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Thread: + and - interpretation of functions

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    Default + and - interpretation of functions

    (experimental)


    Source material:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/entry.php/425-How-I-see-the-information-Elements-(part-2)
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-of-Model-B
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ctional-Revise
    ----------------------


    Feeling (energy)


    -Fi (base of ESI): attitude towards someone, like/dislike, love/hate in individual form, weighting the positives and negatives, sadness, trust, relation, bond, reciprocity, fairness/unfairness, respect, dignity, sympathy, kindness.


    +Fi (base of EII): motivation, love in universal form, right/wrong, punishment (as in, of a wrongdoing), internal emotion, pride, psychology, values, empathy, good, happiness.


    -Fe (base of ESE): acceptance, being mean to someone in order to better their situation, championing for your values in the external world, minimizing negative emotion, gossip, bluntness, shame, anger, objetivity, social ettiquette, protocol, persuasion.


    +Fe (base of EIE): emotional atmosphere, external emotion, maximizing emotion, interpretation, being kind to someone no matter their circumstances, manipulation, diplomacy, influence, mentoring, acceptance of someone without judging them.

    Thinking (matter)


    -Ti (base of LII): identity, equation, math, theory, trial, selection, program, system, analysis, diagnosis, duty.


    +Ti (base of LSI): distance, internal thought, internal consistency, physics, intructions, principles, rules, hierarchy, argument, ruthlessness.


    -Te (base of LIE): common sense logic, property, possesion, trade, cause-effect logic, external consistency, plan, use, economizing, priority, savings, efficiency.


    +Te (base of LSE): arrangement, management, order, task, coordination, rationale, operation (as in, of machinery), evidence, facts, expenditure.

    Intuition (time)


    -Ni (base of IEI) : idiosyncracy, rebellion, deviance, opportunity, choice, originality, instant thought, “knowing”, synthesis, instrospection, avoidance of danger.


    +Ni (base of ILI) :, development of something through time, analogic thought, foresight, observation, pattern recognition, strategy, big picture, dreams, convergence, detachment, seeing through, forecast, fate, karma, time, soul, God’s plan, chemistry.


    -Ne (base of IEE): potential, capability, improvisation, exploration, idealism, imagination, story, tale, randomness, reading people, individuality.


    +Ne (base of ILE): possibility, technology, research, search, figuring something out, vulnerability assesment, divergence, instant realization, correlation, learning, invention.

    Sensing (space)


    -Si (base of SLI): abstract sensing, biology, assistance, help, regeneration, rest, peace, instinct, basic bodily functions, bodily necessities, homeostasis, design, hygiene, accumulated experience via age and observation, being fit naturally.


    +Si (base of SEI): concrete sensing, kinesthesia, hedonism, tradition, pleasure, lust, perfectionism, aesthetics, grooming, attachment, comfort/discomfort, physical pain, accumulated experience via living, life, joy, harmony, clean (as in appareance), being fit via activity, loving your body and the sensations it produces, the here and now,


    -Se (base of SLE): control, attack, tease, torture, stab, kill, grab, break, squeeze, explode, maul, seize, take advantage, coerce, assertiveness.


    +Se (base of SEE): power, destruction, obliteration, defense, resist, withstand, push, repel, expel, pounce, pressure, implode, tactic, retaliation, territory, standing your ground, terrain, world.
    Last edited by mclane; 12-01-2016 at 11:46 PM. Reason: add

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    +Se (base of SEE): power, destruction, obliteration, defense, push, implode, tactic, retaliation, standing your ground, terrain.
    This just reinforces my belief that Trump is SEE.

    I have been playing around with the + - concepts for awhile but it never seems to go anywhere. I feel like "synthesis" should be listed for - Ni.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     





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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This just reinforces my belief that Trump is SEE.

    I have been playing around with the + - concepts for awhile but it never seems to go anywhere. I feel like "synthesis" should be listed for - Ni.
    This does not work only for the function as base. It could be, for example, his demonstrative.

    Added synthesis.

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    Yes

    +Fi (base of EII): motivation, love in universal form, right/wrong, punishment (as in, of a wrongdoing), internal emotion, psychology, values, empathy, good, happiness.

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    -Ni is the most accurate for me. None of the Si ones are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    -Ni is the most accurate for me. None of the Si ones are right.
    If you have alternative descriptions, please do provide them.

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    Here are SSS descriptions of + and - functions (N.B. they don't use static, dynamic etc):

    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...cii-so-znakami

    These are also SSS descriptions of + and - functions (I think they are fairly accurate):

    Sensing of forms (Si-): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
    Sensing of perceptions (Si+): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations
    Material space (Se-): strength, power, control
    Psychological (virtual) space (Se+): profit, benefit, gain
    Intuition of Time (Ni-): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
    Dynamics of actions (Ni+): topicality, timeliness, tendencies
    Ethical intuition (Ne-): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
    Object intuition (Ne+): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness
    Logic of learning or Logic of exploration (Ti-): system, regularity
    Logic of management or Logic of control (Ti+): right, rule
    Logic of processes (Te-): processes, technologies
    Logic of objects (Te+): things, objects
    Territorial ethics (Fi-): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
    Ethics of understanding (Fi+): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation
    Emotions of sensations (Fe-): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
    Emotions of events (Fe+): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary

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    Only Si- makes sense to me, by a whole lot.

    For the SSS descriptions, Ne+ is what i value most in myself. I just wish there were a single definition for each +\- functions without any inconsistencies... I really don't feel comfortable using them to type myself for this reason.

    SX-9 SP-4 SX-5



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    Sensing of forms (Si-): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
    Sensing of perceptions (Si+): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations

    ---I like and want both of these!

    Material space (Se-): strength, power, control
    Psychological (virtual) space (Se+): profit, benefit, gain

    ---Probably more Se+ than Se- although I can see some value in the Se- if it's more for yourself rather than it being using against people..

    Intuition of Time (Ni-): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
    Dynamics of actions (Ni+): topicality, timeliness, tendencies

    ----More Ni+ probably. I'm not a fatalist and I'm not I believe in 'destiny'

    Ethical intuition (Ne-): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
    Object intuition (Ne+): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness

    ----Maybe slightly more Ne- but I really like both!

    Logic of learning or Logic of exploration (Ti-): system, regularity
    Logic of management or Logic of control (Ti+): right, rule

    ----Definitely more Ti- here.

    Logic of processes (Te-): processes, technologies
    Logic of objects (Te+): things, objects

    ----Probably more Te- but not sure

    Territorial ethics (Fi-): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
    Ethics of understanding (Fi+): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation

    ----Fi+ !!


    Emotions of sensations (Fe-): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
    Emotions of events (Fe+): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary

    ---- Fe+ !! Fe- makes me uneasy





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    Quote Originally Posted by Chryssie View Post
    Only Si- makes sense to me, by a whole lot.

    For the SSS descriptions, Ne+ is what i value most in myself. I just wish there were a single definition for each +\- functions without any inconsistencies... I really don't feel comfortable using them to type myself for this reason.
    Well, we have Yermak's definitions of plus and minus. I think those are accurate. But we don't have perfect descriptions of plus and minus functions. This is because we don't agree on the definitions/descriptions of the functions or information aspects. Jung, mainstream Socionics, SSS, Berens/Nardi, and I use my own definitions of the functions... There are many different views.

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    Here's what I think about the various semantics that have been put out there.

    Model G signs seem accurate in some areas but not others.
    SSS is generally way too vague to make a judgment.

    But there are parts of your definitions that seem just not right. Duty should be for the LSI, potential and possibility should probably be the other way around as they are in Model G.
    Se: not sure why "destruction" is more SEE but otherwise most of the terms could go either way. Same with Fi, nothing stands out as being more for one than the other. Perhaps you could explain the reasoning behind it?
    "being mean to someone in order to better their situation, championing for your values in the external world" is not really ESE. Arguably the second one is more EIE actually, since Beta is the "activist" quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Duty should be for the LSI,
    Duty I'm not sure if it's +Ti or -Ti. I decided for -Ti because it's ESI's role, and they tend to be quite dutiful, but as per model B that could also be becasue of their +Ti in their DS.

    potential and possibility should probably be the other way around as they are in Model G
    Never seen these descriptions. Could you please provide a link?


    Se: not sure why "destruction" is more SEE but otherwise most of the terms could go either way.
    Both -Se and and +Se have to do with destruction, but +Se has more to do with the destruction of structures (-Ti PoLR of SEE). Utterly destroying something is +Se, -Se has the quality of damaging something, but not destroying it.

    Same with Fi, nothing stands out as being more for one than the other. Perhaps you could explain the reasoning behind it?
    Not sure how a difference cannot be perceived. +Fi and -Fi are quite different, both in reality and in the descriptions I've provided.



    "being mean to someone in order to better their situation, championing for your values in the external world" is not really ESE. Arguably the second one is more EIE actually, since Beta is the "activist" quadra.
    EIE's are all about people. Accepting people, riling up people. Not so much about values, that is the realm of +Fi/-Fe. EIE's champion by creating bonds thorugh their charisma, and tampering with people's emotions.

    Thanks for the feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Duty I'm not sure if it's +Ti or -Ti. I decided for -Ti because it's ESI's role, and they tend to be quite dutiful, but as per model B that could also be becasue of their +Ti in their DS.



    Never seen these descriptions. Could you please provide a link?
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=svm1qKGtxj0


    EIE's are all about people. Accepting people, riling up people. Not so much about values, that is the realm of +Fi/-Fe. EIE's champion by creating bonds thorugh their charisma, and tampering with people's emotions.
    I would agree that they are about people, but often their concern with people is as a vehicle for conveying and disseminating their values. ESEs, on the other hand, don't do that.

    Both -Se and and +Se have to do with destruction, but +Se has more to do with the destruction of structures (-Ti PoLR of SEE). Utterly destroying something is +Se, -Se has the quality of damaging something, but not destroying it.
    ok but I meant more an explanation in terms of how the types behave. Like are SEEs more likely to destroy stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    Let's see if I can spare an hour to watch this. Is there a summary somewhere?

    I would agree that they are about people, but often their concern with people is as a vehicle for conveying and disseminating their values. ESEs, on the other hand, don't do that.
    A very opinionated ESE is not a rare sight. That's what I mean.

    ok but I meant more an explanation in terms of how the types behave. Like are SEEs more likely to destroy stuff?
    SEE's are more likely to destroy something they don't like or doesn't match up to their expectations. Especially some structure that seems unfair to them. SLE's on the other hand are more likely to cause harm but not completely destroy something. Another good way to understand these interpretations is to look at the types that have it as their Activation function.

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    A good example of +Se (although fictional) would be this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0WaiRulyoY

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post

    Let's see if I can spare an hour to watch this. Is there a summary somewhere?
    There are some graphics floating around. Try the Model G Facebook group.

    SEE's are more likely to destroy something they don't like or doesn't match up to their expectations. Especially some structure that seems unfair to them. SLE's on the other hand are more likely to cause harm but not completely destroy something. Another good way to understand these interpretations is to look at the types that have it as their Activation function.
    I don't agree with that at all. "doesn't match up to their expectations" and "unfair" sound like Ti judgments. The way I see it is that SEEs are more likely to just ignore whatever structure gets in their way or seems inexpedient for whatever they are trying to do. SLEs are more likely to be conscious of the structure and/or consciously use it to their advantage, or conversely, to purposely destroy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    There are some graphics floating around. Try the Model G Facebook group.
    I don't agree with that at all. "doesn't match up to their expectations" and "unfair" sound like Ti judgments. The way I see it is that SEEs are more likely to just ignore whatever structure gets in their way or seems inexpedient for whatever they are trying to do. SLEs are more likely to be conscious of the structure and/or consciously use it to their advantage, or conversely, to purposely destroy it.
    They sound like +Ni and -Fi (respectively) to me. An example of a (possible) SEE seeing some structure they don't like and attempting to destroy it would be William Wallace in Braveheart. It's true that an SLE would maneuver better inside the structure, the SEE would not get involved with it or try to change it, instead opting to ignore it, or destroy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post

    Let's see if I can spare an hour to watch this. Is there a summary somewhere?



    A very opinionated ESE is not a rare sight. That's what I mean.



    SEE's are more likely to destroy something they don't like or doesn't match up to their expectations. Especially some structure that seems unfair to them. SLE's on the other hand are more likely to cause harm but not completely destroy something. Another good way to understand these interpretations is to look at the types that have it as their Activation function.
    I may agree with that SEE description

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    SSS is generally way too vague to make a judgment.
    .
    I agree with you that those descriptions are a bit vague, but SSS has actually defined their information elements. The problem is that I don't think they work. Te (P) is especially problematic.

    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    "being mean to someone in order to better their situation, championing for your values in the external world" is not really ESE. Arguably the second one is more EIE actually, since Beta is the "activist" quadra.
    I'm inclined to agree that EIEs are more ideological but the bias in seeing Alphas as benevolent needs to be thrown out of the window. ESE have greater F than EIE which makes them pushy and more involved than is normally thought off. EIE are introverts, ideals people.

    Individualist do possess "activism" but it comes off in individualist flavours, they don't do it for some grand ideological vision (as Collectivists) everything is attuned to their personal interests.

    The assertion that Alpha's are weak and virtually none influential in society seems more like Viktor Gulenko projection of his own inadequacy in influence as a basis for shared values he thinks folks in his quadra possesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Here are SSS descriptions of + and - functions (N.B. they don't use static, dynamic etc):

    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...cii-so-znakami

    These are also SSS descriptions of + and - functions (I think they are fairly accurate):

    Sensing of forms (Si-): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
    Sensing of perceptions (Si+): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations
    Material space (Se-): strength, power, control
    Psychological (virtual) space (Se+): profit, benefit, gain
    Intuition of Time (Ni-): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
    Dynamics of actions (Ni+): topicality, timeliness, tendencies
    Ethical intuition (Ne-): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
    Object intuition (Ne+): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness
    Logic of learning or Logic of exploration (Ti-): system, regularity
    Logic of management or Logic of control (Ti+): right, rule
    Logic of processes (Te-): processes, technologies
    Logic of objects (Te+): things, objects
    Territorial ethics (Fi-): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
    Ethics of understanding (Fi+): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation
    Emotions of sensations (Fe-): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
    Emotions of events (Fe+): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Here are SSS descriptions of + and - functions (N.B. they don't use static, dynamic etc):

    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...cii-so-znakami

    These are also SSS descriptions of + and - functions (I think they are fairly accurate):

    Sensing of forms (Si-): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
    Sensing of perceptions (Si+): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations
    Material space (Se-): strength, power, control
    Psychological (virtual) space (Se+): profit, benefit, gain
    Intuition of Time (Ni-): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
    Dynamics of actions (Ni+): topicality, timeliness, tendencies
    Ethical intuition (Ne-): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
    Object intuition (Ne+): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness
    Logic of learning or Logic of exploration (Ti-): system, regularity
    Logic of management or Logic of control (Ti+): right, rule
    Logic of processes (Te-): processes, technologies
    Logic of objects (Te+): things, objects
    Territorial ethics (Fi-): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
    Ethics of understanding (Fi+): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation
    Emotions of sensations (Fe-): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
    Emotions of events (Fe+): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary
    Again this is.... sooooo good

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    +Si (base of SEI): concrete sensing, kinesthesia, hedonism, tradition, pleasure, lust, perfectionism, aesthetics, grooming, attachment, comfort/discomfort, physical pain, accumulated experience via living, life, joy, harmony, clean (as in appareance), being fit via activity, loving your body and the sensations it produces, the here and now,

    -Ne (base of IEE): potential, capability, improvisation, exploration, idealism, imagination, story, tale, randomness, reading people, individuality.

    Yes, yes and yes

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    In SEE I'd associate Se with parallel structures (Fi) rather than destruction; generally i use Reinin though
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    According to my sources by Gulenko, there are a few "mistakes" in the overview by @mclane.

    "Corrections":

    -Fe: EIE
    +Fe: ESE
    -Te: LSE
    +Te: LIE
    -Ni: ILI
    +Ni: IEI
    -Se: SEI
    +Si: SLI

    I find Gulenko's current interpretation of +/- quite accurate.

    (The one @mclane provides seems to be the outdated one.)








    The types with the compatible Cognitive Styles share the same +/- modalities.

    -Fe, -Ni, -Si, -Te, +Fi, +Ne, +Se, +Te:
    EIE, LSI, EII, LSE, SEE, ILI, ILE, SEI

    +Fe, +Ni, +Si, +Te, -Fi, -Ne, -Se, -Te:
    IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, IEE, SLI, LII, ESE
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    Under Gulenko (and Yermak, which is the rendition displayed by SSS), duals and people within the same quadra are listed as having opposite signage (i.e. SLI has -Si and IEE and EII +Si, which shouldn't happen IMO) (inconsistency within quadras is nonsensical) -- however, his assessment of the general nature of the IEs is accurate I think, if you just apply each leading function he describes to the type's entire quadra in a valued functional expression sense. It's just that, technically dual types should have opposite capability/strength of the IEs, so in a way it does make sense that you can say things like SEE has stronger -Ti than +Ti while ILI would have stronger +Ti than -Ti and that's probably the logic the Gulenko/Yermak versions follow. (I think this accounts for any disorganization of ideas or confusion @Cassandra @mclane .)

    Overall, Model B aka Bukalov's rendition presents the information in a more consistent way as in the way of valued signed IEs. You just need to switch those of the "duals" around of the SSS/Gulenko/Yermak versions to apply them to the Model B one in a valued sense for the types.

    I agree with many of your descriptors with just some being ambiguous or iffy to me, as some others have given criticism and explanation for already.

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    Mh yeah those don't seem too clean-cut as a whole idk

    Nevertheless, HUGE preference of -Ne over +Ne, I relate to every word. +Ne has lowkey and thrown into it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    According to my sources by Gulenko, there are a few "mistakes" in the overview by @mclane.

    "Corrections":

    -Fe: EIE
    +Fe: ESE
    -Te: LSE
    +Te: LIE
    -Ni: ILI
    +Ni: IEI
    -Se: SEI
    +Si: SLI

    I find Gulenko's current interpretation of +/- quite accurate.

    (The one @mclane provides seems to be the outdated one.)








    The types with the compatible Cognitive Styles share the same +/- modalities.

    -Fe, -Ni, -Si, -Te, +Fi, +Ne, +Se, +Te:
    EIE, LSI, EII, LSE, SEE, ILI, ILE, SEI

    +Fe, +Ni, +Si, +Te, -Fi, -Ne, -Se, -Te:
    IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, IEE, SLI, LII, ESE
    Gulenko can go suck hobo cock. I've been testing these definitions for years. You won't see them anywhere else because I came up with them (although I did take inspiration from hitta and tcaud). Whatever you choose to call these doesn't matter, the thing is that they can be referred to by their commonality. One is a process element (+), and the other is a result element (-), they are shared between members of the same quadra. Example: Gamma is -Fi +Se +Ni and -Te. Now, thanks to hitta's interpretation of model B, I know that they are also shared by other quadras. For example, a LIE and an EII have an analogically identical creative (-Ne/+Ni) and HA (-Si+Se). SEE and SLI would share the same base (+Se/-Si) and DS (-Ne/+Ni) , and so on.

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