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Thread: Conceptual learning and ENTps

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    Default Conceptual learning and ENTps

    Unlike many of their NT brothers and sisters, ENTPs are not detail oriented people and we learn in a very different way than pretty much everyone but our ENFP cousins.

    We are conceptual learners. Rather than learn all the details of a topic, instead, I understand the concept behind it. I do not require details to understand a concept. I actually prefer not to have the details.

    An example would be if you wanted me to learn division. Do not put a bunch of numbers in from of me, the formula, and expect me to learn through repetition. All that time you took is wasted when all you had to do is draw a picture of a circle and draw a line through it and say there, "that's division". Then show me the method on how to achieve it.

    This is how EN*Ps learn. But from school to learning manuals, the world is not designed for the EN*P. We get frustrated because we know that this could be simplified so much for us and that the way we are often forced to learn is completely wrong for us.

    When I was younger, I thought I might have a learning disability or something because of this. Now that I'm older I see its not a disability at all, just not the way the world is setup to function.

    For most to understand concepts, you have to build them up to it with details. I'm the exact reverse. I also understand these concepts in such a deep way its what allows me to make "intuitive leaps" as I've heard it called.

    For most of these intuitive leaps though, detail is actually not required. I see it, but it unerves some people. For some reason though, the INTjs seem to think its cool.

    Then there comes to argument eventually, well what if you are wrong. Well, then I learn. Then I see where my thinking was faulty and try to ensure it doesn't happen again. Each time I'm wrong it increases my intuitive abilities quite a bit.

    So to those who poo poo on ENTPs for spouting off their concepts (which may very well be wrong), realize that everytime you actually try to deter them from doing this rather than merely pointing out their error, you are actually hurting their growth.

    I am only now, starting to realize just how powerful my intuitive abilities are. I would not know this if I didn't exercise and train them. ENTPs should be informed of their errors but encouraged in the use of their intuitive abilities.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    I was like that for a long time, too. Over the last coup[le of years though, all you have to do is give me a small detail and boom I can extrapolate like the wind. I can go parts to whole and whole to parts pretty fast.

    However, I do seem to be logistically impaired. Often I need help with this.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I've been like that too over the last few years. I stopped listening to all those people who made me think what I was doing was impossible and stopped fearing so much about being wrong.

    I'm usually right, but its the fear of being wrong which kept me from doing it. If required, I can actually seek out and find the information to prove my ideas.

    What do you mean by logistically impaired?

    I feel impaired sometimes when I have a lot of details to look at. Its like I know so many of them are unnecessary to the task at hand I feel very frustrated. Its kind of like if I wanted to start my own company. I could come up with idea and see all the areas which need to be worked on but I do actually quite often need help from a more detail oriented person to achieve anything.

    All my positions in life though have demanded both of me so you have to compensate. Including being a secretary .

    The only way to describe it to people is that I can take a very small piece of information and make connections in my subconscious with it. What spews out is relevant data.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    This what what you sayed Polly, made me firm to have an opinnion that you and Blaze are really ENTps. The getting the concept from the air, is and building it together and taking it appart is . The last one how you described it, shows that it is also your Spontanious Realisation. One way to discover that you have the other function, is to realisate spontaniously. Like solving math quikly and making jumps while doing it. But you can also manage your libido (I mean the word in Jungian sence, which is the life energy) into your inner world. To do that, you will also need to conquer your other function. When you have inegrated your secondary with your ego, your conciousness has expanded. There are life phases like the psychologists say and to I believe that this expantion of cunciousness and integration of new parts with your ego, is also action of taking your rest of the functions to use. And one phase is the start of the individuation process, which sets a task into persons life journy, to integrate your secondary strongly with your I as one thing.

    This is just a start. The socionics third function is conected somewhow with the jungian female and male parts of the psychic reality. The Anima and the Animus. I believe there are good Anima/Animus and the bad. The bad ones are connected with your role one. The good ones with your Superid block.

    Then there is the Shadow. The Superego is the Shadow block more like. The most painfull parts of your shadow are located in your Vulnerable Function, but Role-Anima/mus is also a shadowlike. I mean they are partly also parts of the Shadow. To integrate your shadow, you will have to integrate your Superego.

    And then there is Superid. I believe the renewing of the libido takes place in there. So to mainipulate with your lifepower, you will need to integrate your third block. Also your positive female/male side is hidden into there.

    This is my theory. After Anima/mus comes the Self. I don't know where it is located. I haven't found it yet in my Model A . But at some point the whole Model with your 8 functions will evoluate into one whole function. Your conciousness and unconciousness will be summed together. Self is also not only a archetype, but the whole us who we are and can ever be. So this all what I just told, is also coming into yourself. But the process is endless. There are always new ways to grow.

    This is my experience with the socionics. Perhaps it 's all just a loonatic fantasy of a 23 year old boy.
    Semiotical process

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    Not me, I have to have details. When I look at a system, it all must make sense logically, otherwise it is frustrating, and I will end up leaving it or fixing it.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    Not me, I have to have details. When I look at a system, it all must make sense logically, otherwise it is frustrating, and I will end up leaving it or fixing it.
    You told you need to have sence. This shows you are T . Your tone is strong, I say you are T as Confidence. Show you are Tj. ENTj or ESTj probably. But it's just my guess and I am nobody. I am really unimportant, not even a psychologist, but still interested in this subject. Talking about it in serious way. Acting like better than others. It's all ridicilous. I know it. Still I can't stop it. Everytime I forget myself and am myself naturally, I start theorizeing about the psychology. I understand that I only make fool out of myself, but I still do it. So to feel guilt afterwords. I think this shows for you out there the nature of the man's will. It understands what is wrong, but still decides to do the unwisfull deed.
    Semiotical process

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    I have a thinking subtype. I know this because I am static, I remember everything in still pictures ( )

    I know that I am an introverted subtype of an extrovert because my weakness is not or .

    I am good at strategy and looking at possibilities, so I am more of a than .

    ENTp with subtype
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    I actually do not like the form of "learning" that you are describing as it can create a lot of misunderstanding, general problems, and redundancy because types seem to only care to learn whatever material is being presented and have no idea about the limitations of the thought itself or that which can be found in its development. The concept of "standing on the shoulders of giants" comes to mind when I think of this type of "learning" as it seems the person who does this does not usually understand the concept in depth at all. The one benefit of this is that the approach to the information is not the same as that of its antecedents which leads to greater flexibility in application than is possible by the other method. It leads to new material more quickly because there is no progression of development, the enxp just comes in and a radical shift in the concept of the concept occurs.

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    Jimbeam, I didn't understand a thing. There was too little information. But I don't want to re-type you because in order to do that I will have to carry out an interview with you. A socionics interview. I am not able to do that because I am totally unexperienced and I am sure that one can't learn to make it by himself alone. Someone will have to teach me.

    But it sounded more like to me than . If you are interested in how strong your really is, then build some theory . Match diferent ideas into one explanetion . That is what the creative and building secondary Thinking Introverted is about. Forming one from many diferent opinions and ideas. The socionics itself is a good example of this . Kempinsky, Jung- the old forgotten theorys summed together with the futurescience the cybernetics to form a new psychology field.

    And my selfpity was too pathetic . I exaggerated the problem into too important. I just make fool out of myself. The question of mans will and how he does the wrong deed when knowing what is moral, is an important issue. Like when someone drinks the last money, but he's children will need new clothes and food, then such copmpare is used adecuately. In case when someone, me, mumbles about some psycho speech, the problem is not major. So it's tragedy-comical . And more of comical than being a tragedy.
    Semiotical process

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    Default Re: ENTPs and learning

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    Unlike many of their NT brothers and sisters, ENTPs are not detail oriented people and we learn in a very different way than pretty much everyone but our ENFP cousins.
    yes...

    I can't say for certain what my learning process is... but it is definitely conceptual, not tactile, visual, or otherwise.

    I have described it before as spatial intuition, even though that in itself is a poor descriptor.

    Spatial intuition is being able to recognize where concepts fit in relation to each other where no clear logic or only fuzzy logic links them.

    With that said I think ENTPs are capable in being able to sort out fuzzy logic and rationalize it into clear empirical logic.

    I had a really good working relationship with my physics Lab partner (INTJ?) while she was awesome at memorizing formula, pulling out all sorts of arcane "cheats", or totally buzzkilling any of my brilliance, we made a great team though, she was totally brilliant but when it came to conceptualizing anything I absolutely crushed her and everyone else in my class.
    / ILE - E(NT)p? 7w8 so/sx

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Both ENFp and ENTp are extroverted. They need people who know how to listen both to get feedback on their ideas but also and perhaps more importantly, because while speaking they are really hearing themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by oakey
    I had a really good working relationship with my physics Lab partner (INTJ?) while she was awesome at memorizing formula, pulling out all sorts of arcane "cheats", or totally buzzkilling any of my brilliance, we made a great team though, she was totally brilliant but when it came to conceptualizing anything I absolutely crushed her and everyone else in my class.
    Intuition dominant (ENTp, INFp, INTp, ENFp) are the most intelligent types in the socion. Their function is to protect the knowledge of the quadra they belong to.

    For intelligence I use of the principle of reciprocity. If you are able to understand annother person, but the other person is not able to understand you, then you're the most intelligent of the two.

    Also, did you ever noticed that there are just a few representatives of this types among history characters? Coincidence?
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    For intelligence I use of the principle of reciprocity. If you are able to understand annother person, but the other person is not able to understand you, then you're the most intelligent of the two.
    Or you're unable to communicate effectively.

    Also, did you ever noticed that there are just a few representatives of this types among history characters? Coincidence?
    That's plainly wrong.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Intuition dominant (ENTp, INFp, INTp, ENFp) are the most intelligent types in the socion.

    Also, did you ever noticed that there are just a few representatives of this types among history characters?

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    aahhh didn't see this but polly asked me what i meant by logistically impaired.

    being logistically impaired means not managing the logistics of things well or creatively. flow charts are classic logistical tools - i hate these. i'd rather come up with the overall strategy or idea.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Or you're unable to communicate effectively.
    My point remains. Each type possess an unique way of communication. If your identical understands you, then you're "expressing yourself effectively".

    If you ever read the Human Comedy of Balzac (INTp), you'll quickly notice that the characters inside of it are perfectly realistic, becase Balzac knew exactly how such characters thought. This implies an ability to mimic other people's way of thinking. Such broader spectrum implies more intelligence, because intelligence is about understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    That's plainly wrong.
    You bet? Open a history book and tell me how many characters you can identify as such types.

    It's not that those types are not influetial; it's that they tend to influence the socion indirectly and thus rarely are credited for their contributions. For example, when Titus, the roman emperor (which I see as ESFp) met Flavius Josephus (which I see as INTp), immediatly started to benefit from Josephus' insight, which probably contributed a great deal to the victory of the romans in a very difficult, lasting and expensive war.

    Josephus knew the essence of the Jewish people very well and wanted the romans to leave them alone, probably because he was aware of the level of fanatism they were capable of and didn't want it to spread. He respected the ethnicity of the jews, but recognized that the roman-helenic way of thinking was much more advanced in many areas, and belived that jews could "synchronize" with it. He was ahead of his time by much; without the diaspora, christianity would probably never had been adopted inside the roman empire, and thus we could have avoided the dark edge completelly. Most of the knowledge of the ancient world was destroyed because it was "pagan".

    Anyway, Titus is far more famous than Josephus today.
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    Creepy-Diana

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