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Thread: Enneagram 4 Delta EII or IEE

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    Default Enneagram 4 Delta EII or IEE

    Are there any enneagram 4 delta? ENFP or INFJ?

    4 Individualist Melancholy(Fantasizing) Origin Having no identity or significance To be uniquely themselves To overuse imagination in search of self Envy Equanimity(Emotional Balance) 2 1
    These traits seem very Beta in arrogance and self absorption, whilst EII can be idealistic they do not seem to be this self absorbed. IEE on the other hand have an upbeat energy in what ever they may focus on.

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    Hum I don't know, honestly. I'm sorry that I can't be of much help

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    Most 4s are EII or ESI, followed by IEI and the occasional IEE.

    Essentially, Type 4 is closely linked to Fi, as well as some Intuitive inclination.

    ESIs are the only Sensors that can be 4 because they are 4D Fi and also have a deeper connection with their Ni HA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Most 4s are EII or ESI, followed by IEI and the occasional IEE.

    Essentially, Type 4 is closely linked to Fi, as well as some Intuitive inclination.

    ESIs are the only Sensors that can be 4 because they are 4D Fi and also have a deeper connection with their Ni HA.
    Most ESIs are e6, from my experience. EIIs e1 or 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Most ESIs are e6, from my experience. EIIs e1 or 2.
    Most people are E6.

    Some EIIs mistype themselves as E1, and less are being mistyped as such. I see this tied to their Fi valuing and higher ideals, but also their Te seeking. I have known an EII-Ne who mistyped as E1, but later realized (with help) that she was actually an SP 4w5! The SP 4 is the "counter type" of 4, in that they are less consciously aware of their E4 tendencies and suppress any pain and suffering they are feeling, "just taking it", to the point people may not see they are E4! Also, E4's growth point is E1, so naturally many E4s prefer self-typing themselves as E1 (unconsciously). I have seen a similar effect with E9s, who usually mistype themselves as E3 at first or later on as they "grow". (3 is the 9's integration point.)

    I know many Socionics people will disagree with me here, but I believe Type 1 is linked with Extroverted Judging – exacting certain ideals unto the outside environment, forming it. Unless an EII has a strong Social instinct, and perhaps has moved to E1 as their growth point, they keep their ideals mostly to themselves, or share them with loved ones, or deal with them in the written form. Their idealism and standards are self-directed and formed by the self, whereas the standards of the Type 1 both derived from the outside, and they are watchful to uphold objective standards in their environments, holding both themselves and this environment to a certain standard. Extroverted vs Introverted Judging. Again, when a Type 4 ExI has moved to their E1 and/or has a strong E1 in their tritype, they may adopt this kind of behaviour, but it is not the core of their being. I can see how easy it is to "confuse" Fi lead with E1 – because most E1 are in fact Fi valuing, and Fi in general has ideas of right and wrong and so forth. Anyhow, I understand when people assume Fi lead can be E1, I simply personally don't believe so, based on how I understand the Type and my experiences with Fi leading types.

    EIIs who mistype as E2 are usually actually E9. E9 is not only prone to mistyping as E3, but also E2, especially when they are an Ethical type.

    Generally, E6s and E9s are the most prone to mistyping themselves when studying the Enneagram (and being mistyped by others).
    E6s doubt others and themselves too much, hence oscillating between many types too much, while E9s can relate to everyone and have a foggy sense of self.
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    SEIs also have 4D Fi. Exhibit A: @lemontree
    Last edited by GuavaDrunk; 07-02-2016 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Seems polite to let people know you mention them.
    Reason is a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Most ESIs are e6, from my experience. EIIs e1 or 2.
    Yup, most 4's are iei's (e4 is imaginative, fantasy removed from real world =NiFe) by far, esi's 6's and eii's 1/9/2 line.

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    I might be EII. And imo almost any sociotype can be any enneatype. BUT most common for 4 is all ethical introverts.

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    E4 is best correlated with -leading (it is a very inward, mystical, and irrational enneagram type).

    I'd expect logical, rational, extrovert types to identify better with other enneagram types. I think when attempting to find correlations with the enneagram and Socionics types, it seems that some Socionics types are not at all well represented in the enneagram system and yet a single enneagram type can represent a few Socionics types somewhat.

    My view (this is based on analysis rather than any actual pretense of being an expert) of EII representation in the enneagram is that there is not an enenagram type that adequately represents both -leading and -creative (or alternatively, for example, the IJ temperament + "Feeling" and "Intuition"). 7w6 is probably a good match for IEEs though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Yup, most 4's are iei's (e4 is imaginative, fantasy removed from real world =NiFe) by far, esi's 6's and eii's 1/9/2 line.
    And that is why all the Type 4s in Socionics forums get mistyped as IEI, automatically. Yay.
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    Oh no, you're a special snowflake iei e4, excuse moi. You typing half the population into esi e4 is highly unlikely but ok.

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    Omg, people who think they are so fucking special and fragile are so annoying. Live a life, actually meet some people and stop being so precious and living only in fantasy. Nobody gives a shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    And that is why all the Type 4s in Socionics forums get mistyped as IEI, automatically. Yay.
    Hello my mistyped friend...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Hello my mistyped friend...
    It is not like that many people typed me as IEI (before I typed myself).
    Well, in fact, I entered this forum having typed myself already. Anyway...
    Ironically, those people where most believe they are IEI in Socionics forums are actually more often than not mistyped.
    Most people just cannot type that well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    .
    Ironically, those people where most believe they are IEI in Socionics forums are actually more often than not mistyped.
    Most people just cannot type that well.
    Its not like IEI is a rare type or anything so why assume mst of them are mistyped?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msnobody View Post
    Its not like IEI is a rare type or anything so why assume mst of them are mistyped?
    Because most people are mistyped?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Because most people are mistyped?


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Because most people are mistyped?
    Well it seemed like she specifically targeted IEIs

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Oh no, you're a special snowflake iei e4, excuse moi. You typing half the population into esi e4 is highly unlikely but ok.
    Deja vu! I remember a similar conversation with Lucy/IBTL. Good times...




    The only ESI I know self type 6 or are obvious 6s even if they don't know about enneagram. I have not typed any a core 4 but I have used it in tritype.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Omg, people who think they are so fucking special and fragile are so annoying. Live a life, actually meet some people and stop being so precious and living only in fantasy. Nobody gives a shit.
    Maybe if they realised that e4 are inherently and profoundly broken... those never satisfied erring individuals...it would completely change the story...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Maybe if they realised that e4 are inherently and profoundly broken... those never satisfied erring individuals...it would completely change the story...
    Damn...that sounds pretty harsh when put that way.

    The first time it was suggested I was a 4 > 9. I was pretty offended. First because it seemed 4s were looked down on in that particular group. The 9s really presented that I was a 4 in a positive way to me though and I slowly accepted I was not the all, seemingly, spiritual and patient 9 with the power to remain serene, no matter what life threw at them, by nature or nurture.

    I loved all my emotional states even the dark ones. I am sure they found me quite emo and more combative in comparison to themselves. It was the type to be in that group and only a few got the privilege of being a 9... People are all the same wherever I go. I know each person's doppelganger on various forums. Pretty sure some of those 9s were EII.

    My retyping began the day I said I thought I was a 9. Started quite a commotion in their peaceful community. The 4s gravitated toward me the first week I was there. The 9s avoided me, for the most part, unless they were trying to gently steer me away from their type. I found out I had more in common with the 4s anyway so I didn't mind too much once I accepted my place of not reaching the highest possible level of 9 wholeness and peace, in that group. That ok, I didn't want to be like them anyway.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Damn...that sounds pretty harsh when put that way.

    The first time it was suggested I was a 4 > 9. I was pretty offended. First because it seemed 4s were looked down on in that particular group. The 9s really presented that I was a 4 in a positive way to me though and I slowly accepted I was not the all, seemingly, spiritual and patient 9 with the power to remain serene, no matter what life threw at them, by nature or nurture.

    I loved all my emotional states even the dark ones. I am sure they found me quite emo and more combative in comparison to themselves. It was the type to be in that group and only a few got the privilege of being a 9... People are all the same wherever I go. I know each person's doppelganger on various forums. Pretty sure some of those 9s were EII.

    My retyping began the day I said I thought I was a 9. Started quite a commotion in their peaceful community. The 4s gravitated toward me the first week I was there. The 9s avoided me, for the most part, unless they were trying to gently steer me away from their type. I found out I had more in common with the 4s anyway so I didn't mind too much once I accepted my place of not reaching the highest possible level of 9 wholeness and peace, in that group. That ok, I didn't want to be like them anyway.
    <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Oh no, you're a special snowflake iei e4, excuse moi. You typing half the population into esi e4 is highly unlikely but ok.
    Why the assumption/ad hominem about SisOfNight? Any particular reason? Since I don't see any proof/reason for it in this thread itself. All I see is various theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Hum I don't know, honestly. I'm sorry that I can't be of much help
    You are clearly INFJ within the MBTI, I should have expected it

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Most 4s are EII or ESI, followed by IEI and the occasional IEE.

    Essentially, Type 4 is closely linked to Fi, as well as some Intuitive inclination.

    ESIs are the only Sensors that can be 4 because they are 4D Fi and also have a deeper connection with their Ni HA.
    Are you using the MBTI INFP is socionics EII conversion? It sounds like that and I'm not inclined to agree, but that's just a difference of socionics

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    To respond to the OP question, I have an IEE friend who is familiar with socionics and enneagram and self types (I type her the same) as IEE 4w3 7w8 9w8 so/sx. So yes it exists, just not very common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Maybe if they realised that e4 are inherently and profoundly broken... those never satisfied erring individuals...it would completely change the story...
    This was unecesarilly harsh of me. E4's can be great in lots of ways. I'm just allergic to those iei's that are pathologically attached to their typing and want to throw out anybody who isnt exactly like them - which is, you know, everybody. Like those mbti infp infj fights -like are these people for real? Are they 12 or just that immature?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Why the assumption/ad hominem about SisOfNight? Any particular reason? Since I don't see any proof/reason for it in this thread itself. All I see is various theories.
    Her theories and socionics approach rub me the wrong way. If she didnt quote me with the "yay" as if whoever mistypes some iei's is personally offending her royal person and is causing her great suffer, I wouldnt have said anything. I'm sure she's ok otherwise, just the way she approaches socionics and her absolute statements about human relations trigger me because they are so naive and generalized. And she's always 100% sure that her typings are correct, not once have I seen her change her mind or even consider some other pov. So honestly, i see her as pretty arrogant (as a know-it-all, not otherwise) but hiding it with her cutesy non-confrontational persona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    This was unecesarilly harsh of me. E4's can be great in lots of ways. I'm just allergic to those iei's that are pathologically attached to their typing and want to throw out anybody who isnt exactly like them - which is, you know, everybody. Like those mbti infp infj fights -like are these people for real? Are they 12 or just that immature?
    Just wanted to counter-balance, because a lot romanticise it all a lot... when in reality is all about suffering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Most 4s are EII or ESI, followed by IEI and the occasional IEE.

    Essentially, Type 4 is closely linked to Fi, as well as some Intuitive inclination.

    ESIs are the only Sensors that can be 4 because they are 4D Fi and also have a deeper connection with their Ni HA.
    I'm not an expert in Enneagram, but a friend who I think is ESI types herself as E4. FWIW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    7w6 is probably a good match for IEEs though.
    My IEE sister has typed as a 7.



    Yay, anecdotes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    The first time it was suggested I was a 4 > 9. I was pretty offended. First because it seemed 4s were looked down on in that particular group. The 9s really presented that I was a 4 in a positive way to me though and I slowly accepted I was not the all, seemingly, spiritual and patient 9 with the power to remain serene, no matter what life threw at them, by nature or nurture.
    ah, interesting. i'm not really sure about e4 being my core type, and i often think that e9 is a strong possibility too. but even when i'm just reading the descriptions of e9 i just can't help but be repulsed by them (which is strange.). i don't see e9 traits as appealing, even though half the time i have these tendencies - probably the only type description i really like is e5 - but i always knew that's more some sort of 'escape' than my main motivation.



    concerning the topic:

    i know plenty of e4 EIIs and IEEs.
    e4 seems common for delta and beta NFs, as well as ESI and SEI and can show up in the tritype of many other types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I know many Socionics people will disagree with me here, but I believe Type 1 is linked with Extroverted Judging – exacting certain ideals unto the outside environment, forming it.
    You seem to mix MBTI with Socionics way too freely. Do you think LSI = ISTP as well?...


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Yup, most 4's are iei's (e4 is imaginative, fantasy removed from real world =NiFe) by far, esi's 6's and eii's 1/9/2 line.
    I know EII E4s too. Imaginative/fantasizing fits EII too just fine.

    I think the E4's core issues of envy/authenticity/etc aren't really correlated to Ni/Fe specifically.


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Her theories and socionics approach rub me the wrong way. If she didnt quote me with the "yay" as if whoever mistypes some iei's is personally offending her royal person and is causing her great suffer, I wouldnt have said anything. I'm sure she's ok otherwise, just the way she approaches socionics and her absolute statements about human relations trigger me because they are so naive and generalized. And she's always 100% sure that her typings are correct, not once have I seen her change her mind or even consider some other pov. So honestly, i see her as pretty arrogant (as a know-it-all, not otherwise) but hiding it with her cutesy non-confrontational persona.
    I see. Tbh, I wouldn't try to read too much into a single "yay". Maybe that was her intention behind, maybe not.

    I would see this as, disagreement is normal, and doesn't have to be made personal unless ill intention is verified first. But just being irritated by disagreement doesn't really warrant assuming such intentions.

    My personal opinion - I see both of you as cool people just trying to theorize about how people work, though I don't know either of you too well.

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    @Starfall what is your sister's E type ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    @Starfall what is your sister's E type ?
    Probably enneagram 9 sp/so

    I'm IEI enneagram 4. A big difference between my sister and I is that she dislikes drama & conflict and will avoid it whenever possible, while I'm more comfortable with conflict and drama (not that I go looking for it, but I don't necessarily hide from confrontation when something is bothering me).
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    ah, interesting. i'm not really sure about e4 being my core type, and i often think that e9 is a strong possibility too. but even when i'm just reading the descriptions of e9 i just can't help but be repulsed by them (which is strange.). i don't see e9 traits as appealing, even though half the time i have these tendencies - probably the only type description i really like is e5 - but i always knew that's more some sort of 'escape' than my main motivation.
    Growing up I always felt compared to my EII 9 sister. "Why aren't you more like...?" It made me very jealous and sometimes mean to her. At some point I decided she was just a better person than me. I kind of still had that attitude going into that group. I was pretty new to enneagram then and my spirituality was very important to me. For some reason 9 seemed to be the ultimate enlightened being in that group. That was what I wanted to be. I realized it wasn't true. They were just more docile (peaceful) on the exterior.

    I no longer compare my ideal image to that of my sister and she no longer compares herself to me. She told me she had wished she could have been like me during those years. She saw me as "free" and herself "trapped". We have a great relationship and admire/respect each other very much. <3

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  36. #36
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Growing up I always felt compared to my EII 9 sister. "Why aren't you more like...?" It made me very jealous and sometimes mean to her. At some point I decided she was just a better person than me. I kind of still had that attitude going into that group. I was pretty new to enneagram then and my spirituality was very important to me. For some reason 9 seemed to be the ultimate enlightened being in that group. That was what I wanted to be. I realized it wasn't true. They were just more docile (peaceful) on the exterior.

    I no longer compare my ideal image to that of my sister and she no longer compares herself to me. She told me she had wished she could have been like me during those years. She saw me as "free" and herself "trapped". We have a great relationship and admire/respect each other very much. <3
    I kind of relate to this growing up. I was the oldest, but my EII sister has always been a lot more grown up and mature than me. I also believe she's a better person than me, both ethically and emotionally.

    I was also pretty mean to her while growing up, I'm not sure why, though... I probably always felt a rivalry that was never actually there. She's however always treated me with respect, even when we were kids. She's never heald the way I treated her as a teen/kid against me. She has even admitted that she's always looked up to me and seen me as a strong person, which is pretty cool because I've never actually viewed myself in that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Growing up I always felt compared to my EII 9 sister. "Why aren't you more like...?" It made me very jealous and sometimes mean to her. At some point I decided she was just a better person than me. I kind of still had that attitude going into that group. I was pretty new to enneagram then and my spirituality was very important to me. For some reason 9 seemed to be the ultimate enlightened being in that group. That was what I wanted to be. I realized it wasn't true. They were just more docile (peaceful) on the exterior.

    I no longer compare my ideal image to that of my sister and she no longer compares herself to me. She told me she had wished she could have been like me during those years. She saw me as "free" and herself "trapped". We have a great relationship and admire/respect each other very much. <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I kind of relate to this growing up. I was the oldest, but my EII sister has always been a lot more grown up and mature than me. I also believe she's a better person than me, both ethically and emotionally.

    I was also pretty mean to her while growing up, I'm not sure why, though... I probably always felt a rivalry that was never actually there. She's however always treated me with respect, even when we were kids. She's never heald the way I treated her as a teen/kid against me. She has even admitted that she's always looked up to me and seen me as a strong person, which is pretty cool because I've never actually viewed myself in that way.



    I get treated bad all the time too especially on the forum but I look past it and try love people hoping one day things will change and that's the patience love and endurance of EII. And see for you guys things did change @Starfall

  38. #38
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    It's weird how most of you think EII is e1, 2, etc., but in MBTI, INFP is connected with 4 most often. But, at least 9 is a common ground between both. I'm not EII, but my 4 fix is very strong, so I don't see why EII can't have 4 core either since they're even more ungrounded and in their feelings than me.

    My sister is LSE 8w7 and my parents have always thought of me as nicer, and I think that's strained our relationship a little, even if I know we silently care about each other a lot. On the flipside, by both her and my parents I'M seen as way more reckless and weird, and that's made me feel forever misunderstood by all of them. And when you look at the patterns in families like this, it's easy to see why someone developed the tritype they did. And because parenting styles don't really change between kids, I think even if two kids have pretty different personalities there's at least something shared between them because of that. Like, me and my sister both have 8 fixes because the way we were raised made us competitive and hotheaded, seeing the world as hostile.

    So, what I'm saying to you that are IEI and have an EII sibling or vice versa even if you both aren't 4 core I think it's likely you both share a 4 fix, or at least one fix. The reason I say 4 is because of the sensitive, introverted nature of both types. For me and my sister - SEE and LSE are both aggressive types so it makes sense we share 8, though, as a kid and even now I was the more openly sensitive of the both of us while my sister never lets her guard down (because 8 is not my core, and because she is lower Fi and I'm Fi ego).
    Last edited by Jailbait; 07-08-2016 at 03:39 AM.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    It's weird how most of you think EII is e1, 2, etc., but in MBTI, INFP is connected with 4 most often.
    It's because most people dealing with typology just in their free time don't really have the chance to build their patterns from a big and representative sample of people so they'll overfocus on certain patterns and not notice others or will explain them away or conflate them with other patterns superficially. So in this case, someone has a stereotype of enneagram Superego version of EII but not noticing the E4 EIIs while someone else has an image of E4 EIIs but not of the Superego version of EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Are there any enneagram 4 delta? ENFP or INFJ?

    4 Individualist Melancholy(Fantasizing) Origin Having no identity or significance To be uniquely themselves To overuse imagination in search of self Envy Equanimity(Emotional Balance) 2 1
    These traits seem very Beta in arrogance and self absorption, whilst EII can be idealistic they do not seem to be this self absorbed. IEE on the other hand have an upbeat energy in what ever they may focus on.
    Not seeing much disagreement with this Jung's excerpt on 'ego-subverted' Fi:

    But, when it [the introverted feeling, Fi] becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration just as the subjectified consciousness of the introverted thinker, striving after an abstraction of abstractions, only attains a supreme intensity of a thought-process in itself quite empty, so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself.

    Self-absorption is NTR. Type does not dictate how much an individual is centered on their own ego.

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