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Thread: ISTp's view of ENTps: are ILEs evil?

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    Default ISTp's view of ENTps: are ILEs evil?

    I know all ENTPs cant be bad, but in my life experience so far I havent found one ENTP that doesnt lie occasionally. I hate liars and appreciate honesty so I find them to be very shady. My brother is an ENTP and he manipulates everyone around him to get his way. Osama Bin Laden is an ENTP. Bill Clinton who cheated on his wife and probably still does is an ENTP. I equate this shadyness with evil, perhaps wrongly so. Please help me to understand their ways? The ones I know seem purely self serving machines that dont even need friends, only people to be used as temporary tools in life that can be replaced. It took me a while before I knew about socionics to realize each ENTP in my life was using me in one way or another. What a way to live.
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    "I know all ENTPs cant be bad, but in my life experience so far I havent found one ENTP that doesnt lie occasionally."

    Who doesn't lie "occasionally"?

    "Osama Bin Laden is an ENTP."

    An assumption with no data to back it up what-so-ever besides some sort of vague means of typing through visual identification.

    "Bill Clinton who cheated on his wife and probably still does is an ENTP."

    Also an assumption; I have no idea where you got this one from, though.

    "The ones I know seem purely self serving machines that dont even need friends, only people to be used as temporary tools in life that can be replaced. It took me a while before I knew about socionics to realize each ENTP in my life was using me in one way or another. What a way to live."

    The only ENTp I know well is actually a rather caring fellow, and will always help you when your down, providing that he isn't as well, which is usually the case; another sort of ENTp I've met, though, does seem to fit this model, though I am uncertain of whether he is an ENTj or an ENTp

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    Creepy-Ice

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    No matter what I come out looking like I am generalizing. Unfortunately I am an ISTP and learn pretty much only from experiencing. What I have experienced thus far from my interaction with ENTPs has led to a negative perception. Good this be due to the "maturing" that they supposedly only undergo in their 30's and 40's? I am young and am basing this on my interaction with ENTPs roughly around my age (20).

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    dundundundahdahdundun
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    Ice Ice Baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    dundundundahdahdundun
    dundundundahdahdundun

    Ice Ice Baby.


    oh, the sun shone much brighter on the early nineties.

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    I am ENTp and I do not lie any more than anyone else ... however, I tend to get away with it when I am not so honest except when dealing with sensible types; but, ironically only other intuitive types seem to be fooled by other intuitive types. For some reason intuitive types do not have the ability to tell when someone is always up to something quite as often as sensible types.

    I've learned to be really open with sensible types, they respect you more ... it seems to be the opposite when dealing with other intuitive types, who seem to be content with not always knowing a whole lot about a person and sometimes enjoy that fact; something about mystery just really intrigues alot of intuitive types. Sensible types do not typically like that in a person.

    That, and some intuitive types tend to get bored of people they know well, atleast it is that way with ENTps ..

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    I am an ENTp and I used to lie a lot back in high school, but now I am almost totally honest with everyone. The thing to keep in mind is that a liar hurts him or herself the most by not only directing the dishonesty outward, but almost always also directing it towards the self. A liar lies to him or herself more than anyone else!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean.
    The thing to keep in mind is that a liar hurts him or herself the most by not only directing the dishonesty outward, but almost always also directing it towards the self. A liar lies to him or herself more than anyone else!
    Crap, then I'm in for some hell later in life...

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    Creepy-April

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    ENFP don't really lie that often (it is not really type's quality) but they have such a vivid imagination that it sometimes leads them to a wrong direction

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    dfgd

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    Being angry with ENFP's "lies" is the same as being angry with kid's fantasies.
    Tom Sawyer is a classical ENFP and so was Mark Twain.

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    I'm sorry, but I used to know couple of dishonest ENFp's in the past and they can be very manipulative.

    Type may influence the type of manipulation, but manipulation in general can be found in any type.

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    Default AH yes, true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    I'm sorry, but I used to know couple of dishonest ENFp's in the past and they can be very manipulative.

    Type may influence the type of manipulation, but manipulation in general can be found in any type.
    I definately agree.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    I'm sorry, but I used to know couple of dishonest ENFp's in the past and they can be very manipulative.

    Type may influence the type of manipulation, but manipulation in general can be found in any type.
    What type of manipulation do you suggest for ISTPs for example? Or ENFJs?

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    ENTP's may lie to get their way but at least in general they like most people and mean no harm to them... at least that's my experience... ENFP's, on the other hand, don't need much in order to "not like" someone. When that happens they manipulate to "neutralize" the other person.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Creepy-IcE

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    I am an ENTp and I used to lie a lot back in high school, but now I am almost totally honest with everyone. The thing to keep in mind is that a liar hurts him or herself the most by not only directing the dishonesty outward, but almost always also directing it towards the self. A liar lies to him or herself more than anyone else!
    Jim Bean, I notice that... The ENTPs I know can make a deal with their conscience in a way that I can only describe is scary. They lie to themselves as much as they lie outwardly. I am in my early 20s, which explains why I have had such bad encounters. From what Ive heard it takes 30-40 years before the (AVERAGE) ENTP smartens up. I notice it more then others because I am really good at picking up voice inflexions and other indicators (im an ISTP so Im pretty good at observing). It was funny though, Ive asked 2 ENTPs in cases where I knew for a fact they lied to me if they lied to me, when they said I no I said I now theyve lied to me, still no. So it was like they lied themselves into believing otherwise. Thats the scary part for me. From what Ive read on ENTP.org's forums I think it stems from a compensatory insecurity. They tend to be insecure but have an artifical shield of pride/ego over it. Under that shield is a insecure person desperate to be loved and starving for attention. I dont mean to sound so harsh, ENTPs please do not take offense as you so often do, it is merely an observation. Another thing, you want to do something wild in bed, call an ENTP, they are open to a lot of things for whatever reason (can u say threesome? lol).

    This sort of explains why they have the ISFP dual. An ISFP is very tolerant and loving, exactly what the ENTP needs.

    In no way do I mean to hate on ENTPs, once again.


    NOW as for ENFPs.... What can I say without being biased on this personality since they are my duals? lol

    I love ENFPs, they get me out of my shell and usually laugh at my jokes and have a great sense of humour and simply love life as I do. I have observed ENFPs manipulate my emotions, but its almost as if I like it, because Ive never seen them use their powers for evil, only good . They are such great mimicks and I think its their ability to get in peoples shoes which gives them that gift of being able to change other's emotions.

    Of course all personality types have lied at one point or another, but when its a pattern its a pattern, Im sorry (minus personality disorders that anyone can be have). Everyone is guilty at one point or another...

    Everytype has their plus and minus, good and bad. I think mine is the inferior feeling, which I definitely notice. I can never tell what other people are feeling and when I was in my teens I would provoke people (not with lies but surprising phrases or whatever else you can pretty much think of) to see what their emotions were at the time. I guess it was so I could understand people more, a soft spot for any ISTP. Our strength is also our weakness though, we all would make great hit men I swear.

    I guess my point is this, the more socially acceptable your weakness is the less people will rag on you for having it. Obiously lying is one of the worst things a lot of people's lists, especially for relationships. Therefore ENTPs are likely to be more ridiculed for their actions and behaviour then another type who seems to have other intentions or approaches their intentions in an alternative way.

    A made up example: Say an ENTP had a conflict with friend and they were both in a group of friends. That ENTP would probably silently go around the others and talk crap about them behind their back. Now say an ISTP had a conflict with that same person and belonged to that same group of friends. Although not vengeful, if provoked enough the ISTP would search for a strategy to perhaps destroy their reputation in public. The friend might say something dumb and the ISTP could immediately bounce on it and say something witty about their dumb statement getting the others to laugh in the group to laugh at the friend. Public humiliation would be more satisfying to me at least . The reason I say if provoked enough is a lot of others need just a tad provokation and some a lot. Some others like INFJs may merely avoid the conflict.

    I seem to have way longer posts late at nite for some reason... yawwwn.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Creepy-IcE2Lazy2Login

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    On second though, the entire Delta could seem to have a childish spirit to others in the socion.

    The way we go about business in everyday life.

    But thats for another thread

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    I take great exception to that generalization of ENFP's. Manipulation, I think has been perpetuated more by ENTJ"s that I have known than by ENFP's.

    And, if you read the profile closely...ENFP's have a deeper ethic concering those things than any ENTJ.

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    IcePick wrote:
    I hate liars and appreciate honesty so I find them [ENTPs] to be very shady
    Indeed. We have many ideas and they are instant. These ideas are vague and sometimes are connected to real facts and sometimes are not. So, when we're talking about something that is in our domain of knowledge, then we make factual errors. We do that because:
    1. We describe our visions. We memorize visual material the best. All facts may not be represented visually.
    2. Visions are vague and it takes time to connect them properly to facts and to check these connections. We usually don't take enough time doing this.
    So, an ENTP may lie if he/she doesn't check all the connections with facts. This may be even done unintentionally and/or unnoticed.
    drake
    --Dilemmas are illusions.

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    Intersting.. I like how a lot of the ENTPs are saying they have lied before but many have changed down the road.

    As for ENFPs, knowing a few I can see how they manpulate emotions... Ive never seen the bad side of that and sufferend from a negative manipulation of emotions.

    I am of course biased because they are my dual..

    Someone asked how ISTPs manipulate... We dont manipulate so much as we will shun the another person. Im not saying we are any better then ENTPs, we are worst in many areas. HOWEVER I do know that this shunning is a form of manipulation. Say the ISTP feels wronged by someone, they will become ignore that person or become self destructive as a twisted way of (see what you did?). I dont know if that makes sense but it explains why ISTPs can be perceived to be anti social...

    Im glad this thread hasnt gone sour, it is interesting to see everyone's thoughts. To be honest I was hoping it wouldnt but expecting the worst
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    I have been accused of lying before when I did not get all the facts straight. I did not do it intentionally, just sort of the way things come out of my mouth sometimes is not totally accurate factualwise.

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    I guess because ISTPs choose their words very carefully, so as not be misunderstood, I cannot see that point of view where you say words that you do not purposely mean to be unfactual.

    Its just, if u know its not factual, unless there is some purpose to manipulate the facts in another's head to serve a purpose, why else would you say it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
    I guess because ISTPs choose their words very carefully, so as not be misunderstood, I cannot see that point of view where you say words that you do not purposely mean to be unfactual.

    Its just, if u know its not factual, unless there is some purpose to manipulate the facts in another's head to serve a purpose, why else would you say it...
    That is not the point, the point is that ENTps sometimes go bizarro on their divergent thinking functions resulting in a distorted reality. Technically, they are not lying, because they believe what it is that they are saying. But, that does not necessarily stop people from accusing them of not telling the truth.

    Most of the times the way that this occurs in connection to a totally harmless sometimes funny even that no one makes a big deal about, and they just think the ENTp is just being goofy and telling tall-tail, and no one takes the ENTp seriously anyways. So, I suppose you can not really say it is a bad thing, except that the ENTp may start believeing his or her own distorted reality. That could be the bad part.

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    ENTps often end thinking they are saying one thing, but are actually saying another, as far as I can tell.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    That truly blows my mind... I cannot imagine distorting my reality. I can see how it gives them great new ideas. However, the combination of absent mindedness and distorting your own reality seems like such a dangerous concept to me. Its as if you can get away with anything, and justify it. Thats all I cant get. I guess I am trying to put myself in your shoes though.


    Oh and while I have your attention ENTPs: Do you guys find that you didnt test ENTP all the time? I find ENTPs are the ones with the most varied test results. Also would you ever mistest yourself because you want to be another profile?

    I havent slept in 24 hours, hope this was coherent enough .




    I just dont get it
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    Most of the times the way that this occurs in connection to a totally harmless sometimes funny even that no one makes a big deal about, and they just think the ENTp is just being goofy and telling tall-tail, and no one takes the ENTp seriously anyways. So, I suppose you can not really say it is a bad thing, except that the ENTp may start believeing his or her own distorted reality. That could be the bad part.
    I know what you're talking about here, ******. I have a ENTP friend and he's SUPER fast at making connections. It's freaky. I can hint at something or give him just a little information about something he had some previous knowledge about and in a matter of seconds he has the whole puzzle figured out with (very often) the correct answer. I have to be very careful what I say around him because on a few occasions he's figured out things that he really shouldn't know.

    I can totally see what you're talking about concerning believing a distorted reality. I think what happens is the ENTP puts these bits and pieces of information together in a way that seems completely logical to them, but in actuality they're not seeing the whole picture because there are still a few pieces left out of the puzzle. Often I don't think the ENTP needs those last few puzzle pieces, but there are times they do and they make assumptions to fill in the gaps which creates the distorted reality.

    I can see how a person could see the ENTP as somewhat dishonest especially if they'd made some incorrect assumptions about someone and decided to spread it around. Really, I don't think the ENTP intends to be dishonest, it's just that sometimes the bits of information don't connect together as they should in the ENTP's head.

    *I was reading back through some of the posts and, also, what drake said is very close to what I was talking about here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
    Oh and while I have your attention ENTPs: Do you guys find that you didnt test ENTP all the time? I find ENTPs are the ones with the most varied test results. Also would you ever mistest yourself because you want to be another profile?
    For some reason I tested INTj more than anything, and I use to think that I was INTj. But, I am clearly not INTj ... I have recently concluded that the fact that I tested INTj was because of a flaw in the majority of internet typology test in the way that they order function in blocks.

    The tests would get correct, but would order the block incorrectly to be INTj and not ENTp ...

    I have also tested functionally ENFj, even on my own personal typology test, but I am clearly not ENFj, either ...

    The only thing that I could be is ENTp, and I am 100% certain of that now.

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    By the way, I think those of you who are flipping out, and saying that the way that ENTps sometime unintentionally distort data in their minds is dangerous have little clue what you are talking about. You are making a bigger deal out of it than you really should.

    It is actually rather easy to tell when an ENTp is telling you distorted information without realizing it, but they do not always see it themselves. People who know ENTps well know when to take an ENTp seriously, and when not to. ENTps are about as honest or as dishonest as any other type, it just does not do them justice to stereotype them in this way.


    Hence, what I wrote in my own typological description of ENTps -
    Found here: oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=833

    "ENTps are the intuitive protectors of society. They do not want to see people being exploited out of ignorance or to see the unmerciful destruction of individuals for the gain of a chosen few. ENTps want everyone to be strong, independant, and able to stand on their own. They can use their intuitive understanding of situations and their ability to see the internal workings beyond smoke and mirrors, and to warn of danger. However, they can at times see danger where none really exist, which often causes people to not take them seriously. But, ENTps really want the best for others, even in a world that does not really understand them or really cares to for that matter. "

    If you believe that ENTps are bad news, you are dead wrong ... most people just do not understand them, probably one of the reasons that this thread was created to begin with.

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    ******, I apologize if I was giving the wrong impression. I have absolutely nothing against ENTP's. I believe one of my closest guy friends to be an ENTP. I'm actually very amazed at the way his mind works and the ability he has to come up with the things that he does. When he says something is going to happen I listen because he's right a lot of the time. I was just saying that I could see how they may distort information without realizing it, because I've witnessed my friend do it. The honest truth is that he's right much more often than he's not. I respect him very much.

    I don't think he's in any way out to get people and in no way do I think ENTP's are bad news, or liars. Not at all. I totally and completely agree with you when you say people don't understand ENTP's. I've witnessed that as well. I've seen times when my friend would say or do something and offend someone without even realizing it. He seriously meant no harm, but he didn't realize how he was coming off to people. In the past he's been baffled as to why certain people don't like him. He's even afraid to get into romantic relationships because he's afraid of what he'll do to offend the girl and scare her away.

    I apologize if my previous post came off as harsh in any way, it was not my intention. It's just that some things people (those people being ENTP's) were saying made a lot of sense when comparing what was said to what I've observed about my ENTP friend, and I don't think of it as a bad thing. He's not a bad person at all. I'm definitely not here to bash anyone or put anyone down. Again, I apologize. Perhaps I put my 2 cents in when I shouldn't have. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadia
    ******, I apologize if I was giving the wrong impression. I have absolutely nothing against ENTP's. I believe one of my closest guy friends to be an ENTP. I'm actually very amazed at the way his mind works and the ability he has to come up with the things that he does. When he says something is going to happen I listen because he's right a lot of the time. I was just saying that I could see how they may distort information without realizing it, because I've witnessed my friend do it. The honest truth is that he's right much more often than he's not. I respect him very much.

    I don't think he's in any way out to get people and in no way do I think ENTP's are bad news, or liars. Not at all. I totally and completely agree with you when you say people don't understand ENTP's. I've witnessed that as well. I've seen times when my friend would say or do something and offend someone without even realizing it. He seriously meant no harm, but he didn't realize how he was coming off to people. In the past he's been baffled as to why certain people don't like him. He's even afraid to get into romantic relationships because he's afraid of what he'll do to offend the girl and scare her away.

    I apologize if my previous post came off as harsh in any way, it was not my intention. It's just that some things people (those people being ENTP's) were saying made a lot of sense when comparing what was said to what I've observed about my ENTP friend, and I don't think of it as a bad thing. He's not a bad person at all. I'm definitely not here to bash anyone or put anyone down. Again, I apologize. Perhaps I put my 2 cents in when I shouldn't have. Sorry.
    Ohhh, that produced a stronger reaction than I thought ... I do not think you did anything wrong per say. I was not even really aiming that at you.
    But, if you feel you should apologize, then I accept that fact. It is for your own personal benefit anyhow.

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    Yes I started this thread because I do not get ENTPs, and becaues of this have had some bad experiences with some.

    They seem to have a "i can do no wrong but I can be victimized" attitude. I even mentioned how ISTPs can also manipulate in much more subtle way. This is not an ENTP bashing thread, been there done that, got the t-shirt, useless. I just am trying to purely understand how you can distort facts in your head to the point where you forget the original form of the data, and it appears as a lie to everyone else subjected to the misinformation.



    Arcadia he was after my ass!
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    On second thought, I shouldnt have made the topic name so provoking though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
    I just am trying to purely understand how you can distort facts in your head to the point where you forget the original form of the data, and it appears as a lie to everyone else subjected to the misinformation.
    Well, as an ENTp I have been personally accused of lying at times when I did not think I was lying. So, I know what you are talking about by people accusing ENTps of lying. It has happened.

    All I can say to the matter is that when I have been accused of lying in the way that the context of this thread describes, it was usually in result of the way that I perceived and connected events together in my mind. ENTps were not given the gift of asymetrical conceptual connection of concepts for nothing, but if something happens to where an ENTp has not been able to perceive all that has happened or was not able to gather all of the fact or clues, conceptual gaps get filled inside of the ENTps mind in a way not even they realize happens because it is unconsciouce activity. They can be accused of lying when in fact they had just connected things in their mind that are not in accord with what actually takes or took place in reality.

    So, I suppose whether you would consider that lying or not is a meer matter of opinion and subject to what sort of type you are and what sort of relationship you have with them. I have not really known any ISTps, so I have really nothing good or bad to say about them myself personally.

  35. #35

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    That was one of the most intersting posts Ive read on ANY forum. The way you explained it... WOW, what a way to live. That explains why they get plenty of new ideas and all that. I cant see how it affects memory so badly though.

    Fascinating.
    {♠x<º))))><¸.·´¯`·.¸IcEPiCk¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>x♠ }

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    here's a new twist for you all: i am a female entp and i am dating a male istp. i was previously married to an isfp.

    first, i'd like to say that all types have good people and bad people, and there are so many other factors beyond type that govern whether they are healthy in their type or whether they represent the worst qualities of their type. so let's not forget that and hold a person's type against him or her based on previous unfortunate experiences.

    that being said, entps do like to play with ideas and scenarios and put pieces together in new and interesting ways. we can hold on to multiple seemingly (to others) contradictory notions in our heads and not feel conflicted about it. i understand from reading about type that bad people will use this to manipulate situations and justify their own decisions or behavior after the fact. i know that sometimes i may make a decision based on a gut feeling and then figure out why it makes logical sense after the fact. there is a strong urge to examine and make sense of the world, a bottomless well of curiosity and enjoyment of ideas and new things.

    the isfp in my life would say, "but several months ago you said x." and i would say, "well, that was honestly how i felt back then. and now i don't feel that way anymore." that was not a lie, it was just that things had changed and he was assuming i was still where i was all those months before.

    i have also been in situations where i didn't know all the facts, and per my type i was open to speculate about the possible causes or links or other unknown facts. however, i have never had a hard time keeping that stuff separate from reality at all. there was a time when i had a leading theory that i thought was the most likely scenario and friends thought i had accepted it as fact without knowing. in that case it was a difference in perspective mixed with miscommunication, i think. after we all gathered more facts, the s contingent was much happier.

    i also agree that everyone lies to some degree in life. i remember lying a bit in grade school and quickly figured out that it simply doesn't work. since then i have always strived to be honest as much as i can without being cruel. one of my best friends is also an entp (quite a bit more e and t than i am) and he is extremely honest, perhaps even to a fault. he is quick to put facts and ideas together and jump to conclusions or make judgements, and i often find myself suggesting restraint and putting himself into the other person's shoes to be more sympathetic. he has a good heart and a willingness to hear the other side of the story. sometimes when i have to tell him hard truths he doesn't like it, but he comes around soon afterward to seeing my side of things. another great thing is that we never take these informational / intellectual exchanges personally.

    as for dating the istp, it's tricky. when he gets angry, even over little things, he doesn't want to talk about it and instead prefers to hide in his proverbial shell. i just want him to tell me he's mad instead of shutting me out, even just asking for space. he's completely honest (also to a fault) which i love and i know that we have no secrets or lies between us. i have a greater need for privacy in my life, but not out of hiding anything from him. i can see where demonstrating my feelings is more important to him than telling him my feelings, whereas i need to hear how he feels to feel reassured. we've both made some changes to try to make it work. i love his groundedness whereas my thoughts can go in so many different directions. at the same time, i think he appreciates that i can ignore his frequent surliness and cheer him up. it's a challenge... so wish us luck!

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    i certainly wish u luck...
    {♠x<º))))><¸.·´¯`·.¸IcEPiCk¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>x♠ }

  38. #38
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    kibbles & bits.
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    sloan - rcuei

  39. #39

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    if i catch it I dont bother telling an ENFP

    its so perfect
    {♠x<º))))><¸.·´¯`·.¸IcEPiCk¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>x♠ }

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    People lie about what is not considered important to them when the authorities on the topic aren't around. F types make up things about mechanics to sound cool, T type make up things about being able to understand peoples feelings and relations to feel special. One time I was talking to 2 other guys and one of them ISFj was talking out of his ass about cars and did it in a tone which suggested that what he was saying isn't important however he knows it anyways... and I was standing there turning red! He realized this and felt shame, and I went ahead and fixed the damage he did by explaining the facts. But by doing what he did he implied that my ego was not important and could be used for an ego boost. ENTp's have a trouble seeing themselves and sometimes dont know their own potentials which is one of the reasons they have feelings of inferiority. They can also confuse past things they imagined vs past events, because the recollection process is intuitive and works the same way. I can intuit back to an event, the same way i can intuit back to an imagined simulation. Its sorta like using the same one subject notebook for every subject in school, of course you will have trouble separating us history one from us history two. Sometimes ENTp's will hype themselves up about their future and project the image of success before they achieve that goal, then when they use up the image they loose motivation to push forward to making that goal happen, because in their mind the reward has already been dispensed, so why try and get the same thing?
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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