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Thread: EII-INFj Friendship Advice

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    Default EII-INFj Friendship Advice

    I have an EII friend (26 years old) and initially we hit it off and became very close. We met in a visual arts class, and bonded over art and Japanese culture.

    She is on a limited health plan and can't get a counselor. She is so sensitive to even the minute little differences that I don't know what to say or do.
    Any ideas?

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by sorrows; 01-25-2017 at 09:06 PM.

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    You and she are in a Mirage relationship (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...rage-Relations), which I find can feel very comfortable when just hanging out together, but my mirage partners and I give each other really bad career advice.

    If you want to be super-nice, you could try to find an LSE for her (she got close to having an LSE when she found you, but was slightly off the money), but she is not guaranteed to like him, or him, her.
    Or, you could tell her about Socionics and hand her a description of LSE's and say "This is the guy you want. Find one, spend some time with him, check him out if you don't believe me."
    If this sounds like too much work, maybe it is. Ultimately, don't you have better things to do with your life than to try to fix the world and everyone in it? Maybe she'll find an LSE on her own. She does seem like the kind of person an LSE would want to take care of.

    If your relationship with her is hurting you now, it might be best to put even more space between the two of you, because it is not going to get better.

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Back off from her, she sounds like an emotional vampire.

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    this seems like a NTR issue.

    don't get me wrong, it's okay to be sensitive, but if she's using you for emotional support (and she is, from what i gather) you need to set your boundaries. if that offends her, it's not your problem, it's her's. no one should feel offended by boundaries—that is a serious red flag. if she decides to stop being friends with you, then perhaps it's for the best. people who don't recognize personal boundaries are going to be problematic, in some way or another. overstepping boundaries basically signifies you don't respect them or their needs.

    if i were in your shoes, i'd be brutally honest and say what a poor friend she's been. clearly and succinctly explain what she's done wrong, and how she's made you feel; if she wants the relationship to continue, she needs to change. i don't mean to insinuate you need to be harsh. she might simply be going through a rough time and/or suffering from depression. but that doesn't excuse emotional abuse! you're not obligated to put up with her emotional vampirism, and neither should you feel guilty for setting boundaries—even if she's kind about everything, it is irrelevant. if you've already had an honest talk with her and given her opportunities to change, then the only way for her to learn may be through a hard lesson. i've been in her position, and i didn't even recognize how shitty i was being until i had a wake-up call. by then, it was too late. but, i grew because of it. it was exactly what i needed to hear at that time in life, otherwise i would've stayed obnoxious.


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    (OT but @hag , your avatar is gorgeous <3 )

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    To the OP, I've been like your friend when I was clinically depressed and both AdamStrange and @hag have good advice. Good luck and don't worry

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    Hedgehog in the Fog Vespertine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inabox View Post
    (OT but @hag , your avatar is gorgeous <3 )
    oh, but thank you! it is a still from Hedgehog in the Fog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kye View Post
    Under pressure they become truly intense and exhausting, there is not much you can help with, she needs an LSE.
    yes, especially if they are enneagram 4. they will dig themselves into a hole with their misery. they are exhausted with themselves. it's difficult to reach them at that point. they will take almost everything as an offense, even flattery, and use it to reinforce their own (perceived) inferiority. it takes tremendous willpower for themselves to recognize that a lot of their own misery is self-perpetuated. they don't necessarily need an LSE, but a 'reality check' (cringe) to set them straight again.

    now, if OP's friend truly is depressed, only a therapist can help here. depression is a persisting issue, not merely a bout of sadness. depressed people often underestimate the seriousness of their own symptoms, and may need to be convinced into getting help. don't abandon her, don't enable her, but try to support her unconditionally nonetheless.

    it's too bad that therapy is extraordinarily pricey in the U.S., most therapists don't accept insurance nor are they covered. you pay by the visit and in full. therapy has become a pastime for the rich. but there are other resources available, some therapists will offer a free introductory meeting, i'm not sure about psychiatrists but they might be covered under some insurances.
    Last edited by Vespertine; 09-07-2016 at 09:03 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    oh, but thank you! it is a still from Hedgehog in the Fog.



    yes, especially if they are enneagram 4. they will dig themselves into a hole with their misery. they are exhausted with themselves. it's difficult to reach them at that point. they will take almost everything as an offense, even flattery, and use it to reinforce their own (perceived) inferiority. it takes tremendous willpower for themselves to recognize that a lot of their own misery is self-perpetuated. they don't necessarily need an LSE, but a 'reality check' (cringe) to set them straight again.

    now, if OP's friend truly is depressed, only a therapist can help here. depression is a persisting issue, not merely a bout of sadness. depressed people often underestimate the intensity of their own symptoms, and may need to be convinced into getting help. don't abandon her, don't enable her, but try to support her unconditionally nonetheless.

    it's too bad that therapy is extraordinarily pricey in the U.S., most therapists don't accept insurance nor are they covered. you pay by the visit and in full. therapy has become a pastime for the rich.
    Yes that is correct. My sister is a 3w4

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    Wow. Thank you for all of your for your input.
    Last edited by sorrows; 01-25-2017 at 09:07 PM.

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    Arete GuavaDrunk's Avatar
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    Reason is a whore.

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    GuavaDrunk- I will use some of the script from those articles. Thanks!

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    Understanding one's impact on another can be challenging for a Se-PoLR, especially with an absence of external input. The imagination of possibilities, while surprisingly accurate at times, can build a misleading internal framework, too. Her habits of how she treats you can get very far from the reality of what they need to be.

    To emulate an LSE (and thus perhaps have the best chance at penetrating her haze), I might try saying matter-of-factly how what she does (or doesn't do) makes you feel (the feeling part might be easier to articulate since you're ESE). And then suggest some concrete alternatives that would make you feel better. If you can, say exactly what you're willing to do and what you don't want to do, and then what you'd like from her. It probably won't go over well in the moment, but minimizing your own emotional output for that conversation will help minimize damage. Don't let it turn into a fight. It sounds unfair, especially since you're taking on yet another emotional labor plus you have your own feelings to tend. But one positive factor is that at least you can set some explicit boundaries.

    Side note: LSEs supposedly have angry outbursts when they're overly-upset. Something like that could indeed jar her into greater awareness, but I'm not sure it would have the best long-term effect. The problem with outbursts is things can get said that aren't really true. And this situation seems to need loving truth.

    If that conversation goes really badly and she is super offended then you might need to let her go for awhile. After she calms down and absorbs what she can of your words (this is why it's important to be super clear, with a minimum of emotions to confuse the matter) and if she has a desire to be healthy, her internal framework as it applies to you might shift and you could slowly test out more contact again. It's important during that phase that you be kind but firm and stick to exactly what you said in the boundary-setting conversation. So it's important you know what you want.



    Hag said a lot of what I just said, I realize.

    In any case, I admire you for wanting to both help her and be healthy yourself. Good job!
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    Wow. Thank you for all of your for your input.
    I did introduce her to socionics and she finds it somewhat interesting, but not much.
    It sounds like the best thing to do is to say I can't help any longer and to be honest.
    However, she is very reactionary! Which is why I have just avoided her. She is very easily offended.
    I had the feeling if I needed to address this issue it would be a large overreaction. She can't seem to realize when she is wrong either...unless someone else points it out to her.
    if she's so easily offended, there may be no way to approach the issue without her getting upset. i wouldn't worry about it too much—with some people there's no winning. just do your best!


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    Minde, thank you. I do need to be clear and gentle. The fun friendship has been over for some time (years). I don't think we can ever get back to that because too much has happened.
    Last edited by sorrows; 09-07-2016 at 11:48 PM.

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    @sorrowsofyoungwerther I read what you wrote before you edited and I wanted to say that it does sound unhealthy Se-PoLR-ish of her. And also / especially that you shouldn't feel bad about your own interests. You do not sound at all like a shallow person.
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    also note, I've been in op's friend's place and ... can we not assume that duality is magical, lol? I was clinically depressed when I had problems like the op's friend and what I would have needed was some of mental health help ( @hag, you made the best points) .

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    Duality is certainly NOT magical. However, this is a socionics forum and sometimes tailoring an approach according to type can help. Sometimes.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    I agree duality is not magical.
    Last edited by sorrows; 01-02-2017 at 02:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inabox View Post
    also note, I've been in op's friend's place and ... can we not assume that duality is magical, lol? I was clinically depressed when I had problems like the op's friend and what I would have needed was some of mental health help ( @hag, you made the best points) .
    i agree with you. i think it is more constructive to try and take upon one's dual characteristics unto themselves, than to go out searching for a dual individual (who may not actually be their dual! mistyping always remains a possibility).

    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    She struggles with staying focused on goals, social situations,confrontation or criticisms of any kind, and homework. She seems to be offending people unintentionally and has trouble following instructions in school. At first I thought she might just need to grow up, but it never gets better.
    this resembles the symptoms of chronic depression. when i was depressed, i was convinced everybody found me utterly hateful, and negative reactions to me only seemed to reinforce that; in contrast, positive reactions were flippantly regarded as insincere flattery. in almost a self-prophetic way, everything deteriorated for me—health, grades, relationships, et cetera. i took that as evidence of my own inferiority; it was a self-defeating cycle. it coincides with confirmation bias, and, to a lesser extent, synchronicity—in that you perceive only what you want to, in this case that which supports your current self-image. and, naturally, when you have zero motivation to literally do anything, your school performance takes a dive.

    it may not be that she is offending people, but rather she is projecting her own self-hatred onto them (well, if it's by her own account that she offended them. if she really did, disregard this). her hurtful criticisms of other people could also be a manifestation of this. some people act as though their own poor self-image gives them the entitlement to bring others down, too. of course, depression doesn't justify this. it further reinforces that she's in need of mental health support.

    and @sorrowsofyoungwerther , it's understandable to feel that you want the relationship to end. sometimes people outgrow each other. it's an organic process, and there's nothing to feel guilty about. it's not shallow to want friends on the same wavelength as you. perhaps putting some distance between you and her is the best course of action after all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    You and she are in a Mirage relationship (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...rage-Relations), which I find can feel very comfortable when just hanging out together, but my mirage partners and I give each other really bad career advice.

    If you want to be super-nice, you could try to find an LSE for her (she got close to having an LSE when she found you, but was slightly off the money), but she is not guaranteed to like him, or him, her.
    Or, you could tell her about Socionics and hand her a description of LSE's and say "This is the guy you want. Find one, spend some time with him, check him out if you don't believe me."
    If this sounds like too much work, maybe it is. Ultimately, don't you have better things to do with your life than to try to fix the world and everyone in it? Maybe she'll find an LSE on her own. She does seem like the kind of person an LSE would want to take care of.

    If your relationship with her is hurting you now, it might be best to put even more space between the two of you, because it is not going to get better.
    Haha lol let's be honest guys duality isn't a magic bullet, there are equal possibilities that it could tank.

    However the LSE is a strange alien to EII, contrary to what people actually think, they don't process the emotional BS EII spew out. They don't comflate the emotionality since it's none existent in them, this is the reason there is no risk of clashing as is between the ESE and EII. This is very fascinating when you gradually learn to observe these facts about them.

    An important asterisk for favourable interaction are that the LSE must be dualised, willing to embrace the alien EII, whilst the EII who doesn't seem to be from the looks of it, must be willing to take a leap of faith with the proposal, if you have a dualised LSE on hand.

    What the EII will find is that the LSE is unaffected by such emotional issues, being rather active and busy with their chaotic demands life affirms. They'll see a ruler stern and incontrol of their territory.
    Last edited by Soupman; 09-21-2016 at 09:19 PM.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I'm usually very good at putting my interests and complaints aside to be a friend and a companion, to listen and take in the emotional concerns of the friend. So, I can't relate to this thread

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    LSE let's my emotions run their course while being supportive that is by "making sure things are right there ready and waiting." Organized lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm usually very good at putting my interests and complaints aside to be a friend and a companion, to listen and take in the emotional concerns of the friend. So, I can't relate to this thread
    Well you are a healthy person so it is to be expected

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm usually very good at putting my interests and complaints aside to be a friend and a companion, to listen and take in the emotional concerns of the friend. So, I can't relate to this thread
    How do you stand being among the mortals all day?

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    I suggest you tell her to write down how she feels and attempt to make some order from the chaos. You should also perhaps tell her that she would benefit from engaging in many of the activities you both used to enjoy.
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    "Sometimes I will honestly tell her I think she is in the wrong. When that happens the conversation comes to a pretty quick end" That's not a good sign. And it's NTR, as I don't know of any LSEs who would shy away from telling someone they're wrong.

    But please send your friend to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    ..........She struggles with staying focused on goals, social situations,confrontation or criticisms of any kind, and homework. She seems to be offending people unintentionally and has trouble following instructions in school............She doesn't even realize sometimes she is insulting me, by criticizing them........
    This doesn't sound like any normal EII that I know. You may be dealing with a person that has a psychological condition or illness, which can also obscure the determination of type.

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