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Thread: Cultural Types

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    Default Cultural Types

    The Internet abounds with articles on "how to survive as an introvert in an extroverted world". Since I always felt myself like an outcast, for the longest time I assumed I must be an introvert. I don't like it when people go around with fake smiles and ask "Hi, how are you?" when they don't actually care! People also frequently stereotype cultures as being "introverted" and "extraverted", and... Basically every culture besides Anglo-American and perhaps Latin/South European gets labelled "introverted". After learning a bit about socionics, it occured to me that there really aren't strong preferences for introversion and extraversion in any culture, just a preference for people to be healthy human beings who aren't afraid either to be around people or by themselves (which has nothing to do with where you get your energy). What there is a preference for in various cultures is this: Quadras!

    I can state confidently that Anglo-American culture is a Delta culture. You can be an extremely extraverted person but as long as you're don't a Delta you're not going to quite fit (or fit really badly and painfully). On the other hand, what I always want to call Teutonic culture (attempting to encompass Germany/Austria/Switzerland, I can't think of a less ridiculous term) is a Beta culture, not "more introverted" than Anglo-American. I'm more familiar with these two cultures so here is a list of stereotypes (that are by no means true of anything near every individual) so you can judge for yourself:

    Anglo-American:

    - Does not tend to have different levels of formality
    - No distinction between work/play, "a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down"
    - Dark/"depressing" themes are shunned
    - Extremely casual dress in general
    - Slob/lazy stereotype
    - Light jokes
    - Favorite hobbies are playing video games, watching movies, etc.
    - "Never discuss religion/politics"
    - People tend to be afraid to be opinionated
    - Not serious
    - Cool and in


    Teutonic:

    - Sharp formality distinctions
    - Work first/play later
    - "All these German art songs/opera/poems are about death!"
    - Dress more formal generally
    - Wörk wörk/ORDNUNG MUSS SEIN!
    - Dark and "weird" humor
    - Favorite hobbies are things like gardening that a lot of people consider work
    - Run into cafés and argue about politics for fun
    - Lots of stating random opinions and arguing without much hurt feelings
    - Overly serious
    - Old-fashioned

    As a side note, I think Southeast Asian cultures are gamma but I don't know as much about them. I don't know who is alpha.

    As I said, obviously not everyone born in America is an Alpha or in Germany is a Beta. These cultural/personality mismatches (especially extreme ones) tend to lead to these things:

    - Joining a subculture
    - Become an Xophile ("Xaboo") for a culture with the same personality as you
    - Being a shut-in
    - Excessive Internet communication usage
    - Pretending to be someone you're not and becoming depressed (not necessarily in the clinical sense since it goes away when the stimulus also does)

    And guess what? People from other countries who move to America tend to be strongly Delta. Ditto for Germany/Austria/Switzerland and Beta. I'm fairly confident about Japan/China/Korea and Gamma as well. I think extraverts actually feel this alienation much stronger and this leads a lot of them to mistype as introverts out of not matching their culture's quadra rather than actually being introverts (especially if they're healthy human beings who also like their alone time like healthy introverts also like talking to other people). If you're an introvert you'll find a few other people like you and possibly decently happy shunning social norms together, but if you're an extravert you want to interact with the wider world generally (whether through sub-culture or culture).

    So, what do you all think? You can say anything on the thread topic you want, not just what I said.
    Last edited by Wyrd; 09-23-2016 at 11:36 PM.

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    This is actually a topic I'd had in mind for some time, although I tend to think about it a bit differently. As socionics was developed by a western culture, I get the idea it can't fully grapple with cross-cultural differences, at least in terms of relative interpretation. I've got some thoughts on it but for now I'll just "subscribe". =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    So, what do you all think? You can say anything on the thread topic you want, not just what I said.
    what I said
    Last edited by Shiver; 09-24-2016 at 02:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    This is actually a topic I'd had in mind for some time, although I tend to think about it a bit differently. As socionics was developed by a western culture, I get the idea it can't fully grapple with cross-cultural differences, at least in terms of relative interpretation. I've got some thoughts on it but for now I'll just "subscribe". =)



    what I said
    I think anything that's objectively true should be able to grapple with all cross-cultural differences. Certain physical facts don't stop being true as soon as you go to China. I don't like Big Five because it seems very Americentric. Socionics doesn't seem anywhere-centric so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I assumed I must be an introvert. I don't like it when people go around with fake smiles and ask "Hi, how are you?" when they don't actually care!
    I sometimes think of that as Fe. It's yucky. Some typology tests also mistake that sort of thing for extroversion, and they can't figure out whether I'm an extrovert or an introvert.


    Mine:

    - Does not tend to have different levels of formality
    - No distinction between work/play, "a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down"
    - Extremely casual dress in general
    - Light jokes
    - Favorite hobbies are playing video games, watching movies, etc.
    - Not serious
    - Work first/play later
    - Favorite hobbies are things like [organizing] that a lot of people consider work
    - Run into [chatrooms] and argue about politics for fun
    - Lots of stating random opinions and arguing without much hurt feelings
    - Old-fashioned

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    No, Te/Fi is like that. Fe tends to be public about their true emotions and Fi prefers fake emotions in public and real in private. You come across to me at first glance as ESFj rather than ESTj (yes, Fe as a lead function). Your preferences also seem to match the Alpha quadrant quite well. Your avatar has a person looking at whoever is looking at them which is ridiculously Fe. The way you word things also reminds me of ESFj quite strongly, and of other Alphas I know in general.

    Also, I kind of think now that the British are an Alpha culture despite supposedly speaking the same language as Americans (or maybe just the British guy I know is an Alpha, but Monty Python, Doctor Who, and the British way of telling people off at least come across Alpha). Canadians are definitely still Delta though since there's basically no difference between the English-speaking Canadians and Americans other than that Canadians like hockey and poutine and Americans like fake football and pizza.
    Last edited by Wyrd; 09-24-2016 at 07:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    No, Te/Fi is like that. Fe tends to be public about their true emotions and Fi prefers fake emotions in public and real in private. You come across to me at first glance as ESFj rather than ESTj (yes, Fe as a lead function). Your preferences also seem to match the Alpha quadrant quite well. Your avatar has a person looking at whoever is looking at them which is ridiculously Fe. The way you word things also reminds me of ESFj quite strongly, and of other Alphas I know in general.

    Also, I kind of think now that the British are an Alpha culture despite supposedly speaking the same language as Americans (or maybe just the British guy I know is an Alpha, but Monty Python, Doctor Who, and the British way of telling people off at least come across Alpha). Canadians are definitely still Delta though since there's basically no difference between the English-speaking Canadians and Americans other than that Canadians like hockey and poutine and Americans like fake football and pizza.
    Fe is 'emotional atmosphere' not Fi. But there is a difference between the social instinct and Fe and its very vague. Being nice to everyone and striking up conversations smiling constantly is like the social instinct but probablu a Fe valuer(?). A Fe valuer that has social last can care about this, wanting to be seen as 'worthy and cool' but the smiling looking happy, small talking will not come as naturally. Strangers have asked me why I'm angry when I'm not, and I also got asked "are you sad?" when I was smiling. lol

    Actually I doubt what the difference is between Fe and Fi.
    Last edited by maniac; 09-24-2016 at 08:14 AM.

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    There's a huge difference between Fe and Fi. People with Fe have their genuine emotional expression flow outwards and people with Fi have it flow inwards and have to pull it out to express it. For a concrete example, think of Expressionism vs. Impressionism. Expressionism is Fe and Impressionism is Fi (although Fe and Fi leads don't tend to prefer those styles as much as traditional art due to the strong Judging characteristics, it's still a good way to explain it IMO). I also think Fes tend to get angry more than sad and Fis tend to get sad more than angry. Fis generally just completely don't understand Fes and tend to want to get onto them for being "melodramatic" or such and Fes tend to think that Fis are very awkward, and both think that the other's personal values are all wrong (since Fe tends to focus them on wider society and Fis on individual people). If one has authority over another it tends to go down very, very, badly. I think the two fairly often end up thinking the other are psychopaths just pretending to have emotions as well (explosive aggressive ones for Fe and sulky passive-aggressive for Fi).

    I'm guessing you're xxTp. It tends to be harder to consciously distinguish the introvert and extravert versions of the last function in your ego block IMO because one is already sort of backgrounded and the other is literally PoLR. If one version of something makes you actually uncomfortable while the other is just sort of unusual but pleasing that's the difference between I and E versions of the same.

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    Lol I have a lot to say here. Wish you'd not posted it on a work day.

    I like your characterisarion of Teutonic. Perhaps instead of Anglo-American Id choose Anglo-Saxon.
    go on type me I fuckin dare u

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    Why would people only be able to correctly type people 1 in 5 times? I think that would depend on the individual (possibly on their type/subtype but maybe in other factors). I also seem to be typing people correctly much more often than not so far.

    Well, cultures do have stereotypes, and they tend to line up exactly with quadra stereotypes. That's all I noticed. I also don't think you'll be able to have an exactly equal number of people from all 16 types or 4 quadras developing the theory since I don't even think the types are distributed evenly in the general population, much less amongst people interested in typology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    There's a huge difference between Fe and Fi. People with Fe have their genuine emotional expression flow outwards and people with Fi have it flow inwards and have to pull it out to express it. For a concrete example, think of Expressionism vs. Impressionism. Expressionism is Fe and Impressionism is Fi (although Fe and Fi leads don't tend to prefer those styles as much as traditional art due to the strong Judging characteristics, it's still a good way to explain it IMO). I also think Fes tend to get angry more than sad and Fis tend to get sad more than angry. Fis generally just completely don't understand Fes and tend to want to get onto them for being "melodramatic" or such and Fes tend to think that Fis are very awkward, and both think that the other's personal values are all wrong (since Fe tends to focus them on wider society and Fis on individual people). If one has authority over another it tends to go down very, very, badly. I think the two fairly often end up thinking the other are psychopaths just pretending to have emotions as well (explosive aggressive ones for Fe and sulky passive-aggressive for Fi).

    I'm guessing you're xxTp. It tends to be harder to consciously distinguish the introvert and extravert versions of the last function in your ego block IMO because one is already sort of backgrounded and the other is literally PoLR. If one version of something makes you actually uncomfortable while the other is just sort of unusual but pleasing that's the difference between I and E versions of the same.
    Youre wrong here, Fe is the one that puts on a smile for 'emotional atmosphere', not Fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    The Internet abounds with articles on "how to survive as an introvert in an extroverted world". Since I always felt myself like an outcast, for the longest time I assumed I must be an introvert. I don't like it when people go around with fake smiles and ask "Hi, how are you?" when they don't actually care! People also frequently stereotype cultures as being "introverted" and "extraverted", and... Basically every culture besides Anglo-American and perhaps Latin/South European gets labelled "introverted". After learning a bit about socionics, it occured to me that there really aren't strong preferences for introversion and extraversion in any culture, just a preference for people to be healthy human beings who aren't afraid either to be around people or by themselves (which has nothing to do with where you get your energy). What there is a preference for in various cultures is this: Quadras!

    I can state confidently that Anglo-American culture is a Delta culture. You can be an extremely extraverted person but as long as you're don't a Delta you're not going to quite fit (or fit really badly and painfully). On the other hand, what I always want to call Teutonic culture (attempting to encompass Germany/Austria/Switzerland, I can't think of a less ridiculous term) is a Beta culture, not "more introverted" than Anglo-American. I'm more familiar with these two cultures so here is a list of stereotypes (that are by no means true of anything near every individual) so you can judge for yourself:

    Anglo-American:

    - Does not tend to have different levels of formality
    - No distinction between work/play, "a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down"
    - Dark/"depressing" themes are shunned
    - Extremely casual dress in general
    - Slob/lazy stereotype
    - Light jokes
    - Favorite hobbies are playing video games, watching movies, etc.
    - "Never discuss religion/politics"
    - People tend to be afraid to be opinionated
    - Not serious
    - Cool and in


    Teutonic:

    - Sharp formality distinctions
    - Work first/play later
    - "All these German art songs/opera/poems are about death!"
    - Dress more formal generally
    - Wörk wörk/ORDNUNG MUSS SEIN!
    - Dark and "weird" humor
    - Favorite hobbies are things like gardening that a lot of people consider work
    - Run into cafés and argue about politics for fun
    - Lots of stating random opinions and arguing without much hurt feelings
    - Overly serious
    - Old-fashioned

    As a side note, I think Southeast Asian cultures are gamma but I don't know as much about them. I don't know who is alpha.

    As I said, obviously not everyone born in America is an Alpha or in Germany is a Beta. These cultural/personality mismatches (especially extreme ones) tend to lead to these things:

    - Joining a subculture
    - Become an Xophile ("Xaboo") for a culture with the same personality as you
    - Being a shut-in
    - Excessive Internet communication usage
    - Pretending to be someone you're not and becoming depressed (not necessarily in the clinical sense since it goes away when the stimulus also does)

    And guess what? People from other countries who move to America tend to be strongly Delta. Ditto for Germany/Austria/Switzerland and Beta. I'm fairly confident about Japan/China/Korea and Gamma as well. I think extraverts actually feel this alienation much stronger and this leads a lot of them to mistype as introverts out of not matching their culture's quadra rather than actually being introverts (especially if they're healthy human beings who also like their alone time like healthy introverts also like talking to other people). If you're an introvert you'll find a few other people like you and possibly decently happy shunning social norms together, but if you're an extravert you want to interact with the wider world generally (whether through sub-culture or culture).

    So, what do you all think? You can say anything on the thread topic you want, not just what I said.
    Hi.

    First of all, I agree with your characterisation of Anglo-American societies. In this I'm going to include some others, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. They're reasonably similar. I agree that these cultures produce some kind of commonality in quadra, from my own experience at least, basic assumptions about life and general behaviour, social and interpersonal, are shared and people from these countries get on and become friends much quicker than others. What the anglo-teutonic cultures share, despite their approach to work (which I think you are implying is serious/merry), is a general cultural tendency against laziness. This is true in Scandinavia too (I think!!!), with the Protestant-base countries developing cultures in the 19th century that explicitly shunned rest and glorified labour.
    In times of deep national crisis, Anglo-saxon countries tend towards Gamma. During both world wars and at points during the cold war, English speaking countries adopted for short bursts heavy attitudes, only to abandon them quickly afterwards. Meanwhile, during these periods the teutonic countries kept a more Beta-istic outlook on things.

    I would say that light and not dark humour is probably unique to the US, though, or at least North America. In the other English speaking part of the world sports are also a major hobby. Other than that I think you are spot on. As a wide-group culture, we are pretty against rocking the boat.

    Re: Southeast Asia, these cultures are not similar enough to group as a regional quadra. In my experience I would suggest that Singapore is more of a delta society (heavy influence, values more exploring its opportunities and building its perfect home with very, very strict rules ), Malaysia [national culture vs individual ethnic cultures] is more alpha (Heavy focus on in order to glue everything together, more interested in the stringency of its systems than their real efficacy with a big dose of those things which they think makes their national home their national home, food, natural beauty and traditional aesthetics -- with a quiet, moderated but real sense of pride in diversity ), Thailand I would have to think a bit more aobut. Those are the countries I have real experience with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    - Wörk wörk/ORDNUNG MUSS SEIN!
    Perhaps WHILE they are at work, but in their spare time, Germans are more laid-back and less conformist than Americans imho. And Americans work more and and play less.
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    To confirm what @Kim said:
    https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

    AVERAGE ANNUAL HOURS ACTUALLY WORKED PER WORKER by the OECD Statistics [2015 figures]
    United States (1,790)
    Canada (1,706)
    United Kingdom (1,674)
    Austria (1,625)
    Switzerland (1,590)
    Germany (1,371)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Perhaps WHILE they are at work, but in their spare time, Germans are more laid-back and less conformist than Americans imho. And Americans work more and and play less.
    Yes, that's also a Beta trait. The point of that bullet is that Betas like to work (even if they also like to play even more) while Deltas dislike work. And if you're Fe and therefore more genuine of course it's harder to be conformist.
    Last edited by Wyrd; 09-26-2016 at 07:31 AM.

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    oh god working is so lame and fake. America is so stupid and shitty, easily the stupidest country by far. Fake Oprah self confident smile.

    Burn it to the ground. I wish to start a revolution where people set buildings on fire. Fake middle class offices - completely destroyed in ash. Homes burned- they are just prisons designed by evil jews. Then the banks cut off and prisons shut down. All institutions crumbled and the wild freedom of true individuality and spirit finally released.

    Only narcissists are truly rewarded with the mind controlled concept of "work", because the boundary between self and other doesn't exist for them, therefore they just make everybody else their sock puppets. They find satisfaction over things that are innately shitty because they like having power over people. In a lot of businesses when you complain about somebody, they are promoted. People let the Dark Ones run the world- and that is why the world is shit.

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    That has nothing to do with this thread at all. I wish there were unconstructive/dislike buttons (as well as funny and some other ones).

    Also, look at this: http://thechive.com/2015/09/13/heres...try-11-photos/

    You can actually VI the average face of each country. Countries and cultures are not synonymous but I still think it could reveal something.

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    As an ILI in a Teutonic Beta world - yes, I suffer.

    - Joining a subculture: not really, but tempted
    - Become an Xophile ("Xaboo") for a culture with the same personality as you: check, I am indeed drawn to Asian Culture... a lot.
    - Being a shut-in: check, I love to stay at home
    - Excessive Internet communication usage: check check check I basically don't exist without wifi
    - Pretending to be someone you're not and becoming depressed (not necessarily in the clinical sense since it goes away when the stimulus also does): check, I'm full of pretense. I try to act like an IEI but I am a failure as a merry type.

    In a nutshell: I feel and in fact am worthless here. After getting my degree, the next thing I do is take a plane to Seoul or Busan.
    My face has changed, my heart is moving
    But my camouflage will hide it



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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    As socionics was developed by a western culture, I get the idea it can't fully grapple with cross-cultural differences, at least in terms of relative interpretation.
    You're joking, right? Asian cultures are even more insular and dismissive of other cultures than Western ones are. Also what Schildmaid said -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I think anything that's objectively true should be able to grapple with all cross-cultural differences. Certain physical facts don't stop being true as soon as you go to China. I don't like Big Five because it seems very Americentric. Socionics doesn't seem anywhere-centric so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You're joking, right? Asian cultures are even more insular and dismissive of other cultures than Western ones are.
    This doesn't address what I said about the test itself at all. I'd make the same statement if the test were developed by an eastern culture. Consider this before taking that condescending "tone" with me.

    Also what Schildmaid said -
    "Should" does not equate to "does". I would hesitate to declare any typology theory "objectively true".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    This doesn't address what I said about the test itself at all. I'd make the same statement if the test were developed by an eastern culture. Consider this before taking that condescending "tone" with me.


    "Should" does not equate to "does". I would hesitate to declare any typology theory "objectively true".
    If you don't think any typology theory is objectively true, then what's the point of studying it? Not knowing which one is true, sure, but thinking none of them can be?

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    I didn't say that I don't think they can be. I just think there's room for improvement. Expansion.

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