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Thread: An Outlandish Request

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Default An Outlandish Request

    We all know that socionics originally came from Russia. And it's been mostly translated by robots, then fixed by humans. Yet I suspect it's still mostly word-for-word translation. And if it were to be translated from English into another language, it would be like running a word through Google translate a couple of times. And while that's good for a laugh, it could end up being very misleading.

    So what I'm asking for is a cohesive, preferably-concise description/explanation of what makes each of the eight primary dichotomies different from their counterparts. Or what makes the people with those dichotomies different from those who have the other one. (I call this an outlandish request because this seems to be something people have argued about for over a decade and which hasn't been settled.)

    When I try explaining the dichotomies, I end up rambling.
    I know MBTI has stuff like this, but we know how evil MBTI is, so let's not degrade ourselves with any of that.

    And I intend to use what I'm given to help translate the dichotomies. So if any of the multilinguals here have already translated them based on their intended meaning, please give me the words so I can start a collection.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-7
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    per aspera ad astra Chae's Avatar
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    I don't get the exact link between the first paragraph and the second one, what do you mean?

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    I don't get the exact link between the first paragraph and the second one, what do you mean?
    That I want some descriptions that could be used for foreigners so they'll say, "Oh, you mean [native word]," rather than telling them the English word and having them take it to mean whatever the closest translation is to that in their language.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-7
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    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    We all know that socionics originally came from Russia.
    from USSR, region of Lithuanian Republic

    > Yet I suspect it's still mostly word-for-word translation

    From what I've seen, texts have incorrectly translated things, not just weird language. From this point, good sources are Filatova's book and sites maintened by people with good levels of both languages: socioniko.net, wikisocion, ... Socionics is Jung's typology which has professionally translated texts, plus MBT with good dichotomies description.
    I'll mention additional problem - what is translated. As there is a lot of baseless bs with doubtful relation to normal socionics. The example is Reinin's dichotomies, subtypes, etc.

    You may to find emmigrants from USSR territory on forums. They generally know both languages on good level.

    > And if it were to be translated from English into another language, it would be like running a word through Google translate a couple of times.

    Not so badly. I've mentioned relatively good sources in English. Also socioniko.net had sections in different languages.

    > I know MBTI has stuff like this, but we know how evil MBTI is, so let's not degrade ourselves with any of that.

    Evil is ignoring that MBT is same typology.. with partly good texts.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I dug up the old list I used when I first learned socionics. It can be a starting place, I guess, since one hasn't been offered yet. And I crossed out the part I'm skeptical of. Would you do the same? Maybe replace some?

    Extroverts:
     Are interested in what is happening around them.
     Are open and often talkative.
     Compare their own opinions with the opinions of others.
     Like action and initiative.
     Easily make new friends or adapt to a new group.
     Say what they think.
     Are interested in new people.
     Easily break unwanted relationships.

    Introverts:
     Are interested in their own thoughts and feelings.
     Need to have own territory.
     Often appear reserved, quiet and thoughtful.
     Usually do not have many friends.
     Have difficulties in making new contacts.
     Like concentration and quiet.
     Do not like unexpected visits and therefore do not make them.
     Works well alone.

    Sensing:
     See everyone and sense everything.
     Live in the here and now.
     Quickly adapt to any situation.
     Like pleasures based on physical sensation.
     Are practical and active.
     Are realistic and self-confident.

    Intuitive:
     Are mostly in the past or in the future.
     Worry about the future more than the present.
     Are interested in everything new and unusual.
     Do not like routine.
     Are attracted more to the theory than the practice.
     Often have doubts.

    Thinking:
     Are interested in systems, structures, and patterns.
     Expose everything to logical analysis.
     Are relatively cold and unemotional.
     Evaluate things by intellect and right or wrong.
     Have difficulties talking about feelings.
    Do not like to clear up arguments or quarrels.

    Feeling:
    ╚ Are interested in people and their feelings.
    ╚ Easily pass their own moods to others.
    ╚ Pay great attention to love and passion.
    ╚ Evaluate things by ethics and good or bad.
    ╚ Can be touchy or use emotional manipulation.
    ╚ Often give compliments to please people.

    Judging:
     Do not like to leave unanswered questions.
     Plan work ahead and try to finish it.
     Do not like to change their decisions.
     Have relatively stable workability.
     Easily follow rules and discipline.

    Perceiving:
     Act impulsively following the situation.
     Can start many things at once without finishing them properly.
     Prefer to have freedom from obligations.
     Are curious and like a fresh look at things.
     Work productivity depends on their mood.
     Often act without any preparation.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-7
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  6. #6
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    I don't think there should be translation issues if you don't translate them by machine. I do think we should get better translations from the Russian before we translate into anything else first, however.

    Also, MBTI is not the same typology at all, they're just derived from the same source, like how Russian and Polish both come from Proto-Slavic. Or do you think Russian and Polish are the same?
    'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I do think we should get better translations from the Russian before we translate into anything else first, however.
    I just want the dichotomy names translated, and thus the type titles.
    In a language that shoves words together into long words, "logical sensory extrovert" would sound more prestigious. Or more nutty.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-7
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    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  8. #8
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    I think socionics has already been translated into most major world languages. This is what the long words look like in everyone's (unrightful) main long word language, for instance. I don't think we have people here who are fluent in Navajo or Ainu or whatever, and most of those people are bilingual in major world languages anyways.

    (Also, if you're curious, run that first page I entered through Google translate. It's already pretty different than what most English socionics sites say, and everyone fights me tooth and nail over using exactly the commonly-accepted English definitions of everything.)
    'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I thought, "Yay! "
    ...then I realized most of the words are almost identical to the English version.
    Still, the function names are good enough to start my collection. Have any more languages?

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-7
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I think the biggest problem with most such lists is they haven't fully separated Jung's interpretations from the modern definitions. There's nothing "wrong" with either, just that they do have their differences. I do use Jung's ideas interchangeably with the modern oneswhen I think they really have no business being different

    But.basically, the thing about I/E being about "inner world" vs "outer world" is one of the more loaded, problematic places to translate from Jung to the modern. For one thing, Jung's introverts were oriented, roughly, by their minds as opposed to sensations/the outer, to the point where his introvert-extravert dichotomy sometimes overlapped near indistinguishably with intuition/sensation. In fact, I sometimes conjecture this was in part related to Jung's own change of type from T+S to T+N for himself -- I'm not sure his Si portrait is the most realistic description of a sensation type, possibly because he intended it to describe himself at the time (in his system, he'd have thought himself to have had "aux Si" as an introverted T+S).
    I believe in modern theories, these things are more separated out, and Ne is no longer really something I'd described as involving people focused on things going on "around them" -- that would probably have been truer to Jung's portrait of the extraverted intuitive. I think the modification of i/e to relations/objects is probably the way to go for socionics, as compared to the whole "focused on the external" vs "focused on own thoughts and feelings."
    In a way, it leads one to a more information-processing focus and less of a personality focus, but that's fine.

    T in Jung vs T in socionics is different in practice even if similar in spirit, and in some sense I'd say T in socionics is more expressly logic focused. Obviously people use "logic, reason, thinking" in similar senses, but when it comes to socionics it's kind of important to know the differences.

    Basically I went into these comparisons because the "main dichotomies" originated in Jungian stuff, and usually the modern theories seem to focus on the function-attitudes/information elements

    The social elements of the E/I dichotomy are found in/emphasized in trait theories like the Big 5. There's an overlap between this and the people Jung called his introverts/extraverts, but in MBTI dichotomies terms, Jung's introverts were more "IN" than just "I", and his extraverts were portrayed more "ES" than "E" alone.

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