpretation of model B.

    Accepting subtype:

    *Energized base
    *Creative may be under-developed. Used ocasionally.
    *May be somewhat proficient at PoLR. Engages in it sometimes (especially in private).
    *Role may be under-developed. Due to emphasis on base, it is seldom used.
    *The need for DS is emphasized.
    *HA is naturally strong, but not as important for the user as in the other subtype.
    *Demonstrative is semi-valued.
    *Energized Observant, which is strong. However, infomation is not readily absorbed via it due to constant need of DS (and due to antithetical nature of DS and Observant).

    -Dynamics: Base and observant act together in a pack, constantly supplying DS. HA is used frequently to mobilize.
    -Development: Starts off with proficiency in Base, Observant, HA, and Demonstrative. Over time time learns DS, Role, Creative. Greatest potential at mastering DS.
    -Unhealth: User becomes fixated on their PoLR. Role might also "invade" the ego functions, replacing base. Demonstrative is also used inadequately.

    Producing subtype:

    *Base is “loose”, and may be not very proficient. Doesn’t possess the full skillset of the function.
    *Creative is energized, very important and used permanently.
    *PoLR is completely disregarded. Creative is used everytime in place of PoLR (the áreas that PoLR are supposed to cover, are covered by creative instead)
    *Role is emphasized and used permanently. The Creative-Role pathway dynamic of model A is strengthened.
    *Proficient at producing DS. Can go a long time without needing DS. Voices judgements in áreas pertaining to DS. Frequently these judgments are more accurate than the ones produced by others who have said function in the ego or demonstrative.
    *HA is not initially as strong as in the other subtype, but has much greater importance. It is energized and needs it more than DS.
    *Demonstrative is very strong and also energized. However, it is not valued at all (the focus is on creative+HA).
    *Observant may be like a second PoLR. However, due to not a great need of DS, information is readily accepted.

    -Dynamics: Creative, Role, HA and Demonstrative are used in a team, to further satiating the need of HA.
    -Development: Starts off with a very strong demonstrative and creative. Over time learns HA, Role. Has the highest potential for HA mastery. The remaining functions don’t vary by a whole lot.
    -Unhealth: User becomes fixated on their HA in detriment of all other functions.

    Overall the accepting subtype is a more stable type. Producing subtypes have more pronounced weaknesses.
    Last edited by mclane; 04-22-2017 at 08:17 PM.

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    Accepting subtype:

    *Energized base
    --Not sure
    *Creative may be under-developed. Used ocasionally.
    --I use my Ne quite frequently.

    *May be somewhat proficient at PoLR. Engages in it sometimes (especially in private).
    --No, I like to avoid it when possible.

    *Role may be under-developed. Due to emphasis on base, it is seldom used.
    --I used my role quite frequently. It's probably why I often confuse myself for LII.

    *The need for DS is emphasized.
    --Not sure. I feel like I don't always need DS Te.

    *HA is naturally strong, but not as important for the user as in the other subtype.
    --I consider my HA both strong and important. HA!

    *Demonstrative is semi-valued.
    --What does it mean for a function to be semi-valued? Is it intermediate between 'valued' and 'unvalued'? Which in that case, I suppose yes.

    *Energized Observant, which is strong. However, infomation is not readily absorbed via it due to constant need of DS (and due to antithetical nature of DS and Observant).
    --Energized observant-- what? Do you mean the ignoring function? My ignoring is Fe and yet it's quite energized at times.

    -Dynamics: Base and observant act together in a pack, constantly supplying DS. HA is used frequently to mobilize.
    --Can you give a specific example here? What would this look like in EII?

    -Development: Starts off with proficiency in Base, Observant, HA, and Demonstrative. Over time time learns DS, Role, Creative. Greatest potential at mastering DS.
    --Not sure what I started off with and what I learned over time. I think strong use of the base and creative were always there but that's well, duh!


    Producing subtype:

    *Base is “loose”, and may be not very proficient. Doesn’t possess the full skillset of the function.
    --Possibly true

    *Creative is energized, very important and used permanently.
    --Yes!

    *PoLR is completely disregarded. Creative is used everytime in place of PoLR (the áreas that PoLR are supposed to cover, are covered by creative instead)
    --Maybe not completely disregarded. But definitely something I don't value I would prefer to avoid if possible. Or just use Ne or some other function like Si to compensate.

    *Role is emphasized and used permanently. The Creative-Role pathway dynamic of model A is strengthened.
    --Yes, I look alot like LII to people.

    *Proficient at producing DS. Can go a long time without needing DS. Voices judgements in áreas pertaining to DS. Frequently these judgments are more accurate than the ones produced by others who have said function in the ego or demonstrative.
    --But the DS is a 1D function so it makes me wonder how proficient it really is. Well maybe if you have alot of experience. Te- okay sometimes I'll try to produce it when required with very mixed results. I can't say my Te judgements are more accurate than those having it in the ego or demonstrative. That's like saying 1D is superior to 3D or 4D, makes little sense.

    *HA is not initially as strong as in the other subtype, but has much greater importance. It is energized and needs it more than DS.
    --Yeah, I think prefer HA even more than DS. HA!

    *Demonstrative is very strong and also energized. However, it is not valued at all (the focus is on creative+HA).
    --I think it is strong and SEMI-valued. Lets introduce some new socionics terms now because we can!

    *Observant may be like a second PoLR. However, due to not a great need of DS, information is readily accepted.
    --Sometimes I can easily get overwhelmed with Fe, especially when excessive. It seems to be moreso from EIE than with ESE. EIE- extinguishment type plus valued Se.

    -Dynamics: Creative, Role, HA and Demonstrative are used in a team, to further satiating the need of HA.
    --I'm not consciously aware of how they all work in a team but they all seem to be significant to me.

    -Development: Starts off with a very strong demonstrative and creative. Over time learns HA, Role. Has the highest potential for HA mastery. The remaining functions don’t vary by a whole lot.
    --I think this model of development makes more sense for me than the accepting subtype.

    Producing > accepting subtype for me.

    Overall the accepting subtype is a more stable type. Producing subtypes have more pronounced weaknesses.
    --Can I change my subtype to accepting? Who wants to be the subtype with more weaknesses? At least I have a better HA. HA!
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    --What does it mean for a function to be semi-valued? Is it intermediate between 'valued' and 'unvalued'?
    Yeah, I just coined the term for something that's not supposed to be among the valued functions, but turns out to be somewhat valued in reality.

    what? Do you mean the ignoring function?
    Observant = Ignoring. I find the former term more accurate.

    -Dynamics: Base and observant act together in a pack, constantly supplying DS. HA is used frequently to mobilize.
    --Can you give a specific example here? What would this look like in EII?
    For example in EII-Fi: The base (+Fi) and the ignoring (+Fe) are constantly used to scan data pertaining to these two aspects of reality, for the purpose of gaining knowledge of +Te. It's a bit hard to put into words. In accepting subtypes, the goal is always to further the DS.


    At least I have a better HA. HA!
    Better HA potentially.

    May I ask, have you ever considered a LII typing for youself (for example LII-Ne-- which would be similar in many aspects to EII)?. I think the analysis would make more sense in that case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post

    Observant = Ignoring. I find the former term more accurate.
    Interesting. I guess I never perceived the ignoring as observant. How can it be observant when its ignoring?
    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    May I ask, have you ever considered a LII typing for youself (for example LII-Ne-- which would be similar in many aspects to EII)?. I think the analysis would make more sense in that case.
    That was my former self-typing. Who knows, I may go back to it again. The EII-LII line for me has always been rather blurred.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    This is all based on observation. This analysis was construed using Model B.
    That is not Model B.

    This is:

    http://socionic.info/pdf/as498.pdf

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...TIM_and_Socion

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    This is all based on observation. This analysis was construed using Model B. (...)
    The producing subtype here fits me surprisingly well for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    *Role is emphasized and used permanently. The Creative-Role pathway dynamic of model A is strengthened.
    --Yes, I look alot like LII to people.
    Because you Ti much more naturally than Fi.

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    What do you mean by Creative is used everytime in place of PoLR (the áreas that PoLR are supposed to cover, are covered by creative instead)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHiddenJack View Post
    What do you mean by Creative is used everytime in place of PoLR (the áreas that PoLR are supposed to cover, are covered by creative instead)
    Producing subtypes don't understand at all PoLR. It's like an aspect of reality that they are missing in their brains. So they need something to cover that absence; usually it is done with creative and the opposite sign IM of the same type that is in their HA (for example, in the case of LIE-Ni, they don't have +Si at all, but they cover it with +Ni creative and -Si that is in their HA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Producing subtypes don't understand at all PoLR. It's like an aspect of reality that they are missing in their brains. So they need something to cover that absence; usually it is done with creative and the opposite sign IM of the same type that is in their HA (for example, in the case of LIE-Ni, they don't have +Si at all, but they cover it with +Ni creative and -Si that is in their HA).
    Well, if that's how it works, then let's use Model B. I keep hearing people say "you don't see your PoLR" and I'm like "of course you do because I haven't starved to death yet and don't entirely perceive reality via psychic powers". But if I don't see -Si but do see +Si at least that gives me something to exist in the physical world with. It's an aspect of I can't use, not per se. This model also explains some other things...

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    Added observations on "unhealth".

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    Havent gone through to nitpick at all, but id say most of this is accurate.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Because you Ti much more naturally than Fi.
    You know, I'm starting to think you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Well, if that's how it works, then let's use Model B. I keep hearing people say "you don't see your PoLR" and I'm like "of course you do because I haven't starved to death yet and don't entirely perceive reality via psychic powers". But if I don't see -Si but do see +Si at least that gives me something to exist in the physical world with. It's an aspect of I can't use, not per se. This model also explains some other things...
    I am Se PoLR and I am definitely aware of my Se. When I'm using it, when other people are using it. The PoLR function is in the mental ring. We tend to be more consciously aware of the usage of the functions in the mental ring.

    For reference, mental ring functions are 1-4. Functions 5-8 are in the vital ring. They are more subconscious and tend to just 'do.' It's harder to verbalize our reasoning or the process of how we use the vital ring functions.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Helppp. I feel like I relate more to the Producing subtype. @mclane watchu thinking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    *Base is “loose”, and may be not very proficient. Doesn’t possess the full skillset of the function.

    What does this mean?

    adding also; is the producing subtype more productive?
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 04-01-2017 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Helppp. I feel like I relate more to the Producing subtype. @mclane watchu thinking?
    Not sure. You seem to have settled on IEE-Ne as your type, but are you completely sure of this typing? My theory could be not completely accurate also, mind you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    What does this mean?

    adding also; is the producing subtype more productive?
    I mean that base in the producing subtype only contains one part of the full composite IM. In the case of LSI-Se for example, they will only have +Ti as base, instead of the full -Te/+Ti they would have if they were the accepting subtype. This also happens with other functional positions whether they are "energized" or not, but I haven't quite figured out how it works yet.

    Productivity has nothing to do with the two-subtype theory. I guess it has more to do with being a Normalizing or a Dominant DCHN (if any).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    I mean that base in the producing subtype only contains one part of the full composite IM. In the case of LSI-Se for example, they will only have +Ti as base, instead of the full -Te/+Ti they would have if they were the accepting subtype. This also happens with other functional positions whether they are "energized" or not, but I haven't quite figured out how it works yet.

    Productivity has nothing to do with the two-subtype theory. I guess it has more to do with being a Normalizing or a Dominant DCHN (if any).
    Sorry if too specific, but what is "full composite IM" vs "only contains one part"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Not sure. You seem to have settled on IEE-Ne as your type, but are you completely sure of this typing? My theory could be not completely accurate also, mind you.
    Hm... ok ok, I'll figure it out somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Sorry if too specific, but what is "full composite IM" vs "only contains one part"?
    The hypothesis hitta discovered (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-of-Model-B), which I have tested and concluded to be correct. That IM's are composed of two parts, one + sign and one -sign. Sometimes, they only contain one part only, while other times they contain both parts.

    I want also to clarify what I mean by "energized". "Energized" functions have sort of a "flow" going through them, causing them to become linked with other energized functions, all of which together act in sort of a chain. "Loose" functions do not form part of this chain, and act sort of independently. The accepting subtype would have base, ignoring and DS energized, while the producing subtype would have Creative, role, HA and demonstrative energized. The remaining functions would be "loose".

    I really need to craft a diagram of all this. Anybody have a suggestion for a program I could use (I'd rather not use MS paint :/).

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    Alright, I did something in MS paint...





    An example with both subtypes of IEI of how the +/- signs would work in each:




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    I am so intrigued by this

    gif1.gi.gif

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    This is all based on observation. This analysis was construed using Model B.

    Accepting subtype:

    *Energized base
    *Creative may be under-developed. Used ocasionally.
    *May be somewhat proficient at PoLR. Engages in it sometimes (especially in private).
    *Role may be under-developed. Due to emphasis on base, it is seldom used.
    *The need for DS is emphasized.
    *HA is naturally strong, but not as important for the user as in the other subtype.
    *Demonstrative is semi-valued.
    *Energized Observant, which is strong. However, infomation is not readily absorbed via it due to constant need of DS (and due to antithetical nature of DS and Observant).

    -Dynamics: Base and observant act together in a pack, constantly supplying DS. HA is used frequently to mobilize.
    -Development: Starts off with proficiency in Base, Observant, HA, and Demonstrative. Over time time learns DS, Role, Creative. Greatest potential at mastering DS.
    -Unhealth: User becomes fixated on their PoLR. Role might also "invade" the ego functions, replacing base. Demonstrative is also used inadequately.

    Producing subtype:

    *Base is “loose”, and may be not very proficient. Doesn’t possess the full skillset of the function.
    *Creative is energized, very important and used permanently.
    *PoLR is completely disregarded. Creative is used everytime in place of PoLR (the áreas that PoLR are supposed to cover, are covered by creative instead)
    *Role is emphasized and used permanently. The Creative-Role pathway dynamic of model A is strengthened.
    *Proficient at producing DS. Can go a long time without needing DS. Voices judgements in áreas pertaining to DS. Frequently these judgments are more accurate than the ones produced by others who have said function in the ego or demonstrative.
    *HA is not initially as strong as in the other subtype, but has much greater importance. It is energized and needs it more than DS.
    *Demonstrative is very strong and also energized. However, it is not valued at all (the focus is on creative+HA).
    *Observant may be like a second PoLR. However, due to not a great need of DS, information is readily accepted.

    -Dynamics: Creative, Role, HA and Demonstrative are used in a team, to further satiating the need of HA.
    -Development: Starts off with a very strong demonstrative and creative. Over time learns HA, Role. Has the highest potential for HA mastery. The remaining functions don’t vary by a whole lot.
    -Unhealth: User becomes fixated on their HA in detriment of all other functions.

    Overall the accepting subtype is a more stable type. Producing subtypes have more pronounced weaknesses.
    I agree with many of your points/findings.

    Here are some of the revisions I'd do:

    Accepting subtype:

    *May be somewhat proficient at PoLR if strong subtype. Engages in it once in a while if it is conducive to a goal connected to a valued information element. PoLR is "shielded", meaning less vulnerable.
    *Demonstrative can be on/off and more fickle.

    -Dynamics: Base and HA [I have found the "Observant" is actually more regulated and restricted by this subtype, in favour of the Base] act together in a pack, attempting to compensate for the lack of DS supply and/or proficiency. HA is used frequently to mobilize, potentially to unnecessarily frequent amounts depending on the strength of the subtype.
    -Development: Starts off with proficiency in Base, Observant, HA, and Demonstrative. Over time attempts to learn DS, Role,and possibly expand the Creative. Greatest potential at mastering HA [there is no way that someone with a "boosted" Base is going to reach the greatest mastery at their DS, the two aspects cancel each other out – you are either great at the former or the latter].


    Producing subtype:

    *Feels more or less proficient at understanding and receiving DS from the outside on their own. Can go a long time without needing DS. Voices judgements in areas pertaining to DS. Frequently questions or challenges the judgments of the ones produced by others who have said function in the ego or demonstrative.

    -Development: Starts off with a strong demonstrative and creative. Over time learns HA, Role. Has the highest potential for DS self-supply or self-sustenance. The remaining functions don’t vary by a whole lot.

    Overall the accepting subtype is a more unbalanced type, strongly lacking in their DS and being very slightly better at their PoLR which they do not even value. Producing subtypes are more "ambiverted" and self-sustaining (=not necessarily needing their DS from someone else), therefore better adapted to different circumstances or situations, and often more "internally whole" (because of "boosted" DS etc).
    Last edited by Olimpia; 04-14-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Overall the accepting subtype is a more stable type. Producing subtypes have more pronounced weaknesses.
    Expansion on both of these points, please?

    How is Accepting more "stable"? Do you mean less conflicted from oneself on an individual basis? If you mean less neurotic, I don't think I agree. Creative assumes 'value' very early on, and HA is in opposition to Creative - so it seems if one favors HA >> Creative, the person is going to be an emotional mess.

    "Pronounced weaknesses" of Producing? I could see how Accepting > Producing to start since Producing's 'natural' functions are weaker, but given aging or maturity or strengthening are inevitable for 90% of humans (i.e. by ~30y/o people should have 'adapted'), I'd say Producing >> Accepting.

    I do like the bit about Accepting wanting/working towards DS more, and Producing wanting/working towards HA more. Coming from the Inert/Contact subtype system I believed it to be the other way around, but I can see this being true.

    I would also like some comments from anyone on the following: [in Accepting] "role "replacing" base" - perhaps this is what makes actual SJW INFJs? edit: Or maybe it's more because of Accepting's naturally strong and with time superior DS mastery. Maybe it's both really, I cannot get it out of my mind Si makes one more present and in-the moment since it reflects on it's own sensations - so when this Ni->Si replacing happens, I think this is [maybe] the initial impetus for action? Change of mind: Desire for DS provokes SJWing (action), but the impetus, the wish, starts in the base->role replacing? Keep in mind, this is about an Ni dom SJWing, nothing more.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is all very interesting. I can confirm the Accepting/PoLR/Unhealth thing myself, and I noticed it in a new acquaintance very distinctly recently; they confirmed they were not in good spirits recently when I asked. My heart breaks thinking about how I did not tell them why I asked, since I decided to out-of-nowhere clearly kill relations.

    edit: I'm not sure if I should for a moment un-kill relations to tell them their PoLR is a trap. They seem to have accepted their PoLR as part of themselves - "I'm this way because I had/have had to be" - so me telling them to let go of their PoLR, to act out their Creative, when I cannot hold their hand in any sense of the phrase, seems useless.
    Last edited by crAck; 07-11-2018 at 05:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Producing subtypes don't understand at all PoLR. It's like an aspect of reality that they are missing in their brains. So they need something to cover that absence; usually it is done with creative and the opposite sign IM of the same type that is in their HA (for example, in the case of LIE-Ni, they don't have +Si at all, but they cover it with +Ni creative and -Si that is in their HA).
    I work with an LIE-Ni, and he's always dressed well for business, until you look at his feet. Instead of wingtips, he's wearing sandals with dark fuzzy socks. He says it's because his feet perspire too much in leather shoes, but I think he's just Si-clueless.

    Despite this sartorial faux pas, he's actually very good at business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I work with an LIE-Ni, and he's always dressed well for business, until you look at his feet. Instead of wingtips, he's wearing sandals with dark fuzzy socks. He says it's because his feet perspire too much in leather shoes, but I think he's just Si-clueless.

    Despite this sartorial faux pas, he's actually very good at business.
    No, just no.

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