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Thread: EII/INFj Antagonists in Fiction

  1. #41
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    Here are the tropes that most EII (and IEE) villains will usually fall into:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...tifiesTheMeans

    Basically a villain of this nature usually has humanitarian/utopian ideals they have taken way too far and will not compromise on. Even worse, they have somehow got into a position of power, leading to extremely negative consequences for everyone around them.

    The protagonist in a situation like this will probably be a Ni ego anti-hero of some sort, the moral theme being that good intentions do not always lead to good outcomes.

  2. #42
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    The Xenogears/saga series had ethical-oriented villians:
    http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Karellen - Very tragic EII anti-villian, you can easily tell from reading his quotes

    and his beta counterpart from a similar game

    http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhelm - IEI

    In spite of stereotypes, I feel EII's make excellent villains, albeit tragic.

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    Nobody can really come up with a good exampme, beacause all the "cool" EIIs are mistyped as IEIs anyway.
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    vespertine, I think I've finally got it

    haku from naruto

    haku was a young boy who inherited a rare ninja technique from his mother, which rendered both of them a threat to their village, which was pillaged by ninja that wielded similar ninja techniques in the past, so his father and a mob of villagers banded together to kill his mother, but when they tried to kill haku, his ninja technique activated and wiped the mob out. that's when orphaned little haku met zabuza (ninja with questionable morale) who proposed that haku become his new "weapon", which haku gladly accepted, as it gave him a "purpose", even if he was too young to comprehend the nature of his newfound "purpose". however, all throughout their murderous escapades together, haku made a point to cause the least amount of damage possible. at times he'd even put his opponents in a death-like trance to dissuade them from fighting any further, in order to preserve their lives... but haku's soft-hearted nature aside, he was - for all intents and purposes - still an "antagonist" and it wasn't until the arc unfolded that we got a peek into his past and realized the "good" underlying the "evil". haku had merely formed an unlikely alliance with someone who coerced haku into doing his dirty work for him.

    I think this is the most likely path for EII antagonists. their naivete is taken advantage of by someone with an "evil" agenda, either because 1. they have no real say in the matter - caught between a rock and a hard place - so they pursue that path but they do so with a humanitarian bend by creating the illusion that they're doing more "evil" than they really are, or 2. they're tricked into it by being offered love, or even kindness, under the false pretense that their actions will make the community or the world a better place, and in turn, they partake in "evil" words or deeds without realizing that they are.
    Last edited by wasp; 10-07-2017 at 04:23 AM.
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  5. #45
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    I think the evil we see in others is in large part projection rooted in the need to see the need for our gifts in the other such that the projection is most "valid" as applied to our dual. thus when we speak of evil we rarely see ourselves for what we are, which I think in the case of EII would actually be a failure of Ti Se, or a more picturesque way to put it would be: the failure to get off the couch. the real EII villian would be the total slob that can't make a coherent impact on anything or anyone... when we talk about the misguided but well intentioned misdeeds we're really talking about our dual and I actually think our vision of that is instructive as to our own type. in other words, EII is psychologically predisposed to find certain things in need of assistance but it is in many ways the projection of the ego's capabilities of offering correction to those who need them most, which would be those people who act in accordance with shared values, but imperfectly. that would be essentially "same" (rather than "other") i.e. fundamentally "familiar" yet "wrong" people (wasp seems to be describing LSE or maybe ILE, to me) etc (i.e. those close enough that our advice would apply to them and is welcome versus to those whom it is alien, even wilting when applied to them: conflictors, etc)

    Dostoevsky himself explores this a bit when he imagines the devil as coming in the form of something we least expect: mediocre, underwhelming, disappointing, etc.. that is the true "evil" in EII

    whereas to be a villain in the traditional storybook sense you already possess a great many heroic qualities, especially if they applied to EII. its hard to imagine an asskicking world changing EII who is also a villian because they wouldn't really be evil... however it is easy to imagine an asskicking world changing SLE who is a villian according to what an EII values. In some sense the nature of entertaining fiction is anathema to creating a centerpiece out of EII as villian, it is in some sense a contradiction...

    an EII villian in fiction would look like heroin, not hero, it would tempt others by lulling them into complacency via a false morality that inured them to their misdeeds and lead them down a road wherein they were self satisfied with an empty existence: essentially using Fi and Ne as a way to justify inaction and lack of positive change to the absolute corruption and degradation of those around them, but not in an aggressive offensive manner, but in a self consumptive totally bland way. think those people in the grocery store you can hardly bear to look at...

    films like requiem for a dream come closest to portraying the darkside of EII as far as I can tell

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    Cipher is a perfect example.


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    Here's another female EII-Ne antagonist:



    lmao

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    Of course, Hannibal Lecter (EII-Fi):



    Lecter essentially has the same style of information processing as Catherine Trammel.

    Fi cognition is an internal mirror of other people's inner worlds. It would be like having another person inside your skin, that you're constantly introspecting to. Fi has heightened capacity to experience that other person's thoughts/memories/goals/discomforts/impressions and grasp the other persons' psychology as if it were organic to their own. See the car-ride clip from basic instinct. in the meantime, the EII's own thoughts/memories/goals/discomforts/drives are pushed out of cognition and wind up in the PoLR.

    Fi/Ne cognition excels at envisioning/anticipating/forecasting immediate and distant futures for the person....so the possibile ways in which the surrounding context will effect that person's psychology. in the clip you see lecter fishing for information that he can use to deepen his internal mirror of clarice.

    EII vs IEE: The difference between Fi/Ne and Ne/Fi is Fi/Ne is drained by any environment/situation where they aren't directly involved with the person/people they have internally mirrored. Ne/Fi mirroring cognition reflects more the other person's external world and outer responses/inflections but doesn't go as inward. Ne/Fi mirroring changes rapidly from one environment to the next and just mirrors enough to adapt/blend in socially. It's very easy to tell who the EII has in their internal mirror because that's who they will constantly talk and/or wonder about.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 02-10-2018 at 10:14 PM.

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    Never really thought a EII would be able to break free of shackles, murder two prisons guards, hall them up into rafters, and skin them. :/

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    Look at cognition for socionics type. It's a theory of information processing, not behaviors. Anything goes in terms of behavior.

    Lecter's psychopathic behavior can be chalked up to the fact he's a psychopath. any psychopath would look for an opportunity to escape and have no qualms about murdering the guards...nonetheless the escape plan he devised contained nuances peculiar to Fi/Ne cognition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imarite View Post
    Never really thought a EII would be able to break free of shackles, murder two prisons guards, hall them up into rafters, and skin them. :/
    A clear contradiction.

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    Joanna from The Commuter:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    Nobody can really come up with a good exampme, beacause all the "cool" EIIs are mistyped as IEIs anyway.
    Betas are always​ the villains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spermatozoa View Post
    Basically a villain of this nature usually has humanitarian/utopian ideals they have taken way too far and will not compromise on.
    This is still more Beta (or Alpha NT, à la Robespierre) than Delta.

    The problem with Deltas is that they're the grounded ones. They make better protagonists than antagonists.

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    Stratiyevskaya is generally good at critiquing and giving insight into the less savory motivations of every sociotype. Here, this article cuts fairly sharply into the EII.

    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya

    As has been mentioned, Stratiyevskaya's storytelling is approximately high level socionics fanfiction.

    Mainly, I find that EIIs can be sometimes: 1) selfish and self promoting and hording of their privileged comforts or of their surface prestige, 2) insecurely toxicly defensive of an uncritical foggy eyed self perception of their own prestige, 3) stagnant and insulated away from radical creative rethinking.

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    Gwyneth Paltrow.







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    Unintentional cruelty is probably what that would look more like rather than intentional...

  17. #57
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    Nancy Pelosi. I'm pretty sure Beautiful sky is up for something as well.

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