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Thread: The Workaholic Gamma Quadrant

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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Default The Workaholic Gamma Quadrant

    That is not how I'd describe it at all. I can't decide which of the non-Delta quadras has the worst description, but at least you're not fascist theocratic Klingons or whatever.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    Last edited by Verbrannte; 10-07-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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    totalize's Avatar
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    Why do so many people dislike Strati? I agree the writing style is kinda pushy but what specifically is wrong about it?

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    I actually like her style, just a bit negative but over all quite informative
    Sylvia Plath — 'I desire the things which will destroy me in the end.'
    IEI 4w5

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    Why do so many people dislike Strati?
    they dislike her yellow-paper style socionics texts

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    per aspera ad astra Chae's Avatar
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    Got no major negative criticism for her, actually. The style keeps me on my toes, there is passion.

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    These threads remind me of the kiddies on the MBTI forums bitching about "stereotypes." I'll never understand the Fe-valuer's fetish for letting supposed stupidity "speak for itself" instead of just explaining what it is that you take issue to. It's arrogant, condescending, and shows exactly how few fucks you really give about factual accuracy. You're not concerned about what's right, you're concerned about who's right.



    Also we all know Socionics itself is just a hypothesis that science will never verify. For all their flaws, at least these descriptions are giving us hypotheses in the positive that we can build upon. You have a problem with these theories? Then be scientific about it. Falsify them or fuck off.


    Just because something sounds retarded doesn't mean it is. We used to think it was retarded to say the Earth orbited the Sun, because we saw the Sun moving in the sky and not the other way around. Unless you prefer to live in the dark ages.

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    casual determinist troubadour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
    These threads remind me of the kiddies on the MBTI forums bitching about "stereotypes." I'll never understand the Fe-valuer's fetish for letting supposed stupidity "speak for itself" instead of just explaining what it is that you take issue to. It's arrogant, condescending, and shows exactly how few fucks you really give about factual accuracy. You're not concerned about what's right, you're concerned about who's right.



    Also we all know Socionics itself is just a hypothesis that science will never verify. For all their flaws, at least these descriptions are giving us hypotheses in the positive that we can build upon. You have a problem with these theories? Then be scientific about it. Falsify them or fuck off.


    Just because something sounds retarded doesn't mean it is. We used to think it was retarded to say the Earth orbited the Sun, because we saw the Sun moving in the sky and not the other way around. Unless you prefer to live in the dark ages.
    “As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naïve and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.” — Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    *Hilarious Whose Line reference*
    I liked your post but I actually agree with Alioth, if you disagree with something it's informative to know why.

    But what do I know I'm just an Alpha Chatterbox yada yada yada.
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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
    These threads remind me of the kiddies on the MBTI forums bitching about "stereotypes." I'll never understand the Fe-valuer's fetish for letting supposed stupidity "speak for itself" instead of just explaining what it is that you take issue to. It's arrogant, condescending, and shows exactly how few fucks you really give about factual accuracy. You're not concerned about what's right, you're concerned about who's right.



    Also we all know Socionics itself is just a hypothesis that science will never verify. For all their flaws, at least these descriptions are giving us hypotheses in the positive that we can build upon. You have a problem with these theories? Then be scientific about it. Falsify them or fuck off.


    Just because something sounds retarded doesn't mean it is. We used to think it was retarded to say the Earth orbited the Sun, because we saw the Sun moving in the sky and not the other way around. Unless you prefer to live in the dark ages.
    I just think these articles sound funny and it's fun to discuss them. As to falsifying things, I'm working on that right now with some other people. Well, primarily, I'm trying to prove hypothesis that I think are true, but that would make these false by necessity.
    'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
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    casual determinist troubadour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I liked your post but I actually agree with Alioth, if you disagree with something it's informative to know why.

    But what do I know I'm just an Alpha Chatterbox yada yada yada.
    i saw the opportunity and i seized it. (big Whose Line fan)

    anyways—i can see Alioth's point, although i wouldn't have worded it quite so harshly. it's not that big of a deal to me honestly, it's a casual discussion we're having here. if someone was presenting a formal thesis, then yes, i can understand being frustrated. also, poor delivery (or "sounding retarded") is a valid criticism, i think. i'm sensing a quadra value conflict here, especially if Alioth is Alpha, too.

    just my obviously superior humble Delta opinion, though.
    “As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naïve and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.” — Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    i saw the opportunity and i seized it. (big Whose Line fan)
    Every opportunity to meme is well worth taking.


    anyways—i can see Alioth's point, although i wouldn't have worded it quite so harshly. it's not that big of a deal to me honestly, it's a casual discussion we're having here. if someone was presenting a formal thesis, then yes, i can understand being frustrated. also, poor delivery (or "sounding retarded") is a valid criticism, i think.
    What if you spent months of research compiling info for a paper like that, then your detractors just laughed in your face and stomped the essay into the dust instead of critiquing it on its own terms? You have to admit that's pretty unfair. Any masterpiece such as that mentioned in the OP deserves a far higher quality of criticism than smug kneejerk rejection. Especially if the detractor is so lacking in perspective that he interprets a subjective description literally.

    The funny thing is that I've had this issue with EIEs before. I describe a trend or a tendency. They assume I'm describing a literal phenomenon that always happens the exact same way. They say I'm grossly exaggerating and use these exaggerations as a basis for a string of ad-hominems. I get angry. I leave looking like the idiot, even though I actually understood what was going on, rather than assuming that every idea that seems ridiculous on the surface is in itself impossible.


    i'm sensing a quadra value conflict here, especially if Alioth is Alpha, too.

    just my obviously superior humble Delta opinion, though.
    Still don't see where you're getting Ti/Fe from, but I suppose that's a question for elsewhere.

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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    OK, I'll be more careful with my delivery next time so I don't accidentally cause whatever I've caused here. I just wanted to show people and possibly spark discussion over something I found entertaining, not give an analysis of every point I disagreed with in the articles. Probably the clearest evidence against these articles is if you look at famous people who have been given types in each of the quadras (e.g. Einstein in Alpha, Goethe in Beta), but maybe not everyone has already done that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
    Every opportunity to meme is well worth taking.
    “As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naïve and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.” — Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    @Alioth Are you saying that I think every idea that seems ridiculous on the surface is impossible? Well, I mean, you are, but that's a bad assumption to make just because you're irritated at me. I'll go list out my generalized complaints about these articles somewhere else if you really want.
    I didn't mean to imply that you personally went about every situation that way, only that you seemed to be in this case.

    Sorry for apparently destroying your thread, because I noticed you felt the need to mention me now instead of replying to me earlier even though I've seen your profile status as "active" throughout the day.


    I don't think these are masterpieces because they're generally so far removed from my observations of reality that I have no idea where he got these from, and then the writing style just seems sort of bad.
    I recall reading that quasiidenticals can't appreciate each other's writings. If Stratiy was indeed IEE, that would hit the nail on the head for this scenario.

    I noticed the Deltan description covered more of the desires and motivations of people within this quadra (which can come off as a portrayal of members of this quadra if not interpreted carefully, a mistake I believe was made) while the Beta article focused more on behaviors and social structure. I'd agree with @hag's opinion that the Delta description was meant to describe what Deltans want and see in themselves rather than what they actually are -- which is going to come off as conceited and offensive to members of other quadra no matter what.

    There could've been any number of factual inaccuracies in the other descriptions, but they probably could've been avoided had they been written by their own members respectively, and had they described their motivations rather than dealing with behaviors or social structures.

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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Oh, earlier I was on mobile and didn't even see that you had posted the other thing. I think also that I've had this on in the background caused the green light to be on even if I wasn't actually actively doing anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
    I noticed the Deltan description covered more of the desires and motivations of people within this quadra (which can come off as a portrayal of members of this quadra if not interpreted carefully, a mistake I believe was made) while the Beta article focused more on behaviors and social structure.
    Yeah I think the beta descriptions are the ones I have the hardest time reconciling or sympathising with. But I had just assumed it's cos I was scared of and so didn't understand it.

    I do feel like many Gamma people really dislike not being able to do something they want to do. And have a strong internal push to be competent at things. Am I wrong about this?

    As an alpha I sometimes like the idea of knowing how stuff works and how to manipulate it, but I don't really have any drive for it. I do dislike when everyone is quiet or I'm in a discussion and I can't think of things to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I do feel like many Gamma people really dislike not being able to do something they want to do. And have a strong internal push to be competent at things.
    Dead-on summary of my life.
    Can't speak for other Gamma types though, but what I hypothesise is that the Gamma SFs are more about being able to do what they like while the NTs are the competence animals. Fi wants authentic fulfilment that matches one's values and Te needs the accuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Dead-on summary of my life.
    #justgammathings

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    #justgammathings
    Where are the photoshop wizards, we need memes of that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Where are the photoshop wizards, we need memes of that!
    i was feeling inspired



     
    “As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naïve and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.” — Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    i was feeling inspired



     
    I am officially #Impr€$$€d! The second version is really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    Why do so many people dislike Strati? I agree the writing style is kinda pushy but what specifically is wrong about it?
    I think she's too literal with Ni (literally it's time management, which I think is short term), but her writing creates vivid and distinct images which are very helpful if you contemplate them and absolutely misleading if you take them at face value

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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Yes, that's the problem, there's such a high potential for people to take this at face value (see: astrology Sun signs, MBTI, Enneagram, etc.). It doesn't matter what she intended, it matters what people will read.
    'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

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    I totally forgot I had read that before I got to the part where she rips LIEs a new one

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    Why do so many people dislike Strati? I agree the writing style is kinda pushy but what specifically is wrong about it?
    in instance of the quadra complexes: it isn't so much what was being described, but how it was described.

    it makes alphas sound like spineless, emotionally volatile hooligans who don't know when to shut up. arrogant, big-mouthed morons who are unable to stand up for themselves unless they've got a whole army backing them up, and they won't shut the fuck up until everyone takes their side, including that dog over there in the corner. see: entitled 5 year old brat throwing a tantrum. i couldn't help but envision the evil hell-spawn of the real housewives of whatever and jersey shore when reading the profile.

    betas sound like status-hungry, self-masturbatory sociopathic cavepeople who hold weekly virgin sacrifices to soothe their ginormous broken egos and to stealthily draw attention away from their complete and utter lack of real character and accomplishments. mindless drones who talk about doing everything but in reality they do nothing... except talk. a shining exemplar of the i-bought-an-expensive-car-to-compensate-for-my-small-dick prototype. projection, anyone?

    deltas sound like self-absorbed, emotionally manipulative loners who run around in la-la land pushing everyone's buttons, erroneously hypocritical insofar that they incessantly whine and cry if you even attempt to do the same to them. status-seeking control freaks searching for victims to dictate and boss around, all the while being a slave to their insatiable desire for recognition for... well, nothing. when meeting a delta, make sure to list your accomplishments before stating your name.

    gammas sound like self-serving, cheese-chasing, antisocial robots who are prepared to beat the living shit out of anyone, for anything, at the drop of a dime. neurotic workhorses seething with feelings of hatred and vengeance. nobody actually likes them but they keep 'em around anyway to do all their dirty work. NTs manipulate the living fuck out of their SF counterparts until they become sad, empty shelves of their former selves, so not only do other quadras dislike them, they dislike each other!

    i'm not saying it was all wrong but it was woefully exaggerated. it didn't feel like a realistic depiction of each individual quadra's shortcomings, just a depressingly negative one. my skin was crawling by the end of it. does this alpha dynamic strike fear into you?

    "i think if it weren't for that horrible mouth of yours then some people not me of course but i think some people would find you somewhat kind of attractive in a furry little animal sort of way"

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    Why do so many people dislike Strati? I agree the writing style is kinda pushy but what specifically is wrong about it?
    The ESI+LIE duality for example, sounds like it is written by someone who had a LIE child with ADD, as if the ESI has to be some sort of mother to the naughty child, while duality is not like that at all, they complete eachother, not one sided. She had a story as an example in mind and in the description was basically justifying that story. I saw many times sentences like : "if LIE does this bad thing, ESI will leave and never look back". "mending relations will be impossible" as if ESI is constantly sulking for some reason. My EII sister also has a poor understanding of ESI nature and duality, maybe stratiyevskaya is EII

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