Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 140

Thread: SEE/ESFp and ILI/INTp Duality? (Aggressor-Victim)

  1. #1
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Question SEE/ESFp and ILI/INTp Duality? (Aggressor-Victim)

    I'm really, really curious to know what an SEE's and ILI's duality looks like in a romantic relationship. What's it like?

  2. #2
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Will write tomorrow
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  3. #3
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think now I've officially decided that my parents are duals.

    They were an arranged marriage made by my grandmother on my dad's side. After his first marriage to a woman he loved failed, she went looking for his match. She said she went to buy bread from a village and noticed my mom baking bread and there she decided this was the one for her son.

    They met once or twice before the wedding and my mom thought he was very good looking my dad liked that she was tiny.Well they got married. My dad wanted more kids (5 plus) my mom wanted 2 but my sister was a surprise. So they had three kids.

    Their marriage was smooth sailing until 10 years into it the Soviet union collapsed and they had to get out. We had visas to leave but my mom didn't want to leave her home country. My dad argued and assured her that things would get tough and they would go back and even support her family. After many arguments and crying she caved in.

    Here in the US my father worked hard but we lived an extremely modest means. One shoe person person child per year should give you an idea.

    He is a man of his word. Depression, earthquake, you name it. He helped support her family. They got to go back several times since.

    My mom has just recently opened up to me about their relationship. She never spoke in the past. I think she's open because she is having a hard time letting go of him.

    She says "your dad always made sure that we had money and our needs were met. We paid the bills together. We talked about everything."

    When dad got prostate cancer he had to have an extensive interview where they were asked about their sex life and I learned that it was off the hook. But you couldn't tell...just saying.

    They snickered over small things like his lack of organizing especially in the kitchen, and his hurrying to do things and not being patient.

    But my father was the one who cooked. He's a chef by trade and boy could he put a meal on the table.

    He was faithful (sex helps I guess lol). My mom is a mommy mommy and can't cook if her life depended on it But no matter, my dad's sister's loved and cooked for us when he was gone.
    Last edited by Maritsa; 06-10-2016 at 05:06 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  4. #4
    Contra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    TIM
    ILI-Ni
    Posts
    1,407
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    SEE owns the external world and ILI owns the internal world.

  5. #5
    Muddytextures's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    TIM
    shape shifting NT
    Posts
    765
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'll first note that I don't have any stories to tell of first-hand experience with SEE-ILI duality so all I can give is my subjective analysis. The way I see is that basically each sees the other as a god/goddess in the respective fields, with ILI admiring the remarkable smoothness and social skills which ILI often feels himself sorely lacking in, while SEE admires the incredible depth of the ILI's insights. Sometimes they will poke each other on their flaws but in a way that creates trust between partners rather then causing tension. The ILI's insecurities regarding love and romance serves as a playground for SEE and their Fi creative while ILI in turn is happy just to have someone who actually gives them attention.
    Last edited by Muddytextures; 06-10-2016 at 08:09 AM.

  6. #6
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,280
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    somewhere it was written, politeness and humor, that's true.
    i've been in a couple shortlived relations with see, among those one with a girlfriend, and another just friendship with a guy see, in which i've noticed that the SEE was pretty demanding in those relations. Sure the interaction was smooth, and sometimes the demandingness wasn't too bad since we usually went to great places due to that, but it was also annoying to be playing second violin the whole time, and/or letting yourself be used to put it bluntly.
    In other see relationships things went smoother, but there is always the element of ILI adapting to SEE. I used to be a good adapter, but now i'm older (40) i'm not anymore.

  7. #7
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    somewhere it was written, politeness and humor, that's true.
    i've been in a couple shortlived relations with see, among those one with a girlfriend, and another just friendship with a guy see, in which i've noticed that the SEE was pretty demanding in those relations. Sure the interaction was smooth, and sometimes the demandingness wasn't too bad since we usually went to great places due to that, but it was also annoying to be playing second violin the whole time, and/or letting yourself be used to put it bluntly.
    In other see relationships things went smoother, but there is always the element of ILI adapting to SEE. I used to be a good adapter, but now i'm older (40) i'm not anymore.
    This is interesting. I'm an SEE, but I would not want my boyfriend to constantly be submissive to me. That's no fun. It's why my relationship with an Infantile IEE went south very quickly.

    I don't see myself as "demanding" in the harsh sense of the word. I'm more... "pushing" if that makes sense. Lol.

    "Demanding" sounds more along the lines of Se/Ti

  8. #8
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .

  9. #9
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,776
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    This is interesting. I'm an SEE, but I would not want my boyfriend to constantly be submissive to me.
    Have you actually had close interactions with ILIs? If not, that might explain why you still believe this.

    I have an ILI sister-in-law of whom everyone denies my statement that she likes to be spanked. She herself would probably deny that too. Someday her SEE-prince will come and she will learn something totally unexpected about herself ;-)

    Subjugation is at the core of ILI's Se-dual seeking function. An ILI who, in a close relationship, is not subject to subjugation, might actually provoke you to do so. It's the way ILIs feel they are cared about. Stratiyevskaya described this quite nicely:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

    Often when I run into an ILI I feel the angry inclination to beat the shit out of them. Which in fact means it is what they want, or else I wouldn't feel it.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  10. #10
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    ILI are tiny dictators. I don't think you're going to find a submissive person in them. They know how to shuffle people around and arrange things to their liking and they know how to stand up for themselves.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  11. #11
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    TIM
    ESI-Se 6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,255
    Mentioned
    139 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    They want to be beat up or else you wouldn't feel that you want to beat them up?@consentingadult.

    That is bizarre statement &....no.

  12. #12
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, aren't ILI's and LIE's pseudo-aggressors?

    I saw them once described as the aggressor (especially if female) is more "enticing" and indirectly aggressive and the pseudo-agressor victim perceives this obvious display of want and sort of takes over from there. This seems to be more in the case of sexuality, though.
    @consentingadult I have spoken to a good many ILI's online. We get along very well, but of course I was interested more so in how a daily life relationship would go since I know none in person.
    Sociotype: EIE
    Psyche Yoga: VEFL
    ~~
    Goddess Archetype: Artemis
    Zodiac: Taurus()
    Scorpio() Capricorn (☾)
    Slytherin/Horned Serpent
    Chaotic Good

  13. #13
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    860
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I'm really, really curious to know what an SEE's and ILI's duality looks like in a romantic relationship. What's it like?
    SheWolf, there is an SEE female named HotSauce who posted here a few times recently regarding her relationship with her ILI BF. You could look for those posts, or try PM'ing her.

    Beyond that, I have no experience with SEE-ILI duality. I know only one SEE (married to an IEI) and several ILI's, none of whom are dualized. Three of the four ILI's are not married or in relationships, but have been in relationships which failed before. I watched a couple fail. The ILI distances himself from his partner, and the partner gives up. The fourth ILI is married to an ESI.

    My guess is that @consentingadult's link http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya should give you some hints as to how the SEE-ILI relationship would go.

  14. #14
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,280
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ILI are tiny dictators. I don't think you're going to find a submissive person in them. They know how to shuffle people around and arrange things to their liking and they know how to stand up for themselves.
    that was probably why i didn't like the demanding or yes better pushy way they sometimes have. but it was just a minor thing.

  15. #15
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,280
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    [QUOTE=SheWolf;1137022]Well, aren't ILI's and LIE's pseudo-aggressors?

    I saw them once described as the aggressor (especially if female) is more "enticing" and indirectly aggressive and the pseudo-agressor victim perceives this obvious display of want and sort of takes over from there. This seems to be more in the case of sexuality, though.


    Well usually only the irrational functions (NiNeSiSe) are used to described agressor/victim/caregiver/infantile modes,
    but i've also seen the rational functions being used to describe the 4 modes, and there the Te would stand for agressor. So ILI would be mainly victim (Ni), but also agressor (Te). And the SEE mainly agressor (Se) and secondary victim (Fi)

  16. #16
    Raison d'ętre Within's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Terra Incognita
    TIM
    Ni-ILI 584 sx/sp
    Posts
    404
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Have you actually had close interactions with ILIs? If not, that might explain why you still believe this.

    I have an ILI sister-in-law of whom everyone denies my statement that she likes to be spanked. She herself would probably deny that too. Someday her SEE-prince will come and she will learn something totally unexpected about herself ;-)

    Subjugation is at the core of ILI's Se-dual seeking function. An ILI who, in a close relationship, is not subject to subjugation, might actually provoke you to do so. It's the way ILIs feel they are cared about. Stratiyevskaya described this quite nicely:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

    Often when I run into an ILI I feel the angry inclination to beat the shit out of them. Which in fact means it is what they want, or else I wouldn't feel it.
    Did you cum to this realization reading some perverted Hannibal Lecter fanfiction story while touching yourself in naughty places?
    You and I have an appointment at the end of the world.



  17. #17
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    SheWolf, there is an SEE female named HotSauce who posted here a few times recently regarding her relationship with her ILI BF. You could look for those posts, or try PM'ing her.

    Beyond that, I have no experience with SEE-ILI duality. I know only one SEE (married to an IEI) and several ILI's, none of whom are dualized. Three of the four ILI's are not married or in relationships, but have been in relationships which failed before. I watched a couple fail. The ILI distances himself from his partner, and the partner gives up. The fourth ILI is married to an ESI.

    My guess is that @consentingadult's link http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya should give you some hints as to how the SEE-ILI relationship would go.
    This genuinely makes me wonder if I lean ESI...

    The example that was given between those two fictional characters is where I think so. I don't often fit the "relentless" persistence that comes with Se-dom. In fact, I've professed my passion before and have been rejected, in which point I just give up. I was then reminded, after the hurt of course, of my own ethical principles.

    Over time, Dreiser starts to sober up from the "cooling" effect of his activity partner and his ever-increasing resistance. Unlike ILI's dual, the SEE, Dreiser doesn't continuously attempt to overcome this resistance, which is somewhat disappointing to his activity partner. It is at this point that Dreiser remembers about his "program" ethical function and all of his ethical principles that he tries to adhere to. He analyzes the "excesses" of his behavior and starts to regret his transgressions and impositions. Then, he distances from Balzac.
    Though, it could be phobic 6. Hm.
    Last edited by Gypsy; 06-13-2016 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Added excerpt
    Sociotype: EIE
    Psyche Yoga: VEFL
    ~~
    Goddess Archetype: Artemis
    Zodiac: Taurus()
    Scorpio() Capricorn (☾)
    Slytherin/Horned Serpent
    Chaotic Good

  18. #18
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,776
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    This genuinely makes me wonder if I lean ESI...
    It should not be that difficult, but talking to ILIs online isn't really 'short psychological distance', especially for Fi ego types, that need to be in other people's physical presence to be able to make an 'intuďtive' judgement. But once you meet ILIs irl, the dynamics will demonstrate themselves soon enough. An ESI will most likely not only be highly angered by ILIs perceived passive/aggresiveness, but also by their own 'cruel' behavior: when closely interacting with ILIs, ESIs might transgress their own well-defined boundaries, and they will actually start feeling bad about themselves. No such thing happens with SEEs: it's not that they can deal with being 'cruel' better, but in the interactions with their dual, the passive-aggressiveness is actually reduced from the outset. An SEE doesn't have to do anything out of the ordinary to accomplish that.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  19. #19
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    It should not be that difficult, but talking to ILIs online isn't really 'short psychological distance', especially for Fi ego types, that need to be in other people's physical presence to be able to make an 'intuďtive' judgement. But once you meet ILIs irl, the dynamics will demonstrate themselves soon enough. An ESI will most likely not only be highly angered by ILIs perceived passive/aggresiveness, but also by their own 'cruel' behavior: when closely interacting with ILIs, ESIs might transgress their own well-defined boundaries, and they will actually start feeling bad about themselves. No such thing happens with SEEs: it's not that they can deal with being 'cruel' better, but in the interactions with their dual, the passive-aggressiveness is actually reduced from the outset. An SEE doesn't have to do anything out of the ordinary to accomplish that.
    Makes sense. In the article, the ILI's "building of barriers" suddenly expecting the other person to just bust through them would likely be met with offense by me and I would probably "cut them off," if you will. Would be like they're toying with me or something. I don't deal with that crap. Lol.
    Sociotype: EIE
    Psyche Yoga: VEFL
    ~~
    Goddess Archetype: Artemis
    Zodiac: Taurus()
    Scorpio() Capricorn (☾)
    Slytherin/Horned Serpent
    Chaotic Good

  20. #20
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,988
    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i think the ILI builds barriers more out of fear... not out of an attempt to toy with someone. once someone is too close it causes fear and the retreat back into one's inner world for safety out of fear of not being able to handle it or fear of invasion... the particular fears may depend on the person.

    i thought beta was more the quadra that wants to set up the deliberate gauntlet test or whatever: prove you can break through my barriers to show you are worthy.

    (and of course, some people do deliberately toy with others, regardless of quadra)

  21. #21
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,776
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Makes sense. In the article, the ILI's "building of barriers" suddenly expecting the other person to just bust through them would likely be met with offense by me and I would probably "cut them off," if you will. Would be like they're toying with me or something. I don't deal with that crap. Lol.
    I'm not ESI myself, but my experiences with ILIs are very similar nonetheless. One thing though, I do not consider ILIs behavior as 'building barriers', although I can imagine Se-ego types would feel it that way. To me it feels like the don't practice what they preach. E.g. I once was in a relationship with an ILI woman, an she always came far too late on appointments we made, appointments to which she proposed the time! To me this felt like she actually wasn't all that interested in me, although she probably made herself belief she really was (being very desperate to become a mother, that is). The result was the same: I basically slammed the door in her face each time she would try rekindle the fire. The last thing I heard from her was an email message saying she was moving out of town, so I no longer needed to be afraid of running into to her in town (which probably was another way of saying: "but you can still have me if you want to")
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  22. #22
    Later, Trolls Gypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    The Shadows
    TIM
    EIE 2w3 So/Sx
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i think the ILI builds barriers more out of fear... not out of an attempt to toy with someone. once someone is too close it causes fear and the retreat back into one's inner world for safety out of fear of not being able to handle it or fear of invasion... the particular fears may depend on the person.

    i thought beta was more the quadra that wants to set up the deliberate gauntlet test or whatever: prove you can break through my barriers to show you are worthy.

    (and of course, some people do deliberately toy with others, regardless of quadra)
    Yeah, I think that Se and Ti are the real "aggressors" and Ni and Fe the real "Victims."

    Regardless, I don't know how well I could deal with someone suddenly turning the cold shoulder to me no matter the reason.
    Sociotype: EIE
    Psyche Yoga: VEFL
    ~~
    Goddess Archetype: Artemis
    Zodiac: Taurus()
    Scorpio() Capricorn (☾)
    Slytherin/Horned Serpent
    Chaotic Good

  23. #23
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Yeah, I think that Se and Ti are the real "aggressors" and Ni and Fe the real "Victims."

    Regardless, I don't know how well I could deal with someone suddenly turning the cold shoulder to me no matter the reason.
    I just don't think that ILI do that. They like diplomacy and political approach
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  24. #24
    Contra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    TIM
    ILI-Ni
    Posts
    1,407
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't know what your type is, but beyond some very very general statements, most of this romantic-behavioral stuff is bullshit and these broad, sweeping statements can't be made. I don't think you're getting that great of advice. I'm ILI, and i've been able to get along great with female ESIs, SEEs, IEIs, EIIs, IEEs, LIEs, ILIs, SLEs, LSIs, and even EIEs. There have been bad cases of every one of these types as well. The difference is in the highs and in some cases the consistency (e.g. i get along with ESIs fairly consistently).

  25. #25
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,776
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    I don't know what your type is, but beyond some very very general statements, most of this romantic-behavioral stuff is bullshit and these broad, sweeping statements can't be made. I don't think you're getting that great of advice. I'm ILI, and i've been able to get along great with female ESIs, SEEs, IEIs, EIIs, IEEs, LIEs, ILIs, SLEs, LSIs, and even EIEs. There have been bad cases of every one of these types as well. The difference is in the highs and in some cases the consistency (e.g. i get along with ESIs fairly consistently).
    We are talking about close psychological distance here, or aren't we? I get along fine with many types just as well, even with LSIs at times. Problems, to varying degrees, start when close interaction is required, e.g. at work. I personally get along great with LSEs on the friendship level, but things are starting to fall apart once we have to work together on achieving some goals. Likewise, ILIs a great friends for intellectual conversation, but once I start to work with them, I'm often inclined to give them the proverbial kick in the butt in order to get them on the right track or make them toe the line.

    The closer the distance, or dependency if you will, the more likely interpersonal dynamics are going to rear their ugly heads. I do however, think there are people who express their type in a mild fashion, and others who express it very strongly, and obvious that highly influences such dynamics.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,165
    Mentioned
    246 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I'm really, really curious to know what an SEE's and ILI's duality looks like in a romantic relationship. What's it like?
    duality is like friendship. people like to do different things together, support and inspire each other
    Specifics for concrete types are in their weak/strong valued functions, what may be imagined by types descriptions.
    There is the thread with duals examples. Check videos, photos, biographies, etc of them in the Internet.

  27. #27
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    duality is like friendship. people like to do different things together, support and inspire each other
    Specifics for concrete types are in their weak/strong valued functions, what may be imagined by types descriptions.
    There is the thread with duals examples. Check videos, photos, biographies, etc of them in the Internet.
    How about hurting each other because some people don't know how to type...is that there too?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,165
    Mentioned
    246 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    How about hurting each other because some people don't know how to type...is that there too?
    It's outside of the theme of this thread.

  29. #29
    Contra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    TIM
    ILI-Ni
    Posts
    1,407
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    We are talking about close psychological distance here, or aren't we? I get along fine with many types just as well, even with LSIs at times. Problems, to varying degrees, start when close interaction is required, e.g. at work. I personally get along great with LSEs on the friendship level, but things are starting to fall apart once we have to work together on achieving some goals. Likewise, ILIs a great friends for intellectual conversation, but once I start to work with them, I'm often inclined to give them the proverbial kick in the butt in order to get them on the right track or make them toe the line.

    The closer the distance, or dependency if you will, the more likely interpersonal dynamics are going to rear their ugly heads. I do however, think there are people who express their type in a mild fashion, and others who express it very strongly, and obvious that highly influences such dynamics.
    I'm pretty much talking about friendship in the psych distance of the examples i've given. So probably closer in distance than you are thinking but not necessarily a relationship. I believe whether i can have a romantic relationship with people of these types needs to be considered on a person to person basis because some are more accepting of my personality than others, and, in those cases, type plays less of a role than one might expect. Anyone can be flexible or make sacrifices, and, just as an example, in many cases i can see getting along better with ESIs than SEEs.

    Even if you can make the case that certain common dynamics arise when you get closer to someone, my experience doesn't match yours. I don't want anyone telling me what to do or regulating my behavior. I don't feel a need for submission or subjugation. If anything i tend to regulate my partner a bit. I will say that i really don't care what activities i'm involved in on a day to day basis so long as i like who i'm with so my partner could essentially figure this part out for me (unless they like sitting at home and talking about arcane theories and ideas, but even i wouldn't want that). I'm flexible externally but not internally (internally meaning my beliefs, values, ideas). I'm not passive aggressive at all. If anything i force communication out in the open, and, in my experience, SEEs are typically the ones who will hide or bury the issue.

    I don't really build barriers either. I may make it hard to get my attention at first but often times this is just because I'm not initially that interested or at the least i'm uncertain. Once I've decided on a person, I make it extremely straightforward and pretty much respond to all cues, and i can be fairly aggressive under the knowledge that the person I'm pursuing is interested. If the other person doesn't like that then it probably won't work.

    Anyway, i think you get the point. I don't doubt that this behavior changes across gender, but I really don't think you can apply these specific behaviors to every ILI. I've met ILIs more aggressive than me and ILIs who were less aggressive. I don't see submission as a common theme though their willingness to go along with what their partner wants to do may foster this perception.

  30. #30
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    TIM
    ESI-Se 6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,255
    Mentioned
    139 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just watched show on Hulu "You're the Worst."

    Tis ILI guy with SEE female.

  31. #31
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,280
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ILI are tiny dictators. I don't think you're going to find a submissive person in them. They know how to shuffle people around and arrange things to their liking and they know how to stand up for themselves.
    yes i like this description Maritsa!

    i also somewhere read that victims were called, the resistance. Sounds good. I've noticed i'm usually the first to get up and say fuck you, when a boss gives an unreasonable order.

  32. #32
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    860
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    yes i like this description Maritsa!

    i also somewhere read that victims were called, the resistance. Sounds good. I've noticed i'm usually the first to get up and say fuck you, when a boss gives an unreasonable order.
    I've seen this before, many times. I always thought it was because ILI's are asocial bastards who don't give a fuck.

    And yet, they are also very smart and rational, so it usually pays to listen to them when they are getting in your face.

  33. #33
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,280
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I always thought it was because ILI's are asocial bastards who don't give a fuck.
    lol keep thinking that :-)

    ili's see flaws and when they noticed them, they won't back down. a good combo i think.

    i don't think ili's are asocial at a macro level but at a microlevel yeah, they don't care if they need to hurt a feeling here and there, but they keep in mind what the best route is for the group, colleagues or whole society. if you got to piss of a certain individual to reach the best destination for the rest, it's all worth it!

    Actually i think ILI's might be the most social on a macro level. I have for example marx, who felt sorry for all the people who had to work 12 hours a day, it was a great emphaty towards the destination of humanity. Maybe you can see the ILI's in a better light this way Adam :-)

  34. #34
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    860
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    lol keep thinking that :-)

    ili's see flaws and when they noticed them, they won't back down. a good combo i think.

    i don't think ili's are asocial at a macro level but at a microlevel yeah, they don't care if they need to hurt a feeling here and there, but they keep in mind what the best route is for the group, colleagues or whole society. if you got to piss of a certain individual to reach the best destination for the rest, it's all worth it!
    I do agree with this. I actually do it, too (head straight for a problem, that is), and for the same reason, which is to reach the best destination for the group (great, great description, by the way) but perhaps I do it with slightly more diplomacy. My impression is that ILI's don't seem to care that much about how they are seen. I find that pissing people off tends to burn bridges and makes it harder to influence them in the future. An ILI who is too contentious can get assigned to a position and can get stuck there, because of a perceived lack of adaptability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Actually i think ILI's might be the most social on a macro level. I have for example marx, who felt sorry for all the people who had to work 12 hours a day, it was a great emphaty towards the destination of humanity. Maybe you can see the ILI's in a better light this way Adam :-)
    I don't see ILI's in a bad light. They are a type with which I form almost instant, very valued friendships. One of my oldest friends (since I was 12) is ILI, and so is my financial advisor. They are very rational, very dependable, usually very intelligent, can be extremely funny, and while they can be a total dick to you (usually at first meeting), I was surprised to find that they have stronger Fi than I do, and are therefore better at valuing people than I am.

    My comment about ILI's being "asocial bastards who don't give a fuck" was actually a description of how I believe they are seen by the general population. Add rational introvert to the description, and you get the full snapshot*, but not an in-depth analysis. For the latter, it is just better to hang out with them.


    * This is why I believe, in literature and the movies, that ILI's are most often portrayed as Villains Who Will Personally Fuck You Up, while LIE's are typically portrayed as Villains Who Will Fuck Everything Up, As Far As The Eye Can See.

  35. #35
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    398
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Adam Strange I think it's because we can be cold and rational in regards to human life... but that motivating function for ILI's denies us from fully embracing our own innate immorality. ILI does feel for others despite any lack of outward evidence towards that fact. We'll bash on the homeless as we intentionally drop a few bucks worth of coins near the hobo with the most entertaining begging sign. After all, I see being a beggar as being an entertainer over a leech. Go for the "muh children" angle and I view you with disdain. Go for an "honesty" or "entertainment" angle and I will risk being run over by dumbassess to give ya money.

    Everyone serves a purpose. Don't play towards sorrow, play towards entertainment. You'll get way more donations. The hobo with a skill for an instrument got by for good reason. Entertain the selfish morons, that's how you get some real money flowing in!
    Last edited by End; 06-21-2016 at 06:23 AM.

  36. #36
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Willful antagonism in ILI-SEE dyad is a kind of "pre-marital ritual", whose traditions date back to the days of militant matriarchal nomadic communities. The precedence in such communities was given to the females, and only in rare cases gender equality was upheld, which was perfectly consistent with the "militant" and "contentious" spirit of gamma quadra – quadra of democratic and warlike "nomads", where a woman could be endowed with the same rights as a man. Many ancient myths and legends contain references to "female warriors" who choose their husbands through matches with potential competitors.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  37. #37
    per aspera ad astra Chae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    IEE-Fi 3w4 SX/SP
    Posts
    1,073
    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    SEE/ILI is about solving each other's problems.


    • SEE instills drive+passion in the ILI who lacks force and an emotional perception of the people around them.
    • ILI instills foresight+prudence in the SEE who lacks lateral thinking and a coherent voice of reason.


    = Balzac thinks multiple steps ahead while Caesar regulates the moment.

    Love means letting go of ego (me --> we) and in the context of SEE-ILI, mutual life improvement happens when they start to replace their own needs with the ones of their partner. Which happens by default because each lacks what the other just loves to provide.

    LIE-ESI duality follows the same principle: conjoint enhancement.

    There's also a lot of appreciation going on. SEE shows that they like a constant challenge and strategical advice/data, ILI shows that they like the volitional pressure and countless charms.

    The latter is quite a miracle, which astounds SEE who has observed the aloof ILI. SEE finds pleasure in finding those lovely soft spots - and without even trying to be someone different (SEE has many social masks), they strike a chord in ILI. ILI, in turn, has figured out SEE's behavioral struggle long ago and adores it when they show their authentic self. ILI finally lightens up, SEE can finally tone it down, both don't have to fear judgment. That's why duality carries the label of "it's so easy to be around them". Complementation > completion. A beneficial equilibrium of previous excessive individualism/distance (ILI) and excessive attachment/infatuation (SEE) ensues. ERGO: Fear of intimacy and fear of being alone are resolved. Both slowly bring out their partner's painful issues & show them that all worries were unfounded.

    Example: A date. Not the first one, but let's say, in a more advanced state of their relationship. Now, here we go:

    1) ILI comes up with an idea (best available location/activity/budget/point in time...) and then prepares everything, mostly in their head or verbally in exchange with SEE. The Ni-brain automatically imagines how /any/ scenario would turn out, even disturbing ones because this is a complex world, and then uses Te to formulate "in-case-of-x-plans". Fi is working overtime because it sees a chance to show its love, which results in overly perfectionistic tendencies. ILI prefers to spend their already low emotional energy on one person only so they will be 100% focused. They tend to be sacrificial in that regard but hide it. Lots of effort and tunnel vision-like overthinking takes place.

    2) SEE is responsible for the implementations & spontaneous actions, maneuvering of all sorts, lifting the mood energetically, making the date unforgettable. They are insecure about all the tiny details so they accept all advice, sometimes grumpily (ILI thinks that it's cute, and giggles as they have foreseen it, too). On the other hand, taking care of their Dual's hidden anxiety (they can feel and see it, no matter how pokerfaced ILI is) and often pedantic-paranoid failure scenarios makes them feel good. SEE loves being able to make positive changes in others. Converting a particularly misanthropic ILI would be their masterpiece. Meaning, they diffuse all problems that are none. If something "disturbing" does happen, SEE is more than happy to save the day, being especially proud because `their´ ILI predicted everything and informed them. "How shrewd my partner is... and they only look at me... only I can make them act like this". Se lends resoluteness/decisive attitude, Fi the right way to deal with ILI's difficult emotions, Te the need to be competent in following the Ni-masterplan(s).


    Something else in response to some other posts: It's not that ILI is SEE's victim, it's more about reciprocal & subtextual teasing because they see their partner's very opposite weaknesses, things that they have mastered brilliantly themselves. That's why outsiders say that they seem so unlikely to be a couple at first. Even the dual partners are surprised that they flow so naturally. Victim-aggressor attitudes say more about initiative, which both provide in their own way: ILI - mentally / SEE - physically, as seen in the example.

    Long story short, I found this nice cartoon that pretty much sums it up:

    Last edited by Chae; 07-23-2016 at 03:57 PM.

  38. #38
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    327
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think it is valued to mention that ILI do a lot of Ti stuff which help the SEE to deal with that area of their life which they mostly avoided and covered up. Same would be for SEE Fe.


  39. #39
    per aspera ad astra Chae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    IEE-Fi 3w4 SX/SP
    Posts
    1,073
    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I think it is valued to mention that ILI do a lot of Ti stuff which help the SEE to deal with that area of their life which they mostly avoided and covered up. Same would be for SEE Fe.
    Yes, that's why subtypes are important. ILI-Te needs more help with Fe, that's why SEE-Fi is their preferred match as ethical functions are emphasized and vice versa, same goes for Ni and Se subtypes. SEE-Fi, for instance, can get almost ESI-ish in my ILI-Ni presence, and our thinking functions don't balance the interaction. SEE-Se, however, is just...

  40. #40
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,294
    Mentioned
    489 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Yes, that's why subtypes are important. ILI-Te needs more help with Fe, that's why SEE-Fi is their preferred match as ethical functions are emphasized and vice versa, same goes for Ni and Se subtypes. SEE-Fi, for instance, can get almost ESI-ish in my ILI-Ni presence, and our thinking functions don't balance the interaction. SEE-Se, however, is just...
    So LSE si needs and EII Ne? hum. I do well with the Te subtypes that are more decisive about their physical sensations and know what to eat, what's healthy without being too much like babies about it.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •