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Thread: ESFJ (MBTI) vs ESFj (Socionics)

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    Default ESFJ (MBTI) vs ESFj (Socionics)

    Hey folks,

    I want to better understand the differences between an ESFJ (MBTI) and an ESFj (Socionics.) Does anyone (ignore this post, Sol) have any suggestions for links to comprehensive and direct comparisons between the two?

    Much appreciated,


    FF
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousFunk View Post
    I want to better understand the differences between an ESFJ (MBTI) and an ESFj (Socionics)
    In short, - it's same types, so there is no sense to write them differently.
    There are no special types in Socionics or MBT, as both claim to use Jung's typology. They are fully compatible on the level of dichotomies.
    The difference is in part of the theory used to describe same types. MBT types people to same types (when does it correctly by preferences), but gives partly incorrect and narrower their description.

    The most difference is for introverted types. MBT thinks wrongly their functions as for quasi-identical types. INTJ is described with functions of INTP. Extraverted types have no this bs, they have same functions as Jung said them and hence same with Socionics.

    There is some difference how 8 functions are described. It's same functions, the difference is only in secondary details of their descriptions. As MBT messes much lesser with anything besides dichotomies, their worse functions descriptions don't disturb them much.

    To understand the situation you need to read and compare direct descriptions of dichotomies in Socionics/Jung and in MBT. Then do same for 8 functions. And finaly check how functions are placed for ESFJ type in both. That's it.
    Additionally you may compare descriptions of types. You may notice differences there, but it's because lame descriptions, not because of different types. Also Socionics describes type by model with all 8 functions, while MBT uses only 4 functions and says nothing about other ones (while these functions are evidently available for consciousness, in more or lesser degree).
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Once in my life I agree with Sol (it will rain frogs today). The only difference that MBTI paints everything in a more positive light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In short, - it's same types, so there is no sense to write them differently.

    There are no special types in Socionics or MBT, as both claim to use Jung's typology. They are fully compatible on the level of dichotomies.

    The difference is in part of the theory used to describe same types. MBT types people to same types (when does it correctly by preferences), but gives partly incorrect and narrower their description.

    The most difference is for introverted types. MBT thinks wrongly their functions as for quasi-identical types. INTJ is described with functions of INTP. Extraverted types have no this bs, they have same functions as Jung said them and hence same with Socionics.

    There is some difference how 8 functions are described. It's same functions, the difference is only in secondary details of their descriptions. As MBT messes much lesser with anything besides dichotomies, their worse functions descriptions don't disturb them much.

    To understand the situation you need to read and compare direct descriptions of dichotomies in Socionics/Jung and in MBT. Then do same for 8 functions. And finaly check how functions are placed for ESFJ type in both. That's it.

    Additionally you may compare descriptions of types. You may notice differences there, but it's because lame descriptions, not because of different types. Also Socionics describes type by model with all 8 functions, while MBT uses only 4 functions and says nothing about other ones (while these functions are evidently available for consciousness, in more or lesser degree).
    Finally! Thanks sol.

    I found this link that attempts to explain what that looks like in both the extroverted and introverted types. It works for extroverted types types when you are just doing the function stack comparisons.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/commen...unctions_esfj/

    PRETEXT

    MBTI and Socionics are differing perspectives to the theories of Carl Jung. In terms of consistency, types on MBTI and Socionics are the same. HOWEVER in MBTI it is usually posited that we have and only use 4 functions. Socionics on the other hand, argues that we use THESE SAME four functions, but the shadow functions or the functions we don't use, are still explainable and relatable to our types. Socionics allows us to look at these shadow functions, as well as giving them a name and position. This post is a conversion into MBTI terminology, so that we can benefit from the analysis that those in Socionics have done.

    I translated this into MBTI terms so its easier to understand for each type. Furthermore, in socionics, they utilize all the functions in accordance to how you relate to them.

    In MBTI terms translated to Socionics:

    Dominant Function - Leading Function
    Auxiliary Function - Creative Function
    Tertiary Function - Mobilizing Function
    Inferior Function - Suggestive Function
    5th Function - Ignoring Function
    6th Function - Demonstrative function
    7th Function - Vulnerable Function
    8th Function - Role Function

    The last four functions are the same order but opposite, introverted or extroverted. For example, if you are leading Ne then your 5th function in Socionics is Ni. So an ENFPs functions are: Ne Fi Te Si, Ni, Fe, Ti, Se. This is the part people are searching for when wanting to know how we use the other four functions.

    (These sources came from here.)

    In this post, we're covering the ESFJ. But I'll be doing others for the other types. Alternatively you can look at each of the functions and read them yourself from the link, might confuse you a bit though as the terminology is significantly different than MBTI.

    ESFJ Fe, Si, Ne, Ti and then Fi, Se, Ni, Te

    Fe as Leading Function

    The individual is always in tune to the unifying and harmonizing aspects in the constant flow of reality that he perceives surrounding him, and responds to these sensitively, spontaneously and directly. He seeks out and creates activities where people are totally invested and engaged in what they are doing, as well as concepts and ideals that will allow people to feel united in their values and purpose. Something's value for him is directly tied to how much coactive zeal it inspires. He is highly proactive about steering the flow of events into the direction he himself considers ideal. He may, for example, try to lighten a tense atmosphere with jokes and optimistic statements, as happens in case of ESE, or, conversely, get people to be serious and concentrated if they are too carefree during a crisis situation or try to instill a sense of purpose if they are too demotivated as happens in case of EIE. Nevertheless, he believes in full investment, for him there are no half-measures.

    Si as Creative Function

    The individual is naturally good at organizing relaxing activities and recreation and making sure people are calm and enjoying themselves, but displays this behavior and skill when he sees a specific need for it rather than doing it automatically, all the time. The individual does not place emphasis on being calm and balanced all the time, as opposed to those with Si as a leading function.

    Ne as Mobilizing Function

    The individual deeply appreciates people who are able to easily transverse the sea of information and keep themselves informed, who readily form opinions about what they have just seen or read, and who like voicing and discussing hypothetical proposals, ideas, and go on imaginative tangents. Such individuals provide them with a sense of connectedness to what is happening "out there in the world" and allow them to keep up with all the new developments and options. Even if this information cannot be applied practically at the present moment, they appreciate being made aware of what could be because they are often all too aware of what is. Such an individual is even more grateful to people who provide insightful ideas and voice unconventional notions that could enhance what he is working on or going through at the present moment.

    Ti as Suggestive/Dual Seeking Function

    The individual has great admiration for people with well-developed systems of views. He especially likes clear and concise explanations of concepts, rather than a lot of background information about them that is not directly pertinent. He wants his actions to make sense, and thus needs external assurance that the conceptual understanding behind them is correct. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become flustered and unable to act rationally at all.
    And Then

    Fi as Ignoring Function

    This is manifested as a skepticism about, or reluctance to decide on, the status of a deeper personal bond in a relationship between two individuals in the absence of signs in external emotional expression that should reflect that status. For instance, the individual will be inclined to regard as "loveless" or lukewarm the relationship of a couple who do not obviously display their mutual affection and remain rather subdued in their emotions in the presence of others. The individual understands discussions or explorations of one's own inner feelings regarding other individuals but finds them less interesting and relevant than those focusing on one's emotional state in the same situation.

    Se as Demonstrative Function

    The individual is in touch with the physical reality around him and is able to provide accurate evaluations of material properties of objects and physical qualities of people around him. He considers this to be on secondary importance, however, and will dismiss or even ridicule those who draw attention to their physical prowess, material might and external appearance. He himself generally has little interest in displaying such attitudes and will attempt to quench their displays wherever possible.

    Ni as Vulnerable Function

    The individual prefers to focus on immediate tasks, taking things as they come, rather than try to foresee present trends. Usually such individuals have an inclination to tell stories or narrate events on a sequential basis with all the pertinent detail, rather than compounding the information and relaying the main point. He perceives time in an undifferentiated manner: the past, present, and future are all perceived as being in or near the present. When talking about the future, especially one's longer-term plan), the individual treats it as if it were accessible today and often is not aware of all the developments that must happen first. He generally has a poor sense of how long things will take and what the best amount of time to spend on things is. Therefore it is difficult for him to stay on schedule without some planning.

    Te as Role Function

    It is manifested as a need to appear efficient, productive and knowledgeable in their endeavors, as long as that does not conflict with priorities set up by their base function, extroverted feeling. For instance, they may end up defending a decision or action that is not the most efficient but it is the one they see as most desirable in order to achieve or maintain the emotional atmosphere they are aiming at (for instance, not be seen as hostile to a given person or group).

    The difference in introverts is primarily in the ego functions. You type INTP but in socionics INTp, most notably, does not have Ti base function. It is Ni. LII (INTj) has base Ti in socionics.

    So ESFP is close enough to ESE but the descriptions of that vary by writer whether using socionics or MBTI. FF, you will have to read and make the comparisons yourself. Anything you might find comparing the two is just going to be the writers perception of how the functions manifest anyway.

    Here are some links for you to do your own comparison. As you can see, ESFJ is called "The Provider in MBTI. ESE (ESFj) is called "The Enthusiast" in socionics. To me that implies two very different presentations of energy. My ESE sister fits the socionics descriptions of socionics a bit better than the MBTI but I suppose they are similar. I wouldn't say exactly the same.

    ESE < -- click me

    In MBTI both INTJ and INTP would be "challenging opposites" BUT, in socionics, LII (INTj) would be the dual for ESE (ESFp) but ILI (INTP) would be the conflictor.

    In socionics, dual = good and conflictor = bad for long term relations.

    CHALLENGING OPPOSITESPeople of the following types present the most potential for personality clash and conflict with the ESFJ, but also the best opportunities for growth. Because people of these types have fundamentally different values and motivations from the ESFJ's, initially, it may seem impossible to relate. But because they are so different, their strengths are the ESFJ's weaknesses, and if they are able to develop a relationship, they can learn a tremendous amount from each other.

    http://www.truity.com/personality-type/esfj/relationships
    http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ESE-ESFj/
    Extroverted Ethics (Fe, )

    ESEs are highly attuned to the emotional environment around them. They are often focused on whether others around them are having fun, are emotionally relaxed or engaged, or whether everyone around them is getting along or whether the needs of others are met, and they are often inclined to take decisive action to ensure that there exists a positive emotional mood or that others are comfortable and well taken care of. They may be inclined to base their emotional state of mind on the state of others around them, adapting easily to others' expectations and making an effort to avoid playing the role of a grouchy or malcontent; they may have difficulty letting down the expectations of others and can commonly avoid expressing their own dissatisfaction. They may have a strong emotional memory, and may most vividly remember the emotional states and expressions of past situations.

    ESEs may typically express an upbeat, cheerful demeanor and attempt to raise the spirits of others around them. They may expressively and vivaciously impose their emotional state onto others, expecting others to absorb and feel to the nature of the sentiments they display. They often enjoy bringing others out of their shells and getting those around them into the mood of the situation.ESEs generally seek to take action based on the emotional responsibilities and pressures they feel (in contrast to Se dominants, who may often lack a firm basis or long-term vision for their goals) and can be sometimes seen as generally pushy and uncompromising about getting their way. They may also be seen as overbearing, smothering, or overprotective. ESEs are often not shy about influencing the prevailing emotional atmosphere towards a particular end.

    They may commonly involve themselves in political or moral causes, and may primarily serve the function of energizing and motivating others; when passionate and in possession of a cause to forward, they can be very active and engaged (though they may tend to focus their efforts on promoting emotional affect and emotional affect than bringing their reforms to fruition). However, at other times, they may lack a sense of internal guiding principles or conscience to direct them. They may be inclined to accept and integrate the moral norms of those around them into their own perspectives.

    ESEs frequently are highly familially oriented, and often take it upon themselves to ensure that the needs of their loved ones are cared for. They are typically other-directed, and may invest themselves in engaging and caring for the physical needs and well-being of others to the degree that they commonly lack a sense of what they need themselves. As a part of their effort to be accommodating, they tend to be inclined to read into the context of their interaction with others and to try to discern or predict others' intentions and motivations, and to use this information to help meet others' needs or desires; in some cases this can lead to unwanted assistance. They may see the domain of tending to their friends and family as their responsibility, and may become pushy and defensive if others attempt to encroach upon or criticize the functioning of this territory. They may strive for an environment in which their family and close friends are accustomed to routine and contented functioning.

    Though ESEs can occasionally display sedentary and methodical lifestyles, they are more frequently very outgoing and energetic, and freely expressive. They may focus much of their time on socializing with others, and often enjoy directing their emotional energy towards inciting a sense of excitement in others. They are often inclined to remember their own and others' emotions and expressive gestures more keenly than other aspects of a situation.

    Introverted Sensing (Si, )

    ESEs are primarily focused on sensory experiences and a lifestyle that will afford them comfort, harmony, and the opportunity to focus on the finer points in life. However, they are typically more focused on ensuring the positive sensory experiences of others than their own. Their attention to sensory needs, however, is not dominant in their character, but rather directed towards others in their emotional sphere; their kinesthetic expertise is commonly directed towards evaluating whether others are comfortable and whether the needs of others are being met, and much of the energy they devote to aesthetics, cooking, etc. is intended primarily for the benefit of others, or to sustain the emotional mood of a particular occasion. They may fuss extensively over the health and well-being of others, looking for signs of noticeable satisfaction or improvement and becoming impatient and pushy if none are observed, yet simultaneously neglect their own ailments; usually ESEs think of themselves as getting along fine without needing outside assistance, though they often spend a fair amount of energy looking after their own health as a matter of course.

    ESEs may also have a highly individualized sense of artistic expression. In many cases, however, ESEs' artistic expression is used as a reflection of their emotional energy; they may express political, cultural, or life messages through their art, and may use it as a form of expressing their interests in moral causes. This type of artistic expression may commonly extend beyond visual art and may include music, dance, or other media.

    They often seek lifestyles or hobbies that further their own sensory pleasures and that improve immediate environment; many ESEs might have an interest in things like cooking, gardening, music, interior design, etc. They are often attentive to the aesthetics of their surroundings, and can sometimes be quite overbearing and fastidious about their environment, and are sometimes attracted to natural surroundings (though in contrast to SLIs, they may try to integrate their own style into and control their natural surroundings). They may have a strong inner need for organization and neatness in their home environment and physical surroundings. While they may expend great attention on their own appearance, they may also have a relatively limited and comfortable style (especially in the case of male ESEs).

    They may often try to ensure that others are relaxed. However, some ESEs maintain for themselves a relatively active and industrious lifestyle; while they enjoy relaxing, they may feel as though they have too much to do. They may try to organize recreation time, parties, or other social events for those around them, and often put a great deal of emphasis into the enjoyment of leisure time of those around them, and they may have difficulty enjoying themselves or relaxing if those around them appear uncomfortable. They may often engage in active forms of outdoor recreation.

    Super-Ego Block

    Extroverted Logic (Te, )

    ESEs are often capable of focusing their attention on pragmatic matters, of finances, efficiency, and the accumulation of new and interesting information. They may feel a degree of obligation to justify their actions with facts, considerations of the efficiency and effectiveness of their methods. They are unlikely, however, to emphasize these aspects of a conversation over their emotional experiences and attention to others in their emotional vicinity, and may sometimes discount them in situations where such considerations do not coincide with their message or affect they intend to present to others. They are more likely to be motivated to act in accordance with their relationships and emotional states than by constraints of efficiency.

    ESEs can varyingly be not-so-good with money, and lack the pronounced self-sufficiency of delta STs. While not necessarily compulsive spenders, ESEs may have an idea that their personal needs are more important than concerns of thrift. They may be inclined to simply buy whatever items are necessary for their own personal well-being, or whatever they think might please others that they care about, relegating financial considerations to the back of their mind. They may be more typically susceptible than others to advertizing or friendly salespeople. At the same time, they may habitually feel the need to express their own degree of self-control and may feel trapped in a cycle of failing to meet up to their self-imposed standards of caution and rational decision-making. ESEs are often not disinclined to produce expensive items to win the affection and interest of others.

    ESEs may communicate with attention to the impact of their words on others, rather than on the content of their communication. They may not be deeply concerned about committing errors of factual accuracy in the things that they say, and as a result may occasionally make untrue and sometimes preposterous and outlandish claims in the course of regular conversation. They may make assumptions and project emotions, intentions and motivations onto others, and react according to these imputations rather than to others' explicit or demonstrated behaviors. They are seldom concerned with the efficiency of their living environment, and may not understand or feel it very important to understand the mechanisms by which elements of their environment operate.

    Introverted Intuition (Ni, )

    ESEs are often restless, dynamic, and active people, and have little interest in contemplative and reflective lifestyles. They may generally find themselves perennially busy, with so many people to meet and tasks to be done. They may often have difficulty understanding the motivations or mindset of less energetic individuals, or why others would be unmotivated and torpid. They may have have difficulty prioritizing or determining the relative importance of their tasks, and may ignore the long-term consequences of their actions. They may have difficulty planning their schedule effectively, sometimes be caught off guard by certain last minute appointments or tasks whose length they had underestimated.

    ESEs typically focus on the tasks, people, relationships, experiences directly in front of them, seeing little reason to question its purpose, impact, or meaning. They may have underactive minds, and may have difficulty connecting the dots and discerning causal links between different events in their environment. They may have no concept of philosophical reflection, or inner mental worlds as a lifestyle attribute, and may see these aspects as irrelevant to their emotions and experiences. To "sit back and think for a while" is commonly the antithesis of the ESE mindset. Due to their lack of cerebral lifestyles, they may be seen as tedious, unoriginal, and unchanging in their conduct.
    ESFJ in a Nutshell

    ESFJs are conscientious helpers, sensitive to the needs of others and energetically dedicated to their responsibilities. They are highly attuned to their emotional environment and attentive to both the feelings of others and the perception others have of them. ESFJs like a sense of harmony and cooperation around them, and are eager to please and provide.

    ESFJs value loyalty and tradition, and usually make their family and friends their top priority. They are generous with their time, effort, and emotions. They often take on the concerns of others as if they were their own, and will attempt to put their significant organizational talents to use to bring order to other people's lives.





    What Makes the ESFJ Tick

    ESFJs act according to a strict moral code, and look for others to do the same. They often see things in terms of black and white, right and wrong, and they are typically not shy about sharing their evaluations of others' behavior. ESFJs seek harmony and cooperation, and feel this is best accomplished when everyone follows the same set of rules. They have a sense of order in the way people relate to one another, and often take on roles that allow them to help enforce that social order.
    ESFJs feel a sense of personal responsibility for other people's needs, and are usually eager to get involved and help out. They tend to be serious and practical, dutifully putting business before pleasure—especially the business of caring for others. They typically enjoy routine and often keep a regular schedule that allows them to be organized and productive.

    http://www.truity.com/personality-type/esfj

    If you want to understand lead functions, read Jung first, if you haven't already. Ignore all acronyms until you are sure you know lead functions.
    Last edited by Aylen; 07-04-2016 at 05:41 PM. Reason: typo

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    If you have arrived at your typing conclusions by dichotomous testing only, the types should be the same.

    Your views of the types are likely to be distorted if your conclusions have been supplemented by reading descriptions, especially those in MBTI literature.

    Socionics presents an effective model for structuring Jung's cognitive functions, but keep in mind that definitions of the functions in Socionics have been distorted from Jung's original view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    If you have arrived at your typing conclusions by dichotomous testing only, the types should be the same.

    Your views of the types are likely to be distorted if your conclusions have been supplemented by reading descriptions, especially those in MBTI literature.
    I found the following link quite helpful for flushing out my subtype: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t...-INTp/subtypes

    I'd bet money that even after VI (conducted by someone competent) I'd still classify as an INTp / ILI-Ni. The ESFJ video that Aylen posted described my partner to a tee. It couldn't be more dead-on.


    FF
    Last edited by FeloniousFunk; 07-03-2016 at 11:37 PM.
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Aylen:

    Thanks for the wealth of info to absorb. The ESFJ video at the bottom of your post couldn't BE a more accurate description of my partner. The ESFj / ESE-Si subtype pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    Cheers,


    FF
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Its really got to do with the emphasis on political correctness in MBTI
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    Also I notice, that if FeloniousFunk would had Te type as he baseless dreams himself, he'd already knew where to get this info and did not bother the forum by such primitive questions.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousFunk View Post
    Hey folks,

    I want to better understand the differences between an ESFJ (MBTI) and an ESFj (Socionics.) Does anyone (ignore this post, Sol) have any suggestions for links to comprehensive and direct comparisons between the two?

    Much appreciated,


    FF

    Big incompatible difference those who jump to the Jung bollocks are delusional misunderstanding either theories.

    MBTI ESFJ
    Focuses on trying to get along with others and being overall good to those surrounding them
    They have an excessive focus on tradition and culture
    // in socionics these are ISFJ ESI

    Socionics ESFJ
    Emotionally expressive, domineering others with their emotional vortex, these are boisterous and very expressive
    Secondly they prioritise pleasure, and fun, enjoyable experiences above everything
    //In the MBTI these are ESFPs SeFi

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    Chokon Macaque FeloniousFunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Big incompatible difference those who jump to the Jung bollocks are delusional misunderstanding either theories.
    So you're saying it's inconceivable that an ISTP (MBTI) could also be an ISTp-ILI ?


    FF
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Also I notice, that if FeloniousFunk would had Te type as he baseless dreams himself, he'd already knew where to get this info and did not bother the forum by such primitive questions.
    Sol,

    I only asked because I knew it would give you an aneurysm. Whaddaya know; I was correct.

    FF
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    They should be the same type however they test differently
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 07-04-2016 at 10:23 PM.

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    MBTI e/i has a "collective/external vs personal" vibe (eg Fe in MBTI emphasizes collective/group harmony, Fi in MBTI emphasizes deepest personal values), and e/i in socionics is characterized more via objects/relations.
    While there is an overlap between these ways of viewing things (e.g. if one focused on objects ~ external and relations ~ my subjective relation to them), one can also focus on the differences between them.

    In my experience, those who want a more unified theory just focus on the overlap and those who don't emphasize the differences. They are philosophically motivated from similar roots, but in what direction one takes them is up to theoretical taste.
    John Beebe and CG Jung are both Jungians, overall, but they have different models and type CG Jung differently in them. It is possible to argue the differences are based on an inferior conceptualization scheme, but it is not possible to argue rationally that there don't exist substantial differences in how a myriad of theorists conceptualize what ultimately stems from a common root, despite that common-ness.

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    well the dichotomies between ESFJ and ESFj are the same, so you should basically meet the same person based on socionics dichotomies and mbti dichotomies. However on some mbti websites they are a bit fuzzy in their descriptions which makes some people believe they are talking about a whole different or unknown type. It's just the site.

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    To me, they are nothing alike: Alyssa Milano or Sandra Bullock for socionics Fe, vs. Reese Witherspoon or Mother Theresa for MBTI Fe. Socionics Fe I value, MBTI Fe I feel I supervise...
    LII

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