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Thread: Experience w narcissists

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    Default Experience w people w NPD

    What is your experience w people who probably or definitely exhibit Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?

    To clarify: here is a very brief description:

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder that is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others.

    (OP note: the lack of empathy is a tip-off that the person exhibits NPD and is not just a show-off. Also of note: you may not witness this lack of empathy unless you or someone within your view angers the N, usually by criticizing them or making them feel they are not the best or do not have a better life than you [this can happen quite by accident]).


    Like many people who grow up w narcissists in their families, I seem to be somewhat sensitized to narcissism in others, and over the years I have met a few and been forced by circumstance ("forced" is too strong a word...compelled, maybe...anyway) to live and/or work w a couple of these.

    I'm especially interested in how narcissism progresses over time. The particular N who inspired this thread is in his early thirties and very good at hiding his N tendencies from people who aren't close to him. Most Ns are good at that, ime...though his facade is beginning to chip w some people, he is good at finding and charming new admirers/"friends" to trick for a while (sometimes a long while, as long as they don't get too close or suggest he makes any mistake or has any flaws, then they are usually OUT). I run into him from time to time, and I wonder in an almost scientific way how it will all turn out for him as he gets older...I know an older N who is mostly okay, though pretty alone (he seems okay w this, from what I can tell, though he does require admiration from people) but his life seems to me like it could have turned out much better if he hadn't driven everyone off...now that he is approaching old age, he has become somewhat more easygoing, though I'm not close enough to tell if this is real or just a new face to wear.
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 06-10-2016 at 05:28 PM.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    The narcissistic topic is a new fashion nowadays. I got hurt? He must be a narcissist. She is charming? Must be a narcissist too. I was dumped? He or she is surely lacking empathy. How dared he having ditched my lovely and kind person? Definitely narcissist. Duh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    The narcissistic topic is a new fashion nowadays. I got hurt? He must be a narcissist. She is charming? Must be a narcissist too. I was dumped? He or she is surely lacking empathy. How dared he having ditched my lovely and kind person? Definitely narcissist. Duh.
    Eh... in making this thread I am trusting that others are not as silly as that. I'm talking about actual, true narcissists, and there are many.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Had to look up the traits, and I'm not sure I know anyone who is so delusional as to fit the criteria. Oh, maybe one person, but I don't associate with him because he is insufferable.

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    I mean its grey-scale, not black and white. If you're not an awaken Buddhist monk or God made flesh you will have x amount of narcissistic traits and behaviors. A narcissist is defined by where you place the marker.

    My opinion of it, is that it's akin to the same shortcomings of the ego-epidemic. The more you care about what others think about you, the less happiness you are able to have in life. Don't be one of those people. Everyone who does is doomed.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I have known people with traits but I doubt if that would be their actual diagnosis, now that I have read the criteria. I have more experience with people who have borderline personality disorder. So emotionally, mentally, and spiritually exhausting.

    I feel like I would be able to deal with a narcissist better.

    Edit: When I think of a pure narc I think of Donald Trump. He seems to display all the criteria I just read. I really do not know anyone like that irl. I have known some pretty cunning and arrogant people who felt entitled but still not in the way he presents. They still had some empathy. My own mom seems to lack empathy but she is LSI. I know she feels more than she ever let on. She was just a go-getter but I don't know if it was ever important to her to have people like her or show admiration. Not that she didn't appreciate it when they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Eh... in making this thread I am trusting that others are not as silly as that. I'm talking about actual, true narcissists, and there are many.
    You are more trusting than me when it comes to people discerning. Especially since it plastered all over some some FB pages. It is exactly like Perse says. They do not know the difference and it makes it difficult for most people to understand your experience because they have none. Even when you say you know a pure narc they will only compare it to what they think is a narc and not understand your perspective because their "narc" is just some selfish idiot who annoys them.

    Edit: I am thinking you are referring to someone who fits the profile of the thread I posted, awhile back, about injustice collectors?

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1128459
    Last edited by Aylen; 06-10-2016 at 05:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    ...
    I'm especially interested in how narcissism progresses over time. The particular N who inspired this thread is in his early thirties and very good at hiding his N tendencies from people who aren't close to him. Most Ns are good at that, ime...though his facade is beginning to chip w some people, he is good at finding and charming new admirers/"friends" to trick for a while (sometimes a long while, as long as they don't get too close or suggest he makes any mistake or has any flaws, then they are usually OUT). I run into him from time to time, and I wonder in an almost scientific way how it will all turn out for him as he gets older...I know an older N who is mostly okay, though pretty alone (he seems okay w this, from what I can tell, though he does require admiration from people) but his life seems to me like it could have turned out much better if he hadn't driven everyone off...now that he is approaching old age, he has become somewhat more easygoing, though I'm not close enough to tell if this is real or just a new face to wear.
    Interesting that I was just thinking this, particularly concerning the a Narcissist that used to be a big part of my life, who is getting older....

    To clarify Narcissism for anyone who does not know, it is a serious psychological disorder - an entirely different way of looking at reality. They tend to be very functional, except for relationships to those closest to them, and they cannot relate lovingly. It is said that they, who put their all vision and energy into their image and live on the reactions of others to that image, are a vast emptiness inside, and therefore they find it too frightening to look inside themselves in therapy, which is why therapists run from them when they find that's what they are working with. But Narcissist traits are something we all have to some degree or another - except for maybe those exceptions Pookie made - because we need some traits to get by in the world. So Saffie is talking about the disorder here. Those people with a whole different take on reality.

    Narcissism stems from an early wound. In these days with so many dysfunctional and broken families it is no surprise that Narcissism in on the rise - it's the fruit of woundedness. Patricia Evans in her book Controlling People explains how they got that way. They were controlled/abused/invalidated/unseen as a child and at some young age they decided that this was how the world is. You are either controlled/abused or you control/abuse. And they sure did not want to live their life in the first category - they know what that is like - so they would pick the 2nd category. And they chose that path, young, and got locked in it, and they can't get out. Its their different view of reality, as the rest of us see there are other choices in life. So also do others who grew up in the same household - not every kid in that same situation becomes a Narcissist. Evans says the difference is they had some ONE person to validate them with words, actions, or even a LOOK that said, "What is happening to you is not right." That person grows up looking for the right. While the one, who never got that, looks around and it seems to him everyone confirms this reality - that what happens to him is just supposed to be.

    Hope that makes sense. I read it a long time ago.

    The Narcissist that used to be a part of my life, and is not in it now, I heard a bit about the other day. He always worked very hard and was always had worldly success. His drive was beginning to make him old before his time when he exited my life, and this is also what i just heard of him. Also some of his many siblings (which I do not see all as Narcissists, but probably one other, and they all hold some trauma from having to shoulder responsibilities and fears alone at too young an age). Childhood trauma that never gets addressed tends to magnify when one becomes an adult. In the case of the ex-N. in my life, when he was young he would stay awake into the early hours waiting for his Dad to stumble in drunk from the Elks club because of the time his Dad stumbled in and laboriously made his way up the huge staircase - an old high-ceiling-ed house - and fell down the entire staircase and lay bleeding below, making a terrible noise, but N. was the only who heard it and came to his rescue, waking the others up. So night after night this child would do vigil, waiting for his Dad to stumble in and take the long, forever crawl up the stairs that could at any moment end in tragedy - a burden no child should have to take on. He felt he alone could prevent tragedy for all, by staying awake. So he always had issues sleeping and needed certain conditions to sleep.

    Well so what I heard recently is that this issue has magnified and become a serious, serious problems. He not sleeping at ALL, night after night. He has had all kinds of sleep studies and they don't know what to make of it. And for the first time since I was burned by this N., I feel truly sorry for him. Particularly because I am not surprised to know those sleep study experts don't know what to make of him - he needs to get to the root of the problem, but unfortunately this is exactly what a N. desperately does not want to do - look inside. Meanwhile he carries a huge load of responsibility and commutes to work in some of the worst traffic in the country. My friend says he looks awful. And I truly feel bad for him. So I am praying. In fact I am going to pray an hour at Adoration today and will pray for him, and for the N. you know, Sapphire, and some other 16typers here who need prayer, because Jesus' heart must be heavy for them all and if I don't pray someday He will ask me why I did not pray for those He put on my heart. This is the Year of Mercy and I will pray for Mercy for all these Narcissists as well as everyone who has struggles, especially with other people (the hardest kind!).
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    I can't picture this type of person. Okay so it's someone who posts a lot of stuff about themselves on Facebook?

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    On the one hand, I agree w those of you who are saying it's a continuum and that everyone exhibits some narcissistic tendencies. But Narcissistic Personality Disorder is so much more than that, and frankly if you disagree then you have never had a major run-in w such a person, and you have no idea how fortunate you are (or maybe how unfortunate people in the midst of such run-ins are).

    I may go into more detail later, but I had a narcissist literally try to ruin my life a few years ago. That is not an exaggeration; he nearly caused me to lose my home (it only worked temporarily, I'm happy to say), tried to destroy not only my reputation but some of my close relationships, and told lie after lie to me and others... all provoked by envy and a sense that he could steamroll me bc I had given in so many times before.

    Anyone reading this is free not to believe me, but it's the truth. When I not only asked but begged for reasons why he was doing the things he was doing, he wouldn't tell me and still never has... because there is nothing, including anything vengeful. Which brings me to a tip for anyone who comes under attack by a genuine narcissist: 1. do NOT try to get revenge, and 2. do NOT try to argue with them.
    1. Do not attempt revenge -- A narcissist has no scruples about hurting others, and he may well destroy you if you give them a reason to (or an "excuse"). The only reason I made it through the situation alluded to above and didn't lose my home, belongings, etc [my very closest relationships were safe bc the N gave himself away many times in his rage] is that I didn't do or even say anything even unkind in response, ever, as I sensed (correctly) that he was trying to bait me into doing something to him so he could point to that as both a reason for him to do what he was doing to me [nevermind that that wouldn't make sense chronologically; he is a pathological, and very convincing, liar] and a way to actually destroy me in as many ways as possible].
    2. Do not try to argue -- I learned this the hard way, but they will twist your words and misquote you, and they will try to rewrite history to suit their argument... also, they will tell all kinds of lies, some of them outlandish, about your own behavior to try to bait you into arguing further and somehow letting them get a "win." My advice is to communicate as high a percentage of your interactions in type -- email, text message, whatever -- if you MUST communicate, and stick to the facts without trying to correct every lie and twisted truth they throw out. Stay as objective as possible, describe events, and don't name-call or sink to their level in other ways. It may well backfire.

    They will call you "delusional" (their favorite word, it seems) when you simply describe events that happened. That's fine; they are projecting. In fact, in my experience nearly everything a N says about you in a dispute is actually descriptive of them. Let it go, and try to get documentation of what actually happened/happens if at all possible; you will probably need it later when they try to convince people that you did things you didn't do (including the things they actually did).

    Anyway, before I get too carried away, let me just clarify again that I am talking about people w NPD, not just ego-centric people or people who post a lot of selfies on social media; such people may or may not suffer from NPD (and Ns may or may not do those things), but they are not necessarily whom I'm talking/asking about in this thread.

    Actually, I'll go edit the OP now....

    Also, I get that people who have had such experiences may not want to answer, but if you are inclined to say something about the questions I asked, or anything else, I am very interested (w utmost compassion at the same time).
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Sapphire, when a person is vengeful and they want you to suffer for their pain and they lack compassion and empathy, it is possible for them to go to any length to mistreat you and hurt you. Ugh just ugh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Interesting that I was just thinking this, particularly concerning the a Narcissist that used to be a big part of my life, who is getting older....

    To clarify Narcissism for anyone who does not know, it is a serious psychological disorder - an entirely different way of looking at reality. They tend to be very functional, except for relationships to those closest to them, and they cannot relate lovingly. It is said that they, who put their all vision and energy into their image and live on the reactions of others to that image, are a vast emptiness inside, and therefore they find it too frightening to look inside themselves in therapy, which is why therapists run from them when they find that's what they are working with. But Narcissist traits are something we all have to some degree or another - except for maybe those exceptions Pookie made - because we need some traits to get by in the world. So Saffie is talking about the disorder here. Those people with a whole different take on reality.

    Narcissism stems from an early wound. In these days with so many dysfunctional and broken families it is no surprise that Narcissism in on the rise - it's the fruit of woundedness. Patricia Evans in her book Controlling People explains how they got that way. They were controlled/abused/invalidated/unseen as a child and at some young age they decided that this was how the world is. You are either controlled/abused or you control/abuse. And they sure did not want to live their life in the first category - they know what that is like - so they would pick the 2nd category. And they chose that path, young, and got locked in it, and they can't get out. Its their different view of reality, as the rest of us see there are other choices in life. So also do others who grew up in the same household - not every kid in that same situation becomes a Narcissist. Evans says the difference is they had some ONE person to validate them with words, actions, or even a LOOK that said, "What is happening to you is not right." That person grows up looking for the right. While the one, who never got that, looks around and it seems to him everyone confirms this reality - that what happens to him is just supposed to be.

    Hope that makes sense. I read it a long time ago.

    The Narcissist that used to be a part of my life, and is not in it now, I heard a bit about the other day. He always worked very hard and was always had worldly success. His drive was beginning to make him old before his time when he exited my life, and this is also what i just heard of him. Also some of his many siblings (which I do not see all as Narcissists, but probably one other, and they all hold some trauma from having to shoulder responsibilities and fears alone at too young an age). Childhood trauma that never gets addressed tends to magnify when one becomes an adult. In the case of the ex-N. in my life, when he was young he would stay awake into the early hours waiting for his Dad to stumble in drunk from the Elks club because of the time his Dad stumbled in and laboriously made his way up the huge staircase - an old high-ceiling-ed house - and fell down the entire staircase and lay bleeding below, making a terrible noise, but N. was the only who heard it and came to his rescue, waking the others up. So night after night this child would do vigil, waiting for his Dad to stumble in and take the long, forever crawl up the stairs that could at any moment end in tragedy - a burden no child should have to take on. He felt he alone could prevent tragedy for all, by staying awake. So he always had issues sleeping and needed certain conditions to sleep.

    Well so what I heard recently is that this issue has magnified and become a serious, serious problems. He not sleeping at ALL, night after night. He has had all kinds of sleep studies and they don't know what to make of it. And for the first time since I was burned by this N., I feel truly sorry for him. Particularly because I am not surprised to know those sleep study experts don't know what to make of him - he needs to get to the root of the problem, but unfortunately this is exactly what a N. desperately does not want to do - look inside. Meanwhile he carries a huge load of responsibility and commutes to work in some of the worst traffic in the country. My friend says he looks awful. And I truly feel bad for him. So I am praying. In fact I am going to pray an hour at Adoration today and will pray for him, and for the N. you know, Sapphire, and some other 16typers here who need prayer, because Jesus' heart must be heavy for them all and if I don't pray someday He will ask me why I did not pray for those He put on my heart. This is the Year of Mercy and I will pray for Mercy for all these Narcissists as well as everyone who has struggles, especially with other people (the hardest kind!).
    The N you describe reminds me of the ones I have known -- I agree w early trauma being a major issue for them (though not everyone who suffers childhood trauma develops NPD, most suffer in some way -- I have read and noticed it is like you said: they (we, but I won't go into that) "learn" that they are either controlled or they control others, and may just as easily develop codependent or other tendencies as NPD. I often wonder what makes the difference, and think it probably comes down in large part to natural temperament plus other, maybe too-subtle-to-articulate, factors. ANYway... the mental and psychological abuse they bring can be worse than (even if it includes) physical abuse, imo.

    One of the older Ns I know also worked hard and attained great wealth and professional success, but only bc he really was (almost?) as good at his job as he bragged that he was... but when he got older he had made so many enemies that he was forced out of his career, and since that was all he had built for himself aside from his wealth, he fell hard when that happened -- also suffering from sleeplessness, interestingly. He has several siblings, only one of whom will have anything to do w him (and he ignores that one most of the time, except when he is in a very low and lonely state) and almost no family left... and I think he has started to realize how he has hurt himself, but only a little and only in spurts; he seems disconnected from it and keeps himself busy w projects so he doesn't have time to ruminate. He has always hated being alone, and suffers from it now more than ever, I think.

    The other one, the early-30s one I mention above, has (imo) shot himself in the foot career-wise bc of his pride. He couldn't handle being picked second for a position he had worked for for many years, and walked away rather than not be seen as number one. Now he is headed for a lower-ranked career so he can be (he expects, probably correctly) number one there. I wonder how it will turn out and whether he will ever have the...courage?... to look inside himself and heal himself, but I doubt it bc like you said, @Eliza Thomason, they are usually totally unwilling or unable.

    I know one other definite N, and he is really something, but I won't get into that now. (Besides him I know a couple of people who might be, and one former boss who definitely was, but eh... I don't know enough about them and their lives to expand on here.)
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    So NPD people have to be seen as number one in anything that they do?,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So NPD people have to be seen as number one in anything that they do?,
    I think it may be more like they believe they are number one, which is related to their sense if entitlement, and if others disagree they get angry or may go into a rage. In something they consider minor they probably don't care, but in their career it hits hard from what I have seen.

    It must be a fragile belief they are number one, though, or in cases like I mention above they would stick around and ignore others' opinions or being picked second bc they would be accimplishing a goal they personally value. What I think (based on extensive research and my own observations) is, they must have admiration and attention from others to tell them they're the best bc they don't really believe it themselves (though if asked, they would probably say they do believe they're the best, and they probably genuinely think that consciously).
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 06-10-2016 at 07:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder that is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others. [/I]
    "Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder that is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity", is itself a Narcissistic defense. "Im not Narcissistic, I don't think im better than everybody". Grandiosity is about thoughts, how one sees themselves. The entire compulsion that drives narcissism is that the way other people see you is how you see yourself. Grandiosity is a red herring. Narcissism is about behavior, not thoughts. A Narcissist is not the person who thinks their the best person in the world, they are the person who behaves as if they are the only person in the world who matters. Its more akin to Self-Absorbedness than it is Arrogance.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    You are more trusting than me when it comes to people discerning. Especially since it plastered all over some some FB pages. It is exactly like Perse says. They do not know the difference and it makes it difficult for most people to understand your experience because they have none. Even when you say you know a pure narc they will only compare it to what they think is a narc and not understand your perspective because their "narc" is just some selfish idiot who annoys them.

    Edit: I am thinking you are referring to someone who fits the profile of the thread I posted, awhile back, about injustice collectors?

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1128459
    I just saw this, and you're probably right about all of what you say here.

    I actually have a good friend who is FB friends w the N who caused the mayhem (but doesn't really know him irl, and hasn't talked w him in years) I allude to in this thread, and she once asked me if I was sure I wasn't exaggerating about what happened, bc based on his FB he seemed "like such a good guy." Part if me wanted to throttle her, part of me wanted to cry, and I just shrugged and told her that I hadn't exaggerated but she could believe what she wanted. The truth is, few people -- I only know of two besides myself, though there may well be more -- know him at his worst (and maybe that's not even his worst, come to think of it!), and most others know him for the facade he wears or as something of a jerk, but not the monster he has inside him. All this to say, I agree w you.

    And yes, the injustice collector sounds right -- interesting thread. The Ns I know even make up injustices, including imagining things they do to others have been done to them, by those others
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    the best blog on the internet for narcissism related posts is thelastpsychiatrist.com
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So NPD people have to be seen as number one in anything that they do?,
    Yes, in fact the one of which I speak - in a great deal of the photos taken of him from childhood up he holds up a "Number One" gesture.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    I'm pretty sure Donald Trump has full blown NPD.


    Apparently stalkerish behavior is quite common after ending a relationship with people with cluster b traits, and in my experience it's very true. I'm still dealing with it.

    https://letmereach.com/2013/11/23/th...ally-unstable/

    These behaviors are part of the psychosis that your Narcissistic partner experiences when they are threatened with losing the person that they had complete control over…you. Stable people have a sense of pride and will not continue to put themselves in a situation where they will be rejected. A Narcissistic stalker has no sense of boundaries, especially in the face of rejection. Their only goal is to get you back under their control by any means possible. This is a sign of mental instability. Stalkers will spend hours planning and executing their stalking, going across town or even to other states.
    ..

    The stalker of former spouses or intimate partners, are often domineering and abusive to their partners during the relationship and use this domination as a way to bolster their own low self- esteem. The control the abusers exert over their partners gives them a feeling of power they can’t find elsewhere. They try to control every aspect of their partner’s lives. Their worst fear is losing people over whom they have control.
    Last edited by fox; 06-16-2016 at 10:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Eh... in making this thread I am trusting that others are not as silly as that. I'm talking about actual, true narcissists, and there are many.
    Yeah ive run into 2 or 3...its exactly how you desvribe. Ive gotten past those experiences so i'd prefer not revisiting them in my mind in order to describe them, but the behavior is pretty cookie cutter... There's a lot of literature out there about this. Once you've experienced it and recognized the behavior for what it is, it very easy to spot, and yes...lots of narcissists out there....
    Last edited by Suz; 06-12-2016 at 01:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    On the one hand, I agree w those of you who are saying it's a continuum and that everyone exhibits some narcissistic tendencies. But Narcissistic Personality Disorder is so much more than that, and frankly if you disagree then you have never had a major run-in w such a person, and you have no idea how fortunate you are (or maybe how unfortunate people in the midst of such run-ins are).

    I may go into more detail later, but I had a narcissist literally try to ruin my life a few years ago. That is not an exaggeration; he nearly caused me to lose my home (it only worked temporarily, I'm happy to say), tried to destroy not only my reputation but some of my close relationships, and told lie after lie to me and others... all provoked by envy and a sense that he could steamroll me bc I had given in so many times before.

    Anyone reading this is free not to believe me, but it's the truth. When I not only asked but begged for reasons why he was doing the things he was doing, he wouldn't tell me and still never has... because there is nothing, including anything vengeful. Which brings me to a tip for anyone who comes under attack by a genuine narcissist: 1. do NOT try to get revenge, and 2. do NOT try to argue with them.
    1. Do not attempt revenge -- A narcissist has no scruples about hurting others, and he may well destroy you if you give them a reason to (or an "excuse"). The only reason I made it through the situation alluded to above and didn't lose my home, belongings, etc [my very closest relationships were safe bc the N gave himself away many times in his rage] is that I didn't do or even say anything even unkind in response, ever, as I sensed (correctly) that he was trying to bait me into doing something to him so he could point to that as both a reason for him to do what he was doing to me [nevermind that that wouldn't make sense chronologically; he is a pathological, and very convincing, liar] and a way to actually destroy me in as many ways as possible].
    2. Do not try to argue -- I learned this the hard way, but they will twist your words and misquote you, and they will try to rewrite history to suit their argument... also, they will tell all kinds of lies, some of them outlandish, about your own behavior to try to bait you into arguing further and somehow letting them get a "win." My advice is to communicate as high a percentage of your interactions in type -- email, text message, whatever -- if you MUST communicate, and stick to the facts without trying to correct every lie and twisted truth they throw out. Stay as objective as possible, describe events, and don't name-call or sink to their level in other ways. It may well backfire.

    They will call you "delusional" (their favorite word, it seems) when you simply describe events that happened. That's fine; they are projecting. In fact, in my experience nearly everything a N says about you in a dispute is actually descriptive of them. Let it go, and try to get documentation of what actually happened/happens if at all possible; you will probably need it later when they try to convince people that you did things you didn't do (including the things they actually did).

    Anyway, before I get too carried away, let me just clarify again that I am talking about people w NPD, not just ego-centric people or people who post a lot of selfies on social media; such people may or may not suffer from NPD (and Ns may or may not do those things), but they are not necessarily whom I'm talking/asking about in this thread.

    Actually, I'll go edit the OP now....

    Also, I get that people who have had such experiences may not want to answer, but if you are inclined to say something about the questions I asked, or anything else, I am very interested (w utmost compassion at the same time).
    The best revenge against these people is to cut them off completely. When you cut them off, you're cutting off their supply and that can be extremely traumatic for them.
    Last edited by fox; 06-11-2016 at 04:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Narcissists tend to have groups of acolytes where the group has some hidden "truth" or shared interest that centres around the narcissist. The hidden truth or shared interest may seem on the surface to be somewhat independent of the narcissist, although the narcissist typically claims some level of exceptionality to understanding the "truth" or in their expertise at the shared interest. Narcissists can treat their loved ones, friends...pets etc. as extensions of their selves: often, love in such relationships is like a mirror. Narcissists are especially prone to seeing the glory or success (even things like how beautiful they look, or how expensive their clothes are) of their loved ones as their own.

    Even somewhat indisputable facts are often not enough to deal with narcissists, including accounts of their own words. They will dispute even those, saying that you have fabricated a case against them, and use the evidence of your dissatisfaction as proof that you have a vendetta against them, thus nothing you say has an validity. They might also say that "I'm not like that now", and accuse you of muck-racking, thus gaining an instant victory in their mind. Alternatively, they may freely accept the charge with a general "So what?" demeanour, which may seem rather leftfield, and of course, is a rather underhand tactic. They may also apologise: any apologies are usually superficial, and generally have the intent of making them seem magnanimous, and perhaps so they swiftly move on from something they see as a lost cause. A variant of this is the "none of us is truly without sin" approach, combined with assaults on your character, typically on something unrelated or possibly even invented.

    When challenging a narcissist, it is not uncommon to have to also deal with their hangers-on and acolytes, who due to the nature of their relationship, can go to absurd levels to bend the truth: and yes, also bystanders who have no knowledge of the individual's true nature. Having several people tell you that your facts are fabricated, and/or that they "know" the narcissist better than you, makes your dissatisfaction rather difficult to resolve, especially if you are made to seem like one delusional person with a grudge (the superficial charm and their persistent lying that narcissists typically have makes the situation all the worse). I think you just have to tackle each particular instance on its own terms, and let time prove you to be correct. If you suspect someone of having such traits, do not let them take care of something you love and "hope for the best": such people do not change for the better.
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    @Eliza Thomason, @sapphire

    I'm sure I've read before that narcissists tend to have received excessive praise during childhood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Eliza Thomason, @sapphire

    I'm sure I've read before that narcissists tend to have received excessive praise during childhood.
    Interesting. I know that as adult children, this whole family considers themselves, the "Smiths" to be awesome. Its like their mantra they have always had. Anything that any one of them does is considered awesome and amazing. So when the family gets together everyone takes a back seat to the "sibling praise fest". (If you married a Smith and are now named Smith, you don't count). That's the best way I can explain it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Eliza Thomason, @sapphire

    I'm sure I've read before that narcissists tend to have received excessive praise during childhood.
    i dont think this is necessarily true.
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    Pathological narcissism is complicated. To the OP, my experience with cluster B traits in my ex is that the problems worsened over time. There was an entire family complex at play; it was not just a one-off. The family matriarch has clear, serious narcissism problems, and these, too, have worsened over the years. Her behavior has gotten more egregious and obvious, and it's become increasingly difficult for everyone to cover for her.

    I'm not sure why you're asking about NPD, but if you were to ask for advice, mine would be simply to get away from anyone who has NPD if you possibly can. And the last thing you want is for that person to be able to have any influence on your family life, career, etc.

    For those who aren't familiar with personality disorders and narcissism in particular, it's not just about being self-centered. A certain amount of narcissism is considered healthy -- necessary. In pathological narcissism, something has gone haywire in core personality development. The pathological narcissist can't model other people's realities, yet will engage with people anyway, on an instrumental level (i.e., "what can I obtain from this person?"), and do them harm.

    When you just read the DSM traits, you can't get a full picture of what the disorder is like. It seems like stuff everyone does, and maybe it is. Short of having to deal with someone who has NPD, you can read portraits in which clinicians fully describe working with individuals with NPD, and you'll see it's not just the foibles of your average person, but pretty fucking nuts.

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    @Subteigh - I don't know what causes NPD, though I have read it can be made more likely by traumatic childhoods, loveless parents, too much praise and too little accountability in childhood and adolescence, and genetics. My feeling is it's a combination. Fwiw, the two I know best were raised w intermittent abuse and extreme praise.

    @Ananke - I agree w you. For me it's not totally possible due to a couple being in my family and in close contact w family members I care about and am also in close contact with, but to the extent it's possible I keep far away from them.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Narcissists tend to have groups of acolytes where the group has some hidden "truth" or shared interest that centres around the narcissist. The hidden truth or shared interest may seem on the surface to be somewhat independent of the narcissist, although the narcissist typically claims some level of exceptionality to understanding the "truth" or in their expertise at the shared interest. Narcissists can treat their loved ones, friends...pets etc. as extensions of their selves: often, love in such relationships is like a mirror. Narcissists are especially prone to seeing the glory or success (even things like how beautiful they look, or how expensive their clothes are) of their loved ones as their own.

    Even somewhat indisputable facts are often not enough to deal with narcissists, including accounts of their own words. They will dispute even those, saying that you have fabricated a case against them, and use the evidence of your dissatisfaction as proof that you have a vendetta against them, thus nothing you say has an validity. They might also say that "I'm not like that now", and accuse you of muck-racking, thus gaining an instant victory in their mind. Alternatively, they may freely accept the charge with a general "So what?" demeanour, which may seem rather leftfield, and of course, is a rather underhand tactic. They may also apologise: any apologies are usually superficial, and generally have the intent of making them seem magnanimous, and perhaps so they swiftly move on from something they see as a lost cause. A variant of this is the "none of us is truly without sin" approach, combined with assaults on your character, typically on something unrelated or possibly even invented.

    When challenging a narcissist, it is not uncommon to have to also deal with their hangers-on and acolytes, who due to the nature of their relationship, can go to absurd levels to bend the truth: and yes, also bystanders who have no knowledge of the individual's true nature. Having several people tell you that your facts are fabricated, and/or that they "know" the narcissist better than you, makes your dissatisfaction rather difficult to resolve, especially if you are made to seem like one delusional person with a grudge (the superficial charm and their persistent lying that narcissists typically have makes the situation all the worse). I think you just have to tackle each particular instance on its own terms, and let time prove you to be correct. If you suspect someone of having such traits, do not let them take care of something you love and "hope for the best": such people do not change for the better.
    Well said. I don't have a lot to add, as every time I started, it just seemed unnecessary, but I wanted to say this fits w my experience and observation as well.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Pathological narcissism is complicated. To the OP, my experience with cluster B traits in my ex is that the problems worsened over time. There was an entire family complex at play; it was not just a one-off. The family matriarch has clear, serious narcissism problems, and these, too, have worsened over the years. Her behavior has gotten more egregious and obvious, and it's become increasingly difficult for everyone to cover for her.

    I'm not sure why you're asking about NPD, but if you were to ask for advice, mine would be simply to get away from anyone who has NPD if you possibly can. And the last thing you want is for that person to be able to have any influence on your family life, career, etc.

    For those who aren't familiar with personality disorders and narcissism in particular, it's not just about being self-centered. A certain amount of narcissism is considered healthy -- necessary. In pathological narcissism, something has gone haywire in core personality development. The pathological narcissist can't model other people's realities, yet will engage with people anyway, on an instrumental level (i.e., "what can I obtain from this person?"), and do them harm.

    When you just read the DSM traits, you can't get a full picture of what the disorder is like. It seems like stuff everyone does, and maybe it is. Short of having to deal with someone who has NPD, you can read portraits in which clinicians fully describe working with individuals with NPD, and you'll see it's not just the foibles of your average person, but pretty fucking nuts.
    Re: symptoms worsening over time -- that's what I've read and to an extent observed as well. The youngest N I know is the one from above...it was ehen he was in his 20s is that it really started to show that something was off...I first realized he has NPD he was about 27, and it has gotten worse since then.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Re: symptoms worsening over time -- that's what I've read and to an extent observed as well. The youngest N I know is the one from above...it was ehen he was in his 20s is that it really started to show that something was off...I first realized he has NPD he was about 27, and it has gotten worse since then.
    I'm not sure why it gets worse. I'd read that it might and kind of wondered *how* it could get worse than it already was. But so far it looks like this to me: People with these problems construct a bubble reality that they live within, and to remain real to them, you have to join them in that bubble. You must never confront them with information or feedback that would destroy the integrity of the bubble. And so as they go through more stages of adulthood, they've built a lot of things inside that bubble (education, careers, marriages and families, not to mention less concrete things like self-concept). The whole structure becomes unwieldy. They have to work harder to keep it intact. And working harder means, in a sense, getting crazier. Evidence from outside the bubble has continued to mount over time, and their denial grows stronger, and their behaviors become even more rigid.

    Also, since they don't easily form relationships that have deeper meaning and connection, they kind of don't get fed the sustenance that people need to truly mature and grow into wisdom and grace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Like many people who grow up w narcissists in their families, I seem to be somewhat sensitized to narcissism in others, and over the years I have met a few and been forced by circumstance ("forced" is too strong a word...compelled, maybe...anyway) to live and/or work w a couple of these.
    If you're a codependent (or have codependent tendencies) you are far more likely to attract and be attracted to pathological Narcissists.

    I'm especially interested in how narcissism progresses over time.
    I think the correct answer to that would be "it doesn't." It's said that they are trapped into their sociopathic modus operandi forever and even with the highest level of self-awareness they could potentially develop (which they most often don't), it's still impossible to make any significant change or cure their disorder.

    Codependents, on the other hand, are much less psychologically damaged, and are able to work on themselves and move out of their unhealthy behavioral patterns and the toxic relationship templates they have been used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    TI know an older N who is mostly okay, though pretty alone (he seems okay w this, from what I can tell, though he does require admiration from people) but his life seems to me like it could have turned out much better if he hadn't driven everyone off...now that he is approaching old age, he has become somewhat more easygoing, though I'm not close enough to tell if this is real or just a new face to wear.
    Experts would probably say it's just another face, since NPDs never use their weak and suppressed undeveloped real self to interact with others (or even with themselves). Not on a conscious level, anyways. And I read somewhere that they compartmentalize their interactions with people in a similar way psychopaths do.

    Here, Sam knows better.
    ďWhether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.Ē

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    I'm not sure why it gets worse. I'd read that it might and kind of wondered *how* it could get worse than it already was. But so far it looks like this to me: People with these problems construct a bubble reality that they live within, and to remain real to them, you have to join them in that bubble. You must never confront them with information or feedback that would destroy the integrity of the bubble. And so as they go through more stages of adulthood, they've built a lot of things inside that bubble (education, careers, marriages and families, not to mention less concrete things like self-concept). The whole structure becomes unwieldy. They have to work harder to keep it intact. And working harder means, in a sense, getting crazier. Evidence from outside the bubble has continued to mount over time, and their denial grows stronger, and their behaviors become even more rigid.

    Also, since they don't easily form relationships that have deeper meaning and connection, they kind of don't get fed the sustenance that people need to truly mature and grow into wisdom and grace.
    The way you put it sounds about right to me...like, if I imagine myself as the N and look at life, I can see that being true. I was just having a conversation w someone about that, bc right before I started this thread I had an unexpected run-in w the N who did what I described above, and he got furious about something I did -- long story short, he had done something bad that I didn't know he had done, using my name, and I went and had it corrected when I found out...and he thought I had done that to harm him...which in the real world doesn't make any sense, but in his world it does, I guess. Anyway, he lost it and said a bunch of stuff that made no sense, and it seems like he wants to believe it bc he has to to maintain his worldview, or like you said his bubble world, but he knows, or part of him does, that it's not true...so the result is rage at me, bc I am the one who caused (in his mind) the reality to come up against his made-up reality.

    I can tell he is worse now than, say, 10 years ago, bc even if he did the original thing using my name behind my back 10 years ago, he would have acted abashed when I found out, let alone when I went and had it fixed so others knew...now, though, it set him off and he was furious.

    His big pet peeve, or so he used to say when we had a lot of contact years ago, was arrogance in others, so he's kind of an interesting N bc he actually is quite atrogant in some big ways, but he also uses humble speech even while showing off...so his arrogant actions belie his humble words, and he doesn't seem to realize it. (This, too, is different than how he was 10 years or so ago...and seems more pronounced as the years go by.

    What you say about lacking close relationships and therefore a certain type of sustenance and wisdom strikes me as true as well. One thing, eg my husband does that I appreciate is that he is honest w me even when it means saying something unpleasant to hear, and I do the same w him...and imo we both grow from it. Ns lack people like that, bc they won't allow them bc criticism, ir perceived criticism, is forbidden...it reminds me of how celebrities sometimes unravel and I wonder if it's partly bc no one ever tells them "no," or sets limits...so they can get into bad spirals. It's the same w the Ns I have observed, as people in their groups as @Subteigh don't (probably sometimes don't dare) say anything to piss them off.
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 06-12-2016 at 07:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    If you're a codependent (or have codependent tendencies) you are far more likely to attract and be attracted to pathological Narcissists.



    I think the correct answer to that would be "it doesn't." It's said that they are trapped into their sociopathic modus operandi forever and even with the highest level of self-awareness they could potentially develop (which they most often don't), it's still impossible to make any significant change or cure their disorder.

    Codependents, on the other hand, are much less psychologically damaged, and are able to work on themselves and move out of their unhealthy behavioral patterns and the toxic relationship templates they have been used to.



    Experts would probably say it's just another face, since NPDs never use their weak and suppressed undeveloped real self to interact with others (or even with themselves). Not on a conscious level, anyways. And I read somewhere that they compartmentalize their interactions with people in a similar way psychopaths do.

    Here, Sam knows better.
    You are exactly right, both about developing codependent tendencies and about that attracting Ns. They can smell it, it seems. Likewise, they dislike strong people w good boundaries, and if a codependent an N is used to using develops into such a person, the N will lose it...which is part of what happened w me, incidentally.

    The N I've been talking about, the 30-something one, is a misogynist (but doesn't realize it and would vehemently deny) and hates strong women...by which I mean women who stand up for themselves. I remember when Halle Berry wouldn't do a movie unless she was paid on par w her male co-stars, and he called her all kinds of names. That's a small example, but there are many similar ones I saw w him.

    And yes, it likely is just another face. I keep my distance, as I haven't seen anything to indicate actual change and like you say, experts say they only stagnate or get worse...supposedly elderly Ns can be some of the most cruel, and I have no reason to doubt that.
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 06-12-2016 at 07:09 PM.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    You are exactly right, both about developing codependent tendencies and about that attracting Ns. They can smell it, it seems. Likewise, they dislike strong people w good boundaries, and if a codependent an N is used to using develops into such a person, the N will lose it...which is part of what happened w me, incidentally.
    Yes.

    The same point being made for romantic relationships, from 32:20.

    ďWhether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.Ē

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    That's great. The older N I know is an 8w9, and is just as described there and about a minute before...he gets a sense of power by weilding money, but giving it as gifts is also how he shows his love ("love"?). But he will let that lead to making others dependent on him if he can, so he is in control...it's a weird cycle to watch. He doesn't seem comfortable showing love ("love") in "normal" ways, maybe bc he is not capable. I can't post in depth at the moment, but wanted to say thanks for posting this -- I'm looking forward to listening to the whole thing when I get a chance.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    This is a really scary thread for me. On the one hand, I can see that my mother exhibited many narcissistic traits, and putting a name to her behavior helps to explain why she treated me and my sisters the way she did when we were growing up, and why one of my sisters now has a "no contact" policy with her. (I simply have her on 99% ignore, while the other sister is still trying to please her.)
    On the other hand, I can interpret some of my own behavior as narcissistic, and I have read that one predictor of whether a person is a narcissist is that they have a narcissistic parent.

    One horrible thing about being narcissistic is that it is like being passive-aggressive, in that a person with these traits is unlikely to change, because the behavior is working for them.

    I'm hoping that @Pookie is right in saying that this behavior can be seen in everyone to some degree, and that the important thing is the cutoff point. I took an online test for narcissism and got this result:

    Adam's Narcissist Test Results.jpg

    But, of course, the test was self-administered.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-13-2016 at 04:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is a really scary thread for me. On the one hand, I can see that my mother exhibited many narcissistic traits, and putting a name to her behavior helps to explain why she treated me and my sisters the way she did when we were growing up, and why one of my sisters now has a "no contact" policy with her. (I simply have her on 99% ignore, while the other sister is still trying to please her.)
    On the other hand, I can interpret some of my own behavior as narcissistic, and I have read that one predictor of whether a person is a narcissist is that they have a narcissistic parent.

    One horrible thing about being narcissistic is that it is like being passive-aggressive, in that a person with these traits is unlikely to change, because the behavior is working for them.

    I'm hoping that @Pookie is right in saying that this behavior can be seen in everyone to some degree, and that the important thing is the cutoff point. I took an online test for narcissism and got this result:

    Attachment 7769

    But, of course, the test was self-administered.
    I couldn't see your results from the link, so I don't know if you took this same test, but here's a test to see to what extent you are or may be a narcissist: link
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 06-12-2016 at 11:45 PM.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    I wouldnt say the important thing is the cutoff point, thats just what distinguishes the disorder. The important thing is the effect on your surroundings. All actions have a blast radius, if the people caught in yours dont suffer, than theres nothing to worry about.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    All actions have a blast radius, if the people caught in yours dont suffer, than theres nothing to worry about.
    Disorder is what makes suffer you or other people near. All what fits to medical criterias is such. Even if noone near have problem in some moment, a person with "disorder" is thought to make a problem in the future with significantly more probability than average "normal" human.
    If the probability or degree of the harm is low it's never called as disorder, but character's accentuation, extravagance, etc.

    I don't know a person with such official diagnosis. But I saw people close to it. All were hard to be called as honest. One of such people had episodes of fraud and was under court.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I can't picture this type of person. Okay so it's someone who posts a lot of stuff about themselves on Facebook?
    Nope, that's perhaps a narcissistic trait, and we all have/need to have those traits in varying degrees and manifestations. A Narcissist Personality Disorder person is a different ball of wax entirely. As Golden said, you want to run far and fast when you see you have one in your life. The trouble is, if you don't know what an NPD is, you can have them in your life while you are getting more and more entangled in their web, while you make excuses for their strange ways ("nobody's perfect") and you overlook things, out of kindness and charity. It would be good to find out what NPD is, since a marraige to them will end in a sad, bad divorce.. and if you don't know what NPD is, you could mistakenly marry one... The Sam Vatkin videos that Park posted would be a good place to begin this essential education. .
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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