Chae's V.I

[Joy]

Well, let's ask her. @Joy your reasoning on 2D or 4D Fe for me is needed

I do think EIE is possible. Like I said, if not LIE, then an ethical type. I've been meaning to go back over your answers more thoroughly, but I've got a bunch of crap going on right now. ugh

[darya]

Let me clarify a little, this may be a confusing point. Fe valuers (and especially Fe rational types) expect a kind of constant line of communication to be open. "being present", giving someone attention, the overall intention here has more to do with the interactional, dynamic quality of the relationship. Fi valuers may care more about the underlying status of the relationship but actually tend to neglect expressing it externally at times. The whole stereotype of the "overattached girlfriend", the smothering / clingy SO who wants to know where you are every second of the day -- this is really an Fe leading archetype.

While your general distinction of Fe and Fi sounds correct, many overly attached girlfriends are actually Fi creatives. Fe leading girls can be more of a proud diva type that want constant adoration and attention of their SO's (and are certainly needy in this sense). They can be very loving and good with compliments/pampering, but it comes with a price. Fi creatives (some of them) are the ones that go head through the wall, no shame clingy like a sick puppy dog.

[Exodus]

While your general distinction of Fe and Fi sounds correct, many overly attached girlfriends are actually Fi creatives. Fe leading girls can be more of a proud diva type that want constant adoration and attention of their SO's (and are certainly needy in this sense). They can be very loving and good with compliments/pampering, but it comes with a price. Fi creatives (some of them) are the ones that go head through the wall, no shame clingy like a sick puppy dog.

Well, I haven't personally seen that. I would expect it to be more common with Fi leading types. Usually Fi creatives are rather independent and loose in their expectations of others.

[darya]

Well, I haven't personally seen that. I would expect it to be more common with Fi leading types. Usually Fi creatives are rather independent and loose in their expectations of others.

Fi leads are very loyal and thus attached (sticking through thick and thin once they're in), but not clingy and needy (they're more likely to give too much). Maybe we have different definitions of clingy, cause Fe leads can certainly be controlling and micro-managing about their SO and relationship (they're image conscious and want to be adored in the right way and for a relationship to be "perfect", whatever their personal definition of perfect is - so they can certainly constantly call SO's and check on them for example). But the crazy overly attached girlfriend sounds like some Borderline Fi-creative messy type to me. SEE's and IEE's can certainly be obssessed and not at all independent once they zero in on someone (that's one particular variety - you have a independent, player type as well). As I said, maybe we're just imagining a different type of person under "overly-attached".

[maniac]

While your general distinction of Fe and Fi sounds correct, many overly attached girlfriends are actually SX FIRST

correction

[darya]

correction

oh thanks, the smart one

[maniac]

oh thanks, the smart one

you're welcome

[darya]

you're welcome

Your thought process is so complex, your replies and reasonings are always a revelation. So sincerely thanks in the name of whole 16types for your contributions.

[maniac]

Your thought process is so complex, your replies and reasonings are always a revelation. So sincerely thanks in the name of whole 16types for your contributions.

you're welcome, you clearly need it

[Chae]

Wherever I am, a fundamental debate emerges on here - how can we interpret that with Socionics?

[maniac]

Wherever I am, a fundamental debate emerges on here - how can we interpret that with Socionics?

Idk but I doubt you're an ethical type, you're not emotional in general imo. You are positive but not emotional. And you're really good at explaining things logically and understanding others arguments, and do not have an emotional reaction to them when it clashes with yours..

[Chae]

Idk but I doubt you're an ethical type, you're not emotional in general imo. You are positive but not emotional. And you're really good at explaining things logically and understanding others arguments, and do not have an emotional reaction to them when it clashes with yours..

Hm... how do you define "emotional"? In my eyes, emotional in a sense of showing one's inner feelings on the outside does not equal ethical. Ethicalness deals with knowing the difference between right and wrong (Fi), happy or unhappy (Fe), and being able to manipulate that.
As for arguments, I control how I want to come across. In most cases, that's "diplomatic" because I know that my agitated self hurts everybody (that could point to EIE). Also, it's not appropriate, an actual emotional reaction is needed when there's something at stake. When I'm diplomatic I will neither offend nor lose someone's possible compliance. To some extent, it's a question of maturity and Ni strategy.

[Chae]

I don't know where did you get the notion that LIIs are any of these things. They can be, seeing as this is their idealised self, but it depends on maturity and development, both mental and emotional. Being like you described is their goal, not a description of the type. Any other type can be all these things too.

Well if that's how you come off in real life then you're doing a good job of acting totally different in this forum. And didn't I say you were Fi? That's how LIIs come at people in real life, I have my fair share of experiences with them, hence why I said before we usually hate each other. Honestly, it seems you have a mainly theoretical and idealised vision of the types, with little real life application. Which is yet another sign of high Ne, seeing people as ideas and concepts, and then constantly trying to fit them into your personalized system, which is Ti. I even accused you of doing that before, remember? There's no way you are an Ethical type, because that's the area you have to work on.

You are a SX/SP 3, so that really makes up for a weak Se when it comes to assertiveness and general confidence. But I noticed very early on the GD thread and then on the BTS one, that while you have a fascination with Se, you can't easily tell it apart from other functions or from Enneagram types. You thought Jiyong was SEE , thought Kai was EIE and Taemin IEI, that Chaerin was SEI and Bom IEE. You love Se and Ni and wish you could grasp it, but they elude you. Maybe that's exactly why you like them so much: because you don't really get them.

If you're not LII, then ILE, but I don't really see it.

I could pull quotes from your q&a, but it'll include so much of it'd be redundant. But I think our interactions so far (and specially our clashes) are very illustrative of how differently we see things in the social area. Also, vide the quote I posted earlier: You hate rules and regulations because they remind you you are not truly free, and also because you think it should be a given how people should act.

So there''s no dignity in pop for you. Oh here you go again with the childhood psychology thing...but you did admit it yourself in your V.I. thread. That's how you explain things to yourself.

There we go, so, I get what you mean. But. What I mentioned earlier, considering ILE as my type, I found in your description: "seeing people as ideas and concepts, and then constantly trying to fit them into your personalized system, which is Ti". Ne first, Ti second. Ethical shortcoming --> Fi vulnerable instead or role.

3w4, competitive and whiny narcissist (my polemic, not Naranjo's), is my definite typing but that is not really applicable to LII-Ne. 3w4 --> ILE-Ne, EIE-Ni, LIE, SEE-Se, LSE-Te, SLE-Ti, IEI-Fe. I am image-conscious and oriented toward success, that's why I keep a tight grip on how I come across, that can be anything out of 1001 personae. That's also why I can't really see your point of me being an introtim. Why redundant?

[LuckyOne]

There we go, so, I get what you mean. But. What I mentioned earlier, considering ILE as my type, I found in your description: "seeing people as ideas and concepts, and then constantly trying to fit them into your personalized system, which is Ti". Ne first, Ti second. Ethical shortcoming --> Fi vulnerable instead or role.

3w4, competitive and whiny narcissist (my polemic, not Naranjo's), is my definite typing but that is not really applicable to LII-Ne. 3w4 --> ILE-Ne, EIE-Ni, LIE, SEE-Se, LSE-Te, SLE-Ti, IEI-Fe. I am image-conscious and oriented toward success, that's why I keep a tight grip on how I come across, that can be anything out of 1001 personae. That's also why I can't really see your point of me being an introtim. Why redundant?

Then you are an ILE projecting an LII image because somehow, that looks more ideal to you. It's not a case of a natural resemblance, this I am certain. It's purposeful, even if unconscious. Your description of LII backs this theory up. The Ne first Ti second fits, it's the other two functions I'm unsure about. But hey, you know yourself, right?

I'm not gonna waste my time explaining yet again why Enneagram and Socionics correspondence is bullshit. I've said it once, I've said it twice, enough. You'll clearly cling to this idea to the end because as a Ti ego you need to make sense of everything and since that something is foreign to you (human psyche and Ethics), you do that by clinging to charts and correspondence tables. You do the same thing with your psychological theories, you use then to explain everything/everyone. I'm not going to change your mind, so I'll drop the typing issue.

That was just my two cents on the subject.

[Chae]

Then you are an ILE projecting an LII image because somehow, that looks more ideal to you. It's not a case of a natural resemblance, this I am certain. It's purposeful, even if unconscious. Your description of LII backs this theory up. The Ne first Ti second fits, it's the other two functions I'm unsure about. But hey, you know yourself, right?

I'm not gonna waste my time explaining yet again why Enneagram and Socionics correspondence is bullshit. I've said it once, I've said it twice, enough. You'll clearly cling to this idea to the end because as a Ti ego you need to make sense of everything and since that something that is foreign to you (human psyche and Ethics), you do that by clinging to charts and correspondence tables. You do the same thing with your psychological theories, you use then to explain everything/everyone. I'm not going to change your mind, so I'll drop the typing issue.

That was just my two cents on the subject.

Good, your decision, thank you anyway :3 I will cling to anything I believe in with a steely mindset unless there is something more differentiated actually, that's why I ask for elaboration. As in, challenging to improve the result. In the other member typing thread, I've been suggested Ni ego on the base of cognitive style so there will be more input in the future about my type. Concerning your typing, if I am LII are you indeed SEE then because the conflict atmosphere is rising againnn Kidding, I'm half through your 80Q actually; stay tuned

[LuckyOne]

Good, your decision, thank you anyway :3 I will cling to anything I believe in with a steely mindset unless there is something more differentiated actually, that's why I ask for elaboration. As in, challenging to improve the result. In the other member typing thread, I've been suggested Ni ego on the base of cognitive style so there will be more input in the future about my type. Concerning your typing, if I am LII are you indeed SEE then because the conflict atmosphere is rising againnn Kidding, I'm half through your 80Q actually; stay tuned

I chose the term 'cling' with care, because there are other modalities of sticking to your guns. It's precisely your (mis)use of Ne that it's standing in the way of finding your type. Nothing sounds good enough for you to stick with it, because there will always be a more promising possibility.
Why settle for a type you don't favor or think you fill the shoes of, when you can continue to speculate? That way no type is out of your grasp, and it's fun. The mere fact that you call "improving the result" makes your mind's true intentions crystal clear.

Is it an Se thing?




Love you and will be waiting.

[Chae]

I chose the term 'cling' with care, because there are other modalities of sticking to your guns. It's precisely your (mis)use of Ne that it's standing in the way of finding your type. Nothing sounds good enough for you to stick with it, because there will always be a more promising possibility.
Why settle for a type you don't favor or think you fill the shoes of, when you can continue to speculate? That way no type is out of your grasp, and it's fun. The mere fact that you call "improving the result" makes your mind's true intentions crystal clear.

Is it an Se thing?




Love you and will be waiting.

So, case in point for ILE? Because earlier we had the same discussion about EIE here, that I take on different roles just for the sake of it. So many.... Ne possibilities.

Mhm right, I don't want to fit into one description. Yes, it's fun indeed My personality has too many facets. On the other hand, I want to explain my own behaviour with it. That's difficult.

Yes definitely, and your menacing e8 is also always vibing through like wow, what did I do to be treated like a sparring partner!! I'm not a threat unless you insult Jimin.

Chuuu~ Right back at you.

[LuckyOne]

So, case in point for ILE? Because earlier we had the same discussion about EIE here, that I take on different roles just for the sake of it. So many.... Ne possibilities.

Mhm right, I don't want to fit into one description. Yes, it's fun indeed My personality has too many facets. On the other hand, I want to explain my own behaviour with it. That's difficult.

Yes definitely, and your menacing e8 is also always vibing through like wow, what did I do to be treated like a sparring partner!! I'm not a threat unless you insult Jimin.

Chuuu~ Right back at you.

How can anyone argue EIE for you when there's no Fe or Ni in sight is beyond me. And Beta, seriously?

I've already brought up evidence, but this seems fitting:

Introverted Logic (Ti) -The ILE is typically a "big picture" kind of person, and tends to speak in generalizations about both people and things, omitting any details he deems mundane or uninteresting. He is acutely aware of what interests and what bores him. This leads him to always search for novelty and surprising things. At any given moment, the ILE usually has a number of projects and/or skills that he is working on developing, and stays with these interests as long as he feels they have potential for growth. The ILE gets bored easily with rote tasks that do involve lots of repetition and little innovation, although he tolerates them if they are necessary to succeed in society.

The ILE is a creative thinker, and enjoys discussing his often unusual perspectives with others. These will often be expressed through unique and strange (but effective) analogies.


The ILE is constantly aware of the possibilities inherent in social, natural or other systems, and of the areas with the greatest potential within them.


The ILE operates by using Extroverted Intuition to attune themselves to the multiple variables continually being expressed within the environment and proceeds to elucidate feasible connections and boundaries of context in order to change the way one perceives that which is operating below the surface of either everyday life or more dynamic technical arenas. To An ILE, the world is a vast network of stars with infinitely interchangeable constellations emerging from the open-ended framework. Extroverted Intuition as a leading function pushes with white-hot intensity the active rearranging of the lego-blocks of reality; not necessarily with any intention towards construction or creativity, but with the ultimate goal of introducing novelty and fresh perspectives. Combined with Introverted Thinking as a secondary function, Extroverted Intuition finds compatible yet more disciplined, objective thinking to harness its irrational, unruled nature into a potentially functional talent.]

CHECK

Extroverted Intuition (Ne) -ILEs are obsessed with how things work, and how they will work together. Understanding how something works is merely the baseline for the ILE. When the ILE finds something new or interesting he thinks about how it could be used in conjunction with other objects he has come into contact with in the past.

The ILE will freely voice comments on whether a rule (especially one imposed on him by society) makes sense to him. If it does not, he will break the rule or find a creative way of mocking it to express his dissent, rather than working within the system itself to change the rule. Unlike a Ti-leading type, he will often not replace the rule with one of his own.


The ILE is not afraid of discussing and arguing his views, and may appear to take them more seriously than he actually does. The ILE only makes use of structural frameworks if he can see some kind of intuitive relevance in them, e.g. to make sense of and solve a problem he is interested in. Thus his thoughts may often appear unstructured. Especially if his actions affect others, the ILE will make sure that they are logically consistent and fair.

CHECK

Extroverted Sensing (Se) - The ILE finds it difficult to get himself to do uninteresting, tedious work simply out of responsibility. If he has to, he will acutely feel his own lack of discipline. Thus the ILE is more comfortable when he has a flexible schedule and is free to pursue whatever seems most interesting to him at the moment.The ILE is typically only able to sustain short periods of strenuous activity.
ILEs are uninterested in forcing people to do things, and are not keen on those who impose their will on others, so they do not take well to direct commands. They often detest authority exercised in this way, and will often challenge abuses of power. When backed into a corner by an aggressive Se, the often harmless appearing ILE will immediately rise to meet the threat and strike it down with carefully crafted ease. The impact the ILE has on society is usually through his understanding of how the world works rather than a position of material influence. For example, an ILE might rather advise a person in power than hold an official position of high authority. He will only take such a position if it is necessary (and if no one else will do so).

This I'm not sure about, you sounded like a major workaholic in your questionnaire. The part about being insightful but not very externally productive fits though

Introverted Ethics (Fi) - Unstable in maintaining psychological distance. May have trouble making clear attraction. Can hide their personal sentiments when pushed and avoids the public examination of their desires. ILE's tend to be unaware of how others view them relationship wise, unstable in levels of trust. View relationships skeptically unless legitimized. This can result in a mistrust of others and a general wariness regarding others' opinions of them, potentially causing irrational behaviors based on misconceptions in this area. They appreciate people who can reassure them of the status of a relationship.

Emotional responses to trauma will often manifest themselves several years later, triggered by things that seem to have little to do with the event responsible for the reaction e.g. abandonment issues surface after visiting a nursing home.

That's you alright


Interestingly, with me is the other way around: I want to fit one description, because my personality is too complex and I need specialized advice, not to mention I want to be able to compare to my same type peers.
You've been intentionally getting on nerves, so don't you dare play innocent Don't worry, I'd only insult him between the sheets, and you know he'd like it

Also, where are your notes on my type?

[Chae]

How can anyone argue EIE for you when there's no Fe or Ni in sight is beyond me. And Beta, seriously?

I've already brought up evidence, but this seems fitting:



CHECK



CHECK



This I'm not sure about, you sounded like a major workaholic in your questionnaire. The part about being insightful but not very externally productive fits though



That's you alright


Interestingly, with me is the other way around: I want to fit one description, because my personality is too complex and I need specialized advice, not to mention I want to be able to compare to my same type peers.
You've been intentionally getting on nerves, so don't you dare play innocent Don't worry, I'd only insult him between the sheets, and you know he'd like it

Also, where are your notes on my type?

In retrospect, I realized that some people wanted me in their quadra or as their (semi-)dual, and that's totally ok <3

I related to these posts! Thank you very much. What would be your subtype suggestion?

I figured out something about my Si-seeking... I'm the person to refuse to socialize so I don't attend parties unless someone mentions that there's a buffet lmao there I go cracking jokes for the host all night. And I'm all over the cute animal thread spazzing how soft and beautiful everything is so that seems like the suggestive. Fe I tolerate but not too much, which is mobilizing behaviour.

Playing is my default mode, welcome to Chae's eternal maze.

[LuckyOne]

In retrospect, I realized that some people wanted me in their quadra or as their (semi-dual), and that's totally ok <3

I related to these posts! Thank you very much. What would be your subtype suggestion?

I figured out something about my Si-seeking... I'm the person to refuse to socialize so I don't attend parties unless someone mentions that there's a buffet lmao there I go cracking jokes for the host all night. And I'm all over the cute animal thread spazzing how soft and beautiful everything is so that seems like the suggestive. Fe I tolerate but not too much, which is mobilizing behaviour.

Playing is my default mode, welcome to Chae's eternal maze.

I was wrong. Check my last post on the thread you made for me. Still Ne ego, though.

I've already got to the center.

[Chae]

I was wrong. Check my last post on the thread you made for me. Still Ne ego, though.

I've already got to the center.

I'm comfortable with it, sankyuu Could you explain more about your notions of my Fi creative? I can see it in my social activism and love for the arts but that's all I have so far. I would've liked Fi polr for my asocial character and messed up relations, I'm not a people person even if I am humanitarian.

[LuckyOne]

I'm comfortable with it, sankyuu Could you explain more about your notions of my Fi creative? I can see it in my social activism and love for the arts but that's all I have so far. I would've liked Fi polr for my asocial character and messed up relations, I'm not a people person even if I am humanitarian.

You're welcome, my lovable weeaboo

Love for the arts isn't indicative of any function or type. I see your creative Fi in your love of new people with unknown qualities you put a lot of curious energy into drawing out and discovering. You know how to gain the trust and friendship of others and acquire their help with their latest interests. The emotional value you insights and theories have are another example. The way you identify with and invest yourself in others are another. There's more, but these easily come to mind.

[Chae]

You're welcome, my lovable weeaboo

Love for the arts isn't indicative of any function or type. I see your creative Fi in your love of new people with unknown qualities you put a lot of curious energy into drawing out and discovering. You know how to gain the trust and friendship of others and acquire their help with their latest interests. The emotional value you insights and theories have are another example. The way you identify with and invest yourself in others are another. There's more, but these easily come to mind.

Unknown qualities - check
trust - check
friendship - idk, I try to It's not always working out.
emotional value - check, the psychological and spiritual levels are especially important to me.
investment - carefully, but yes, esp when infatuated by their novelty. I usually love the person who's the most talented.

[LuckyOne]

Unknown qualities - check
trust - check
friendship - idk, I try to It's not always working out.
emotional value - check, the psychological and spiritual levels are especially important to me.
investment - carefully, but yes, esp when infatuated by their novelty. I usually love the person who's the most talented.

You're having issues on the friendship front? How come?

I can relate

[Chae]

You're having issues on the friendship front? How come?

I can relate

It sort of gets contradictive here: on the one hand, I am friends with people over years, on the other, I don't keep up with them or invite them properly. Most friendships I currently have only take place at university and not in private. Gaining friendships as you said, that's easy for me. What comes afterwards is more complicated for me.

I know Interestingly, all those talented people have a shadow side that's equally intense Generally, you get a great deal of Yin/Yang there, that makes it thrilling.

[Persephone]

And how all of this is Te lead... mewonders

[LuckyOne]

It sort of gets contradictive here: on the one hand, I am friends with people over years, on the other, I don't keep up with them or invite them properly. Most friendships I currently have only take place at university and not in private. Gaining friendships as you said, that's easy for me. What comes afterwards is more complicated for me.

I know Interestingly, all those talented people have a shadow side that's equally intense Generally, you get a great deal of Yin/Yang there, that makes it thrilling.

That's creative Fi:

The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

I'm exactly the same, which is why I click so well with people who are proactive in terms of interaction. I hardly invite people for anything, I'm always the guest.

If they weren't we SX first wouldn't like them, would we? We get what we paid for

[Chae]

I'm exactly the same, which is why I click so well with people who are proactive in terms of interaction. I hardly invite people for anything, I'm always the guest.

If they weren't we SX first wouldn't like them, would we? We get what we paid for

Yep, you nailed it. Especially the moods part, that's quite a problem. My long-term feelings can fluctuate a lot while starting off is super easy and exciting. Yes, a proactive person is cool to be with because idk - instant mutuality is always nice. I'm the guest as well if I don't decline or hesitate a lot, which happens often. But once I'm there I'm almost always having a good time

I didn't quite get what you wanted to express with the last sentence, sorry I got confused there

[Exodus]

It sort of gets contradictive here: on the one hand, I am friends with people over years, on the other, I don't keep up with them or invite them properly. Most friendships I currently have only take place at university and not in private. Gaining friendships as you said, that's easy for me. What comes afterwards is more complicated for me.

I see this primarily as extroversion: easy to expand contacts, less easy to maintain them. But specifically it's Fe and Ne vs Fi and maybe Si.

[LuckyOne]

Yep, you nailed it. Especially the moods part, that's quite a problem. My long-term feelings can fluctuate a lot while starting off is super easy and exciting. Yes, a proactive person is cool to be with because idk - instant mutuality is always nice. I'm the guest as well if I don't decline or hesitate a lot, which happens often. But once I'm there I'm almost always having a good time

I didn't quite get what you wanted to express with the last sentence, sorry I got confused there

I used to decline or as we Koreans say, "be difficult", until I realized I always had a great time out with them. Now I'm usually very willing if not excited to go out.

I meant it can be difficult to stan these people or engage with them in case they are physically part of our lives, but that we can't really complain because we knew what we were getting into, and t's what sparked our interest in the first place.

[Muddy]

Whatever your type is I'm certain you are my identical, which is probably ILE. Perhaps the Ne and Ti makes it hard to self-type since the leading Ne constantly pushes you into exploring other type possibilities while the Ti creative makes it easy to restructure the theory to fit your idea of whatever type you are.

[Jarno]

whether you are ILI or IEI, i would say you are the accepting subtype, so the Ni subtype in both cases.

just because you use that Ni grammar so much.

but ofcourse this is my first impression, i might change it later.

[Chae]

Whatever your type is I'm certain you are my identical, which is probably ILE. Perhaps the Ne and Ti makes it hard to self-type since the leading Ne constantly pushes you into exploring other type possibilities while the Ti creative makes it easy to restructure the theory to fit your idea of whatever type you are.

Exactly, that would be my way to explain it as well. I always feel beyond the description boundaries - "I identify with this, and this, and this as well! And it doesn't even contradict, I'm just all of that" - so that seems to be precisely what is. I'd probably make up my own type if I could (I already joined @totalize's Eta Quadra ).

How did you find your type? That would be interesting to know. And what other parallels do you see between us?

[Chae]

I used to decline or as we Koreans say, "be difficult", until I realized I always had a great time out with them. Now I'm usually very willing if not excited to go out.

I meant it can be difficult to stan these people or engage with them in case they are physically part of our lives, but that we can't really complain because we knew what we were getting into, and t's what sparked our interest in the first place.

Interesting, I didn't know that. As in, playing hard to get? Or is "being difficult" something else?

----

Since we're here in my typing thread, I'll write a longer piece about this topic and how I see it (mostly in a negative way, prepare yourself); it could indicate more about my type. For TL;DR skip to the bolded part.

So, I'm still very wary when it comes to socializing. It gets better with the years, but still... I don't seek it voluntarily, I don't keep up with what my peers do (and when I do, I'm shocked). I even go out all by myself, to festivals, and other things, spending Saturday night alone is no problem, actually my default mode.
Ex.: Recently, I often visit my favorite book shop which has a small café in it. I sit down for 2 hours, drink a macchiato and read, write, research, study, have a nice chat with the waiter, type something. Heaven. I could spend my entire life like that. It's way better than sitting around at a student party where drunk people puke and hit on me, where I hear senseless gossip and disgusting stories of some ex-boyfriend's recent death threat, where the music sucks, where I get groped, where I could get drugged and raped, where I have to punch people that threaten the friends I'm with (seriously... since I'm the sober one I have to play bodyguard), where I want to dance but end up as some third wheel, and where I talk all night just to entertain some awkward beans that don't like me anyways. (Or is it the other way around, I'm awkward and don't like them? Probably both.) Aaand it's expensive.
Don't get me started on house parties. The things I've seen and heard still creep me out. I feel like I was born in the wrong generation. I try hard to be compassionate but I can't really understand these people. So I'd rather stay at home or go out elsewhere where I can enjoy myself.

The weird part is, I get on better with my relatives than with people of my age. If my relatives invite me for dinner, I'm there in no time and talk to everyone, and people really like me Among fellow students, however, I'm usually excluded, talked over in conversation, or even ignored. I have no problem with that (blatant lie) and I will avoid larger interactions in the first place unless it's for work.

My take on it would be that I am a rather ruthless competitor at school/university and prioritize my success over being well-liked and involved, on good terms, etc. That's what makes me so unpopular, at least in my eyes, I don't know if others really think I'm the way I perceive myself. I don't bother asking. On the other hand, my relatives think I'm awesome because from afar, they see my hard work, the good results. I attribute a lot of that to my enneagram... dealing with an egocentric achievement monster (won't deny it, that's who I am) in a career environment is hell, but when you meet them outside of their work realm, suddenly they are admirable The people I ignore or outperform at my work environment reflect it back to me so I'm envied and alienated. To the point where I prefer being with my family instead of the people I see every day, people I depend on to be successful. Because without having someone to compete with, there's nothing to win Ironically, I would like to have a positive reputation among my peers (maybe I already have one and they don't show it??), I would like to hang out with them, but 1) I really don't like most of their habits and 2) again, people have a bias and assume I'm as competitive and aggressive in private, too.

An example for those habits would be... well, I recall a mid-term barbecue party of my math teacher. My fellow students were loitering in the living room and the garden while I was helping to prepare food and the tableware in the kitchen. I mean, our teacher bought all of the groceries and bothered preparing it, I thought: you can't just take everything without giving something back. So I started organizing and preparing as well. I follow the same approach at university: you contribute to the seminar and show interest, support the teacher in their efforts, thematic pursuit and authority --> you get a good grade! Back to the story: A little later, as the food was served and we were eating, the mood was good. There were lively conversations everywhere. But people started playing around with their phones, showing embarrassing pictures, playing games, texting and so on I felt that this wasn't polite and right, our teacher seemed ok with it but I didn't agree with what was going on. Situations like these happen to me quite often, I feel completely out of place with my set of behavior standards. Completely.

Herd think = my pet peeve. Encountering a person one-on-one is a different thing, I can deal with it extremely well, it's fun. But accepting what is generally practiced normative conduct isn't really my style. It spoils most of my interactions because I either criticize, avoid, or completely go against the flow to be a role model or self-entitled vanguard, all of that pisses off everyone around me. I often interfere with other people's business like that, rendering me /the/ problematic person. I'm like "Excuse me, I'm trying to make it better because I'm not content with it?!". Idk what it is that I'm doing wrong, but I know what they do wrong, so I won't conform. Sometimes I worry that it's just my fault and that I shift all the blame but since I'm stubborn, nothing changes

-------> In a nutshell: I have a hard time accepting and adapting to how my peers behave, as trivial as it sounds. I try to impose my values on them. Meanwhile, I find it easy to relate to literally every single person isolated from the group, one-on-one. I interact well with random people, my family and relatives.

----

Oh yes, I get what you mean. It really did, that's the actual appeal of it! And oh god... entertainment is based entirely on the talent dynamic so complaining is almost biting the hand that is feeding you. I see the good parts of it, everything is one hell of a show and exciting

[LuckyOne]

Interesting, I didn't know that. As in, playing hard to get? Or is "being difficult" something else?

----

Since we're here in my typing thread, I'll write a longer piece about this topic and how I see it (mostly in a negative way, prepare yourself); it could indicate more about my type. For TL;DR skip to the bolded part.

So, I'm still very wary when it comes to socializing. It gets better with the years, but still... I don't seek it voluntarily, I don't keep up with what my peers do (and when I do, I'm shocked). I even go out all by myself, to festivals, and other things, spending Saturday night alone is no problem, actually my default mode.
Ex.: Recently, I often visit my favorite book shop which has a small café in it. I sit down for 2 hours, drink a macchiato and read, write, research, study, have a nice chat with the waiter, type something. Heaven. I could spend my entire life like that. It's way better than sitting around at a student party where drunk people puke and hit on me, where I hear senseless gossip and disgusting stories of some ex-boyfriend's recent death threat, where the music sucks, where I get groped, where I could get drugged and raped, where I have to punch people that threaten the friends I'm with (seriously... since I'm the sober one I have to play bodyguard), where I want to dance but end up as some third wheel, and where I talk all night just to entertain some awkward beans that don't like me anyways. (Or is it the other way around, I'm awkward and don't like them? Probably both.) Aaand it's expensive.
Don't get me started on house parties. The things I've seen and heard still creep me out. I feel like I was born in the wrong generation. I try hard to be compassionate but I can't really understand these people. So I'd rather stay at home or go out elsewhere where I can enjoy myself.

The weird part is, I get on better with my relatives than with people of my age. If my relatives invite me for dinner, I'm there in no time and talk to everyone, and people really like me Among fellow students, however, I'm usually excluded, talked over in conversation, or even ignored. I have no problem with that (blatant lie) and I will avoid larger interactions in the first place unless it's for work.

My take on it would be that I am a rather ruthless competitor at school/university and prioritize my success over being well-liked and involved, on good terms, etc. That's what makes me so unpopular, at least in my eyes, I don't know if others really think I'm the way I perceive myself. I don't bother asking. On the other hand, my relatives think I'm awesome because from afar, they see my hard work, the good results. I attribute a lot of that to my enneagram... dealing with an egocentric achievement monster (won't deny it, that's who I am) in a career environment is hell, but when you meet them outside of their work realm, suddenly they are admirable The people I ignore or outperform at my work environment reflect it back to me so I'm envied and alienated. To the point where I prefer being with my family instead of the people I see every day, people I depend on to be successful. Because without having someone to compete with, there's nothing to win Ironically, I would like to have a positive reputation among my peers (maybe I already have one and they don't show it??), I would like to hang out with them, but 1) I really don't like most of their habits and 2) again, people have a bias and assume I'm as competitive and aggressive in private, too.

An example for those habits would be... well, I recall a mid-term barbecue party of my math teacher. My fellow students were loitering in the living room and the garden while I was helping to prepare food and the tableware in the kitchen. I mean, our teacher bought all of the groceries and bothered preparing it, I thought: you can't just take everything without giving something back. So I started organizing and preparing as well. I follow the same approach at university: you contribute to the seminar and show interest, support the teacher in their efforts, thematic pursuit and authority --> you get a good grade! Back to the story: A little later, as the food was served and we were eating, the mood was good. There were lively conversations everywhere. But people started playing around with their phones, showing embarrassing pictures, playing games, texting and so on I felt that this wasn't polite and right, our teacher seemed ok with it but I didn't agree with what was going on. Situations like these happen to me quite often, I feel completely out of place with my set of behavior standards. Completely.

Herd think = my pet peeve. Encountering a person one-on-one is a different thing, I can deal with it extremely well, it's fun. But accepting what is generally practiced normative conduct isn't really my style. It spoils most of my interactions because I either criticize, avoid, or completely go against the flow to be a role model or self-entitled vanguard, all of that pisses off everyone around me. I often interfere with other people's business like that, rendering me /the/ problematic person. I'm like "Excuse me, I'm trying to make it better because I'm not content with it?!". Idk what it is that I'm doing wrong, but I know what they do wrong, so I won't conform. Sometimes I worry that it's just my fault and that I shift all the blame but since I'm stubborn, nothing changes

-------> In a nutshell: I have a hard time accepting and adapting to how my peers behave, as trivial as it sounds. I try to impose my values on them. Meanwhile, I find it easy to relate to literally every single person isolated from the group, one-on-one. I interact well with random people, my family and relatives.

----

Oh yes, I get what you mean. It really did, that's the actual appeal of it! And oh god... entertainment is based entirely on the talent dynamic so complaining is almost biting the hand that is feeding you. I see the good parts of it, everything is one hell of a show and exciting

Playing hard to get sometimes depending on the relationship between the people talking, or it can mean not going with what they are asking of/proposing to you. WIht me is always the second case. So they have to convince me.


I've read it all. What I see: blatant E3, very strong Fi and definitely 1w2. Also, copious amounts of SP. It colors every account, every observation, every pet peeve.


Can't see SX/SP after this, really can't. You're too anti. It's way past how I work, and I'm an 8.

[Chae]

Playing hard to get sometimes depending on the relationship between the people talking, or it can mean not going with what they are asking of/proposing to you. WIht me is always the second case. So they have to convince me.


I've read it all. What I see: blatant E3, very strong Fi and definitely 1w2. Also, copious amounts of SP. It colors every account, every observation, every pet peeve.


Can't see SX/SP after this, really can't. You're too anti. It's way past how I work, and I'm an 8.

Yes, that's resistance! For me, playing hard to get makes no sense, I decide whether I want the interaction or not. I feel as if I'm a target, which is unacceptable. It works vice versa, the other person is my target. Convincing is a good point (another one for your collection of points given by me ), though I like things to flow naturally. It either works or not.

You basically typed my mom
I'd have no problem with SP/SX. I just can't see any healthy expression of SX.
Way past e8, now that's a compliment. Anti... kind of. Can you describe your ways of going about it, how we differ?

1w9 > 1w2.

I'm not sure about your Fi assessment. I double checked with this description by Augusta:

the individual possesses the innate ability to perceive and evaluate wishes/desires — both his own and others'. He always knows who wants what from whom. He is able to set his awareness of subjective reality and his wishes in opposition to those of others. He has the ability to mould and perfect both his own and others' wishes. He possesses both the ability to provide himself with necessary relationships with others and confidence in his capacity to influence other people. His correct perception of human needs allows him to avoid risky collisions when satisfying his own needs. This engenders the ability to manipulate people's attachments, and the ability and desire to influence people's ethical feelings and bring these feelings closer to societal ideals.

I used to be the personification of risky collision. Needs of others are still difficult to access for me, and as I described, I rather clash than influence someone toward societal ideals since I have only mine in mind. That would rather point to low Fi as I am unaware of other people's exact wishes and can't get close to them, I simply can't pinpoint their wants so I either guess (leading to false assessments) or dictate my own opinion, or research about them. I use Fe instead to show outward approval, but I don't feel it deep inside, there's quite a (sad) disparity. I can be nice to a person even if I utterly dislike them just for the sake of getting what I aim for (e3 downfall of deception). Since I know that I am rather weak in relation regards, I prefer to do things on my own so I can be true to my agenda. Working alone over group work any day (---> social blind spot confirmed).

[LuckyOne]

Yes, that's resistance! For me, playing hard to get makes no sense, I decide whether I want the interaction or not. I feel as if I'm a target, which is unacceptable. It works vice versa, the other person is my target. Convincing is a good point (another one for your collection of points given by me ), though I like things to flow naturally. It either works or not.

You basically typed my mom
I'd have no problem with SP/SX. I just can't see any healthy expression of SX.
Way past e8, now that's a compliment. Anti... kind of. Can you describe your ways of going about it, how we differ?

1w9 > 1w2.

I'm not sure about your Fi assessment. I double checked with this description by Augusta:



[/FONT][/COLOR]I used to be the personification of risky collision. Needs of others are still difficult to access for me, and as I described, I rather clash than influence someone toward societal ideals since I have only mine in mind. That would rather point to low Fi as I am unaware of other people's exact wishes and can't get close to them, I simply can't pinpoint their wants so I either guess (leading to false assessments) or dictate my own opinion, or research about them. I use Fe instead to show outward approval, but I don't feel it deep inside, there's quite a (sad) disparity. I can be nice to a person even if I utterly dislike them just for the sake of getting what I aim for (e3 downfall of deception). Since I know that I am rather weak in relation regards, I prefer to do things on my own so I can be true to my agenda. Working alone over group work any day (---> social blind spot confirmed).

Then you are an awful lot like her. In her or in the type itself?


It's just that literally nothing you described here registter as SX first, whatever the second instinct. There's a difference in displaying a certain
resistance in general and using avoidance as a coping mechanism, and this anti stance you have on social interaction. Your attitude is negative all the time, you have little interest in relating to others and when you have and found difficulty in doing so, you give up. You complain about it, but does nothing to change it and is quick to justify why you act like this. It might be a that your real feelings aren't translating well on your writing, but I find it hard to believe by your choice of words, that you really miss interacting or blending with people. And Fi in the first two positions is frequently and understandably mistaken for SX first. And that is definitely not a compliment, but coupled with you mom comment, it confirms notions I already had.


Of course you'd pick a 9 wing versus a 2, I was waiting for that.


I'm opting out of this Fi discussion because it's pretty clear where this is going ("points to low Fi", "I use Fe"). I have zero interest in getting into another debate when you are already backpedalling on what you said about my typing.


I'll just say this: it seems like you see Fi as being the emotional/human version of Ni. If Ni gives one a "glimpse into the future", then Fi would give one a "peek into other's hearts/minds". That's not how it works, at all. Fi is actually one of the most debated and contested functions and it's easily proved by the constant debates about what it actually does. You can research and figure that out on your own, but here's what it doesn't do: tell you what people want or feel. It's not a magical power, it's a tool like all the others. If anything, Fe is the master people reader.

[squark]

Wherever I am, a fundamental debate emerges on here - how can we interpret that with Socionics?

There's always debate on here. You're not special.

[Chae]

There's always debate on here. You're not special.

Yep. Cute that you dig up my posts

[squark]

Was in new posts, just like this one was.