SLE-IEI vs EIE-LSI Duality

[Tigerfadder]

The first one is about directions, moving forward, evolving, exploring.
Other one is about establishing, stabilizing, ruling.

[Myst]

The first one is about directions, moving forward, evolving, exploring.
Other one is about establishing, stabilizing, ruling.

Hm dunno, I can't say I relate to either one more.

[Tigerfadder]

Actually I have very little experience with duality for EIE and LSI. The idea would be from the socion that those would find new ideas and establish.

[scio]

Can someone elaborate on the differences? Very curious about how the differences manifest.
I'm sure it's not as literal as the descriptions, I'd just like to know further in depth about the couples goals, what the partners do for eachother, how they interact, etc.
I'd like to know based on experience, if possible, so examples would be the most helpful!

[Myst]

Actually I have very little experience with duality for EIE and LSI. The idea would be from the socion that those would find new ideas and establish.

So this thread came up again. OK hmm so I'm about establishing some stuff but also improving further... which requires at least a little exploring and it definitely involves moving forward. So yeah, my answer is still the same, I can't say I relate to either one more.

Can someone elaborate on the differences? Very curious about how the differences manifest.
I'm sure it's not as literal as the descriptions, I'd just like to know further in depth about the couples goals, what the partners do for eachother, how they interact, etc.
I'd like to know based on experience, if possible, so examples would be the most helpful!

I liked how @lynn put it before here (check this post after that too and a few more bits later in that same thread might also be interesting to you). Though this is more from the beta ST's pov than from the beta NF's pov in terms of what the partners give each other because the topic was about comparing the two beta ST types but there are hints for the latter too. From an IEI's pov, btw, so take that into account when reading the following quotes wherever IEI and EIE approaches are compared.

Quotes for the main bits from that convo:

"hm .. what i wonder about (because it was very noticeable with the LSIs i met recently) that all LSIs really seek this grandiose Fe vision they can work towards to. and just like their dual EIE they are not willing to readjust their plans or abandon this goals but stick to this global vision they have in mind and which should be put into practice exactly how they envision it. this makes them way less adaptable than SLE-IEIs. SLEs usually work for their own interests, goals, agenda and of course, are oriented towards a certain vision, but they are more interested in what they do, and then are interested in the meaning of this -> things should be meaningful ideally. (e.g. i was asked what my (outside) perspective on things is, how the different things relate to each other ... things which i keep track of via Ni)"

"all LSIs i know are somewhat oriented towards a vision in some sorts. yes, i guess, that pretty sums up the dynamic between EIE - LSI. it never really occurred to me before, even though it should have been obvious, but thinking about in more detail that really applies to all the LSIs and EIEs i know. e.g. the LSIs i know are politically involved and work towards their ideal of a society, but could also be an area like art if the LSI is an artist. i know an LSI who was heavily into the military as an ideology and wanted to build his life around that, before that changed and he started to define his identity anew. there is always this notion of losing oneself, or sacrificing oneself to something which bigger than yourself. -> in society, their duals are often political leaders or revolutionaries ... my cousin is EIE and i remember that once he when he started talking about his job, the first thing he said was: "you know, the most important thing is that you need a vision ..." (he is in advertisement) it was surprising to me, because i would never say such a thing or phrase it that way. i know a depressed LSI (there is utter lack of Ni and Fe in his daily life) all he does is stay at home and work on his own stuff. when his girlfriend wanted him to work with me and her on a project where we are just trying out stuff, he would decline and said he would only join if the project was different. (it would only be possible to finish something like that if you work like 5 years on that which is pretty unrealistic, but i guess as an LSI he would really commit himself to something like that.) he is not really responsive to most suggestions, but even in the slightest moments where i mention an idea in a Fe way and create a single path in a Ni way towards it, he would latch onto this, but i'm not really good at this like an EIE would be and fall into comatose sleep mode myself without enough Se. lol. but yes, hidden agenda is to believe, i can see how that applies. SLEs never operate under a certain 'ideology' (or belief system) that much. but if EIEs Fe is 'vision', i'd say Ni is 'meaning', 'narrative' or maybe 'the sum of all parts'? it's something which emerges out of the actual process itself, it cannot be predetermined like that. of course, all beta STs value both Fe and Ni, but it's to different degrees."

"well, i tend do give advice on these things too. the difference between IEI and EIE is that EIEs tend to be (emotionally) intrusive or try to convince me to do something (their way), which is something i dislike (when i don't talk about something, i don't want to talk about it and not have to fend off intrusive questions and i don't need anyone to try to get me to do something by being slightly emotionally manipulative, because i know for myself and i will do things my own way anyways) LSIs probably like this or need this. IEIs are more observational in their insights and i personally feel uncomfortable asking intrusive questions and usually ask more open questions. i leave it to others how much they are willing to reveal about themselves or not, however, i share personal experiences if it fits the situation, and if one talks about personal stuff i listen, try to give explanations or find ways to calm the other person down, introduce other viewpoints and when i have advice i suggest it very carefully and in vague terms (like "have you considered this... " "maybe you could.."), Se-base types somehow react well to this (it can be very vague, but they will take up the advice if they find it useful or they just calm down a bit, even if there's no solution yet available) i'm always very careful not to force my opinion on someone (especially if i don't know someone well), so i feel a bit uncomfortable doing this EIE preachy thing they sometimes do. (but i can do that too, just to a smaller extent and more like to prevent bad consequences or just have fun ("omg, how cool! let's do this" lol)), than to specifically achieve something i have in mind.) SLEs have their own Se based agenda, so, they like Ni advice or passionate Fe, but in the end, they'll just do their own thing their own way anyway, so the EIE preachy attitude doesn't really have that much of an effect on them."

"utter lack of Ni and Fe = no beta NF around in his daily, personal life (work, family, etc.. ) he has no aspirations towards anything (lack of Fe, lack of passion, lack of enthusiasm, lack of a 'vision'), so Ti without Fe can make for a very bleak outlook on life, and he's not progressing towards anything even if it would improve his situation. i made some suggestions to him, but he would respond that it doesn't make sense, he could go on like he does right now just as well (even though in the long run it leads to a dead end) but it's clear he wants to be convinced by Fe, he's responsive to that and an overly intrusive, passionate EIE, who are often great speakers as well, could probably convince him in a matter of minutes, but then would have to go on convincing him for the rest of the time, otherwise he would revert back into his passive mode. i don't have that "religious" fervour to passionately prove something (only in bursts) or lead people somewhere , because i rather look ahead via Ni and have no idea myself what exactly it is what i want than drag others forward. i need help myself in that matter ... lack of Se "

"lol, no, not brainwashing. but LSIs can be really hard to convince, like a stone wall. so, me as an IEI i rarely do have an effect on their decisions, while an EIE is much better at inspiring people. so, i guess, they need the crazy, emotional persistent efforts of an EIE to follow a great cause to believe in. (otherwise, especially Ti subtypes if not dualised, would not see it necessary to change anything in their lives or progress towards something) with SLEs i just have to suggest things and they follow my advice (which is usually as a support towards their specific goals or to point out some consequences they have to keep in mind) either immediately or they disregard it, and then it's clear, that it doesn't fit with their agenda."

Etc.

[scio]

So this thread came up again. OK hmm so I'm about establishing some stuff but also improving further... which requires at least a little exploring and it definitely involves moving forward. So yeah, my answer is still the same, I can't say I relate to either one more.




I liked how @lynn put it before here (check this post after that too and a few more bits later in that same thread might also be interesting to you). Though this is more from the beta ST's pov than from the beta NF's pov in terms of what the partners give each other because the topic was about comparing the two beta ST types but there are hints for the latter too. From an IEI's pov, btw, so take that into account when reading the following quotes wherever IEI and EIE approaches are compared.

Quotes for the main bits from that convo:

"hm .. what i wonder about (because it was very noticeable with the LSIs i met recently) that all LSIs really seek this grandiose Fe vision they can work towards to. and just like their dual EIE they are not willing to readjust their plans or abandon this goals but stick to this global vision they have in mind and which should be put into practice exactly how they envision it. this makes them way less adaptable than SLE-IEIs. SLEs usually work for their own interests, goals, agenda and of course, are oriented towards a certain vision, but they are more interested in what they do, and then are interested in the meaning of this -> things should be meaningful ideally. (e.g. i was asked what my (outside) perspective on things is, how the different things relate to each other ... things which i keep track of via Ni)"

"all LSIs i know are somewhat oriented towards a vision in some sorts. yes, i guess, that pretty sums up the dynamic between EIE - LSI. it never really occurred to me before, even though it should have been obvious, but thinking about in more detail that really applies to all the LSIs and EIEs i know. e.g. the LSIs i know are politically involved and work towards their ideal of a society, but could also be an area like art if the LSI is an artist. i know an LSI who was heavily into the military as an ideology and wanted to build his life around that, before that changed and he started to define his identity anew. there is always this notion of losing oneself, or sacrificing oneself to something which bigger than yourself. -> in society, their duals are often political leaders or revolutionaries ... my cousin is EIE and i remember that once he when he started talking about his job, the first thing he said was: "you know, the most important thing is that you need a vision ..." (he is in advertisement) it was surprising to me, because i would never say such a thing or phrase it that way. i know a depressed LSI (there is utter lack of Ni and Fe in his daily life) all he does is stay at home and work on his own stuff. when his girlfriend wanted him to work with me and her on a project where we are just trying out stuff, he would decline and said he would only join if the project was different. (it would only be possible to finish something like that if you work like 5 years on that which is pretty unrealistic, but i guess as an LSI he would really commit himself to something like that.) he is not really responsive to most suggestions, but even in the slightest moments where i mention an idea in a Fe way and create a single path in a Ni way towards it, he would latch onto this, but i'm not really good at this like an EIE would be and fall into comatose sleep mode myself without enough Se. lol. but yes, hidden agenda is to believe, i can see how that applies. SLEs never operate under a certain 'ideology' (or belief system) that much. but if EIEs Fe is 'vision', i'd say Ni is 'meaning', 'narrative' or maybe 'the sum of all parts'? it's something which emerges out of the actual process itself, it cannot be predetermined like that. of course, all beta STs value both Fe and Ni, but it's to different degrees."

"well, i tend do give advice on these things too. the difference between IEI and EIE is that EIEs tend to be (emotionally) intrusive or try to convince me to do something (their way), which is something i dislike (when i don't talk about something, i don't want to talk about it and not have to fend off intrusive questions and i don't need anyone to try to get me to do something by being slightly emotionally manipulative, because i know for myself and i will do things my own way anyways) LSIs probably like this or need this. IEIs are more observational in their insights and i personally feel uncomfortable asking intrusive questions and usually ask more open questions. i leave it to others how much they are willing to reveal about themselves or not, however, i share personal experiences if it fits the situation, and if one talks about personal stuff i listen, try to give explanations or find ways to calm the other person down, introduce other viewpoints and when i have advice i suggest it very carefully and in vague terms (like "have you considered this... " "maybe you could.."), Se-base types somehow react well to this (it can be very vague, but they will take up the advice if they find it useful or they just calm down a bit, even if there's no solution yet available) i'm always very careful not to force my opinion on someone (especially if i don't know someone well), so i feel a bit uncomfortable doing this EIE preachy thing they sometimes do. (but i can do that too, just to a smaller extent and more like to prevent bad consequences or just have fun ("omg, how cool! let's do this" lol)), than to specifically achieve something i have in mind.) SLEs have their own Se based agenda, so, they like Ni advice or passionate Fe, but in the end, they'll just do their own thing their own way anyway, so the EIE preachy attitude doesn't really have that much of an effect on them."

"utter lack of Ni and Fe = no beta NF around in his daily, personal life (work, family, etc.. ) he has no aspirations towards anything (lack of Fe, lack of passion, lack of enthusiasm, lack of a 'vision'), so Ti without Fe can make for a very bleak outlook on life, and he's not progressing towards anything even if it would improve his situation. i made some suggestions to him, but he would respond that it doesn't make sense, he could go on like he does right now just as well (even though in the long run it leads to a dead end) but it's clear he wants to be convinced by Fe, he's responsive to that and an overly intrusive, passionate EIE, who are often great speakers as well, could probably convince him in a matter of minutes, but then would have to go on convincing him for the rest of the time, otherwise he would revert back into his passive mode. i don't have that "religious" fervour to passionately prove something (only in bursts) or lead people somewhere , because i rather look ahead via Ni and have no idea myself what exactly it is what i want than drag others forward. i need help myself in that matter ... lack of Se "

"lol, no, not brainwashing. but LSIs can be really hard to convince, like a stone wall. so, me as an IEI i rarely do have an effect on their decisions, while an EIE is much better at inspiring people. so, i guess, they need the crazy, emotional persistent efforts of an EIE to follow a great cause to believe in. (otherwise, especially Ti subtypes if not dualised, would not see it necessary to change anything in their lives or progress towards something) with SLEs i just have to suggest things and they follow my advice (which is usually as a support towards their specific goals or to point out some consequences they have to keep in mind) either immediately or they disregard it, and then it's clear, that it doesn't fit with their agenda."

Etc.

These were especially helpful. Thank you so much @Myst , you are always so willing to share info
So much to ruminate over hmmm. The "living your life as a cause" part is especially true and interesting. Although, I don't know if it's a singular cause for me but situations that make me base my decisions off of societal ideologies that vary. This is a shitty example but I would switch jobs a lot in college because of the how my managers were abusing and taking advantage of college students and I didn't want to be apart of it, so I was always looking for jobs that treated me normally without taking age into account or try to take advantage of the lack of worldliness associated with college students--thus, knowing that we can be taken advantage of in the first place bc we don't have other things to compare it to.

As for the Beta STs having a bleak outlook on life-- I've seen this. I've also been told that I have brought organization and purpose to their lives, which is literally insane bc I'm an emotional basket case but I guess it works. I know no matter how crazy I am that I have to be working for something larger than me. I know that in the grand scheme of things I don't matter and I don't care if my name gets put on something, I want to do things that I personally see come to fruition. Idc if I get the credit for it. I guess that sets an example for the STs? I find always that the Beta STs I know are the smartest and most intimidating people I know. When they get to know me over time, I always make them want to be holistically good. It seems that Beta NFs rule morality and wanting to be the best person they can be while Beta STs rule systems and wanting to be the smartest and most insightful they can be. Both parts of the quadra seem to live on that competition, which makes them strive to be the best at a certain area.. but it still seems to always be present.

All of this is a lot clearer now!
I always forget about Ej Ij Ep Ip duhhhh

LSI-EIE-purposeful,organized, self-sacrificing causes, rigid in their visions and want things to be a specific way
SLE-IEI- focus on what is coming next & how to deal best with it, adaptable, seeking meaning ​

[scio]

Got it
Ej Ij seeks closure, their goals will naturally be singular and won't change. They won't have any desire to change or to keep open.
Ep Ip take their goals as they come; stay open to changes in their goals, much more impressionable, open to suggestion of advice etc


hmmm
i hate this I literally still think I prefer IEI quite honestly

[Pookie]

Horizontal v. Vertical growth.

[scio]

@Pookie probably the best description tbh

[Myst]

Horizontal v. Vertical growth.

Mind elaborating on this?

[Myst]

@vertu

Glad it helped

I've also been told that I have brought organization and purpose to their lives, which is literally insane bc I'm an emotional basket case but I guess it works.

You have a good sense of irony about yourself : p But yeah, it's funny how that works.

I know no matter how crazy I am that I have to be working for something larger than me. I know that in the grand scheme of things I don't matter and I don't care if my name gets put on something, I want to do things that I personally see come to fruition. Idc if I get the credit for it. I guess that sets an example for the STs?

Hm I don't really follow examples per se so I can't comment on this one.

I find always that the Beta STs I know are the smartest and most intimidating people I know. When they get to know me over time, I always make them want to be holistically good. It seems that Beta NFs rule morality and wanting to be the best person they can be while Beta STs rule systems and wanting to be the smartest and most insightful they can be. Both parts of the quadra seem to live on that competition, which makes them strive to be the best at a certain area.. but it still seems to always be present.

What is this "holistically good" stuff like? Can you say more?

All of this is a lot clearer now!
I always forget about Ej Ij Ep Ip duhhhh

LSI-EIE-purposeful,organized, self-sacrificing causes, rigid in their visions and want things to be a specific way
SLE-IEI- focus on what is coming next & how to deal best with it, adaptable, seeking meaning​

That's a pretty good summary.

The fun thing is I relate to a degree to both. Ultimately though, I don't like changes in the course that much, usually I just adapt if I have to. I like changes in the goal even less if it's to switch to some completely different goal. Changes in terms of elaboration of the goal are okay but only if this doesn't cause a real big change after I've already set the course on something.

Got it
Ej Ij seeks closure, their goals will naturally be singular and won't change. They won't have any desire to change or to keep open.
Ep Ip take their goals as they come; stay open to changes in their goals, much more impressionable, open to suggestion of advice etc


hmmm
i hate this I literally still think I prefer IEI quite honestly

I could see you as IEI actually. You always seem pretty random-spontaneous in your expression EIE isn't always like this though they can be at times. But I could be seeing that wrong about your expressions.

And again, yes, that's a good summary.

[Pookie]

Mind elaborating on this?

Yup.

[Myst]

Yup.

Er? If you are saying you can't elaborate on those concepts, ok.

[scio]

@Myst it's essentially another way of saying that one dual pair focuses on trying a bunch of different approaches to their goals (SLE/IEI) and the other dual pair focuses more on a singular growing goal over time (bc higher Ni from both) (EIE/LSI)

[scio]

@Myst lmaoo and yeah I guess it is!

So as for the "holistically good" part I will do things when I'm interacting with people that the Beta STs will adopt as their own. I've had interactions before where they will say that when they are with me they think "oh yeah, this is a behavior in myself I need to change. I should act more like this". That's just a general example but it's generally about me being overly courteous and that's their response. Perhaps that's more SLE than LSI, I'm not sure. Does that help?

Mmmm yeah, that makes sense. Is it stressful to you or do you just adapt and would rather the changes not present themselves? I prefer change and treat it as a chance to grow. When you say that you like changes in your specific goal, that goes back to @Pookie saying that the EIE/LSI pair exhibits vertical growth.

I definitely am far too p-like, I think. Haha yes, my responses are spontaneous, that's definitely correct! I try not to be calculated in my interactions at all bc then it doesn't feel natural. It depends on who I'm talking to, though, for sure.

[Pookie]

No. Beta rationals exhibit horizonal, as they are the evolutionary pair. IEI/SLE are the involutionary pair, and thus exhibit vertical.

Genghis Khan had the tools and mindset to conquer more land than anyone in history, but not the tools to stabilize and control them. Vertical growth. The rational pair make horizontal gains, and thus stabilize the foundation better.

[Myst]

@Myst it's essentially another way of saying that one dual pair focuses on trying a bunch of different approaches to their goals (SLE/IEI) and the other dual pair focuses more on a singular growing goal over time (bc higher Ni from both) (EIE/LSI)

What's a "singular growing goal"? Some example?

@Myst lmaoo and yeah I guess it is!

So as for the "holistically good" part I will do things when I'm interacting with people that the Beta STs will adopt as their own. I've had interactions before where they will say that when they are with me they think "oh yeah, this is a behavior in myself I need to change. I should act more like this". That's just a general example but it's generally about me being overly courteous and that's their response. Perhaps that's more SLE than LSI, I'm not sure. Does that help?

Mmmm yeah, that makes sense. Is it stressful to you or do you just adapt and would rather the changes not present themselves? I prefer change and treat it as a chance to grow. When you say that you like changes in your specific goal, that goes back to @Pookie saying that the EIE/LSI pair exhibits vertical growth.

I definitely am far too p-like, I think. Haha yes, my responses are spontaneous, that's definitely correct! I try not to be calculated in my interactions at all bc then it doesn't feel natural. It depends on who I'm talking to, though, for sure.

"Holistically good" topic: I don't relate to this, I dunno if SLEs do. Maybe @niffer can comment on this.

I don't know what counts as stressful here, beyond simple dislike of the change?

I didn't say I like changes in my specific goal, I just said some smaller changes are better tolerated than a big switch.

And yah that's a good way to put it, you are not very calculated with your expressions.

[Myst]

No. Beta rationals exhibit horizonal, as they are the evolutionary pair. IEI/SLE are the involutionary pair, and thus exhibit vertical.

Genghis Khan had the tools and mindset to conquer more land than anyone in history, but not the tools to stabilize and control them. Vertical growth. The rational pair make horizontal gains, and thus stabilize the foundation better.

OK the example makes sense. I do both approaches but I lean towards the "horizontal" stuff, I do that a bit more. I however need both. I'd grow eventually bored if I didn't do the "vertical" approach for a bit (conquering more stuff). Then I'd have a problem if I had to maintain that approach all the time. Too "shallow"/extraverted beyond a point.

Note I'm strictly going by your example, not by anything Gulenko may have said, I hopefully have managed to forget most the stuff from his articles (the bit of stuff that I was even willing to read in the first place - yes I have a very low opinion of most of Gulenko's ideas).