Instincts. What are they? All ideas and questions about Instincts Welcome.

[Volcana]

There is a lot of debate about what instincts, and stackings, actually mean.

For instance some people would say Sp means managing your finances and health, but some people who overeat or overspend are Sp-firsts who are unhealthy and triggered in that area. Others would say Sp is about personal fortitude, self-possession, knowing when to shut up, etc.

Some would say "Sx" is about being horny, lonely, or wanting so desperately to find The One. To that I'd say, I know Sx-lasts who are plenty lonely and horny - and doesn't everyone want to meet "The One?"

Some would say "Soc" is about group participation, or can manifest as extreme antisocial sentiments. Others would say it's about a wider awareness of world affairs. Others would say it's about contemplating one's role in the group, but it doesn't have to be about socializing, or even wanting to socialize.


So, what in the hell are these things?

And what about the stackings? What do they look like in the last and middle position?

I made this thread to exchange ideas and vent thoughts. I want to hear thoughts also from people who aren't sure, or are still thinking about it; just as much as people who have firm ideas. I have read all the basics and books by most of the enneagram authors; I've read the typical explanations a thousand times. I am interested in what doesn't sit right FOR YOU, and your own experience, and things that confuse you, as well as themes you have noticed which don't match the "more normal" interpretation, and comparisons between the literature and what you feel is accurate.

I had a bunch of my own thoughts but I keep overriding them with better concepts and now I'm just confused.

So I'd rather open this up to anyone who is confused OR has input. Also feel free to be self-referential - discuss why you type your instincts the way you do, and what might be tentative about your typing, if anything.



Feel free to use other forum members as examples or mention why they type someone at a certain instinct. I am giving my consent for anyone to type me at any instinct or stacking, if you know me. I'm "Animal" from Perc & Typoc. I may start posting here more. (And I am very displeased that another @Animal stole my name here. RAWR! >:[ )

[lemontrees]

Sx-last's idea of "the one" might be different, maybe someone who would give them ample space and more like loyalty or calm support.

I do know Sx-lasts who want to find "the one". I've noticed that dating either falls last on their schedule, despite the laments, or they do date but make decisions that non-sx lasts wouldn't make. I.e. One friend would always look uncomfortable if I asked her if she "really liked" anyone, she seemed to judge basically based on looks and loyalty, but unfortunately without having a great compatibility antenna relationships would fall through. Another was a gay woman but dated a straight man b/c she felt a friend connection. A third sees relationships as unfairly monopolizing time that you could instead spend meeting many new people.

[anndelise]

I'm far from knowledgeable in enneagram, i'm always questioning parts of it. So take my idea with a huge grain of salt.
In regards to stackings, I've assumed it's like the rest of the enneagram in terms of what a person is most obsessed/neurotic about.

Sx would be like constantly finding something/someone that you connect to, whether that be pursuing a hobby/interest even at the cost of the other two instincts, pursuing connection with another person or an ideal, or even 'advertising' oneself to see who might connect with the part of you that you advertised.

Sp would be like constantly solving survival related problems, whether that be building one's nest, fluffing one's nest, or abiding by one's impulses to consume or protect. A proactive person might save for the future, build up their nest and employ safety measures just in case. A more reactive person might stress eat or shop, and are more likely to overspend due to trying to deal with reactive moods. An aesthetics focused person might decorate their nest, a family oriented person might insist on good food and family meal times, to help make sure their loved ones and offspring are well-fed. Etc.

I can't describe SO as I'm pretty sure I'm last on that. An Fe valuing person might fit the social groups and social atmosphere descriptors of SO, while an Fi valuing person might fit the social justice warrior type descriptions. The areas commonly described for SO aren't things I tend to think/worry about. They aren't that important to me. About the closest I get to SO area stuff is that I do sometimes stand up for some social justice type things (related to not setting laws to oppress peoples), and a come-and-go desire to practice land-stewardship in a way that improves the land and leaves something benificial to future generations. OH, and supporting Bernie Sanders and other progressives/liberals in their efforts to increase minimum wage to a living wage, free college (with hopes that will also change how important/necessary college education is), no fracking and other such environmentally damaging activities, and universal health care.

For myself, sx and sp related stuff are constantly at odds. They,re the kinds of things I both obsess over, even to a detriment, and am most neurotic about when not fulfilling the instinct. They're what I have the most urges to do and to deal with. When I'm doing things related to one, I feel guilt and agitation for not doing the other, and vice versa. And, it seems that even a large part of what may relate to my SO instinct is merely an extension of my SP/SX instincts.


Anyways, good luck with this thread.

[Olimpia]

In regards to stackings, I've assumed it's like the rest of the enneagram in terms of what a person is most obsessed/neurotic about.

Exactly. The instincts are about what drives you internally. It is a subset of motivation, which is also described by your Enneagram type, but it goes "much more deeper" than that – it goes to your instinctual nature.

You are obsessed/neurotic about certain instincts because you feel they are tied to your survival. That is why you become neurotic or really stressed out when your main instinct does not work for you – on a deep level, you feel like it threatens your well-being, your ability to survive. SX first deems close connection(s) (usually to a mate) to be the core of what makes them survive; for SP first people it is more self-directed and the "literal" fulfillment of survival as we know it, in terms of food, nesting, and so forth; for SO first people, they believe that they will survive if they are a part of a larger whole, of a group, accepted and integrated into society or special groups of their choosing. I said "believe", but it is much more unconscious and instinctual than that. (And no, you cannot change your instinctual stacking – your instincts cannot change. Temporarily paying attention to one instinct over another does not mean you have changed your nature, it simply means you are temporarily focusing on it. For example, all people will move to SP when they are starving, etc. That does not mean they are actually SP first.)

Both SX and SO see their survival tied to other people, in that way they are dependent on them – that is why SP blindspot people can hardly function without any connection to the outside world (without becoming severely depressed; in the Western world you can very well survive even when your SP instinct "sucks" and you have no friends/significant other, but you will still feel a lack of inner security and fulfillment).

The stacking that is the least in need of other people for their survival's sake would be SP/SX. SP first is tied to what I'd call self-directed self-care which does not require outside help; the secondary SX might be drawn to finding a partner, but the person could channel this desire into special interests and hobbies instead. That's how SP/SX can be the typical "loner" stacking quite easily, and without much negative thoughts surrounding such a lifestyle. It can come natural to them. Having said that, most of them do like to find a partner and get their SX needs met this way. Being SO/SX, feeling like a "loner" through and through, with no ability to bond or be part of some group, can actually make me feel dead inside. I would imagine the same applying to many SX/SO people.

It is a mistake to assume SX blindspot people do not want to be in romantic relationships (nor is it true that SO blindspot people never want to be around other people and have social contact).

We all share all instinctual drives, to varying degrees – and that is where the stacking order comes in.

SX blindspot people commonly do want to be in a relationship (because they are human), but they have way less desire for close, deep (romantic) intimacy and a "merging of souls". They are fine with "just" having a partner, even being married to them, and to rather focus on things surrounding/outside the relationship.

If you are trying to type your own stacking, determine which instincts you are the most concerned with/neurotic about/ obsessed with/ etc.
I usually ask the question: "What is the instinct you'd feel the most distressed about if it went wrong?" This is how you can usually tell what your main instinct is.
The blindspot/last instinct is the one you care about the least on a personal level. Let's say, you answered the previous question with "close connections/intimate romantic relationships etc... -> SX". And the instinct you care the least about, in the light of the question, is SP. That would mean you are SX/SO.
(You could also just order the instincts from high to low personal relevance.)

[Volcana]

My Sx-first is obvious. I can share some posts from another forum to explain this - but basically, I'm just curious how people experience the other instincts and also how people who aren't 4s experience Sx. I'm also not sure about my second stack. I have studied enneagram for several years, so this is not coming from a place of ignorance or being a 'n00b' but rather, realizing that while I understand the principles of each type, I have a lot of trouble grasping how instincts *actually manifest* in people, even if I understand the concepts behind them.

[Muddy]

In my view it isn't that Sx-last lack any kind of intimate drive but rather that tend to carry more shallow, conventional ways of going about intimacy and relationships in the eyes of those with a higher Sx-instinct. Sp/so for example is perhaps the most likely stacking to marry for pragmatic reasons rather then love. I would argue Sx-last types are also perhaps the most willing to be directed into pre-arranged marriages with a partner they don't really love for the sake of pleasing family, which would be completely unacceptable to Sx types.

[flames]

My Sx-first is obvious. I can share some posts from another forum to explain this - but basically, I'm just curious how people experience the other instincts and also how people who aren't 4s experience Sx. I'm also not sure about my second stack. I have studied enneagram for several years, so this is not coming from a place of ignorance or being a 'n00b' but rather, realizing that while I understand the principles of each type, I have a lot of trouble grasping how instincts *actually manifest* in people, even if I understand the concepts behind them.

Good thread, I'll be back with how I experience Sx later.

[squark]

I'm not sure what I think about sp, or where it belongs in my stacking. I have no trouble with taking care of stuff like eating and health and paying bills and whatnot, and none of those things stress me. If I lost all my possesions in a fire or flood or something, I don't think it'd be all that horrible. I'd regret losing pictures of and letters from family and friends but everything else is replacable and no big deal. Is the fact that I plan my expenses and keep a budget, and manage health and fitness enough to say that sp isn't my blindspot? Several people have told me that my physical risk-taking makes them fear for me, and that I lack self-preservation in that area - telling them that it's under control and the risks aren't that big and my life was never in quite as much danger as they thought doesn't seem to change their minds. I don't gamble with money (or rather the few times that I have, I walked away when ahead rather than taking big risks and losing) and although some people say that I gamble with my life - I disagree. I become frustrated with people who will take no risks at all, who are particularly cautious, are too focused on material gain as though that matters, who won't experience things,the sort of people who stay inside during rainstorms, can't get their feet wet or hands dirty, who won't strike out on their own, or travel or do anything outside a narrow comfort zone, but every once in awhile I'm that person too. Every once in awhile I don't do something out of fear or some other silly reason, and then when I catch this in myself I see it as cowardice, and that's just not acceptable, which means that sometimes I do things just because they scare me. So, I'm not real sure where to place sp. I don't see it as important, and yet I take care of it anyway. It doesn't cause me stress in any way, but I don't think I greatly risk it (regardless of what other people say.) I'm very conscientious and responsible, but I'm not super sure of how I relate to what sp is. I don't think it's my blind spot, but it's not my lead either.

I've talked about sx quite a few times already, so don't really feel the need to again. I have little doubt that it is first in my stacking.

Social is another that I am not so solid on. As a kid, there's family, and that's a built in social structure where I knew where I belonged and how I fit. When I left home, still just a teenager was when I began making friends and spending more time with them, and when I've spent periods of time purposely isolating myself from people, the isolation I feel is often surprising. The way I feel when I am included and a part of something vs. when I am left out or forgotten in a group makes me think that this is more important to me than I like to admit. But I think it's more that individuals want to include me and are paying attention to me that is the real difference, and it's more sx than so related in the end. Taking part in anything is empty without personal connection. I think of so like being famous or something. I don't care about being known by the world at large, or an impersonal sort of admiration and respect. I want the personal, the intimate, the singular desire and focus. I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what social entails however. I am probably mixing ideas as far as it is concerned.

[Jeremy8419]

So = Focused towards providing to society

Sp = Focused on covering your bases

Sx = Focused on companionship

You can multiply it by your Core Type (or MBTI even), such that a 6 Sp is a 6 to cover their bases, a 3 So is a 3 for others, and an 8 So wants a companion to be their 8. Etc.

[Volcana]

Good thread, I'll be back with how I experience Sx later.

Cool. I might as well share my post about Sx from another forum. I was responding to the sentiment that if you're neurotic you might come to hate your first instinct....

_____

THIS IS ABSOLUTE GOLD!

I have felt this way for a while but didn't have the words to express it.
Everyone and their mother tells me I'm Sx first, and it is quite obvious that I am. But then I see people writing about how much they want relationships and want sex and how lonely they are and how their Sx isn't fulfilled, blabla. Thus they type at Sx first. I absolutely do not see those people as Sx first. I also don't see Sx first in people who throw their whole lives away for a relationship, and go from one relationship to the next and "give it their all." Those are usually Sx seconds.

In my experience, as an Sx dom... well first of all, Sp4 descriptions are spot-on for me; it's what I wear on my sleeve. (I am questioning my second instinct but I'll get to that later.) I have issues about it "missing" or being idealized, but I also embody it in some ways. As for social it's easy for me; a non issue. However when it comes to dating and sex, oh boy. My history is quite complex. I have had a lot of long obsessions that I wrote books about, but couldn't confess, and acted like I didn't care. I've had short relationships in which I focused on power and domination. I have a reputation preceding me in my hometown and in college (I never even hooked up with anyone at that college!) as being a heart-breaker, seducer etc. I've had several men do things like write albums about me , get tattoos of my shitty artwork, I've had more than 10 marriage proposals in my 20s... I was "the one who got away" to so many people... and I never pretended to be otherwise. I slapped men for saying they loved me; for wasting the precious concept of love on a creature like me. I slapped men for trying to save me; how dare they suggest they can even SEE ME for who I am, let alone save me. I kicked men out after I fucked them and slept next to no one, until my close friend - who I never hooked up with - convinced me to sleep next to him so he could "Warm me up." He's So/Sx. I made a show of being cold-hearted and in many ways, I was.

This resulted after I had lost everything- my voice, my passion, and my first love. I hated Sx more than anything (without knowing enneagram) .. I wanted to find my passion & purpose in life, and tripped alone on LSD and ran experiments on my mind to figure out what it was and who I was and how to get back the emotions and innocence I lost (if I ever had it)... I was an animal and a symbol of my lost humanity. But I was not impulsive, reckless or anything.. these trips were alone, in safe places, etc, and I never felt a need to party socially or prove anything, though people in my college & hometown have called me a "legend" probably due to how fucking weird I am and how I would dress. But, I was never in long relationships. I was hateful toward men I wanted, and I sought to conquer or be conquered. Surrender was not something I could imagine myself doing. Then I fucked myself over when I tried to conquer someone who was able to twist my heart into pieces in his sleep. He consumed me; showed me I could obsess and care again, and yet I'd lost the capacity and I turned it into a game. Although I could win games, I could not open up. Although he wanted to SEE the real me, I could not show him.

This is when I realized how fucked up I had actually become. I moved away - because that was the only way to avoid "passing by" or showing off how many guys liked me and how much I didn't care about him while he worked in the bar in town - and spent the next six years working my ass off , getting my voice back. This guy was a musician; a symbol of everything I lost when I lost my voice. I wanted to show him I could do it better, deeper and harder than he ever could; even though I spoke in a whisper and was chronically ill. I fronted my own band, recorded my album and handed it to him. He shook and cried; was jealous that I did it first, but also proud of me. VENGEANCE.

It took me more years to find my own tenderness in this area. I've now met my soulmate, and I am so thankful for how much I've worked on myself these past few years because I would hate to have put him through any of this or worse, lost him. I was still fucked up in some ways when we met but he whipped me into shape in the sweetest and most honest way possible. I still can't believe it sometimes when I think about it.

So when people claim to be Sx first because they want to meet their soulmate, care about their ideal lover, want sex all the time or are lonely, I want to punch them in the face kind of, because it undermines my very serious battles here. Of course that is selfish, I have been mistyped several times and it's all part of the process. But I have SUFFERED over this. It has DESTROYED me, and the people around me. I channeled my Sx passion mostly into my music and writing so that I could feel worthy of actual love, or even, so that I could feel seen for who I am at all. I hoped maybe, just maybe, someone would find my music and relate to it, or see my soul in it, and understand. My soulmate did exactly that. I fucking can't believe it and I love him so much. This is beyond Sx. But before him, I resisted relationships so hard it's not even funny; while still being consumed by obsessions for people, and having that as fuel not only to find myself, but to take action. Even with him - I was obsessed and wanted him, but still, he had to crash through these walls before he could get to my heart. His honesty won me over and I could not help but surrender.

[squark]

@Volcano I can relate. I don't feel like saying any more than that right now. Just that I relate to your relationship history, and that sometimes I wish sx was the soft romantic cuddly kind of thing that some people describe rather than this twisted monster that wants to rip me apart from the inside.

[Beautiful sky]

"Wanted to see the real you"

I find this troubling because it suggests you are somewhat of a mystery that is absent in human beings or that you have a special something (an experience, a fear) that somehow is unique. If there is a real someone which you don't reveal to others is there a fake someone?

Sorry. You offer an interesting story that I don't relate to. I'm milder. Does this mean that I'm not sx first or second?

[Beautiful sky]

I am sp first, but sometimes I can be really bad at getting my shit together. Mostly when it comes to taking care of things like paperwork and bills. Every year I seem to get a ticket for having an expired car registration. I also lost my esthetician license because I let that expire. I will pay money to take classes, do well in the class, then drop out suddenly for no reason. I'm really bad at organization and I'm bad at feeding myself. I can be an absolute mess, but I blame a lot of that on my ADD and depression.

you need a great SLE who has the will to take care of uninteresting routine tasks

[Adam Strange]

I am sp first, but sometimes I can be really bad at getting my shit together. Mostly when it comes to taking care of things like paperwork and bills. Every year I seem to get a ticket for having an expired car registration. I also lost my esthetician license because I let that expire. I will pay money to take classes, do well in the class, then drop out suddenly for no reason. I'm really bad at organization and I'm bad at feeding myself. I can be an absolute mess, but I blame a lot of that on my ADD and depression.

@Starfall, WRT your taking classes and dropping them, my IEI cousin can get any job she wants, but she doesn't keep them very long. I don't think it is ADD, I think she just gets bored quickly. After trying many jobs, she is presently dog-sitting for wealthy clients. The dogs love her (when you think about it, dogs are like SLE's in that they just need some love and attention to show their loyalty), and she loves the dogs, and so she is in great demand in a job where she is well-paid, gets to stay in the houses of the well-off, and can set her own hours. She has the keys to their houses when they are away, and can use the pools and all the food in the house.
Just a thought.

[Volcana]

"Wanted to see the real you"

I find this troubling because it suggests you are somewhat of a mystery that is absent in human beings or that you have a special something (an experience, a fear) that somehow is unique. If there is a real someone which you don't reveal to others is there a fake someone?

Sorry. You offer an interesting story that I don't relate to. I'm milder. Does this mean that I'm not sx first or second?

I'm a 4 and was very traumatized at the time. I'm not talking about 4 clinging to negative experiences, I'm talking legitimate trauma. I refused to even call it trauma until recently, but it is. I would not guess that everyone who is Sx first could relate to that sentiment specifically. 4s' lost childhood message is "you are seen for who you are." I want to be seen for who I am, but I feel misinterpreted, or like I can't express myself adequately. I feel like people fall in love with my image - and although my image is as close to authentic as I can get, I would hide the more shameful parts of myself.. my envy, obsessiveness, possessiveness etc- and present it only in the form of music and art... so people would love that glamor - even though the glamourous music revealed my true flaws - but they wouldn't really get that those things I'm singing about are REAL and I'm just too ashamed and don't have the words or the means to be open about them in another context. I'm less traumatized now so I don't feel this as strongly. And I think that is more related to being a 4 (and in trauma) than being sx first. I think most 6s and 8s would relate to it in some way as well, but that might just be the ones I know.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm a 4 and was very traumatized at the time. I'm not talking about 4 clinging to negative experiences, I'm talking legitimate trauma. I refused to even call it trauma until recently, but it is. I would not guess that everyone who is Sx first could relate to that sentiment specifically. 4s' lost childhood message is "you are seen for who you are." I want to be seen for who I am, but I feel misinterpreted, or like I can't express myself adequately. I feel like people fall in love with my image - and although my image is as close to authentic as I can get, I would hide the more shameful parts of myself.. my envy, obsessiveness, possessiveness etc- and present it only in the form of music and art... so people would love that glamor - even though the glamourous music revealed my true flaws - but they wouldn't really get that those things I'm singing about are REAL and I'm just too ashamed and don't have the words or the means to be open about them in another context. I'm less traumatized now so I don't feel this as strongly. And I think that is more related to being a 4 (and in trauma) than being sx first. I think most 6s and 8s would relate to it in some way as well, but that might just be the ones I know.

Okay I see.

Is it because you have violating moral values that you held ideal for others?

[Volcana]

Okay I see.

Is it because you have violating moral values that you held ideal for others?

Not sure what you mean by that?

I'll show you what I wrote on a typing thread years ago. At the time I thought I was a 3 lol, so I kept using the word "success" (I think I really wanted to be a 3) .. but aside from using that word more than I normally would (which is pretty much never), I still agree with what I wrote here, in 2012. The question was about, what drives you in life? What is your purpose? Etc.


On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds.


It doesn't really have to do with morals, it has to do with meaning, with sharing my truth and experience.

[Beautiful sky]

Not sure what you mean by that?

I'll show you what I wrote on a typing thread years ago. At the time I thought I was a 3 lol, so I kept using the word "success" (I think I really wanted to be a 3) .. but aside from using that word more than I normally would (which is pretty much never), I still agree with what I wrote here, in 2012. The question was about, what drives you in life? What is your purpose? Etc.

[I]On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that

On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds.

It doesn't really have to do with morals, it has to do with meaning, with sharing my truth and experience.

What you wrote is honest and I would call it your driving force or ambition.

Every time someone tries to see you for who you are or whatever you run away from that person. Maybe you didn't like them enough in the first place. I do believe that you can't express yourself adequately. This is somewhat apparent but you are honest. You said you are still hiding the shameful parts of yourself. To me it's a lack of acceptance of who you are. I can see this in myself, less so now than when I was a teenager. I think it comes from the lack of fully accepting ourselves as natural beings because of how we are human and view ourselves as humans. "Shameful" doesn't exist with animals

So I see a person who is scared to accept their flaws because it bothers her. But to others, who they are is normal because some people can and do openly express their self as they are not ashamed (maybe embarrassed) of it.

Shameful is a feeling these are from morals. What I meant was did you set a moral value "I will not steal" then stole so that is why you feel guilty?

[MisterNi]

The instincts which are SP, SO, SX are the Core essence of a person's survival instinct. Or three directed evolutionary survival instincts with:

SP being most relate able to those living in the Frost Filled North. Where survival of the fittest in brutally cold Winters and Fair and mild Summers is a must. This Aura is blue in essence.

The next being SO which is open and like a warm Summer's day like those living in the Gold rich Southeastern portion. This Aura is Yellow in essence.

To be punctuated by the desire, lust, envy and coveting nature of those who inhabit the fertile lands in the Southwestern areas. This Aura is Emerald Green in essence.

[lemontrees]

I'm E4 so/sx, and I feel stronger and more self-sufficient when I can maintain long periods without people. I am probably least brave about sp. Not that I'm a princess, but I usually just try to keep myself comfortable.

Does this resonate with anyone else? That the last instinct is the one you take most literally, just try to meet it, don't fight.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm E4 so/sx, and I feel stronger and more self-sufficient when I can maintain long periods without people. I am probably least brave about sp. Not that I'm a princess, but I usually just try to keep myself comfortable.

Does this resonate with anyone else? That the last instinct is the one you take most literally, just try to meet it, don't fight.

can you come and keep me comfortable?

[Volcana]

"Shameful" doesn't exist with animals

This is a drastic misunderstanding of shame. In fact, animals do feel shame all the time. It is a biological imperative.

When a cat is sick, it goes off to the corner to die alone, because of shame. When an elephant is sick, it goes away from the herd to be alone because of shame. And that is a good thing, because it prevents the rest of the herd from becoming sick.

Shame also stops us from doing things that might offset the group. If everyone went around screaming about their sadness, anger and fear all the time, nothing would get done. It keeps us productive, focused on tasks and prevents chaos, because we feel a need to contribute something, to have value.

Shame is as animalistic as fear or anger, and just as necessary for the integrity of a culture, a family, or any group in any species. It is also necessary on a personal level because it gives us the impetus to improve ourselves.

[Olimpia]

This is a drastic misunderstanding of shame. In fact, animals do feel shame all the time. It is a biological imperative.

When a cat is sick, it goes off to the corner to die alone, because of shame. When an elephant is sick, it goes away from the herd to be alone because of shame. And that is a good thing, because it prevents the rest of the herd from becoming sick.

Shame also stops us from doing things that might offset the group. If everyone went around screaming about their sadness, anger and fear all the time, nothing would get done. It keeps us productive, focused on tasks and prevents chaos, because we feel a need to contribute something, to have value.

Shame is as animalistic as fear or anger, and just as necessary for the integrity of a culture, a family, or any group in any species. It is also necessary on a personal level because it gives us the impetus to improve ourselves.

This is a very acute view on (social) shame and social dynamics.
It gives me the impression you could have some SO 4 in you... Maybe you are SX/SO 4?

[Volcana]

This is a very acute view on (social) shame and social dynamics.
It gives me the impression you could have some SO 4 in you... Maybe you are SX/SO 4?

My father actually explained that to me. He is a psychiatrist and a 7w8, sp/sx. I just copied the idea from him. I always related to the cat crawling into the corner by itself, but the herd thing was completely his idea.

That said, I'm undecided between Sx/Sp and Sx/So. Open to all feedback

I do enjoy social commentary.. I love this about Marilyn Manson, who I see as a So/Sp 4. I find him completely brilliant. I write fantasy series and contemplate things like this, so some social influence is possible. But while I can comment on society from a distance, I'm not particularly aware of group-on-group interplay, or "separate groups' of friends. I just don't care about things like that or notice them at all. So I'm not sure..

[Aylen]

I have associated my stacking in relation to my tritype. I think it is what makes the most sense for me. I also liked this article on the instincts even though I do not agree with it completely.

My instincts would basically work in the following way.

Core 4w5
• SX: Competition (compulsive comparing of self and other) <-- It is what it is. :/

Secondary 5w4:
• SP: “My home, my castle” (safe, hidden place—not family!) <-- I lock my door when I do not want to be bothered at all. I am around a couple of introverts so not a problem. No real stress to speak of as of now.

Tertiary 9w1:
• SO: Participation (careful to avoid the center, don’t want to get really involved) <-- exactly

http://www.enneagram-monthly.com/subtypes.html

Sexual 4s: Sx 4 is truly one of the more misunderstood combinations and the least represented in the popular E literature on 4. I recommend our mp3s, 'On All 4s' for a deep dive into Sx 4s and the other instinct combos as well. I find it helpful to go back to basics when trying to get inside a type and understand or predict behavior. We have to go back to motivation. First, the Sx version of all the types is the more aggressive version. It's like the hunter dog. If we look at Sx and 4 coming together as a formula, it looks like this: The core fear which creates the motivation for Sx is, 'I am ok if my intimate relationships are ok, I must have a mate to survive' This applies to anyone the Sx has made that bond with, not just a sexual partner. The core fear as reported by 4s, is of being inadequate, flawed, defective or emotionally abandoned. So, Sx 4 is someone who fears having their types core fear triggered by those in their intimate circle, those they have 'bonded' to. I like to teach when asked how one knows their Instinct, that it's helpful to ask the question, 'what makes you behave badly?' the Instinct is a survival mechanism, so when it's triggered our type/Tritype steps in address the issue. So I behave the worst as an sx4 if I feel, 'inadequate, flawed, defective or emotionally abandoned' by an intimate. This could be Katherine, my parents whom I am close to, childhood friends, or my spiritual teacher. The Sx4 is the 'counter envy' 4. They are more assertive than the other 4s, and also more emotionally over the top in their reactivity. -D

https://www.facebook.com/Enneagram.Explorations/

[Myst]

Sx-last's idea of "the one" might be different, maybe someone who would give them ample space and more like loyalty or calm support.

I do know Sx-lasts who want to find "the one". I've noticed that dating either falls last on their schedule, despite the laments, or they do date but make decisions that non-sx lasts wouldn't make. I.e. One friend would always look uncomfortable if I asked her if she "really liked" anyone, she seemed to judge basically based on looks and loyalty, but unfortunately without having a great compatibility antenna relationships would fall through. Another was a gay woman but dated a straight man b/c she felt a friend connection. A third sees relationships as unfairly monopolizing time that you could instead spend meeting many new people.

Going by your definitions, how does sx-first work for many Logical types who don't naturally navigate well the area of relationships and feelings?

(Anyone else can answer too. I noticed this issue before, it's not just by lemontree's definitions)

[Myst]

I usually ask the question: "What is the instinct you'd feel the most distressed about if it went wrong?" This is how you can usually tell what your main instinct is.
The blindspot/last instinct is the one you care about the least on a personal level. Let's say, you answered the previous question with "close connections/intimate romantic relationships etc... -> SX".
And the instinct you care the least about, in the light of the question, is SP. That would mean you are SX/SO.
(You could also just order the instincts from high to low personal relevance.)

For this question about the first instinct, I would think, to remove ambiguity, it matters exactly on what level of severity we think about how things may go wrong for so, sp and sx instinct respectively. Say a serious enough level but not on the level that will determine the rest of your whole life? In terms of that, some of the examples I can think of, for so: exclusion from a social group, for sp: losing a job, sx: relationship after initial very strong attraction not working out. In my experience, the sx one is most upsetting, so that aligns with my instinct stack typing, but the one that leaves me most unaffected emotionally or otherwise is the sp one. So instinct also doesn't affect me much but it does affect me more than sp. Is this simply because of more confidence in sorting out sp matters? So again determining the last instinct just going by your post gets ambiguous. And how this interacts with my cognition is also something interesting.

Thoughts?

[Myst]

There is a lot of debate about what instincts, and stackings, actually mean.

For instance some people would say Sp means managing your finances and health, but some people who overeat or overspend are Sp-firsts who are unhealthy and triggered in that area. Others would say Sp is about personal fortitude, self-possession, knowing when to shut up, etc.

Some would say "Sx" is about being horny, lonely, or wanting so desperately to find The One. To that I'd say, I know Sx-lasts who are plenty lonely and horny - and doesn't everyone want to meet "The One?"

Some would say "Soc" is about group participation, or can manifest as extreme antisocial sentiments. Others would say it's about a wider awareness of world affairs. Others would say it's about contemplating one's role in the group, but it doesn't have to be about socializing, or even wanting to socialize.


So, what in the hell are these things?

And what about the stackings? What do they look like in the last and middle position?

I made this thread to exchange ideas and vent thoughts. I want to hear thoughts also from people who aren't sure, or are still thinking about it; just as much as people who have firm ideas. I have read all the basics and books by most of the enneagram authors; I've read the typical explanations a thousand times. I am interested in what doesn't sit right FOR YOU, and your own experience, and things that confuse you, as well as themes you have noticed which don't match the "more normal" interpretation, and comparisons between the literature and what you feel is accurate.

I had a bunch of my own thoughts but I keep overriding them with better concepts and now I'm just confused.

So I'd rather open this up to anyone who is confused OR has input. Also feel free to be self-referential - discuss why you type your instincts the way you do, and what might be tentative about your typing, if anything.



Feel free to use other forum members as examples or mention why they type someone at a certain instinct. I am giving my consent for anyone to type me at any instinct or stacking, if you know me. I'm "Animal" from Perc & Typoc. I may start posting here more. (And I am very displeased that another @Animal stole my name here. RAWR! >:[ )

When operationalizing (translating into concrete terms to be able to deal with the concept in real life) the instincts, don't expect a very consistent system going by the instincts alone because the final manifestations (behaviours) will be affected by other factors too.

That aside, how I experience sx-first for myself is the subjective description of how the instinct always looks "outside" to connect to something, like with an electric plug. To me it's an attitude, a subjective focus/experience internally. It's intense and focused. The focus is not on self but on the thing/person you are connecting to and that's not even noticed how it's not on yourself, is how I experience it. This then can manifest in any cognition, like if we consider Socionics now, this for Ti information is going to look different than for Fe information, etc. By "look" I mean how it manifests through what things the cognition will motivate, where again, other factors will affect it too. Then it will look even more different if we take into account other personality traits.

So for example I think a lot of sx descriptions by beta NFs don't take these other factors into account. I don't relate to the parts on how well they can analyze internal feelings, compatibility, or whatever. I personally suck at that but the above energy I described doesn't need that.

Something else. I'm not entirely convinced such a constant/fixed hierarchy of instincts must exist in everyone. I still consider sx/so over sx/sp for myself sometimes and then sometimes I just no longer see any obvious hierarchy of instinct preferences at all, in myself or in other people. But since the above description of my energy is what I most often experience, with the grounded energy of sp coming in next with the broad energy of soc somewhere in the background only, I type as sx/sp (also because that sx/sp wanderer description hit so close to home).

[Myst]

I have felt this way for a while but didn't have the words to express it.
Everyone and their mother tells me I'm Sx first, and it is quite obvious that I am. But then I see people writing about how much they want relationships and want sex and how lonely they are and how their Sx isn't fulfilled, blabla. Thus they type at Sx first. I absolutely do not see those people as Sx first. I also don't see Sx first in people who throw their whole lives away for a relationship, and go from one relationship to the next and "give it their all." Those are usually Sx seconds.

Wow, I always read that throwing your whole life away for a relationship is sx-first. I dunno, btw, no opinion on this in terms of instinct stackings. I myself would think that just means who you found isn't really compatible with you, you had issues with your life before, and psychologically too, possibly.

In my experience, as an Sx dom... well first of all, Sp4 descriptions are spot-on for me; it's what I wear on my sleeve. (I am questioning my second instinct but I'll get to that later.) I have issues about it "missing" or being idealized, but I also embody it in some ways. As for social it's easy for me; a non issue.

Hmm for me sp is the "non-issue" instinct. I read that's 2nd instinct. I wouldn't exclude sx/so for you anyway, but idk, you don't seem 100% outward with your energy so sx/sp fits better on the whole, just based on your posts, tho'.

However when it comes to dating and sex, oh boy. My history is quite complex.

Lol, I'm sure. I relate.

So when people claim to be Sx first because they want to meet their soulmate, care about their ideal lover, want sex all the time or are lonely, I want to punch them in the face kind of, because it undermines my very serious battles here. Of course that is selfish, I have been mistyped several times and it's all part of the process. But I have SUFFERED over this. It has DESTROYED me, and the people around me. I channeled my Sx passion mostly into my music and writing so that I could feel worthy of actual love, or even, so that I could feel seen for who I am at all. I hoped maybe, just maybe, someone would find my music and relate to it, or see my soul in it, and understand. My soulmate did exactly that. I fucking can't believe it and I love him so much. This is beyond Sx. But before him, I resisted relationships so hard it's not even funny; while still being consumed by obsessions for people, and having that as fuel not only to find myself, but to take action. Even with him - I was obsessed and wanted him, but still, he had to crash through these walls before he could get to my heart. His honesty won me over and I could not help but surrender.

I don't feel that people typing at sx-first because of liking sex or feeling lonely would undermine my own battles with sx connections. I'm not sure why you feel that in a personal way, after all, those people probably have never even talked to you so they couldn't have tried to undermine your battles with it. The concept itself does not change anything about reality so again, it doesn't undermine anything for you if someone else types that way. If you want to say more on why it feels what way to you, let me know. (Curious because I just find this part of your post completely baffling...)

I'm not undermining your struggles either - I'm glad you got your soulmate in the end.

My father actually explained that to me. He is a psychiatrist and a 7w8, sp/sx. I just copied the idea from him. I always related to the cat crawling into the corner by itself, but the herd thing was completely his idea.

That said, I'm undecided between Sx/Sp and Sx/So. Open to all feedback

I do enjoy social commentary.. I love this about Marilyn Manson, who I see as a So/Sp 4. I find him completely brilliant. I write fantasy series and contemplate things like this, so some social influence is possible. But while I can comment on society from a distance, I'm not particularly aware of group-on-group interplay, or "separate groups' of friends. I just don't care about things like that or notice them at all. So I'm not sure..

I'm the same with this as you. Maybe the trick is, you can analyze some related information but the instinct itself doesn't directly drive you much.

@Volcano I can relate. I don't feel like saying any more than that right now. Just that I relate to your relationship history, and that sometimes I wish sx was the soft romantic cuddly kind of thing that some people describe rather than this twisted monster that wants to rip me apart from the inside.

Maybe for non-sx-firsts it's the soft romantic cuddly thing (=no serious neurosis)...

I'm not sure what I think about sp, or where it belongs in my stacking. I have no trouble with taking care of stuff like eating and health and paying bills and whatnot, and none of those things stress me. If I lost all my possesions in a fire or flood or something, I don't think it'd be all that horrible. I'd regret losing pictures of and letters from family and friends but everything else is replacable and no big deal. Is the fact that I plan my expenses and keep a budget, and manage health and fitness enough to say that sp isn't my blindspot?

I'm the same way with sp. The difference is, I wouldn't want to lose my possessions but that's for non-sp reasons (I like to own things out of motivations relating to attractiveness and competitiveness). Of course if they can be replaced then it's OK.

Sp doesn't seem your blindspot, no. Fits a lot of descriptions on how second instinct works, supposedly, it being the most neutral of the three instincts. Your cognition (being ST) would help there with ease of management of these ST-ish sp things, but the point is the instinctual drive itself doesn't seem like an issue for you.

Social is another that I am not so solid on. As a kid, there's family, and that's a built in social structure where I knew where I belonged and how I fit. When I left home, still just a teenager was when I began making friends and spending more time with them, and when I've spent periods of time purposely isolating myself from people, the isolation I feel is often surprising. The way I feel when I am included and a part of something vs. when I am left out or forgotten in a group makes me think that this is more important to me than I like to admit. But I think it's more that individuals want to include me and are paying attention to me that is the real difference, and it's more sx than so related in the end. Taking part in anything is empty without personal connection. I think of so like being famous or something. I don't care about being known by the world at large, or an impersonal sort of admiration and respect. I want the personal, the intimate, the singular desire and focus. I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what social entails however. I am probably mixing ideas as far as it is concerned.

I would agree with this, if someone wants to be around people while only focusing on who they are most attracted to/most interested in, that's sx>soc instinct.

Sx would be like constantly finding something/someone that you connect to, whether that be pursuing a hobby/interest even at the cost of the other two instincts, pursuing connection with another person or an ideal, or even 'advertising' oneself to see who might connect with the part of you that you advertised.[

Yeah. That "advertising" concept I really like. I've thought of it in a very similar way before.

Sp would be like constantly solving survival related problems, whether that be building one's nest, fluffing one's nest, or abiding by one's impulses to consume or protect. A proactive person might save for the future, build up their nest and employ safety measures just in case. A more reactive person might stress eat or shop, and are more likely to overspend due to trying to deal with reactive moods. An aesthetics focused person might decorate their nest, a family oriented person might insist on good food and family meal times, to help make sure their loved ones and offspring are well-fed. Etc.

*Falling asleep from boredom* (regardless of being strong in sp in a sense - or at least have the cognition to be able to take care of it easily)

For myself, sx and sp related stuff are constantly at odds. They,re the kinds of things I both obsess over, even to a detriment, and am most neurotic about when not fulfilling the instinct. They're what I have the most urges to do and to deal with. When I'm doing things related to one, I feel guilt and agitation for not doing the other, and vice versa. And, it seems that even a large part of what may relate to my SO instinct is merely an extension of my SP/SX instincts.

And this is why I wanted to comment on your post I don't obsess over sp but it's more like if I temporarily satisfied the sx then I can focus on sp for a bit and while I can't focus on sp I can still realize that I'm neglecting some supposedly really important things so that just adds to the sx and sp being at odds so much at certain times. Most of the time though, the sp seamlessly gets taken care of by tricks like me minimizing effort and time spent on it lol and minimizing the importance of some of the things. KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle is very important to me there. So sure, I will eat a decent diet and eat regularly, take care of some chores and pay the bills and whatnot, but I'm a master at minimizing the issues themselves.

[flames]

I have associated my stacking in relation to my tritype. I think it is what makes the most sense for me. I also liked this article on the instincts even though I do not agree with it completely.

My instincts would basically work in the following way.

Core 4w5
• SX: Competition (compulsive comparing of self and other) <-- It is what it is. :/

Secondary 5w4:
• SP: “My home, my castle” (safe, hidden place—not family!) <-- I lock my door when I do not want to be bothered at all. I am around a couple of introverts so not a problem. No real stress to speak of as of now.

Tertiary 9w1:
• SO: Participation (careful to avoid the center, don’t want to get really involved) <-- exactly

I like this way of breaking it down. But using this way, I'd for sure have 3w4 fix over 4w3.

ex.

Core 7w8 - Sx: Neophile: addicted to intense feelings/adrenaline rushes, relationships, anything new, fascination and dreaming of more

Secondary 3w4 - So: Status Seeker/Prestige: open with vanity and demanding of social recognition, dominating the social sphere

Tertiary 8w9 - Sp: Survival: demanding of wants and needs being met, going against the flow


^if I had 4w3 second then it would be showing external shame