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Thread: The energy model. (Model G)

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    Default The energy model. (Model G)

    So it basically describe how we divide our energy, you know the thing we need food and sleep to regain (or being alone as some introverts is being referred to being a 'battery'). Two elements gets the "maximal energy", we just do this element as much as we can. Then we get the two elements that use "optimal energy", we use as much energy on this as we need to get to our goal. Than we have two elements in our "minimum energy", we do not really spend as much energy here as we should or need to really get where we want. Than we have two elements at "pessimism energy" which we just do not want to spend any energy on at all. It is too draining.

    The element hierarchy does not line up with model A, which does not mean they are not compatible. They describe different aspects of the elements in the types.

    Does someone "gets it"?



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    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    I would say "I don't know" like the statisticians walking into a bar but people probably don't get that so I'll say no.

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    "The element hierarchy does not line up with model A, which does not mean they are not compatible. They describe different aspects of the elements in the types."

    Well, they are compatible insofar as the + and - spins are just aspects of the normal IM elements.

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    يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    "The element hierarchy does not line up with model A, which does not mean they are not compatible. They describe different aspects of the elements in the types."

    Well, they are compatible insofar as the + and - spins are just aspects of the normal IM elements.
    The spins are not relevant for this thread. Do you understand the difference in what Model A and Model G try to explain?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    The spins are not relevant for this thread.
    How are they not relevant? They're an integral part of Model G.

    Do you understand the difference in what Model A and Model G try to explain?
    Tbh, I haven't bothered delving deeply into Model G except for the spins. There are some good ideas in it but it seems to be drifting quite far from classical socionics.

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    يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    How are they not relevant? They're an integral part of Model G.



    Tbh, I haven't bothered delving deeply into Model G except for the spins. There are some good ideas in it but it seems to be drifting quite far from classical socionics.
    The spins for all the types.



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    Share of spins create new groups.

    + NeTi SeFi, - TeSi FeNi
    ILE
    SEI
    EIE
    LSI
    LSE
    EII
    SEE
    ILI

    + FeSi TeNi, - SeTi NeFi
    ESE
    LII
    SLE
    IEI
    LIE
    ESI
    IEE
    SLI

    When using same spins and than divide them by "base element +" and "base element -" we get the supervision rings.

    NeTiSeFi+ and + : ILE, LSI, SEE, EII
    NeTiSeFi+ and - : SEI, EIE, ILI, LSE
    FiTeNiFe+ and - : ESE, IEI, LIE, SLI
    FiTeNiFe+ and + : LII, SLE, ESI, IEE

    To get to the Socion, divide them by I and E type. We get the benefit rings.

    ILE, EIE, SEE, LSE = leader/linker
    ESE, SLE, LIE, IEE = implementer/organizer
    SEI, LSI, ILI,
    EII = stabilizer
    LII, IEI, ESI, SLI = corrector/perfector



    From : The Socion thread
    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    IEI passes things over to SEE not LIE (unless it's a typo). Under this formulation, it is either the semi-dual or the mirage partner of left introverted type that takes over.

    Gulenko doesn't go over quadra reversal in detail, but he does mention that preceding quadra can take over at the point in time when reign of following quadra is coming to an end in which case it is left introvert's mirage partner that gets involved. Though some think that quadra reversal isn't possible. This is what I posted in the old thread:

    n his interpretation of it, the result/process types alternate as the quadra progresses (link). So it goes:
    a: ILE-ESE-SEI-LII
    b: EIE-SLE-LSI-IEI
    g: SEE-LIE-ILI-ESI
    d: LSE-IEE-EII-SLI
    Each quadra begins with right/process extraverted type which helps get things rolling for that quadra. The right/process introverted type comes towards the end, what he calls it the "stabilizer" - this type effectively prolongs this quadra's reign until some indeterminate point that the left/result introverted type gets involved. This type he calls the "corrector" or "perfector" and from what I've gathered it's role is to survey the product of the reign of its quadra. This he calls the "point of bifurcation" where the system can go either one of two ways: either the next quadra takes over or there is a rollback to previous quadra. I was looking recently at this thread that you've made and noticed that indeed the left introverted type, the point of path selection, is conjoined with both right introvert types of the following quadra and the preceding quadra in the taciturn and narrator cycles. Perhaps this has some connection to it. Though there is something off here as in your sequence it goes ENFj-INTj-ESTj-ISFj-ENFj where starting point is type on left and transition occurs to type on the right, but in Gulenko's story it goes the other way - INTj is the corrector type in alpha who transfers things over to ENFj and the next quadra.

    Maybe "energy" goes from alpha to delta and "direction" goes from delta to alpha. In that case in each quadra the leader/linker always force the energy into the quadra and the corrector always force the
    direction into the quadra.


    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-02-2016 at 02:02 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Share of spins create 4 new groups.

    ILE, EIE, SEE, LSE = leader/linker
    ESE, SLE, LIE, IEE = implementer/organizer
    SEI, LSI, ILI,
    EII = stabilizer
    LII, IEI, ESI, SLI = corrector/perfector



    From : The Socion thread


    Maybe "energy" goes from alpha to delta and "direction" goes from delta to alpha. In that case in each quadra the leader/linker always force the energy into the quadra and the corrector always force the
    direction into the quadra.



    Amusing read but Viktor doesn't understand the IP temperament philosophy - it's not about perpetual stability always being modified, being free to adapt to the world as it may ever be. I'm inclined to move from system to system although my systems are always stable, things do get boring so I feel I should always be prepared to try something different.

    I don't understand his ILI views and they don't describe me. Perhaps I'm just not a Gamma type but rather the missing IP Alpha NT, given my own obsession with ideas.

    When he talks about ideas for the sake of ideas - I believe that is rubbish, all ideas aren't created equal only great ideas change the world. If the ideas aren't practicable it just means the person isn't a great thinker, the person isn't worthy of the term scientist. I think he likes to cut himself some slack for indulging in impracticable ideas.

    To be honest, I do too, but I know there is a difference in intellect between romanticised ideas and the level of intelligence required to cross the bridge from dreams to the real world. It calls for a superior understanding of one's reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Amusing read but Viktor doesn't understand the IP temperament philosophy - it's not about perpetual stability always being changed being free to adapt to the world as it may ever be. I don't understand his ILI views and they don't describe me. Perhaps I'm just not a Gamma type but rather the missing IP Alpha NT, given my own obsession with ideas.

    When he talks about ideas for the sake of ideas - I believe that is rubbish, all ideas aren't created equal only great ideas change the world. If the ideas aren't practicable it just means the person isn't a great thinker, the person isn't worthy of the term scientist. I think he likes to cut himself some slack for indulging in impracticable ideas.

    To be honest, I do too, but I know there is a difference in intellect between romanticised ideas and the level of intelligence required to cross the bridge from dreams to the real world. It calls for a superior understanding of one's reality.
    Aint it the curse of LII that their thinking does not too often have practical purposes?


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    The trouble with socionics is its strict pseudo-science foundation - endless claims being made without a paradigm for verification and falsification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Aint it the curse of LII that their thinking does not too often have practical purposes?
    No it is just him, it is a matter of intellect, he knows how to dream like many of us but simply isn't smart enough to construct the bridge.

    Viktor thinks hard science is "Te" and very shallow as evidenced in his perception of ILI as people interested in light science

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    The trouble with socionics is its strict pseudo-science foundation - endless claims being made without a paradigm for verification and falsification.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    No it is just him, it is a matter of intellect, he knows how to dream like many of us but simply isn't smart enough to construct the bridge
    You seem awful bitter today. Well I am not going to defend any theory, and I believe the thing about LII does usually not base their theories on real world practicality is just, part of the theory in a way.


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    The High IQ LII create profound models of reality owing to a superior abstraction of the world which makes their models worth it in science. After I did more research I later discovered that IQ and creative thinking genes factor more than sociotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    You seem awful bitter today. Well I am not going to defend any theory, and I believe the thing about LII does usually not base their theories on real world practicality is just, part of the theory in a way.
    I'm just venting my frustration with socionics and the pain I'm hiding underneath - it hurts me that it is seen as rubbish yet I feel it has so much potential to be a corner-stone of society. Negative energy personally can motivate me passionately either into action or to bitterly accept my reality and inadequacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    The High IQ LII create profound models of reality owing to a superior abstraction of the world which makes their models worth it in science. After I did more research I later discovered that IQ and creative thinking genes factor more than sociotypes.
    How do you factor sociotypes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I'm just venting my frustration with socionics and the pain I'm hiding underneath - it hurts me that it is seen as rubbish yet I feel it has so much potential to be a corner-stone of society. Negative energy personally can motivate me passionately either into action or to bitterly accept my reality and inadequacy
    I wonder if, and if was common knowledge how to identify all the relations, we could make directions for them. For example, when a supervisor you must not give direct orders to your supervisee. If you are mentally ill, you are advised to connect with your dual. When a country divide what path to take, what rules to make, it should consider the spirit of all the Quadra. It could be 4 parties in a country which each contains the values of one Quadra.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-02-2016 at 08:29 PM.


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    Ok that's something to digest, but it seems useful.

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    Post if any discoveries.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Share of spins create new groups.

    + NeTi SeFi, - TeSi FeNi
    ILE
    SEI
    EIE
    LSI
    LSE
    EII
    SEE
    ILI

    + FeSi TeNi, - SeTi NeFi
    ESE
    LII
    SLE
    IEI
    LIE
    ESI
    IEE
    SLI

    When using same spins and than divide them by "base element +" and "base element -" we get the supervision rings.

    NeTiSeFi+ and + : ILE, LSI, SEE, EII
    NeTiSeFi+ and - : SEI, EIE, ILI, LSE
    FiTeNiFe+ and - : ESE, IEI, LIE, SLI
    FiTeNiFe+ and + : LII, SLE, ESI, IEE

    To get to the Socion, divide them by I and E type. We get the benefit rings.

    ILE, EIE, SEE, LSE = leader/linker
    ESE, SLE, LIE, IEE = implementer/organizer
    SEI, LSI, ILI,
    EII = stabilizer
    LII, IEI, ESI, SLI = corrector/perfector



    From : The Socion thread


    Maybe "energy" goes from alpha to delta and "direction" goes from delta to alpha. In that case in each quadra the leader/linker always force the energy into the quadra and the corrector always force the
    direction into the quadra.


    Energy decreases with age (Alpha -> Delta) while information (knowledge) increases with it. It's quite logical if you think about it.

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    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    How do you factor sociotypes?
    Partially by the stereotypes which can be reliable as a heuristic guess, however, I have an LII friend from university with a very high IQ and he defies Viktor's assertion that LII create impractical and unworkable systems. He wouldn't be a supercomputer programmer and researcher if he wasn't intelligent enough to devise workable systems, which are also logically consistent and elegant.

    In modern science and engineering, models are supposed to be both workable and logically consistent. Theoretical research is supposed to pave the way to practice - everything must be reinforced empirically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Partially by the stereotypes which can be reliable as a heuristic guess, however, I have an LII friend from university with a very high IQ and he defies Viktor's assertion that LII create impractical and unworkable systems. He wouldn't be a supercomputer programmer and researcher if he wasn't intelligent enough to devise workable systems, which are also logically consistent and elegant.

    In modern science and engineering, models are supposed to be both workable and logically consistent. Theoretical research is supposed to pave the way to practice - everything must be reinforced empirically.
    I do not think you get it, even if your language is so very cool. LII do not base their logic in practicality is not the same as their logic is not consistent or that they create "unworkable systems".

    Do you factor it, sociotypes, as .3 important whereas IQ is .9 important?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I do not think you get it, even if your language is so very cool. LII do not base their logic in practicality is not the same as their logic is not consistent or that they create "unworkable systems".

    Do you factor it, sociotypes, as .3 important whereas IQ is .9 important?
    We have subjective differences on the definition of practicality (the term is ambiguous owing to variations in interpretations), if you haven't read it Viktor thinks mathematics is "Te" as well as applied research that he says Gamma NTs are liable to.

    Anyway there is nothing wrong with disagreements provided people remain civil, it is not like any of us has got the monopoly on the absolute truth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    We have subjective differences on the definition of practicality (the term is ambiguous owing to variations in interpretations), if you haven't read it Viktor thinks mathematics is "Te" as well as applied research that he says Gamma NTs are liable to.

    Anyway there is nothing wrong with disagreements provided people remain civil, it is not like any of us has got the monopoly on the absolute truth
    Well you are the guy jumping into this thread with saying that everything is horseshit, pretty much. Help me understand the arrows in combination with the externalities/internalities. Is it a path in the elements a person take when solving something? Is it a never ending circuit that just goes around?
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-04-2016 at 05:29 PM.


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