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Thread: Abortion Derail (From US Election Thread)

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    Default Abortion Derail (From US Election Thread)

    In the Old Testament, there was no blood price to be paid on infants killed at the age of less than a month (nevermind fetuses). They were not even considered people.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You were telling me only recently that your mother used to say that "if you don't have anything nice to say you should not say anything at all"...even though I was calling someone out for calling people evil that they didn't even know anything about (other than their presumed type).
    I will cut and paste this into that when I answer it... I am afraid to get caught up in time consuming arguments... its a busy time right now with the usual reno work which is crawling along in this heat (heat requires some time cooling off in our (little) pool - which also needs maintaining, small as it is) and also I need to get my mom (whom we care for) involved in some services and its a long process of evaluations and applications and such that I need to stay on top of - that's my goal this month on top of other things. So I am just not online as often or for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In the Old Testament, there was no blood price to be paid on infants killed at the age of less than a month (nevermind fetuses). They were not even considered people.
    Probably not going to get into Bible verses with you.. we don't seem to have compatible exegesis... God is the same yesterday today and always those unique lives were always valued by God and He always has a plan for them which we in our beautiful and terrible free will can abort. .. "Fetus" - it means "little one" even though the word to us sounds un-human, so our reaction to the word serves justification for the killings. Yet, they don't look un-human, no matter how small....

    Pictures of tiny humans: http://www.lifenews.com/2013/09/23/amazing-photos-of-nathan-miscarried-at-14-weeks-show-unborn-babys-humanity/ Very graphic! But bot often published becasue even though everythign else is allowed to be graphic, not this realtiy. Yes, even at 9 weeks - perfect undeniably human toes and fingers, perfectly formed, and a beating heart of a unique and SEPARATE person... yes, dependent on teh humanity of Man, yet a separate person from mom. Not a part of her body, but his/her own body... Thats reality. One who feels pain and has his/her own will, and recoils being torn apart by the abortionist (as can be seen in the video "Silent Scream")...

    http://liveactionnews.org/wp-content...ah-700x457.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ce3501064c.jpg
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I will cut and paste this into that when I answer it... I am afraid to get caught up in time consuming arguments... its a busy time right now with the usual reno work which is crawling along in this heat (heat requires some time cooling off in our (little) pool - which also needs maintaining, small as it is) and also I need to get my mom (whom we care for) involved in some services and its a long process of evaluations and applications and such that I need to stay on top of - that's my goal this month on top of other things. So I am just not online as often or for long.

    Probably not going to get into Bible verses with you.. we don't seem to have compatible exegesis... God is the same yesterday today and always those unique lives were always valued by God and He always has a plan for them which we in our beautiful and terrible free will can abort. .. "Fetus" - it means "little one" even though the word to us sounds un-human, so our reaction to the word serves justification for the killings. Yet, they don't look un-human, no matter how small....

    Pictures of tiny humans: http://www.lifenews.com/2013/09/23/amazing-photos-of-nathan-miscarried-at-14-weeks-show-unborn-babys-humanity/ Very graphic! But bot often published becasue even though everythign else is allowed to be graphic, not this realtiy. Yes, even at 9 weeks - perfect undeniably human toes and fingers, perfectly formed, and a beating heart of a unique and SEPARATE person... yes, dependent on teh humanity of Man, yet a separate person from mom. Not a part of her body, but his/her own body... Thats reality. One who feels pain and has his/her own will, and recoils being torn apart by the abortionist (as can be seen in the video "Silent Scream")...

    http://liveactionnews.org/wp-content...ah-700x457.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ce3501064c.jpg
    I do not personally like abortion. I do not believe however that the pain suffered (if any) by a 9 week human fetus has the same significance as the pain suffered by pigs, cows, sheep, chimpanzees etc. killed for food. If you truly cared about decreasing pain, you would eat nothing, and advocate that humans no longer reproduce.

    If god is the same today as in the Old Testament, I wonder why in the OT fetuses and infants less than one month old were not even considered individuals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I do not personally like abortion. I do not believe however that the pain suffered (if any) by a 9 week human fetus has the same significance as the pain suffered by pigs, cows, sheep, chimpanzees etc. killed for food. If you truly cared about decreasing pain, you would eat nothing, and advocate that humans no longer reproduce.
    People/animals in the same category? This is so completely not a basis for an argument. Its just ridiculous. I can't possibly go there.

    "I do not personally like abortion" but its fine with me that others do - I really think that oft repeated slogan is a seriously bad moral position. IMO, people who parrot this position are culpable for pushing a woman in crisis in that direction. I would not be at all surprised if God judges many of that position more harshly than the woman-in-crisis. Because being surrounded with such oft-repeated slogans "its your body - you choose" which is obviously and scientifically a lie - moves too many to make a choice they regret but must live with. The slogan-person does not have to live with that.


    [QUOTE=Subteigh;1144713} If god is the same today as in the Old Testament, I wonder why in the OT fetuses and infants less than one month old were not even considered individuals?[/QUOTE] Your exegesis and context is at fault - again. I know you are intelligent Subteigh but it takes more than intelligence. Anyone can say "the Bible says" - and people do, making it mean all KINDS of things that it does not. If one is puzzling over a verse, one finds competent, scholarly exegesis on it - because if one is wondering you can be sure that far greater minds than one's own have considered the same exact question, with scholarly skill and piety one can only admire. Someone saying that the Bible says some crazy thing - its extremely common! Also besides piety, and scholarly intelligence I seek an unbiased opinion from a person of good will - and do you really consider yourself as having good will towards Christianity? Sometimes, perhaps, but you are on the fence, and quite often here you do not have that good will.

    The Old Testament needs a whole contextual understanding. But one can always revert to the Ten Commandments, since they are from the never-changing Lord God Himself. "Though shalt not kill". Look at the pics I linked - definitely, no questionm we are talking of killing of human lives here. There will never be on earth another just like those little ones - they are all unique and what they could have offered mankind had they been allowed to choose the life they clearly wanted but was robbed from them, against their will, we can never know, here on earth, what loss mankind has suffered.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    People/animals in the same category? This is so completely not a basis for an argument. Its just ridiculous. I can't possibly go there.

    "I do not personally like abortion" but its fine with me that others do - I really think that oft repeated slogan is a seriously bad moral position. IMO, people who parrot this position are culpable for pushing a woman in crisis in that direction. I would not be at all surprised if God judges many of that position more harshly than the woman-in-crisis. Because being surrounded with such oft-repeated slogans "its your body - you choose" which is obviously and scientifically a lie - moves too many to make a choice they regret but must live with. The slogan-person does not have to live with that.
    You were talking about the pain that fetuses allegedly suffer during abortion as though you were concerned with limiting pain. Now it seems like you do not care about preventing unnecessary pain.

    If you wish to only talk about human pain, then I would wonder why you believe it acceptable to worship a god who, according to scripture, intends to torture most of humanity for eternity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Your exegesis and context is at fault - again. I know you are intelligent Subteigh but it takes more than intelligence. Anyone can say "the Bible says" - and people do, making it mean all KINDS of things that it does not. If one is puzzling over a verse, one finds competent, scholarly exegesis on it - because if one is wondering you can be sure that far greater minds than one's own have considered the same exact question, with scholarly skill and piety one can only admire. Someone saying that the Bible says some crazy thing - its extremely common! Also besides piety, and scholarly intelligence I seek an unbiased opinion from a person of good will - and do you really consider yourself as having good will towards Christianity? Sometimes, perhaps, but you are on the fence, and quite often here you do not have that good will.

    The Old Testament needs a whole contextual understanding. But one can always revert to the Ten Commandments, since they are from the never-changing Lord God Himself. "Though shalt not kill". Look at the pics I linked - definitely, no questionm we are talking of killing of human lives here. There will never be on earth another just like those little ones - they are all unique and what they could have offered mankind had they been allowed to choose the life they clearly wanted but was robbed from them, against their will, we can never know, here on earth, what loss mankind has suffered.
    I was once a Christian, and can say I have honestly assessed its immoral scriptures as impartially as I was able.

    The bible is full of numerous instances where god not only orders humans to kill humans (and animals), but carries it out himself on a genocidal scale on numerous occasions.

    The so-called Ten Commandments are listed twice in the Old Testament, and are different in each instance. The original set that Moses smashed up had the commandment that you should respect the Sabbath, and yet Jesus later says that this is not necessary, so they're hardly set in stone.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You were talking about the pain that fetuses allegedly suffer during abortion as though you were concerned with limiting pain. Now it seems like you do not care about preventing unnecessary pain.
    If you are talking about animals, yes, we are to treat animals with respect and mercy, and those who are cruel to animals will have to answer to God for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you wish to only talk about human pain, then I would wonder why you believe it acceptable to worship a God who, according to scripture, intends to torture most of humanity for eternity.
    Oh, you forgot, we already talked about that. Yes, Hell exists. Jesus said so. And yet, God is love and mercy as well as perfect justice. You don't understand it or you don't want to understand it.

    Subteigh, if you were God, would you have in Heaven the unrepentant sinners, like, for example, people who spent their earth torturing, hurting, deceiving others, who never repented for it, and if given more chances to repent, still would refuse to? What would be heavenly about that??

    God created all human souls to be eternal, and they have to go somewhere for eternity. Choice time is here, not there. In Heaven there will not be those who want to be their own God. None. But in Hell there will be. Many will choose to be with the like-minded souls and it will be their choice. But it won't be nice to be with like-minded souls in Hell, because in Hell there won't be the good people to walk all over and use for evil purposes so it won't be as much "fun" as on earth, for those who have that idea of fun. So on earth we should surround ourselves with good people, or at least find those in our lives we can look up to and emulate, because that is who we are going to be spending eternity with. And we need to become good ourselves, and also seek God's will for our life here on earth, because He has a will and a plan for each one of us, and only in that plan will we have true peace and happiness. If we want to know that plan, God will tell it to us. He says if you seek Him, you will find Him. For most of us that is serving right where we are. But if you don't seek Him because you don't want to find Him, you will not, and if you do not seek God's will because do not want to know it or you want to do your own will, you will not know it.

    Doing God's will on earth is what gets us ready for Heaven, not "I did it MY way." So, in the end, we will choose. To be with God, who is All good, all love and mercy, or, not-God. Yes, in the end, God will separate the sheep and the goats. Here on earth we are all mixed-up together. In eternity, they will be separated for eternity. What will you choose?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I was once a Christian, and can say I have honestly assessed its immoral scriptures as impartially as I was able.
    Immoral - that's your judgment. Well, yes, its become commonplace since the reformation to have the idea that the Bible dropped down from Heaven and its up to each and every one of us to interpret it for own ourselves. I guess I sort of believed that once too. Yet, even then I choose carefully whose interpretations I considered, and a judgment like yours I would have just ignored as too far outside reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The bible is full of numerous instances where god not only orders humans to kill humans (and animals), but carries it out himself on a genocidal scale on numerous occasions.
    So you have made your judgment for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The so-called Ten Commandments are listed twice in the Old Testament, and are different in each instance.
    The numbering and grouping of the Ten Commandments can be interpreted in slightly different ways. If its an issue for you, you must listen for yourself to the reasons for each and make an intelligent conclusion. To me, and most, it does not matter. The different divisions/numbering do not change the essentials. This is not a stumbling block for the average Biblical scholar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The original set that Moses smashed up had the commandment that you should respect the Sabbath, and yet Jesus later says that this is not necessary, so they're hardly set in stone.
    I never heard that interpretation! Wow, what far-fetched conclusions one can come to! No, Jesus made no such statement about the commandments. I think you are probably referring to Jesus's conversations with the proud Pharisees, who, over time had concocted myriad complicated and precise additional rules "clarifying" what following the commands looked like, which had by then become pretty impossible to follow. Jesus taught them to instead look at all the Commandments remembering the most important: "Love God, and love others as yourself." He did not end the Commandments of Eternal Father in Heaven who changes not - He clarified them in the right context.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Subteigh, if you were God, would you have in Heaven the unrepentant sinners, like, for example, people who spent their earth torturing, hurting, deceiving others, who never repented for it, and if given more chances to repent, still would refuse to? What would be heavenly about that??
    If I was god, I would still consider it immoral to torture individuals for eternity for a lifetime of "sins". I would consider it immoral also to torture people for eternity for failing to worship a god they consider immoral, or being unable to follow a god that there is no evidence for. I would consider it immoral to reward some of the worst people who ever lived. I don't think you are evil for believing such a depraved ideology, but you are certainly misguided, and susceptible to doing great evil as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    God created all human souls to be eternal, and they have to go somewhere for eternity. Choice time is here, not there. In Heaven there will not be those who want to be their own God. None. But in Hell there will be. Many will choose to be with the like-minded souls and it will be their choice. But it won't be nice to be with like-minded souls in Hell, because in Hell there won't be the good people to walk all over and use for evil purposes so it won't be as much "fun" as on earth, for those who have that idea of fun. So on earth we should surround ourselves with good people, or at least find those in our lives we can look up to and emulate, because that is who we are going to be spending eternity with. And we need to become good ourselves, and also seek God's will for our life here on earth, because He has a will and a plan for each one of us, and only in that plan will we have true peace and happiness. If we want to know that plan, God will tell it to us. He says if you seek Him, you will find Him. For most of us that is serving right where we are. But if you don't seek Him because you don't want to find Him, you will not, and if you do not seek God's will because do not want to know it or you want to do your own will, you will not know it.

    Doing God's will on earth is what gets us ready for Heaven, not "I did it MY way." So, in the end, we will choose. To be with God, who is All good, all love and mercy, or, not-God. Yes, in the end, God will separate the sheep and the goats. Here on earth we are all mixed-up together. In eternity, they will be separated for eternity. What will you choose?
    As you already know, I do not believe there will ever be sufficient proof of the supernatural, and I would consider it immoral to worship such an evill being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Immoral - that's your judgment. Well, yes, its become commonplace since the reformation to have the idea that the Bible dropped down from Heaven and its up to each and every one of us to interpret it for own ourselves. I guess I sort of believed that once too. Yet, even then I choose carefully whose interpretations I considered, and a judgment like yours I would have just ignored as too far outside reality.
    It seems rather immoral to judge someone for being unrealistic, especially if you define "unrealistic" as being unable to believe in something omnipotent and omnibenevolent. To judge such individuals would by no means be benevolent.

    You are correct to say that the bible has many interpretations, and it is not surprising. There are instances in the bible which suggest that everybody goes to heaven, unconditionally.

    "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." - 1 John 2:2

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22

    "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

    If god is the saviour of all, especially those who believe, that would mean that no one suffers punishment for their sin, as Christ has already redeemed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    So you have made your judgment for yourself.
    Well yeah. You don't have to be older than 7 to know that torturing people for eternity is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    The numbering and grouping of the Ten Commandments can be interpreted in slightly different ways. If its an issue for you, you must listen for yourself to the reasons for each and make an intelligent conclusion. To me, and most, it does not matter. The different divisions/numbering do not change the essentials. This is not a stumbling block for the average Biblical scholar.
    What is traditionally referred to as the Ten Commandments (the ones Moses smashed up):

    2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
    3 Do not have any other gods before me.

    4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

    6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

    8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

    9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

    10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

    12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    13 You shall not murder.

    14 You shall not commit adultery.

    15 You shall not steal.

    16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
    Now, the only instance in the bible where the phrase "Ten Commandments" is actually mentioned:

    11 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

    12 Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.

    13 You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles

    14 (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).

    15 You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.

    16 And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.

    17 You shall not make cast idols.

    18 You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

    19 All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep.

    20 The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.

    No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

    21 For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest.

    22 You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.

    23 Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.

    24 For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.

    25 You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.

    26 The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.

    You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

    27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

    28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
    As you can tell, rather a distinct difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I never heard that interpretation! Wow, what far-fetched conclusions one can come to! No, Jesus made no such statement about the commandments. I think you are probably referring to Jesus's conversations with the proud Pharisees, who, over time had concocted myriad complicated and precise additional rules "clarifying" what following the commands looked like, which had by then become pretty impossible to follow. Jesus taught them to instead look at all the Commandments remembering the most important: "Love God, and love others as yourself." He did not end the Commandments of Eternal Father in Heaven who changes not - He clarified them in the right context.
    You are referring to the right story. The point of what Jesus said to the Pharisees was that the Sabbath was created for Man, not Man for the Sabbath, and that the Hebrews did not have to avoid work on the Sabbath in order to keep it holy. Jesus considered it a Ceremonial law as opposed to a Moral law - it was unnecessary to follow it. If Jesus had not made this pronouncement, then Christians would have to stone (or similar) millions of people to death for working on Saturdays, eating shellfish and pork, wearing two different types of fabric worn together, and so on. Of course theology being illogical, what is ceremonial law and what is moral law is apparently a great bone of contention. It is still worth noting that Jesus considered at least one of the so-called Ten Commandments as a ceremonial law which it was not necessary to follow.

    Now...again, in regards abortion. You say that the bible says "You shall not kill" (or rather, "You shall not murder"). In Leviticus 27:1-7, concerning blood prices, it says the following:
    Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When a man consecrates by a vow certain persons to the Lord, according to your valuation, 3 if your valuation is of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old, then your valuation shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. 4 If it is a female, then your valuation shall be thirty shekels; 5 and if from five years old up to twenty years old, then your valuation for a male shall be twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels; 6 and if from a month old up to five years old, then your valuation for a male shall be five shekels of silver, and for a female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver; 7 and if from sixty years old and above, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels.
    Men as you might expect are worth more than women in god's eyes, and those aged 20-60 are worth more than those aged 5-20. Those aged 1 month old to 5 years of age are worth even less: but note, those under the age of 1 month are not even worthy of being mentioned, nevermind valued.

    Now, in Numbers 3:14:15, god is of a similar mind (perhaps this fits in with your idea of a god that is never-changing):
    Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, saying: 15 “Number the children of Levi by their fathers’ houses, by their families; you shall number every male from a month old and above.”
    In the Old Testament, as you can see, fetuses and infants under the age of 1 month are simply not considered individuals.
    EII-Ne
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    there is nothing inherently immoral about abortions when conducted by trained medical professionals in a clinical setting with proper oversight

    stop getting offended by shit that doesn't affect you personally

    don't like abortions? don't get one

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In the Old Testament, there was no blood price to be paid on infants killed at the age of less than a month (nevermind fetuses). They were not even considered people.
    No citations for your crazy idea, however, I can just think.

    Circumcision:

    10 This is my covenant which you shall observe, between me and you, and thy seed after thee: All the male kind of you shall be circumcised:
    11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, that it may be for a sign of the covenant between me and you.
    12 An infant of eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations: he that is born in the house, as well as the bought servant shall be circumcised, and whosoever is not of your stock:
    13 And my covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant.
    14 The male, whose flesh of his foreskin shall not be circumcised, that soul shall be destroyed out of his people: because he hath broken my covenant.
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)


    Non-people were not entered into an everlasting covenant with God at 8 days old.

    You cannot take things out of context and make sweeping generalizations about it. Its not very scholarly of you.

    And, think a little bit more. Did women say, "I am pregnant with a non-person!" And when they were born, did people celebrate a non-person who might be a person someday? Where was the two-month celebration when the "thing" becoming a person?

    How can we have a Bible discussion when you have such insane conclusions. Your idea about God being immoral - we already discussed that crazy idea, so no need to revisit the craziness.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  10. #10
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    How can we have a Bible discussion when you have such insane conclusions. Your idea about God being immoral - we already discussed that crazy idea, so no need to revisit the craziness.
    god kills babies

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    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post

    Probably not going to get into Bible verses with you.. we don't seem to have compatible exegesis... God is the same yesterday today and always those unique lives were always valued by God and He always has a plan for them which we in our beautiful and terrible free will can abort. .. "Fetus" - it means "little one" even though the word to us sounds un-human, so our reaction to the word serves justification for the killings. Yet, they don't look un-human, no matter how small....
    I know this is a relatively small point, but as someone w an interest in etymology as well as facts, I want to ask about this. Where did you hear or read that "fetus" means "little one"?


    Fetus^2 ~ us m. [as prec = tvs^3]

    1. The Bringing forth of young, parturition: (of birds) laying; an instance of this, a birth. b the bearing of young, breeding c. conception, begetting.

    2. The bearing of fruit by plants; (also by the Earth)

    3. That which is born, an offspring (usu of beast occ. of human being, ect) b (sg. collect.) the young (of an animal), the childern (of a parent). c the young born at one time, brood, litter. d the young while still in the womb

    4. A Fruit of a plant, produce, crop. b. And offshoot, branch, sucker, sapling, etc., produced by a plant. c (transf.) a product of the mind of imagination

    -- Oxford Latin Dictionary
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    i haven't read to the "conclusion" of this article yet, but i think it better addresses the matter of this thread.

    https://www.ministrymagazine.org/arc...n-biblical-law

    eta: now that i've read much more of it i am once again captivated by just how difficult it really is to read the damn bible. but worse, i think that probably those *writing* the bible were not as obsessed with being precise as "we are today." i doubt they picked over everything with a fine-tooth comb looking for possible ways it could be misinterpreted to mean something else.
    Last edited by inumbra; 08-10-2016 at 03:00 AM.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    I know this is a relatively small point, but as someone w an interest in etymology as well as facts, I want to ask about this. Where did you hear or read that "fetus" means "little one"?


    Fetus^2 ~ us m. [as prec = tvs^3]

    1. The Bringing forth of young, parturition: (of birds) laying; an instance of this, a birth. b the bearing of young, breeding c. conception, begetting.

    2. The bearing of fruit by plants; (also by the Earth)

    3. That which is born, an offspring (usu of beast occ. of human being, ect) b (sg. collect.) the young (of an animal), the childern (of a parent). c the young born at one time, brood, litter. d the young while still in the womb

    4. A Fruit of a plant, produce, crop. b. And offshoot, branch, sucker, sapling, etc., produced by a plant. c (transf.) a product of the mind of imagination

    -- Oxford Latin Dictionary
    I have long heard this. My husband is the expert on word origin around here and he told me, though he is out at the moment. So I googled and got: "In Latin, “fetus” means “little one,” referring to the relatively small size of the preborn baby." Sounds like an affection term. If my husband has anything to add when he gets back (he is seriously deeply into Latin) I will post it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  14. #14
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have long heard this. My husband is the expert on word origin around here and he told me, though he is out at the moment. So I googled and got: "In Latin, “fetus” means “little one,” referring to the relatively small size of the preborn baby." Sounds like an affection term. If my husband has anything to add when he gets back (he is seriously deeply into Latin) I will post it.
    i couldn't find such a definition when i googled except on pro-life websites. they are attempting to be dramatic and then referencing one another, ad infinitum.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus#Etymology

    but anyway, it refers to offspring, which is like a baby, and babies are young and little... so as you see in the end a fetus is all of these things.

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    Kim's Avatar
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    Instead of making abortion illegal and putting women's lives at risk, provide free contraception:



    More information:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/sc...g-success.html
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have long heard this. My husband is the expert on word origin around here and he told me, though he is out at the moment. So I googled and got: "In Latin, “fetus” means “little one,” referring to the relatively small size of the preborn baby." Sounds like an affection term. If my husband has anything to add when he gets back (he is seriously deeply into Latin) I will post it.

    I found that too, on anti-abortion sites w a vested interest in promoting such a "fact," but I could find no confirmation in any Latin dictionary. It may be emotionally stirring, but it does not seem to be true.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i couldn't find such a definition when i googled except on pro-life websites. they are attempting to be dramatic and then referencing one another, ad infinitum.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus#Etymology

    but anyway, it refers to offspring, which is like a baby, and babies are young and little... so as you see in the end a fetus is all of these things.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen..._old_elephant/

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  18. #18
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9c/17/f3/9c17f336e29a7a60a424696fc3f267b3.jpg

    https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen..._old_elephant/
    ???

    but here is a fetus for you:



    admittedly, it isn't nearly as disturbing looking as the one you posted, but i ran out of time to find a worse looking one that wasn't human.
    Last edited by inumbra; 08-11-2016 at 12:59 AM.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    No citations for your crazy idea, however, I can just think.

    Circumcision:

    10 This is my covenant which you shall observe, between me and you, and thy seed after thee: All the male kind of you shall be circumcised:
    11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, that it may be for a sign of the covenant between me and you.
    12 An infant of eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations: he that is born in the house, as well as the bought servant shall be circumcised, and whosoever is not of your stock:
    13 And my covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant.
    14 The male, whose flesh of his foreskin shall not be circumcised, that soul shall be destroyed out of his people: because he hath broken my covenant.
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)


    Non-people were not entered into an everlasting covenant with God at 8 days old.

    You cannot take things out of context and make sweeping generalizations about it. Its not very scholarly of you.

    And, think a little bit more. Did women say, "I am pregnant with a non-person!" And when they were born, did people celebrate a non-person who might be a person someday? Where was the two-month celebration when the "thing" becoming a person?

    How can we have a Bible discussion when you have such insane conclusions. Your idea about God being immoral - we already discussed that crazy idea, so no need to revisit the craziness.
    You cannot escape the fact that if there is a lower "blood price" on a person, god considers them of lesser value, and in the case of fetuses and infants less than 1 month old, of no value whatsoever. The verses you quoted just show that god also discriminated against adult males who weren't circumcised too.

    I am not making sweeping generalisations. There are verses in the bible where it says that god knew you in the womb, that he knows the number of hairs on your head etc.: that does not make god anymore appreciative of the value of a new-born infant. There are also instances in the bible where god kills fetuses, babies, children etc., as though they were of no value whatsoever. God killed David and Bathsheba's child in the womb, to punish DAVID...not the fetus, not Bathsheba, who had to suffer the miscarriage. God killed numerous infants in the Great Flood and in the various genocides carried out by the Hebrews. He also killed 42 children via two female bears because they made fun of his prophet for...being bald...when he was bald.

    The purpose of circumcision to mark a covenant is self-evident pointless, as that would imply that half of the Hebrew population were not in a covenant with god. The circumcision ritual is very much similar to the marking of cattle so that you recognise them as your own: I would not consider the circumcision ritual as being inconsistent with god placing little or no value on the fetuses and infants less than 1 month old (in comparison any of the numerous lambs of the same age that god ordered to be slaughtered to satisfy his lust for blood). On one infamous occasion of course, god actually commands one of his followers to kill his own son, and his follower is actually willing to commit such an act of depravity (the "child" in that instance may actually have been an adult, nevermind a fetus).
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