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Thread: How would an Si base hit EIE/LIE Si PoLR?

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    Default How would an Si base hit EIE/LIE Si PoLR?

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    by talking

    you can ask @goldenbane

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    (Sorry for the longer-than-usual post. This is a topic I find confusing.)

    I'm not so sure it's primarily through talk. I'm not so sure that I get a lot of simple so-called polr hits from Si-doms, either.

    What seems to happen is that my entire way of being is misperceived, or correctly perceived but rejected.

    With ISFps, it might be what they are neglecting to say that gets me into trouble. They're often polite and expect me to read in between the lines about their problems and the things they wish I were doing differently. I'm not good at reading in between their lines. I tend to take what they say and do at face value. I'm sort of a simpleton in that way. This leads to misunderstandings.

    Some of my SEI friends and acquaintances also have enjoyed doing things that horrify me, such as keeping odd pets (that run around and touch me, or the SEIs insist that I touch the pets, like lizards and rats and goats), wearing pajamas in public, smoking lots of dope (I get sick from doing this), looking at pictures of broken and disgusting things, or pictures of boring things, and generally spending many many hours in an incredibly relaxed state. I remember describing to an SEI in chat here how an SEI friend of mine would do things like rub her bare foot all around the leg of a coffee table in a sinuous way that clearly was doing something positive for her internal state. She's a lovely person with a cute foot, but somehow this little action repeated during a long conversation set me deeply on edge. When things like that are constantly in the background, I feel uncertain of myself.

    In Si-rich environments, I tend to feel loud and clangorous, and I start to behave even more neurotically than usual. I start to feel clumsy and ungainly, and even to trip and bump into things and make verbal mistakes (this latter being my area of usual strength).

    With ISTps, we seem to talk around each other more. They don't respond much to Fe, so everything I say seems to miss the mark. Likewise, they will say things to me that they want me to understand or respond to in ways I just don't. I remember an ISTp in my house once, saying, "I really like the combination of colors you used in this kitchen." It was yellow and gray. My response was that I stumbled into the color combination because I wanted the cabinetry to blend with the stainless steel appliances, but for the room overall not to seem too cool in tone. And he kind of just repeated himself? "Yes, but it's a really good combination of colors." And then I didn't know what to say -- I probably said, "Oh, uh-huh, thanks," and we kind of backed away from each other. Lol -- so awkward. I think he was trying to acknowledge the technical aspects of color, color theory, etc., and I'm not so great in that domain and feel somewhat insecure about it. Therefore, I ignored that he was trying to give me credit for a technical aesthetic choice, and we couldn't really talk then on the terms he intended. (He is a professional designer.) Meh.

    I've known two ISTps who after I while I got into outright arguments with, though I would cut these arguments extremely short. One of them accused me of making things up when I explained something about how music rights work in the legal sense (I wasn't making it up, lol, it was absolutely correct and factual), and another ran a store and I'd go in there to buy gifts and such when I needed to give gifts, but she would act like I was wasting my money, since at that time my funds were tight? It was weird - I had to shop somewhere because I had to give certain gifts, and I chose her store, and she acted put out. Sigh.

    The bigger issue is just the whole context. I start to feel sick easily from various environmental input and get incredibly tense, and then feel sicker, and then tenser, and it's hard to get that under control. I have to leave places when they have environmental conditions I can't handle, and this makes me look insane to some people. Being able to joke around and to work things through intellectually are both ways of calming myself down, which may be why usually ISFp is a better interpersonal fit for me. ISTp often look at me like an alien when I make jokes, and the nature of my intellectual process seems to exasperate them after a while, so we end up in a stalemate. In both cases, I walk away feeling bad about myself, though, and it doesn't appear that the Si types do feel bad afterward, though I can't know for sure.

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    I know an LIE who has made several self-critical remarks in front of me about how she doesn't know how to slow down and just enjoy the moment, referring to something an SLI said to her apparently once, years ago and doesn't even remember saying (but when reminded said that yeah, he probably has said that to her). She'll say something like, "Oh I guess it is like [SLI] says: I just don't know how to relax and take in the moment and just enjoy being here; I have to always be moving and I miss things. But, what can you do?" Every time she says it, it seems to me out of the blue.

    She also takes his other criticisms seriously and personally, even when I can tell he doesn't mean them that way. I feel bad for her bc he hits her weaknesses without meaning to, and she really can't fight back -- when she loses her temper w him, he just shrugs her off and always seems to have the upper hand. (Not sure how much of this is supervision > Si-PoLR related specifically, but there you have it)

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane
    I walk away feeling bad about myself, though, and it doesn't appear that the Si types do feel bad afterward, though I can't know for sure.


    A little off topic, but I have wondered whether, in conflicting relations, the extravert is the one to feel the burn more often. Fwiw, in my dealings w LSIs, I think I annoy them and they think I'm an idiot, while I find them more intimidating than they find me. Then again, maybe the introvert feels just as bad but doesn't show it as readily (and maybe especially ISTxs).
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    A little off topic, but I have wondered whether, in conflicting relations, the extravert is the one to feel the burn more often. Fwiw, in my dealings w LSIs, I think I annoy them and they think I'm an idiot, while I find them more intimidating than they find me. Then again, maybe the introvert feels just as bad but doesn't show it as readily (and maybe especially ISTxs).
    My unfortunate recent experience with a Conflictor matches what you are saying here - the IEE got more stressed out than I did. I would just get angry at times, not hiding it, while they felt physically strained (Si DS?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    My unfortunate recent experience with a Conflictor matches what you are saying here - the IEE got more stressed out than I did. I would just get angry at times, not hiding it, while they felt physically strained (Si DS?).
    yes.

    I loved the video that @Eliza Thomason posted about the IEE bachelorette and her experience with the LSI guy. She literally felt overwhelmed by the experience of him.

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    I know another LIE woman who, while physically attractive, doesn't have great personal taste or style, so she relies on wearing expensive clothes to look good -- her logic seems to be that if it was expensive, it's good...but this ends up w her wearing some gaudy outfits sometimes, or way too much jewelry (that also doesn't go well together), etc...while an SLI woman we know shops wherever and puts together lovely, stylish, simple outfits that look effortless (bc it is, for her). The LIE seems envious of this, but also critical, pointing it out if ever the SLI has a flaw -- like once she was going to work out and had a small hole in her shirt...her (the SLI's) attitude was, I'm going to work out, so who cares? but the LIE seemed to enjoy the opportunity to criticize what the SLI was wearing and tell her she looked "ragged."
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    I know another LIE woman who, while physically attractive, doesn't have great personal taste or style, so she relies on wearing expensive clothes to look good -- her logic seems to be that if it was expensive, it's good...but this ends up w her wearing some gaudy outfits sometimes, or way too much jewelry (that also doesn't go well together), etc...while an SLI woman we know shops wherever and puts together lovely, stylish, simple outfits that look effortless (bc it is, for her). The LIE seems envious of this, but also critical, pointing it out if ever the SLI has a flaw -- like once she was going to work out and had a small hole in her shirt...her (the SLI's) attitude was, I'm going to work out, so who cares? but the LIE seemed to enjoy the opportunity to criticize what the SLI was wearing and tell her she looked "ragged."
    This is an excellent description of how and why I dress. "If it is expensive, it is probably good." I completely have this attitude, but at the same time, I realize that I actually completely suck at fashion. For this reason, I try to get input from others on how I am dressed before going out, but I still am terrible at putting an outfit together.

    The difference between me and the LIE woman above is that I never criticize another person's clothing. I mean, how could I?

    P.S. My SLI ex never gave me much fashion advice (although, as @SongOfSapphire said, SLI can look casually elegant while wearing simple outfits), other than encouraging me to go to a store every once in a while to buy new clothes, and her restraint in this matter is probably why our marriage lasted as long as it did.
    On the other hand, my SLI son has frequently stopped me on my way out the door and said "Dad, where are you going?", and I would say "To meet some guys for business" and he would say "You look like you dressed yourself at the Salvation Army store" and I will think "What I wear is not going to affect this deal" but then I get insecure and wonder if it might, and I always end up going back upstairs and changing into something different.
    I don't know if this is Supervision or Si-PoLR, but I seem to have no defense against it.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-24-2016 at 07:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Some of my SEI friends and acquaintances also have enjoyed doing things that horrify me, such as keeping odd pets (that run around and touch me, or the SEIs insist that I touch the pets, like lizards and rats and goats), wearing pajamas in public, smoking lots of dope (I get sick from doing this), looking at pictures of broken and disgusting things, or pictures of boring things, and generally spending many many hours in an incredibly relaxed state. I remember describing to an SEI in chat here how an SEI friend of mine would do things like rub her bare foot all around the leg of a coffee table in a sinuous way that clearly was doing something positive for her internal state. She's a lovely person with a cute foot, but somehow this little action repeated during a long conversation set me deeply on edge. When things like that are constantly in the background, I feel uncertain of myself.
    I was always under the impression that someone with Si PoLR would be more likely to smoke lots of dope around odd pets in their pajamas and then go out without changing a thing because they didn't care about good or bad sensory shit, especially if defined by other people. But you're saying like the opposite, that they care so much about it that something small in the environment can set them off? This is cool to see what you have to say because I feel like Si PoLR has the least info of the PoLRs.
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    Some of my SEI friends and acquaintances also have enjoyed doing things that horrify me, such as keeping odd pets (that run around and touch me, or the SEIs insist that I touch the pets, like lizards and rats and goats), wearing pajamas in public, smoking lots of dope (I get sick from doing this), looking at pictures of broken and disgusting things, or pictures of boring things, and generally spending many many hours in an incredibly relaxed state. I remember describing to an SEI in chat here how an SEI friend of mine would do things like rub her bare foot all around the leg of a coffee table in a sinuous way that clearly was doing something positive for her internal state. She's a lovely person with a cute foot, but somehow this little action repeated during a long conversation set me deeply on edge. When things like that are constantly in the background, I feel uncertain of myself.
    Actually wouldn't Si doms recognize that you were uncomfortable in these situations, they're supposed to be good at recognizing others internal well being? And these things sound bizarre to me lol.

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    I don't really know EIE-SLI hit each other's polrs but I think I have a pretty good idea how SEI hits LIE Si polr. A stereotypical but never-the-less accurate example would be an SEI employee taking it easy at work while the SEI's LIE manager is stressing over meeting company productivity goals. LIEs often overload themselves with activities/projects they feel are absolutely necessary and observing SEIs getting off with living an easy life without doing anything productive towards society can fill them with contempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I don't really know EIE-SLI hit each other's polrs but I think I have a pretty good idea how SEI hits LIE Si polr. A stereotypical but never-the-less accurate example would be an SEI employee taking it easy at work while the SEI's LIE manager is stressing over meeting company productivity goals. LIEs often overload themselves with activities/projects they feel are absolutely necessary and observing SEIs getting off with living an easy life without doing anything productive towards society can fill them with contempt.
    This is pretty accurate. The following is my imperfect memory of an exchange between an LIE boss and an SEI worker.

    LIE: Did you meet your goals for this week?
    SEI: Uh, no. I got involved with this detail and spent the whole week trying to solve it.
    LIE (slightly amazed): Did you ask anyone for help? This is not a difficult problem.
    SEI (languidly): No, I spent some time thinking about it, and I did some research into it on the internet.
    LIE: But you didn't solve it.
    SEI: No.
    LIE: Look, we need your results for the meeting next week. This is important. We need to move on this. If you have problems, just come and see me.
    SEI: ..........
    LIE: Can you finish this by Tuesday?
    SEI: ..........
    LIE: Jeff?
    SEI: Are you talking to me?

    LIE suppresses desire to kill SEI on the spot, instead resolves to replace him ASAP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is pretty accurate. The following is my imperfect memory of an exchange between an LIE boss and an SEI worker.

    LIE: Did you meet your goals for this week?
    SEI: Uh, no. I got involved with this detail and spent the whole week trying to solve it.
    LIE (slightly amazed): Did you ask anyone for help? This is not a difficult problem.
    SEI (languidly): No, I spent some time thinking about it, and I did some research into it on the internet.
    LIE: But you didn't solve it.
    SEI: No.
    LIE: Look, we need your results for the meeting next week. This is important. We need to move on this. If you have problems, just come and see me.
    SEI: ..........
    LIE: Can you finish this by Tuesday?
    SEI: ..........
    LIE: Jeff?
    SEI: Are you talking to me?

    LIE suppresses desire to kill SEI on the spot, instead resolves to replace him ASAP.
    That's also you being like this.

    Or do you think an ESI would tolerate this kind of controlling behavior from you...? She'd probably just change jobs to get away or indirectly force you to do the job.

    My 2c regarding the topic: SLIs to me seem to live a good life in a fairly effortless way, they easily adapt to their current external circumstances, whereas I'm often pushing for more sometimes even not that realistically. I think SLIs "supervise" me more on the realism (Te) aspect, rather than Si, idk, what should they say, u dress badly? I mean they have IEEs and ILEs as duals and semi duals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    yes.

    I loved the video that @Eliza Thomason posted about the IEE bachelorette and her experience with the LSI guy. She literally felt overwhelmed by the experience of him.
    Which post in which link? (I don't remeber it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by universe View Post
    Actually wouldn't Si doms recognize that you were uncomfortable in these situations, they're supposed to be good at recognizing others internal well being? And these things sound bizarre to me lol.
    Don't think they read minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Which post in which link? (I don't remeber it).
    From a long time ago. I'll see if I can find it

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Don't think they read minds.
    Si as Leading Function

    A strong ability to recognize internal physical states in themselves and others, to understand how these states are reached, and to recreate and avoid these physical states.

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    i kind of imagine polr as being (metaphorically!) like the part in 'twilight: breaking dawn' when bella had to learn how to appear like a human (after becoming a vampire). the vampires didn't need to rest or relax - the only physical discomfort they experienced was the thirst for blood. with almost no other physical inclinations, the vampires are not compelled to do things like blink their eyes, or reposition themselves in their seats or any of the small physical things that people naturally do in response to discomfort, etc. in order to appear human, they thus must make a conscious effort to do all of these things (having to consciously tell yourself to blink all the time sounds like a nightmare btw). it would be odd for instance for a human to hold the same pose for hours on end (it would require discipline and stamina), but for the twilight vampire it's easy to just stay in one position for an incredibly long time with no inclination to move at all. the only reason to move would be to actually *do* something of use.

    i kind of see polr types as basically trying to fulfill their hidden agenda while lacking the inner cues that would help them do that - so for instance dressing in expensive clothes, maintaining the right posture, moving in the right way, so on - it's not that they are concerned with (who cares about the polr) but . e.g. "i don't want to look like an idiotically dressed clumsy person who physically presents in a way that will actually compromise my objectives because others think less of me for it. i wouldn't want them to think that maybe i don't have my shit together or don't really know what i am talking about because i'm some sort of loon who can't even dress him/herself properly." (borrowing heavily from what people said in this thread)

     
    although i gave up on my appearance years ago, i have been plotting my way to come to care about it again. i am usually limited by money, so i've never really dressed in a way that was all about how i prefer to dress without compromise. generally i prefer to have my own unique style that represents who i believe i am--i've just never quite achieved this due largely to money issues--but at times there has been something to it that is characteristic of me, even that others have noticed (i have preferences iow even if i can't say what they are). that my appearance represents me is usually more important to me by far than other's perceptions about my appearance. i have always been largely against trying to control the appearance of others as i see it as a mode of self-expression. i can also dislike uniforms if their style doesn't appeal to me. but if the style does appeal to me i can be pleased with a uniform.

    i've only really needed to worry about dressing for office jobs for the most part and that is fairly easy because there are stores that sell all the "office approved" clothing and so i can just pick something. usually it's not something i personally prefer but is closer to that than something i completely hate. i always feel confused about questions regarding what does and doesn't go well together both because i don't understand why that should matter and because i don't know what is that difficult about it that it could be a mystery. though i wear a lot of black and dark colors, so probably i'm not actually having to match that much stuff. i've never had to dress super formally and don't think i'd know what the proper formal attire would be. i imagine though if one had experience, this wouldn't be so mysterious either.

    once a gamma sf boss told me i looked dumpy in my clothes that day and oh did it pang through me. i feel like i have a rather earthy appearance in general, kind of like a troll, so usually a remark like that reminds me of something i feel is rather innate about me. usually comments on my appearance hit quite deeply, unless they are compliments, in which case i wonder if someone is just trying to be nice rather than saying the actual dreaded truth.

    i often don't notice what people are wearing, although i often don't notice people at all.
    Last edited by inumbra; 07-25-2016 at 04:12 AM.

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    i have a difficult time relating to certain aspects of Si described here... I think if I even have a sense of Si it is more intuitive than anything since I have little care to describe my sensations and get no joy from explaining them very descriptively the way say, a room decorator, wine taster, bed enthousiast, etc. might be able to do. Like I don't see the point when you could simply enjoy what you do instead of having to turn it into an intellectual thing. I'd hate to ever develop narrower tastes of what I already enjoy by trying to learn every minute detail that goes into them. It is like if you become a video game deceloper you enjoy video games less because they suddenly feel so ... fake and something you can't help but perceive as a project or a thing to be improved upon and critiqued than something artistic. Which is why I sympathize with the "epicurus" label for SEIs... Maximum enjoyment by not trying to ruin the magic of other peoples works by actually learning the work myself... ok that sounds awfully lazy and unproductively consumerist xP but it is true!!

    that being said... I think id be the one to suffer from my conflict relationship... Id be very stubborn quiet and maybe roll my eyes at their efforts to make me feel guilty or shameful of my lifestyle



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    adam's post reminds me of darth vader lol

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    EIEs and LIEs are at their most vulnerable when they use their mobilizing function (Se) too much. As using your mobilizing function always involves violating aspects related to the PoLR function (Si), you become an easy target for Si-lead types, who will point out to you that you are totally not accomplishing anything by using your Mobilizing.

    In the light of Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda concept (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...le=Pathetic_HA)

    behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

    an Si-lead will not be impressed by such behavior and will expose that you are actually not even capable of breaking an egg to bake an omelet, and that you aren't in control of anything, least of all yourself. And if needed, they will smack you in the head to make you cool down.

    If any of you might think that these sweet SEIs girls are easy push-overs, you have not yet met their ignoring function.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 07-25-2016 at 03:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chryssie View Post
    i have a difficult time relating to certain aspects of Si described here... I think if I even have a sense of Si it is more intuitive than anything since I have little care to describe my sensations and get no joy from explaining them very descriptively the way say, a room decorator, wine taster, bed enthousiast, etc. might be able to do. Like I don't see the point when you could simply enjoy what you do instead of having to turn it into an intellectual thing. I'd hate to ever develop narrower tastes of what I already enjoy by trying to learn every minute detail that goes into them. It is like if you become a video game deceloper you enjoy video games less because they suddenly feel so ... fake and something you can't help but perceive as a project or a thing to be improved upon and critiqued than something artistic. Which is why I sympathize with the "epicurus" label for SEIs... Maximum enjoyment by not trying to ruin the magic of other peoples works by actually learning the work myself... ok that sounds awfully lazy and unproductively consumerist xP but it is true!!

    that being said... I think id be the one to suffer from my conflict relationship... Id be very stubborn quiet and maybe roll my eyes at their efforts to make me feel guilty or shameful of my lifestyle
    Imo what you just described -- living and experiencing sensations as they come, enjoying them where possible -- is very Si-base, and is something that can perplex and/or deeply bother XIEs bc they cannot understand or relate unless you explain and intellectualize it, which as you say you aren't inclined to do (and even if you do, it probably won't be in a way XIEs particularly like, and they almost certainly won't relate).
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by universe View Post
    Si as Leading Function

    A strong ability to recognize internal physical states in themselves and others, to understand how these states are reached, and to recreate and avoid these physical states.
    Okay, so you disagree with my responses, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe you think I misunderstand the theory? Or are you trying to say that you think I am mistyped, or that I am mistyping others? Those are always possibilities around here. So I'll set those aside as they're kind of a conversational nonstarter.

    It would be unreasonable to expect people of any type to be able to restrain their primary mode of behavior in order to constantly placate people bothered by it. That's why this theory is able to construct ideas about supervision and conflict relations in the first place.

    In commonsense terms, I know I can alter my core behaviors only so much. People can ask me to change to make them happy, but if what they're requesting is for me to simply be a fundamentally different type of person than I am, nothing good will ultimately come of it.

    In socionics terms, one of the big problems I have in dealing with Fe polr people is that I am not able to snuff out my Fe in order to make them more comfortable. I can try very hard to do that, and it doesn't work for long. I can recognize what would make the situation go more smoothly, but the more I clamp down on my natural mode of expression, the more uptight and weird I get.

    The Si-dominant people I know tend to be thoughtful people who actually do go out of their way to see to my comfort. And they're fun, and interesting, and they teach me things. That's why some of them (SEIs) are good friends of mine. I enjoy their company, and they say they enjoy mine. The real problems start to emerge if, say, we live in the same household for a week or more solid. Things start to get difficult then. None of my good friends are ISTp, so far as I know, but I've had several in my birth family and among in-laws. They have usually tried hard to be nice to me, make polite conversation, give me good food, show me cool stuff, and so forth. It took time to discover the limits to this goodwill in the face of underlying disconnections, which seems like a shame.

    I used to fault socionics for not offering more solutions for overcoming intertype problems, but now I accept somewhat that the theory may be saying there aren't a lot of direct solutions, and the best -- indirect -- solution is to forge relationships with people who understand, accept, and value you, so that you have more psychological strength and resilience when dealing with people who have no clue what you're on about.
    Last edited by golden; 07-25-2016 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    EIEs and LIEs are at their most vulnerable when they use their mobilizing function (Se) too much. As using your mobilizing function always involves violating aspects related to the PoLR function (Si), you become an easy target for Si-lead types, who will point out to you that you are totally not accomplishing anything by using your Mobilizing.

    In the light of Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda concept (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...=Pathetic_HA):

    behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

    an Si-lead will not be impressed by such behavior and will expose that you are actually not even capable of breaking an egg to bake an omelet, and that you aren't in control of anything, least of all yourself. And if needed, they will smack you in the head to make you cool down.

    If any of you might think that these sweet SEIs girls are easy push-overs, you have not yet met their ignoring function.
    This is brilliant.

    It concisely explains why I tend to buy the more expensive item if I don't know enough about it to judge it on its functional merits, why I worked to out-earn my SLI father (and did from my early 20's on, but it didn't impress him in the slightest, because I wasn't earning money in a way that he respected), and why, when I got divorced, my SLI ex financially bitch-slapped me and walked away with an approximately 60:40 split in her favor because she started crying at the division of assets and I felt sorry for her.

    I swear to God, SLI's are cold, calculating asset hoarders at heart. And I'm an idiot.

    I need a time machine. I want to hit the RESET button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Okay, so you disagree with my responses, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe you think I misunderstand the theory? Or are you trying to say that you think I am mistyped, or that I am mistyping others? Those are always possibilities around here. So I'll set those aside as they're kind of a conversational nonstarter.

    It would be unreasonable to expect people of any type to be able to restrain their primary mode of behavior in order to constantly placate people bothered by it. That's why this theory is able to construct ideas about supervision and conflict relations in the first place.

    In commonsense terms, I know I can alter my core behaviors only so much. People can ask me to change to make them happy, but if what they're requesting is for me to simply be a fundamentally different type of person than I am, nothing good will ultimately come of it.

    In socionics terms, one of the big problems I have in dealing with Fe polr people is that I am not able to snuff out my Fe in order to make them more comfortable. I can try very hard to do that, and it doesn't work for long. I can recognize what would make the situation go more smoothly, but the more I clamp down on my natural mode of expression, the more uptight and weird I get.

    The Si-dominant people I know tend to be thoughtful people who actually do go out of their way to see to my comfort. That's why some of them (SEIs) are good friends of mine. I enjoy their company, and they say they enjoy mine. The real problems start to emerge if, say, we live in the same household for a week or more solid. Things start to get difficult then. None of my good friends are ISTp, so far as I know, but I've had several in my birth family and among in-laws. They have usually tried hard to be nice to me, make polite conversation, give me good food, show me cool stuff, and so forth. It took time to discover the limits to this goodwill in the face of underlying disconnections, which seems like a shame.

    I used to fault socionics for not offering more solutions for overcoming intertype problems, but now I accept somewhat that the theory is kind of saying there aren't any solutions, or that the best solution is to forge relationships with people who understand you, so that you have more psychological strength and resilience when dealing with people who have no clue what you're on about.
    Honestly, Golden, I'm coming to the same conclusion.

    Socionics can be criticized for seeming to describe only the ways in which relationships can go wrong, but I have to say, in my limited experience, it describes those ways pretty well.

    I have consciously used socionics to sometimes improve an interaction with another type by acting in a certain way or by saying something specific to them that is intended to pour oil on troubled waters, but this kind of behavior is not natural to me, and as you say, it is impossible to sustain it for long periods of time.

    Life confronts us with enough challenges. There is no reason to add to them by trying to please people who aren't moving in the same direction.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-25-2016 at 03:21 PM.

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    just so you all know, i find se ha impressive

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    EIEs and LIEs are at their most vulnerable when they use their mobilizing function (Se) too much. As using your mobilizing function always involves violating aspects related to the PoLR function (Si), you become an easy target for Si-lead types, who will point out to you that you are totally not accomplishing anything by using your Mobilizing.

    In the light of Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda concept (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...=Pathetic_HA):
    When I clicked on that link it said "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs." So I Googled it and you can read it here:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-hidden-agenda


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

    an Si-lead will not be impressed by such behavior and will expose that you are actually not even capable of breaking an egg to bake an omelet, and that you aren't in control of anything, least of all yourself. And if needed, they will smack you in the head to make you cool down.

    If any of you might think that these sweet SEIs girls are easy push-overs, you have not yet met their ignoring function.
    LOL! They are sweet, but they have their inner core of strength. Great example.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Okay, so you disagree with my responses, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe you think I misunderstand the theory? Or are you trying to say that you think I am mistyped, or that I am mistyping others? Those are always possibilities around here. So I'll set those aside as they're kind of a conversational nonstarter.
    I don't disagree to your responses? I was wondering how the person who was rubbing their foot on the coffee table couldn't see that it was making you uncomfortable, for example, when they're supposed to be what that description says. I'm not asking you to answer it, it's just a thought I had.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    When I clicked on that link it said "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs." So I Googled it and you can read it here:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-hidden-agenda


    LOL! They are sweet, but they have their inner core of strength. Great example.
    The link got improperly automatically set up by the forum software, this is what it should have been:

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...le=Pathetic_HA

    Of course, the original message on this forum is the original source.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by universe View Post
    I don't disagree to your responses? I was wondering how the person who was rubbing their foot on the coffee table couldn't see that it was making you uncomfortable, for example, when they're supposed to be what that description says. I'm not asking you to answer it, it's just a thought I had.
    I found the foot rubbing both cute and creepy and I doubt that I gave any indication I was disturbed by it. What would I do? Stare, make an expression of disgust? No. If I like someone, I focus on the things I like about them when I'm interacting with them, and the things that bother me I save to digest later. Sometimes they're hard to digest, like if I think about that foot rubbing thing, it still seems really weird to me and I don't understand what it's about. That's part of why I remember it so clearly. Very hard to process, though it's a small detail.

    If I lived with someone and they had a habit like that I would try to find polite reasons to leave the room when they were doing it. After a while this would get awkward. I doubt they would figure out that something so innocuous as rubbing their foot on a coffee table leg was the reason for my avoidance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane
    I used to fault socionics for not offering more solutions for overcoming intertype problems, but now I accept somewhat that the theory may be saying there aren't a lot of direct solutions, and the best -- indirect -- solution is to forge relationships with people who understand, accept, and value you, so that you have more psychological strength and resilience when dealing with people who have no clue what you're on about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Honestly, Golden, I'm coming to the same conclusion.

    Socionics can be criticized for seeming to describe only the ways in which relationships can go wrong, but I have to say, in my limited experience, it describes those ways pretty well.

    I have consciously used socionics to sometimes improve an interaction with another type by acting in a certain way or by saying something specific to them that is intended to pour oil on troubled waters, but this kind of behavior is not natural to me, and as you say, it is impossible to sustain it for long periods of time.

    Life confronts us with enough challenges. There is no reason to add to them by trying to please people who aren't moving in the same direction.
    I agree, @goldenbane and @Adam Strange. Socionics is a wonderful tool for understanding others, and for avoiding conflicts at times...but imo interpersonal problems in some intertype relationships are unavoidable in the long term w close contact, and the beauty of socionics is that it de-personalizes that, helps us understand, and helps us seek out more positive relations and minimize negative ones. That's why I don't understand why some people say it doesn't matter if you marry a dual or eg a supervisee if you're both healthy. It absoutely matters, and imo/ime you will be better off to seek out a dual (who, yes, is psychologically healthy). /slightly off-topic mini-rant
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    I used to fault socionics for not offering more solutions for overcoming intertype problems, but now I accept somewhat that the theory may be saying there aren't a lot of direct solutions, and the best -- indirect -- solution is to forge relationships with people who understand, accept, and value you, so that you have more psychological strength and resilience when dealing with people who have no clue what you're on about.
    This is indeed what Socionics is trying to tell us. That being said, Socionics can help deal with situations in the short term. E.g. in my job I frequently have to work with beta chefs. If they get angry for some reason and start an argument, the inclination of Alphas and Deltas is to come up with counter-arguments to explain why things are as they are. This is not what Betas-STs want to hear. So nowadays when I get into such situations I answer: "Yes chef, I will take care of it", without going into further discussion about who did what wrong. And at the end of the day call my agency not to send me to that place again.

    I know a chef from a large locally famous hotel restaurant who has his staff walking on eggshells and easily goes into a tantrum if anything goes wrong. A made it into a thing to look him straight into the eyes each time I meet him and demonstrative say: "Good morning Chef!" Recently I accidentally left something in a place where it shouldn't have been and he found it, and he shouted "WHO THE FUCK LEFT THIS OVER HERE?" So I replied, "That must have been my mistake chef, I'll immediately take care of it" He: "Oh, no worries. no problem!" Some of the regulars then quietly said to me I was crazy for telling him I did that. However, I have the feeling that this chef is now walking on eggshell for me ;-)

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...ork-floor.html
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    i don't really know what Si is and always thought that i probably have incredibly low Si which cannot be THAT much worse in LIE/EIE (because i am obviously quite bad at it already). i always assumed that the things that i most struggle with are a combination of weak Si and Te (and cannot attribute which is which). i had a driving practice today and the other person was a LIE (and the instructor either SLI-Te or LSE.) the LIE did have severe difficulties of how to use the brake of the car with the right body posture (internal weight) and the instructor had to explain it to him. (even though we both already passed the exam for our driver's license). i was like, is this how Si-polr looks like ... honestly, i had 1 million problems when trying to learn how to drive, but this is certainly not one of them. i didn't even get, what they were talking about, but i was told that i do it correctly.

    i've recently seen a EIE-Ni (in a class led by an SEI-Si) trying to create and environment (landscape) by putting different textures together. it made aesthetically zero sense, everything was broken and mismatched. (honestly i've never seen anything like this before, i don't even know how you can come up with something like that) and already had a, wait, what? that's Si-polr?! moment. the teacher would not comment on it. (she would be suspiciously quiet on this, however)

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    I love wearing pajamas in public

    sweater pajama pants dress socks and running shoes

    its the new uniform

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    When you are in an argument say: "First of all, brush your teeth..!"
    It destroys them.
    {{{ post.meaningful_quote }}}

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I love wearing pajamas in public

    sweater pajama pants dress socks and running shoes

    its the new uniform
    This is EXACTLY why I go to a store and find someone with good Si taste to pick out my clothes for me.

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    I might be SLI. Can't say I'm good with clothes though, at all. I don't pay enough attention to appearance so I never know what's normal.

    I don't know about EIE/LIE, but there are some people I feel are always doing things the hard way by getting super upset about every little setback and being too attached to outcomes. Will get visibly frustrated and angry if things aren't going the way they want them to, and make everyone around them upset. One of the people I have in mind also tends to be too harsh, lacks gentleness or sensitivity, and when someone is sick he often gets angry and blames them for it. He also reacts that way to physical deterioration of objects even when it's clear that it's just normal wear and tear and not anyone's fault.

    I knew an EIE once but I don't really have any Si criticism of her. She was just kind of loud and pretty much my opposite, we had nothing in common and didn't get along well.

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    Word Definition Warrior – WDW Troll Nr 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I love wearing pajamas in public

    sweater pajama pants dress socks and running shoes

    its the new uniform
    '

    Pajamas. Don't wear them. Why people wear them?

    I wear boxer shorts in public (and trousers).

    People wear short trousers in summer. Maybe I should.

    LIE buys short trousers made of most expensive material and gold encrusted belt buckle with fur filled expensive boots. Couples it with diamond necklace without shirt and hockey goalie helmet painted by expensive artist.
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 07-03-2017 at 12:13 PM.
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    because enneagram is just too simple and therefore we need to develop a new classification system called Rhombic triacontahedron with life module containing eukaryotes, prokaryotes and virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isptn View Post
    I might be SLI. Can't say I'm good with clothes though, at all. I don't pay enough attention to appearance so I never know what's normal.

    I don't know about EIE/LIE, but there are some people I feel are always doing things the hard way by getting super upset about every little setback and being too attached to outcomes. Will get visibly frustrated and angry if things aren't going the way they want them to, and make everyone around them upset. One of the people I have in mind also tends to be too harsh, lacks gentleness or sensitivity, and when someone is sick he often gets angry and blames them for it. He also reacts that way to physical deterioration of objects even when it's clear that it's just normal wear and tear and not anyone's fault.

    I knew an EIE once but I don't really have any Si criticism of her. She was just kind of loud and pretty much my opposite, we had nothing in common and didn't get along well.
    SLI is pretty much a minimalist, and upbringing makes a difference. Being good with clothes is a matter how much your environment forces you to, or how much practise you have. It's like cooking for SLIs, it's not necessarily a sign, although when they learn it, they have great talent. Not innate one, it's all a matter of acquired skill/knowledge. What is it that you would rather pay attention to? Depending on how you define it, appearance is while taking care of your inner, personal comfort is the way, although it covers aesthetics - what is pleasing to oneself - as well.

    The hard way, outcomes: yeah, this is -. What is his reasoning for blaming the person?

    Ok, there are also other elements at play. Loud can be a criticism of having low yourself or just discomfort, while not getting along well/being "magnetically repelling" opposites is .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    SLI is pretty much a minimalist, and upbringing makes a difference. Being good with clothes is a matter how much your environment forces you to, or how much practise you have. It's like cooking for SLIs, it's not necessarily a sign, although when they learn it, they have great talent. Not innate one, it's all a matter of acquired skill/knowledge. What is it that you would rather pay attention to? Depending on how you define it, appearance is while taking care of your inner, personal comfort is the way, although it covers aesthetics - what is pleasing to oneself - as well.
    Yeah, I think that's how it should be. External aesthetics (appearance) is Se, whereas Si is internal aesthetics as in how it feels to experience something. I think things like color combinations and taste combinations may be more Se as well. I don't notice subtleties of taste or imagine what tastes might go well together, I don't think I'd be good at that. Instead my cooking successes have come from being willing to try interesting dishes that have potential, are easy to make and will taste good for what it is rather than how well it's prepared. Like poke, for instance. It's literally just rice, raw tuna, and avocado or seaweed, with some rice vinegar. If you make it, it will taste good because poke tastes good. I think Si perceives things in terms of the whole experience, whereas Se focuses more on the details. The whole experience of poke is that it tastes good. An Se approach to preparing poke might focus on the details of preparation and external aesthetics, arranging the ingredients so it looks nice and fancy, adding a variety of ingredients like cucumber, carrot, peppers, etc., and making the preparation look quick and skillful. Me on the other hand, I notice my fatigue when cooking so I prefer to keep things simple and easy such as using few ingredients so there's less preparation involved and I can conserve my energy. I'd rather go out to eat because I find that more pleasant than cooking.

    The hard way, outcomes: yeah, this is -. What is his reasoning for blaming the person?
    I don't think he has reasoning, he is just anger-prone and externalizes.

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