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Thread: Ni - the memory function

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    Default Ni - the memory function

    So this will be a bit, fun.

    Basically what if the purpose of Ni is to have a memory of history. Ni usually referens to how things came to be, the Why. Time right. It is how object travel with time and change and evolve. What if Ni element is how to systematically store the sensory world in a frame that help us understand how things come to be. To correct and understand why things came to be and therefor understand what can be changed without disrupting what is the essence of it.


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    Memory... It's more about linking, storage is secondary.

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    Linking seperate things together mentally has been proven to help with retaining information.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I think Ni does increase your memory but I don't think that's what its purpose is. I have no idea how to describe Ni but I know it when I see it.

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    Memory is a universal human ability, not a superpower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    So this will be a bit, fun.

    Basically what if the purpose of Ni is to have a memory of history. Ni usually referens to how things came to be, the Why. Time right. It is how object travel with time and change and evolve. What if Ni element is how to systematically store the sensory world in a frame that help us understand how things come to be. To correct and understand why things came to be and therefor understand what can be changed without disrupting what is the essence of it.
    I fully agree with the bolded parts - whenever you call up something from memory, you're using Ni, just like whenever you look at something you're using Se. These are obviously low-complexity uses that everybody can do, though. Ni is not necessarily "systematic" - but it can be if used with Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    So this will be a bit, fun.

    Basically what if the purpose of Ni is to have a memory of history. Ni usually referens to how things came to be, the Why. Time right. It is how object travel with time and change and evolve. What if Ni element is how to systematically store the sensory world in a frame that help us understand how things come to be. To correct and understand why things came to be and therefor understand what can be changed without disrupting what is the essence of it.
    Aren't you going to say more about this? I thought I might have been tuning into the essence of what you were getting at. I have been waiting patiently.

    Ni is not about time but time and timing is an element of it. Memory in an Ni lead is probably different than what some people might think it is. There are many elements involved when your base function is Ni, just as any other base function. Ni is informed by subconscious Se. The day you posted this I had some ideas come to mind right before I saw this and I was wondering if there was a connection.


    Understanding Introverted Intuition


    Introverted intuition is similar to extraverted intuition; except that it is more of an internal process, and it is more focused. Where Ne users generate unlimited possibilities that they put into the outside world; leaping from one idea to the next, Ni users are much more internally focused. They like to connect the dots, take in a plethora of information, and find a hidden pathway or ‘insight’ into the future. They love the world of ideas and visions, and often think in images, symbols, and metaphors. They notice patterns easily, and are excellent strategists, often coming up with a “master plan” or forecast of the future. They are the Nikola Tesla’s, the Stephen Hawking’s (INTJs) or the Leo Tolstoy’s and the Carl Jung’s (INFJs).


    Ni users are more concerned with “the big picture” than any other type. They are the most abstract and forward-looking of any of the types; and have very little patience for the “here and now”. For this reason, they are very frustrated when having to deal with monotonous, day-to-day tasks. Ni users often have strong “gut” feelings and have a hard time explaining these feelings to others. They take in and analyze so much information at once, trying to find the common thread that ties it all together, that sometimes they’ll intuitively come to a conclusion, or have an insight, that they can’t fully explain yet.


    Ni users need to “zone out” of the world around them quite frequently; more than any other type. They are highly sensitive to the external sensory world, and are easily over-stimulated. They like to delve deep into the recesses of their mind and analyze all the information they’ve picked up and create a trail or pathway that leads to one main idea or insight. They are very reflective, and need a lot of quiet and alone time to process their thoughts.


    The thinking Ni types will come across as very blunt and sarcastic; they will be obsessed with finding the absolute truth behind an idea, and consider themselves realists. The feeling Ni types have a more accommodating communication style; still often sarcastic, but often at their own expense. They will feel other people’s emotions and be much more heavily affected by them. They often internalize other people’s feelings, and absorb them, which causes them to be heavily weighed down by an atmosphere that isn’t harmonious.


    Both types internalize emotions and commonly experience health problems as a result. They are easily overwhelmed and burned-out; largely because the world is more accommodating to sensors and extroverts than it has ever been to introverts and intuitors.



    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    Memory is a universal human ability, not a superpower.
    It doesn't have to be a superpower. There is no superpower function even if people tend to think their lead function is. He had an interesting insight and I would like to hear more about it. Although what he posted could have been the extent of it. There are different types of memory. Some people are stronger in some areas and weaker in others. As someone who has purposely blocked out years of memories (they were still there) and only recently allowing them to surface, in the past few years, I understand the differences between how I felt and thought before and how I feel and think now. Traumas can disrupt memories but so can other things.

    My memories surface when needed and I am often surprised that I know something but had no awareness of it until the moment I am asked. I have posted a bit about memory in various threads since I joined. At one point I also thought my memory worked like a filing cabinet and files were pulled as I needed them but after looking into it more, it seems way more complex than that. I am pretty fascinated by "memory". I have doubted many of my own memories and looked for "proof" they were even real. Lots of strange things like my sister remembers a bf I once had and I cannot remember him. I don't know why. Maybe at some point I will. I have also had situations where my memory of events seem very clear and the other person seems to have no idea what I am talking about.

    We tend to think our memory works like a filing cabinet. We experience an event, generate a memory and then file it away for later use. However, according to medical research, the basic mechanisms behind memory are much more dynamic. In fact, making memories is similar to plugging your laptop into an Ethernet cable -- the strength of the network determines how the event is translated within your brain.


    Neurons (nerve cells in the brain) communicate through synaptic connections (structures that pass a signal from neuron-to-neuron) that "talk" to each other when certain neurotransmitters (chemicals that allow the transmission of these signals) are present.


    Think of a neurotransmitter as an email. If you're busy and you receive one or two emails, you might ignore them. But, if you are bombarded with hundreds of emails from the same person, saying basically the same thing, all at the same time, you will likely begin to pay attention and start a conversation with the sender: Why on earth are you sending me all these emails?


    Similarly, neurons only open a line of communication with each other when they receive stimulation from several of the same neurotransmitters at once: Oh, my neighbor keeps hitting me with the same signal? I better talk to them! So, how exactly does this relate to memory? It's the strength of these connections between neurons that determines how a memory is formed.


    "The persistent strengthening of these activated synapses (connections) between neurons is called long-term potentiation (LTP)," said William Griffith, Ph.D., a cellular neuroscientist and chair of the Department of Neuroscience and Experimental Therapeutics at the Texas A&M Health Science Center College of Medicine. "LTP is the most recognized cellular mechanism to explain memory because it can alter the strength between brain cell connections. If this strength is maintained, a memory can be formed."


    LTP happens when nerve cells "fire" or talk to one another at an elevated rate without further increased stimulation from neurotransmitters. In a sense, it's like building a relationship with the email sender. Once you've started a dialogue with the sender you're in a better position to communicate more easily and maintain a strong rapport. Just like you might add the sender to your contact list, your brain has created a 'strengthened synaptic contact.' But, if you're not talking, the relationship wanes.


    Likewise, your ability to recall and remember certain memories depends on maintaining the strength of this long-term connection between synaptic contacts. LTP acts as an Ethernet cable of sorts -- allowing your brain to upload, download and process at a higher rate -- which may explain why some memories are more vivid than others: the pathway on which you contact them performs at a faster pace.


    "The brain is a plastic organ," Griffith explained. "This means it can easily reconfigure or modify itself. However, it's also a muscle. You use it or you lose it. As the synapses and pathways between neurons are used, they gain the ability to become strengthened or permanently enhanced. This is the building block of how memory works."


    In the same vein, losing this strong LTP -- or heightened synaptic connections between neurons -- could be the reason behind cognitive loss and impairment. "Because the brain is an organ, it will show wear and tear," Griffith continued. "Many people believe this decrease in neurons 'talking' to one another is responsible for cognitive loss -- because the pathways are not being used or strengthened. Just as muscles in the body atrophy when you don't use them, the brain will deteriorate when it's not stimulated."


    Griffith said the argument about how memory is consolidated and retrieved is vast, and there are many aspects that still need to be studied about the phenomenon. "When you look at or smell something, it contributes to your memory of an event," he said. "This can be mapped in many parts of the brain. Memory may also be involved in certain behaviors like addiction. Why does this happen? Is it because the pathways for addiction are strengthened, or because they're repressed? We don't know yet."


    The science behind memory is a complex one, and will likely be studied for decades to come. "Many different pathways in the brain interact to set up complex circuits for different types of memories," Griffith said. "There's much debate and more research that needs to be done to fully comprehend how our brain generates, consolidates and retrieves memories."


    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0517131928.htm





    TYPES OF MEMORY

    What we usually think of as “memory” in day-to-day usage is actually long-term memory, but there are also important short-termand sensory memory processes, which must be worked through before a long-term memory can be established. The different types of memory each have their own particular mode of operation, but they all cooperate in the process of memorization, and can be seen as three necessary steps in forming a lasting memory.
    This model of memory as a sequence of three stages, from sensory to short-term to long-term memory, rather than as a unitary process, is known as the modal or multi-store or Atkinson-Shiffrin model, after Richard Atkinson and Richard Shiffrin who developed it in 1968, and it remains the most popular model for studying memory. It is often also described as the process of memory, but I have used this description for the processes of encoding, consolidation, storage and recall in the separate Memory Processes section.

    It should be noted that an alternative model, known as the levels-of-processing model was proposed by Fergus Craik and Robert Lockhart in 1972, and posits that memory recall, and the extent to which something is memorized, is a function of the depth of mental processing, on a continuous scale from shallow (perceptual) to deep (semantic). Under this model, there is no real structure to memory and no distinction between short-term and long-term memory.



    http://www.human-memory.net/types.html


    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    I'm saying I don't correlate memory itself with .

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    I don't think of as memory per se. Rather than seeing it as "time," I see it as beyond time, outside of time.

    I've described experiencing as a warehouse full of moving images that splice together. The material in there does not need to be limited to my personal set of memories--that's way too constraining and thus possibly even counter to , which is unrestrained. I also feel it to be cool and distant and not exactly sentimental, the way personal memory might be. Rather, includes personal unconscious material and the stuff of the collective unconscious.

    As I mature, I can make better use of the collective, as I have mapped or catalogued more of the material available to me.

    I can intuit my way into history and meaning via pattern-matching. It's not a timeline approach to history. It's actually a way of cheating time by traveling internally via nexuses that route much differently than linear time and memory in the everyday sense.

    And it moves forward, too.
    Last edited by goldenbane; 09-29-2016 at 04:39 AM.

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    Ni is not memory, it is the pattern recognition of the causality of events, in which memory obviously plays an important role.

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...hat-is-ni.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Ni is not memory, it is the pattern recognition of the causality of events, in which memory obviously plays an important role.

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...hat-is-ni.html
    "This is Ni at a level that pretty much any type is capable of."

    Ya. Well. We use all the elements but some to a greater extent, more refined. Ni role people use it to see how events are going to plan out. It is kind of a low level way of Ni. At the highest level small indications follow a train of intuition that can make you store great deal of information with very small amount of data.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    "This is Ni at a level that pretty much any type is capable of."

    Ya. Well. We use all the elements but some to a greater extent, more refined. Ni role people use it to see how events are going to plan out. It is kind of a low level way of Ni. At the highest level small indications follow a train of intuition that can make you store great deal of information with very small amount of data.
    *Deleted*

    I need to edit it for redundancy. No time now since I am having some furniture delivered and they are disrupting my thoughts. grrr
    Last edited by Aylen; 09-29-2016 at 08:58 PM.

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I find this to be true, in my case. Experience helps though and without experience Ni will stagnate so if experience = data, the more the better, for accuracy. I often wake up with an answer to a situation after sleeping on it. My processing seems to work better while I am sleep. It might be different for Ni creative or other types with stronger Ni. The dream world is a timeless place so I am able to piece things together without pressure. I can move in all directions and step outside of the experience of time to work stuff out. I literally have all the time I need while sleeping. I have lived lifetimes from birth to death in a span of a few hours (our time). Then I will wake up with more cohesive (coherent) ideas that I feel confident to speak about.

    That is how I can wake up and know just what needs to be done about a problem or how a situation is going to evolve. That is why some people have thought of me as a "psychic". I am not able to just tell people their future though without any information about them like a other "real" psychics. I can't even tell my own future long term. I do know all probabilities for myself in the foreseeable future though. I don't even like to make any long term predictions for anyone because I feel I might influence their choices and lead them down the wrong path. I tend to stay quiet unless asked and sometimes even when asked. I do not like being wrong so I do pick and choose what I will say. If I have high confidence in what I am sensing then yeah I will probably tell them, unless it is really bad. My sister says not to tell her bad stuff anymore because she doesn't want to know. This was after a few bad dreams I told her about came true.

    Sometimes I make a lucky guess about someone I don't know. I don't like being asked to predict things by people I don't know. Of course I am better predicting things about my own family members, people I have know longer and situations I have subconsciously witnessed for awhile. I have been watching their patterns for a long time. It makes what I say sometimes seem prophetic but it is probably just long term pattern recognition, to my disappointment. I didn't know much about Ni and pattern recognition when I was younger. It takes all the magic out of it for me.

    It still impresses some people though who have never looked into these theories. Do I tell them? Not usually. It is not something I feel I can educate anyone on in detail. I also like to keep some mystery. I have explained it to my family though. At least those who are willing to hear about it. Most would rather maintain the mystery for some reason.

    I don't know if my explanation of Ni makes it any less mysterious anyway since it is hard to explain to those who do not use it as a base function. Those who do, no words are usually needed. We just sort of acknowledge each other in indirect ways, most of the time. It's not like we spend our whole days predicting outcomes or whatever. We have lives and other stuff to do. The one type of prediction I do that tends to irritate some people and delight others, is watching a movie and predicting what will happen next. I have practiced being silent but sometimes it is so hard. I watch a lot of movies so it isn't that hard to pick up patterns in them even if they have different writers, directors and producers. Themes are easily noticed so knowing what comes next isn't hard. If I am stumped by a movie and can't tell what is going to happen it really bothers me on a deep level. I kind of feel lost if my "prediction" is totally wrong. It also make the movie a bit more enjoyable sometimes. I will just relax after my attempts fail and just watch the movie.

    It is harder to put into words while I am awake and focusing on something than it is to allow things to come to me spontaneously. I don't like being put on the spot to answer things because I don't always know how to say it in a way that others will understand and not just roll their eyes so I wait for something to develop and then I can put it out into the world. Writing for myself is an exception. My diaries are filled with things that flowed easily because no one was putting me on the spot. :/

    I assume I am taking in information, constantly, and a lot of it subconsciously, while awake but in order for it to make more sense I need to sleep. It is like a "whoah, that is my answer" kind of thing. I know I can do Ne too but it is very exhausting to do so and I prefer to filter out all the possibilities and go with what is most probable based on the information I have sorted. It is a time saver. Brainstorming is not my strong point but I don't feel I need to since I will get my solutions and answers my own way.

    I turns out, after some testing, my memory is actually much better than I thought it was.

    Didn't mean to ramble...
    To be fair, many movies follow a specific theme of events to stir up reactions and emotions in the audience. The ideal world turns into a drama and stuff happens and the good guy wins in the end. But then there is also a joker event in the thing that take a specific skill to predict.

    I want to note specifically that nothing can really predict the future in all its elements. When you lived life long enough and have all this experiences you can start to make the shots before they arrived right. You can grasp a bad situation early and turn it from just having experienced that exact thing. Than there is sort of a holistic memory of human kind that store experiences from the past and the present in a more general way. So you do not have to experience a situation still can apply some sort of filter that helps you orient yourself. The memory of Ni is bigger then the sum of experiences of the individual. And everyone use this memory. Some remember where to look up experiences, some remember facts which help them in life. Everyone does Ni.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    To be fair, many movies follow a specific theme of events to stir up reactions and emotions in the audience. The ideal world turns into a drama and stuff happens and the good guy wins in the end. But then there is also a joker event in the thing that take a specific skill to predict.

    I want to note specifically that nothing can really predict the future in all its elements. When you lived life long enough and have all this experiences you can start to make the shots before they arrived right. You can grasp a bad situation early and turn it from just having experienced that exact thing. Than there is sort of a holistic memory of human kind that store experiences from the past and the present in a more general way. So you do not have to experience a situation still can apply some sort of filter that helps you orient yourself. The memory of Ni is bigger then the sum of experiences of the individual. And everyone use this memory. Some remember where to look up experiences, some remember facts which help them in life. Everyone does Ni.

    LOL I was too slow deleting!

    Edit: When I am "predicting" while watching a movie I have to become detached otherwise it doesn't work for me if I am too immersed in the storyline. It is easier to be as an observer, with others around, rather than a participant in the emotions of a movie. I am more focused on the people around me than the screen.

    I let myself get really immersed in movies when I am alone. I prefer watching them alone. I feel like I have to be "on" when others are around. Making jokes and yeah, "predicting". We have funny movie watching practices here in my circle of people. If am alone I can become all the characters or just a chosen few. Other people interfere with that kind of experience. I watch 80% of movies alone.
    Last edited by Aylen; 09-29-2016 at 09:12 PM.

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    LOL I was too slow deleting!
    You want me to delete that wall of text?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    "This is Ni at a level that pretty much any type is capable of."

    Ya. Well. We use all the elements but some to a greater extent, more refined. Ni role people use it to see how events are going to plan out. It is kind of a low level way of Ni. At the highest level small indications follow a train of intuition that can make you store great deal of information with very small amount of data.
    Thank you for summarizing the content of my blog post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    You want me to delete that wall of text?
    Nah, it's out there for a reason. I could have been quicker.

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Thank you for summarizing the content of my blog post.
    I remember liking that post when I was fairly new here. I don't even remember how I found it. I thought it was pretty good for someone who was not Ni base but then again it would be your ignoring function so you have some insight even if you don't value it. I remember smiling when I read this part specifically because there was a time I didn't realize that was what I was doing but now I am older and know it is true. It doesn't diminish it's value as a leading function and I don't think that is what you were saying, just putting it out there.

    Are Ni types good at predicting the future? Many of them think so, but it's not really the case. Successful Ni types are good at predicting the future, simply because they select situations where Ni works really well, and avoid situations where it doesn't.

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






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    I do not think Ne types really value memory. They want everything to follow the path that comes natural at the time and does not make leaps.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I do not think Ne types really value memory. They want everything to follow the path that comes natural at the time and does not make leaps.
    It depends on what you define as 'memory'. I can assure you that Ne base types use a lot of it. However, when they are constructing a mental Ne picture of something, it is not specific memories they refer to, but the abstracts (essence) extracted from those memories, even though they might elaborate on specific memories to explain their insights. But this is not different from what Ni base types do. They too refer to abstracts extracted from their memories. The difference between Ne and Ni types is the type of abstracts: for Ne types the abstracts are static in nature, referring to the non-physical aspects of objects, for Ni types they are dynamic, referring to the non-physical aspects of processes or 'behaviors'.

    Same thing with Se and Si: they too focus on certain 'essences' of phenomena, but again different in nature compared to Ne and Ni.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    It depends on what you define as 'memory'. I can assure you that Ne base types use a lot of it. However, when they are constructing a mental Ne picture of something, it is not specific memories they refer to, but the abstracts (essence) extracted from those memories, even though they might elaborate on specific memories to explain their insights. But this is not different from what Ni base types do. They too refer to abstracts extracted from their memories. The difference between Ne and Ni types is the type of abstracts: for Ne types the abstracts are static in nature, referring to the non-physical aspects of objects, for Ni types they are dynamic, referring to the non-physical aspects of processes or 'behaviors'.

    Same thing with Se and Si: they too focus on certain 'essences' of phenomena, but again different in nature compared to Ne and Ni.
    Well you can not say that each element in themselves have a memory. That is like saying water have memory. Which it kind of got but not stored, it have a history. That is Ni.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Well you can not say that each element in themselves have a memory. That is like saying water have memory. Which it kind of got but not stored, it have a history. That is Ni.
    So tell me, which IE does not have a memory? Or to put it differently, which IE does not rely on memories and experience in attempts at understanding reality (or facets of reality)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    So tell me, which IE does not have a memory? Or to put it differently, which IE does not rely on memories and experience in attempts at understanding reality (or facets of reality)?

    One is basically memory and no IE have memory, the individual got it.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 09-29-2016 at 10:55 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    I don't think of as memory per se. Rather than seeing it as "time," I see it as beyond time, outside of time.

    I've described experiencing as a warehouse full of moving images that splice together. The material in there does not need to be limited to my personal set of memories--that's way too constraining and thus possibly even counter to , which is unrestrained. I also feel it to be cool and distant and not exactly sentimental, the way personal memory might be. Rather, includes personal unconscious material and the stuff of the collective unconscious.

    As I mature, I can make better use of the collective, as I have mapped or catalogued more of the material available to me.

    I can intuit my way into history and meaning via pattern-matching. It's not a timeline approach to history. It's actually a way of cheating time by traveling internally via nexuses that route much differently than linear time and memory in the everyday sense.

    And it moves forward, too.
    I think that's how Ni creative works (the "beyond time" bit is pretty much exactly how 3D functions tend to be described). I don't think Ni in other positions would necessarily work the same way. I do agree with the rest of the description for general Ni though. I would advise everyone here to look up actual Jungian function descriptions from before MBTI times. That's what they're also supposed to be in Socionics and I've found they're pretty accurate. I will warn everyone that the Jungian descriptions of functions are pretty mystical and esoteric, and really don't line up with the MBTI-style popular conceptions or OCEAN traits or what-have-you at all, although they're also pretty concrete and fairly easily measured and actually a lot more well-defined than "personality traits". (I mean, I'm never sure how to answer the ubiquitous "would you prefer a book or a party?" question, since there are a lot of different kinds of books and parties as well as outside events that could influence my decision, for instance).
    Last edited by Verbrannte; 09-29-2016 at 11:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I think that's how Ni creative works (the "beyond time" bit is pretty much exactly how 3D functions tend to be described). I don't think Ni in other positions would necessarily work the same way. I do agree with the rest of the description for general Ni though. I would advise everyone here to look up actual Jungian function descriptions from before MBTI times. That's what they're also supposed to be in Socionics and I've found they're pretty accurate. I will warn everyone that the Jungian descriptions of functions are pretty mystical and esoteric, and really don't line up with the MBTI-style popular conceptions or OCEAN traits or what-have-you at all, although they're also pretty concrete and fairly easily measured and actually a lot more well-defined than "personality traits". (I mean, I'm never sure how to answer the ubiquitous "would you prefer a book or a party?" question, since there are a lot of different kinds of books and parties as well as outside events that could influence my decision, for instance).
    Lets just... Jung was this dude who opened up this field as something 'scientific'. He was a phycologist who interviewed people one and one. His perception is very bias of his POV. MBTI made stereotypes and made descriptions etc. Their 'function theory' is not really strong just a biproduct of basing the types of jungs. Socionics is a other thing where they try to apply type with relations in a logic way using elements and theory of metabolism. Socionics you should actually use other descriptions of the elements to make sense of all this.


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    I know Jung was very much a product of his time (I could probably write a whole essay about this) and I do take issue with a whole lot of things he said. However, I still think the descriptions Jungians/Jungian-affiliated people give of the functions (not necessarily Jung per se) is much more accurate than the things I hear flung around a lot here like "Fe means emotional group atmosphere" and "intuition = creativity and imagination" and, somehow most annoyingly of all, "there's not really a difference between Xe and Xi at all". At least people here are (generally) more nuanced than this at least:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    One is basically memory and no IE have memory, the individual got it.
    Okay, I get it. This is not an information exchange, but you fishing for applause. Smart ass.
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    I can offer my own view of in this context. My memory is "foggy" in the sense that I can't tell you exactly when I "did" something. However, I can tell you if I did something. That's how my memory works. I can tell you what I've done, my only problem is that I can't nail the timeline down. If I could do that reliably I'd pretty much be a master of the universe simply directing my minions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I know Jung was very much a product of his time (I could probably write a whole essay about this) and I do take issue with a whole lot of things he said. However, I still think the descriptions Jungians/Jungian-affiliated people give of the functions (not necessarily Jung per se) is much more accurate than the things I hear flung around a lot here like "Fe means emotional group atmosphere" and "intuition = creativity and imagination" and, somehow most annoyingly of all, "there's not really a difference between Xe and Xi at all". At least people here are (generally) more nuanced than this at least:

    Introverts: "I am a rock, I am an iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisland!"
    Extraverts: "I want to rock and roll all night, and party every day!"
    In socionics they say Fe is expression. I get the feeling you have done 0 research on Socionics.


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    Oh, it does appear some people define it that way, but the original definition is that it is primarily about values (hence xxFx types being called "ethical types"). Emotional expression is a manifestation of it, but not the essence of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    Oh, it does appear some people define it that way, but the original definition is that it is primarily about values (hence xxFx types being called "ethical types"). Emotional expression is a manifestation of it, but not the essence of it.
    That's the socionics definition of it. Augusta's reasoning for calling it "ethical" rather than "feeling" is sort of obscure - her point was that logic is also a subjective experience, i.e. a "feeling." She didn't mean that is literally about ethics, in fact I don't know anybody who would claim that. In any case, it's not about "values" in socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That's the socionics definition of it. Augusta's reasoning for calling it "ethical" rather than "feeling" is sort of obscure - her point was that logic is also a subjective experience, i.e. a "feeling." She didn't mean that is literally about ethics, in fact I don't know anybody who would claim that. In any case, it's not about "values" in socionics.
    Well, it makes more sense when it's about values, so I'll just go make up my own theory if it's not about values. I mean, I thought the whole basis of calling types rational or irrational was that the rational ones had leading functions that involved making judgments, thinking being about epistemic judgments and feeling about situational judgments (see here: http://wals.info/chapter/76), which are also called facts and values. If it's literally just about thinking or feeling we may as well go do MBTI and talk about how cold and unfeeling we all are since we're INTJ Masterminds. I could have sworn I've seen some authors make it about facts/values even if not all do though.
    Last edited by Verbrannte; 10-03-2016 at 03:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    Well, it makes more sense when it's about values, so I'll just go make up my own theory if it's not about values. I mean, I thought the whole basis of calling types rational or irrational was that the rational ones had leading functions that involved making judgments, thinking being about epistemic judgments and feeling about situational judgments (see here: http://wals.info/chapter/76), which are also called facts and values. If it's literally just about thinking or feeling we may as well go do MBTI and talk about how cold and unfeeling we all are since we're INTJ Masterminds. I could have sworn I've seen some authors make it about facts/values even if not all do though.
    Honestly -- the rational/irrational dichotomy is itself rather obscure. I see it as being more closely related to symbolic thinking vs experiential, picture-based thinking, rather than judgments vs perceptions. But in any case, it's not one of the stronger categories in socionics, compared to logic, ethics etc. Don't abandon socionics just because of that

    As for epistemic and situational judgments -- they seem similar from an IM point of view. Roughly speaking, "may" = Ne, "must" = Se (with Ti).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Honestly -- the rational/irrational dichotomy is itself rather obscure. I see it as being more closely related to symbolic thinking vs experiential, picture-based thinking, rather than judgments vs perceptions. But in any case, it's not one of the stronger categories in socionics, compared to logic, ethics etc. Don't abandon socionics just because of that

    As for epistemic and situational judgments -- they seem similar from an IM point of view. Roughly speaking, "may" = Ne, "must" = Se (with Ti).
    But logic, ethics, etc. make pretty much no sense in isolation. Generally everyone can use logic and everyone has feelings, and the type stereotypes are mostly nonsense. I also wasn't going to really abandon socionics so much as continue to study it but fit the stuff into my own framework, since it seems to be divergent enough that I can't call it the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    But logic, ethics, etc. make pretty much no sense in isolation. Generally everyone can use logic and everyone has feelings, and the type stereotypes are mostly nonsense.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why is it hard to accept that the logic/ethics dichotomy is more observable than the rational/irrational dichotomy on the type level? And what does that have to do with "stereotypes"? And if we're talking about the IM elements, logic and ethics are simply more specific and more concrete categories - I don't think anyone would dispute that.

    I also wasn't going to really abandon socionics so much as continue to study it but fit the stuff into my own framework, since it seems to be divergent enough that I can't call it the same thing.
    Well sure, everyone does that. You just have to see who is making the most sense I guess. You seem to not be making much of a distinction between Jung and socionics though, which is why you may be confused and think there is no convergence.

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