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Thread: Parent--Child Orientation Interaction Forming Enneagram?

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    Lightbulb Parent--Child Orientation Interaction Forming Enneagram?

    "I've recently come across a really interesting article that promotes a different hypothesis of how Enneagram types form during childhood and I thought I should present it briefly on the blog.

    It's commonly accepted that the Enneagram type has both a genetic component and an environmental component and it's their interaction that decides the final typology. This theory states that there are three major innate orientations of the personality and that we are all born with one of them prevalent over the other two. Furthermore, it suggests that each of the nine Enneagram types is a consequence of the way in which the child's preferred inborn orientation (the hereditary component) interacts with the one that their parent - or main caretaker - has towards them in the forming years (the environmental component)." Taken from this blogpost http://pstypes.blogspot.com/2010/01/...types-law.html


    Three Basic Orientations


    The three orientations are an expression of the Law of Three, on which the entire Enneagram concept is based. This law states that there are three kinds of forces that act in the human nature - the Active force, the Responsive force and the Neutral force and that each person is born with a natural preference for one of them. These three forces are similar to the Hornevian Groups (Assertive, Compliant and Withdrawn respectively), but they are used here in a different context, to describe inborn traits and parental styles rather than established personality. Here are the associated traits for each basic orientation:


    Active: demanding, assertive, bossy, outspoken, intimidating, egocentric, expressive, willful.

    Responsive: supportive, responsive, engaging, affectionate, friendly, sympathetic, cooperative.

    Neutral: avoidant, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, absent, reserved, ignoring, neglectful.


    Apparently, each child comes into the world with one of these predefined attitudes toward their environment and each parent will address their children with a certain parenting style, which can be, but isn't necessarily determined by their Enneagram type. Any Enneagram type can use any of the three orientations to attend to their children. For example - an Enneatype 5 can be a Responsive parent, an Enneatype 8 might use a Neutral approach with their offspring, while an Enneatype 1 may lean towards an Active style. What determines the environmental component of a child's future type is not necessarily the main caretaker's type, but rather their particular approach to relating to the child.




    Nine Interaction Scenarios: Child vs. Parent



    Active child vs. Active parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 8.

    The child and parent experience open conflicts on a regular basis. They both have different agendas and oppose each other, thus giving rise to power struggles and explosive arguments. The Active parent is impatient and intolerant of the child's rebellious nature and tries to impose his will in an authoritarian fashion. The Active child, on the other hand, becomes aggressive, argumentative and persistent in getting his own way. The relationship becomes a sort of battlefield, which is how the child will later perceive the world around him (type 8).

    Such a childhood scenario encourages the child to develop a keen eye for spotting other people's weaknesses and a thirst for imposing their will in an overly aggressive fashion. They learn to be assertive, strong and deny their fears and feelings of intimidation. These are the traits they needed to have in order to stand up to their domineering parents and still keep their own Active inborn approach.


    Active child vs. Responsive parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 7

    The demands and concerns of the Active child are usually received with benevolence and a supportive, encouraging attitude. This creates a tolerant environment in which the child can express himself openly and receive attention without much effort from his part. The Active child becomes self-confident, carefree and expects his interactions to be positive and favorable to his needs. The Responsive parent is sympathetic and loving, thus stimulating the child's playful, self-expressive side and giving him a good deal of personal freedom.

    This childhood scenario promotes a cheerful, optimistic type who knows how to charm and manipulate others into easily getting his way. Entertaining and expressive, such a child may later expect instant gratification for all his needs and desires and avoid investing time and effort into long-term goals.


    Active child vs. Neutral parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 4

    In this relationship, the child usually tries to grab the attention of an indifferent or absent parent, by expressing himself with increasing intensity, until a response is achieved. The Active child may act in a dramatic, exaggerated manner, attempting to get his message across to the unconcerned caretaker. The Neutral caretaker will typically ignore the child's emotional needs, making the youngster feel frustrated, misunderstood and possibly abandoned. Sometimes the child turns these negative feelings inwardly, believing that they are unlovable and not special enough to deserve attention.

    This scenario teaches the Active children that they are different than other children that seem to be getting the support they lack. They want to make themselves heard so they amplify their feelings, resorting to dramatic expressions of their emotions. These children may later become overly sensitive, artistic and theatrical, but also melancholic, self-loathing and depressive.


    Responsive child vs. Active parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 1

    This interaction is generally centered around the parent's agenda, to which the child will subscribe in order to receive the desired approval. The Active parent will be demanding, dominating and will criticize any perceived "bad" behavior. The Responsive child, on the other hand, is unusually sensitive to criticism so he will try to adjust and adhere to the parent's values and perspectives, by being obedient, well-behaved and an altogether "good kid". This attitude will help him build the desired rapport with the fastidious main caretaker.

    With time, the child will learn to put aside his real needs and wishes in order to do the right thing, to be correct and morally ethical. These types will prefer to have a clear set of standards and rules to adhere to and will only feel worthy and lovable when they live a righteous life, in accordance with their upstanding principles. Their parents taught them that acceptance comes only through obedience and discipline.


    Responsive child vs. Responsive parent

    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 6

    This child will usually establish a very close relationship with his caretaker and will tend to become dependent on the nurturing, affectionate figure that offers him support and understanding. A strong desire for harmonious relationships is created and the Responsive child will reject and feel threatened by conflicts and lack of stability. Such types will seek playmates and groups that share their values and interests and will take an 'us against the world' stance, typically towards unfamiliar people and circumstances.

    These Responsive children will prefer to play by the rules in order to keep themselves safe from any disharmony that will endanger their comforting, supportive relationships. They will be playful, endearing and loyal to their chosen groups and intimates, while at the same time remaining alert and vigilant to avoid any conflicts and hidden threats. Suspicion of other people's motives can arise as a protection from abandonment and rejection - they are in fact very afraid of losing their safe, nurturing grounds.


    Responsive child vs. Neutral parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 2

    In this case, the Responsive child will act in a pleasing, appealing matter but will most likely encounter an indifferent attitude on the part of the Neutral parent. Confronted with this apathy and lack of interest, the child can only resort to becoming even more pleasing and irresistible to the parent, until he manages to break through the shell of indifference and obtain the desired rapport. Such types will be helpful, empathetic, lovable and attractive and will have a knack for getting on the same wavelength with their parents - they know when and how to approach them in order to obtain their attention.

    Growing up, the Responsive children will learn to intuitively sense and assess other people's moods and will know exactly how to fulfill their needs in order to be appreciated and loved by them. They have a wide repertoire of seductive behaviors and know exactly which approach to use in order to successfully engage others into a close relationship.


    Neutral child vs. Active parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 9

    The Neutral child is often overwhelmed and frightened by the controlling, domineering Active parent. Lacking self-assertion skills, he prefers to withdraw and stay out of the way, minimizing his own needs and avoiding the parent as much as possible. On the few occasions the child reaches out to the caretaker, he ends up feeling rejected and bullied around for no apparent reason, which causes him to withdraw again. The loneliness, however, also feels like rejection and soon enough the youngster will be ambivalent towards both being alone and being with others.

    Most of the time, a compromise will be made. This type will seek out company but will not invest themselves in it, preferring to keep in the background and go with the flow, partly removed from their actual situation. When alone, they will avoid introspection, which will bring about old feelings of depression and rejection, instead they'd rather numb themselves out with food, TV or other unimportant routines to avoid emotional pain.


    Neutral child vs. Responsive parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 5

    In this relationship, the Responsive parent is inclined to give a lot of unrequested attention to the Neutral child, who perceives his parent's supportive and affectionate attitude as a form of smothering. The youngster will tend to withdraw from his environment, preferring solitary activities and contemplation, but as opposed to the previous scenario (of type 9), loneliness will not be accompanied by a feeling of rejection. At the contrary, being alone is a matter of choice and it gives a feeling of security and well-being, knowing that there is always someone to communicate with when they decide to seek out company.

    Such children are genuine loners, who prefer and enjoy their solitude. They are introspective, insightful and love learning and discovering things on their own, usually rejecting any help or intervention from the outside. They are afraid of being intruded upon because their parents used to make a fuss over them and suffocate them with attention and demands for closeness.


    Neutral child vs. Neutral parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 3

    This Neutral child's solitude is encouraged by his parent's own withdrawal and indifference, which doesn’t necessarily make the Neutral child feel openly rejected, but rather intrigues and challenges him. Serious, focused and rather unemotional, this youngster will most likely try to fulfill his occasional need for attention by impressing his parents with outstanding accomplishments and high aspirations, which make him feel worthy and valuable in their eyes.

    Later in life, these children become motivated achievers who put great emphasis on results, performance, efficiency and a successful image that will make others appreciate and admire them. Deep inside they dislike being ignored because it makes them doubt their own value, therefore they tend to hide their weaknesses and flaws and project a desirable, attractive, "I-have-it-all" persona.
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    "From their lives, and not least from their greatest fault--their inability to communicate--we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in verbal statements, the boundless overestimation of instruction by means of words and methods."--C.G. Jung on the introverted irrational types

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    The above theory is probably floating around somewhere. If so, consider this a bump.

    I find this theory interesting (obviously), yet I wonder about which parent effects the results or if it's a combination of both. My mother was a stay-at-home mom until I was 3; however, she was very active and engaging. Possibly I was effected by my father since he worked and is an E5. Still, both parents were very hands on especially with me being the first born. I also wonder how many years are involved in this shaping. After a certain age, my mother became jealous of me, which is odd to recognize as a 3/4 yr old. I did spend more time with my father than mother, eventually. She became a workaholic and I was able to go to work with my dad when a babysitter wasn't available. I'm having a therapy session with myself right now lol. I suppose I can see how all these experiences formed my 4. I wonder if I'm forcing a fit too.

    I'm curious about others' ideas about this theory.
    IEI-Ni, DCNH-H, 4w5-9w1-5w4, sx/sp, Aquarius sun, Leo rising
    ...
    "From their lives, and not least from their greatest fault--their inability to communicate--we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in verbal statements, the boundless overestimation of instruction by means of words and methods."--C.G. Jung on the introverted irrational types

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    Yeah, there are sources, who describe E1 as a type, who has internalized a super ego voice (coming from outside), too much. There are also certain thoughts about, how some things are 'inborn', like certain things traveling from generation to generation and accounting for certain dynamics?

    Last edited by Nymeria; 06-22-2016 at 08:03 AM.

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    Interesting. But how do you calculate this if one parent is active and the other is neutral for example ?
    Sylvia Plath — 'I desire the things which will destroy me in the end.'
    IEI 4w5 458 tritype likely sp/sx

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    As a child I cycled through all three orientations, frequently, so I am not sure how I fit in this theory. Bossy, outspoken, expressive, willful, engaging, affectionate, friendly, sympathetic, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, ignoring, are words that consistently come up, a lot, when people describe me as a child. Especially "willful". I don't think I was very intimidating and that just reminds me of a bully.

    I had 4 caregivers as a young child. The two I spent the most time with were most likely "active" and "neutral" types. The other two were "neutral" and "responsive". I had a really sweet "responsive" babysitter, who was a close family friend, for a couple of years. I am not sure how this would work for me. I was sort of raised by an extended family until I was 9 or 10. By age 12 I refused to have any kind of sitter. My mom was kind of neutral in her parenting style so I pushed her boundaries to see if she even cared. I know she did but sometimes I was unsure. I have no doubt she cared now. She also has some active and responsive traits, fewer responsive.


    Active: demanding, assertive, bossy, outspoken, intimidating, egocentric, expressive, willful.

    Responsive: supportive, responsive, engaging, affectionate, friendly, sympathetic, cooperative.

    Neutral: avoidant, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, absent, reserved, ignoring, neglectful.


    It might be a stretch to say it could work for my tritype and instincts but maybe.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     





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    this is fascinating.

    i was both of these as a child:
    Active: demanding, assertive, bossy, outspoken, intimidating, egocentric, expressive, willful. (although i don't think i was intimidating; my sister sees me as whiny > intimidating ... but i fear being intimidating as it would mean i'm secretly evil)
    Neutral: avoidant, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, absent, reserved, ignoring, neglectful.

    if there was only one -- i would say the active one was my nature as a child, but it got slowly broken down over time which is why it's not as apparent now. my sister knows me primarily as the "active" description and thinks the other is something i've developed that doesn't belong. i also feel the huge contradiction of this in my personality and it's one of the things i don't know how to resolve. i am ashamed of many of the "active" qualities and hate myself for them. many are suppressed. but they're always spilling out here and there and i have a lot of internal narcissism (that i also can't stand).

    Active child vs. Neutral parent This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 4

    In this relationship, the child usually tries to grab the attention of an indifferent or absent parent, by expressing himself with increasing intensity, until a response is achieved. The Active child may act in a dramatic, exaggerated manner, attempting to get his message across to the unconcerned caretaker. The Neutral caretaker will typically ignore the child's emotional needs, making the youngster feel frustrated, misunderstood and possibly abandoned. Sometimes the child turns these negative feelings inwardly, believing that they are unlovable and not special enough to deserve attention.

    This scenario teaches the Active children that they are different than other children that seem to be getting the support they lack. They want to make themselves heard so they amplify their feelings, resorting to dramatic expressions of their emotions. These children may later become overly sensitive, artistic and theatrical, but also melancholic, self-loathing and depressive.
    ^applies to my dad and i when he wasn't shouting and being aggressive. his dr. jekyll side was like the neutral description. his mr. hyde side was like the active one. (this one was the main relationship between my dad and i in my early childhood)

    Neutral child vs. Active parent This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 9

    The Neutral child is often overwhelmed and frightened by the controlling, domineering Active parent. Lacking self-assertion skills, he prefers to withdraw and stay out of the way, minimizing his own needs and avoiding the parent as much as possible. On the few occasions the child reaches out to the caretaker, he ends up feeling rejected and bullied around for no apparent reason, which causes him to withdraw again. The loneliness, however, also feels like rejection and soon enough the youngster will be ambivalent towards both being alone and being with others.

    Most of the time, a compromise will be made. This type will seek out company but will not invest themselves in it, preferring to keep in the background and go with the flow, partly removed from their actual situation. When alone, they will avoid introspection, which will bring about old feelings of depression and rejection, instead they'd rather numb themselves out with food, TV or other unimportant routines to avoid emotional pain.
    ^applies to my dad and i when he was shouting and being aggressive; when i was afraid of violence or that he would lose all control.


    i alternated between the two above with my dad... when he was jekyll i wasn't enough or was abandoned. and there were limits to how far i could go as i didn't want hyde to return. i always seemed to think i could somehow affect this--that it was my fault when his mood turned. eventually the second of the two overrode the first... the tipping point was probably around age 12. a lot of this is that he became increasingly emotionally unbalanced as time went on. in response i became increasingly afraid and felt increasingly oppressed. i gave up my agenda bit by bit because i was too afraid of violence. i didn't have anywhere to go, didn't want to abandon my mom or sister, and if i tried to run i thought i'd just end up back with him and i dreaded how angry and violent *that* would make him. i also began developing escapism tendencies in my teens such as not eating (this made me feel i'd escaped or at least had some control) and withdrawing into fantasy. although really my sister and i were always using fantasy--me especially--even at a younger age. but it became more "pathological" later? more deeply ruminative?

    i recently realized that my lack of body awareness is rather abnormal and i think it's because i was subjected to long periods of discomfort with my dad that surpassed my stamina and so i learned not to notice it at all so i could get through it. also apparently being continually put in fight or flight situations where you can do neither contributes to a lack of sensory awareness over time.


    Neutral child vs. Responsive parent This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 5

    In this relationship, the Responsive parent is inclined to give a lot of unrequested attention to the Neutral child, who perceives his parent's supportive and affectionate attitude as a form of smothering. The youngster will tend to withdraw from his environment, preferring solitary activities and contemplation, but as opposed to the previous scenario (of type 9), loneliness will not be accompanied by a feeling of rejection. At the contrary, being alone is a matter of choice and it gives a feeling of security and well-being, knowing that there is always someone to communicate with when they decide to seek out company.

    Such children are genuine loners, who prefer and enjoy their solitude. They are introspective, insightful and love learning and discovering things on their own, usually rejecting any help or intervention from the outside. They are afraid of being intruded upon because their parents used to make a fuss over them and suffocate them with attention and demands for closeness.
    ^this applies to my mom and i. i often felt overly smothered by her and needed to escape, but she was also the only place of safety. she wouldn't protect me, but she also wouldn't hurt me. also she was the only one who would fight to get me medical attention if i was incredibly sick. that was one area in which she would stand up to my dad.

    (i feel bad about this because i don't blame my mom for not protecting us more... i understand why. i also understand my dad to a fair degree. it's hard because he's not alive anymore so i can't talk to him to try to resolve anything with him. i have already forgiven him i think, just not myself. but the two are intertwined.)


     
    also my dad disliked my active qualities too... perhaps this aided in coming to hate them myself and wishing to destroy them (that and how his expression of these qualities was almost always negative and i was afraid of being like him). the neutral child personality was defensive in a lot of ways: how to survive and endure. it was also something i hated less (maybe because it generated less disapproval from my dad... although he didn't like my withdrawal and i think i did that kind of stubbornly as the last way in which i could resist since i couldn't stand up to him (i think in the beginning it was refusal to respond since what i wanted to say would only make him more angry... so i would stare and refuse to respond). but it morphed into wanting to escape--that's the more stable form it has grown into).

    so really my relationships with both parents formed identification with the neutral qualities as the way to be where i could cope and hate myself less. but my identity is almost split in a lot of ways. so now i have the two faces also: active vs. neutral.


    all the responsive elements are just scattered... like they don't seem to form a theme for me. my mom generally matches the responsive qualities and always has (she is responsive/active - her active qualities were cowed when with my dad a lot of the time--or they would be displaced into work environments).


    my active qualities are displaced *by* work environments as i think the workplace becomes "my father" in my mind. part of this is because i feel like workplaces are life or death (i feel that no one really wants me and so it's hard to earn any money and my personality is never acceptable enough so i have to be someone else so as not to be fired... there isn't really anyone who could support me without a job so i feel i am on my own). it's also that the conformity and restrictions on self-expression remind me of my home environment as a child, and so i feel forced to hide my individuality. this creates great resentment. i also feel like a slave in society. i think i tend to reveal things about myself off and on at work (when i feel the oppression has lifted a little) that are likely to be unusual or unaccepted out of this need to show that i am different (not "one of you") or out of need to rebel against conformity. these little moments don't really help my cause.

    one issue i have with E9 is that it's not that i embrace conformity but that i am constantly fighting myself *not* to reveal my actual attitudes. often when i express my actual attitudes it's because they bled out and i couldn't stop it because i felt too strongly. i'm afraid that workplaces are my second death--where i will finally be stripped of all of my personality and turned into a mindless drone never allowed its own life.

    my dad was such an overwhelming presence in the home, and everything for all of us was about him and his moods; fearing his next rage. he also isolated us as much as he could. since his presence kind of was my entire home life i think this may be why i associate workplaces with him rather than individuals as much. although i am very afraid of men old enough to be my dad when they shout... i may freeze and try not to cry or visibly shake (which was what always happened when my dad would pin me somewhere and shout at me).


    i probably suppress some responsive qualities in myself because my dad rejected them in my mom (and actually in me as well - he might mock them). they come out very slowly if i feel like i can trust someone and i feel uncomfortable with these qualities and unstable (so it's just a struggle). it's like these are the aspects of myself i need to keep safe so no one can reject me for them (or for not being able to express them well). maybe this is why i may love in secret.


    (also please don't quote too much of this.)
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-24-2016 at 04:53 PM.

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    I can't put both of my parents + myself in a single category that would work throughout the course of my childhood

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    With my dad it was responsive responsive

    Same with my mom my mom is more pushy than my dad what set expectations and watched to see what happened rather than asserting dominance

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    In like pre puberty formative years I suppose my mom and myself were probably responsive and my dad neutral, in which case responsive-responsive could work since my mom was more involved.

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    Responsive child vs. Responsive parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 6

    This child will usually establish a very close relationship with his caretaker and will tend to become dependent on the nurturing, affectionate figure that offers him support and understanding. A strong desire for harmonious relationships is created and the Responsive child will reject and feel threatened by conflicts and lack of stability. Such types will seek playmates and groups that share their values and interests and will take an 'us against the world' stance, typically towards unfamiliar people and circumstances.

    These Responsive children will prefer to play by the rules in order to keep themselves safe from any disharmony that will endanger their comforting, supportive relationships. They will be playful, endearing and loyal to their chosen groups and intimates, while at the same time remaining alert and vigilant to avoid any conflicts and hidden threats. Suspicion of other people's motives can arise as a protection from abandonment and rejection - they are in fact very afraid of losing their safe, nurturing grounds.
    this seems strange to me because i thought one of the issues with E6 was feeling a lack of safety and security as a child (or at least, could be that in some cases).

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    i grew up with my mother and the enneagram 4 description is a pretty accurate portrayal of our relationship dynamic in my childhood. i can't say i was an "active" child in general, with other people i behaved differently.

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    instinct types all had active parents
    heart/image types all had neutral parents
    head types all had responsive parents

    active children: 8, 7, 4 (assertive types?)
    responsive children: 1, 6, 2 (compliant types)
    neutral children: 9, 5, 3 (withdrawn types?)

    it seems it would make sense to switch 3 & 4.

    3: active child; neutral parent
    4: neutral child; neutral parent

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    Notes about myself~


    - For most of my life, I've been Neutral (so 9, 5, and 3 are theoretically the types most likely to develop since they've had more time to do so)
    - I actually, contrary to what you may think, also have had an active sorta rebellion streak as a teenager ;p and so this would give me reason to also, however weakly, possess Active orientations (8, 4, 7)
    - Why I am not Responsive
    The one that fits me least is Responsive, I'm sorry but I've never really been good at that. I either shut up and remain silent, passively accepting my fate, or attempt to push myself outwards and make my needs known, but I'm not very willingly Responsive tbh. I either have my own agenda and try to make myself satisfied, or I give in because I don't feel that my agenda is really worth the effort, but either way is more or less selfish, contrary to a Responsive type that would go out of their way to help others and support their agenda. And I'm seriously not the best emotional support.... I'll give you what you ask for usually to the best of my ability and make you feel good about your decisions if they're even somewhat reasonable, and am always willing to listen to whatever.. but when you don't come to me I will not be very receptive or friendly. Basically I don't care enough to help others just so I can feel good and strengthen the relationship and will avoid approaching others with problems that aren't obvious enough , but I have nothing better to do than help others when they come to me and usually it's worthwhile for me to learn to understand others. But for the most part I'm apathetic and really don't care about people.


    Reasons for each Enneatype~

    Dominant; Parents Active (Overlaps with E9 and E8)

    No reason for any other type to dominate, they're fucking LSEs afterall, they have an agenda and they know it, they have a moral code and they show it, nothing else to say.
    And I mean, this would support the notion that I am a hardcore E9~ :3

    Furthermore, E8... now I know I may not look like it at all, but let's look at the alternative wing's child-parent relationship, E1: LOL NO BYE, I DONT DO THAT, I MAY BE "COMPLIANT" BUT I DO IT WITH THE MIND OF A REBEL. I'm not going to take this into consideration for my actual enneatype though.


    Semi-relevant; Parents: Responsive (Overlaps with E5 and E7)
    - This was somewhat absent when most relevant, in my early child years, though they were always Responsive in their own Si Te way, nothing emotional though, so some loneliness and isolation did follow, but this could have been a positive thing in that I would have developed some E5 traits. And I do think I have.

    And I don't relate at all to 7, completely different relations to parents. E5: Apathy; i like all this luvey duvey stuff but i gotta go now ok? byebybe E7: Im actually enjoying myself all the time and feel so happy to be in such a loving family!



    Still Relevant; Parents: Neutral (Overlaps with E4)

    Hm... I almost was going to say that I never felt frustrated that my parents couldn't emotionally understand me and responded in a very dramatic and selfish manner, but... well I have done that. >_> But that was E8. I still think I'm E4, but I never tried to elicit positive emotions from my parents, no... I tried to make a very dramatic spectacle that would show my intense disliking for them, to show how I felt about them. There's the difference. I'm still a bit of a whore for attention. But with my parents at least, I attempted to make them feel what I felt not make them feel better about me, no i intentionally became a failure of a child to spite their standards. lol I relied too much on using my anger to get sympathy from my dad to feel bad about how he treats me, that's the kind of attention I always wanted, some form of "you were right, I was wrong." : P Embarrassingly I still sometimes rely on pity and making others look like the bad guy, so I guess that's a form of manipulation lol, but not enneagram related it seems.

    SX-9 SP-4 SX-5



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