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Thread: star wars : tfa - something i like

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default star wars : tfa - something i like

    i really put off watching this film and i'd sort of decided not to bother watching it... but i changed my mind and did, and i was surprised to find something i liked. (i have plenty of issues with this film, but i'm not talking about them in this post and they're all boring to me anyway.)

    shockingly (sarcasm) what i liked was... the bad guy kylo ren (i will just have to endure the bad names in star wars, and frankly it could have been worse).

    usually i like the sort of twisted and conflicted bad guy because you can see the capacity for empathy in the character, and so watching it win out in little moments even though his larger agenda is terrible, is satisfying. it's probably because it gives hope for redemption, even if redemption is unlikely. but i suppose it is that part of me wants to reach in and grab the compassion i see and expose it. so i kind of want to save the bad guy; or in the least to console myself with the twisted image of love and hate.

    in the case of kylo ren's character there is a similar draw in that he is conflicted throughout the film. however, i don't really have much hope of redemption for the character (which i’m actually quite pleased about). i think that as much as he was influenced and manipulated from a young age by snoke (horribly stupid name that makes me cringe), ben solo did choose the dark side for himself. he has personal investment in this, and he is informed in his choice (unlike anakin). ben probably grew up hearing all about the force and the light & the dark side thanks to uncle luke. since he has the entire story of anakin, he is not hapless or ignorant. he *chooses* his evil grandfather as his role model/father figure: vader is who he admires and aspires to be like. it doesn’t really matter *why* he was vulnerable to this (re: a lonely child whose parents didn’t have enough time for him) because he could have drawn from anywhere to sustain himself (rey was a lonely & neglected child too). he chooses the dark side because it’s what he feels most at home with in terms of his identity. (actually, the question of why kylo was vulnerable to the dark side is incredibly important, because it's why he remains there.)

    this is exciting because it's a different sort of vader-ish character than we’ve seen in the films. the story of anakin skywalker was more one in which the road to hell was paved in good intentions (although i thought he was a bit of a self-centered little shit as a child, but never mind that!). of course, anakin ultimately wanted the power but i don’t think he really knew that (unlike kylo ren who is quite aware of how much he wants power). still, anakin was driven by what started out as arguably "good" motivations (saving his mother, saving padmé, and wanting to end the disorganized bullshit in the republic that was leading to war). he didn't want the dark side but he ended up with it. to vader, the dark side is a burden ("you do not know the power of the dark side. i *must* obey my master." are the words of a slave). this is a character who was born a slave and spends his entire life serving one master or another, unable to ever realize anything of what *he* wants (it’s the total opposite of the drive of the sith, who are covetous and desirous). luke is vader’s salvation. not only does luke give vader the strength to turn back to the good side; but in doing so, he frees his father from a lifetime of servitude.

    kylo ren hasn’t been subverted by his “master” (who he sees as more of a mentor anyway) in the way vader was. anakin gave himself to palpatine so he could learn how to conquer his fear of loss, but from his point of view he was just trying to save padmé. palpatine, however, never had any intention of helping him with that and was later pleased to learn that padmé was dead (he wanted to maneuver anakin into ending her himself because it would chain anakin to him). he sadistically enjoyed tasking anakin with destroying everything he loved (the very things anakin was always trying to save). anakin didn’t know that with every task he was only building the bars on what would be his cage for the next 30 years. he even ends up trapped in a mechanical suit for the rest of his days—broken physically as well as psychologically. it’s a terrible betrayal and anakin (a moron as far as i’m concerned) was clearly duped by palpatine.

    kylo ren is more of an authentic sith than vader ever was (and the first humanly relatable “true” sith to appear in the films). the dark side is not a burden for kylo ren that he must sacrifice himself to almost against his will; it’s the source of his strength and what he draws from to fully realize his identity (although like all sith he *is* willing to sacrifice himself to it in his recklessness, but that is by *choice*). like palpatine, snoke tasks kylo with terrible deeds, but there’s an important difference. kylo ren agrees, imo, that he must kill his father han solo so he can more fully realize himself. he isn’t being duped into murdering his loved ones—he is very much involved in choosing this path for himself. this is why han was always doomed. nothing he could say would have ever brought his son back in the way leia wanted. han was right when he said that he and leia lost their son forever (more or less). (i don’t know why leia was such a hopelessly sappy person in this film. not that i think she would want her son dead or not want him back, but i was shocked by what she told han to do. how idiotic.)

    the relationship between kylo ren and snoke differs in many ways from that between vader and the emperor. kylo sees snoke as a source of wisdom about the dark side (as a mentor or guide) and as a way to build his skills. unlike the emperor who doesn’t teach vader anything at all (other than pain and submission), snoke is actively teaching and training kylo. i suspect this is because it’s actually the only way he can get kylo into his service. kylo wants something in return (more power with the dark side and more abilities) and it’s not worth it to him if he doesn’t get that. kylo is actually growing as a person (in a terrible way), unlike vader who was trapped in stagnation. he is using snoke as much as snoke is using him (the relationship is surprisingly more equal, or at least, symbiotic). it’s a relationship of mentor/pupil rather than one of master/slave. perhaps this is in part because snoke doesn’t have to fool and swindle kylo to the extent palpatine had to fool anakin (not anymore, anyway). kylo is actually a “worthy pupil” who is committed to the dark path and wants it of his own intrinsic motivation.

    however, since this is a relationship on the dark side between two very power hungry individuals who both seek at worst domination and at best freedom to achieve all they desire, it can probably only end in one of them destroying the other. when han warns kylo that snoke is only using him, kylo doesn’t bring forth any objection. in the script it says he knows han is right. snoke is not honest. as much as he trains kylo, he doesn’t do right by him. he is still in fact manipulating kylo in subtle ways. i personally think that snoke is kind of a foolish person who underestimates his star pupil, and once kylo surpasses him and sees how foolish he is, kylo and the other knights of ren will kill him. i would really like to see this in the second movie in fact. we already know the way in which kylo uses people (it’s the same way the dark side uses its devotees): he *consumes* them. once he’s taken everything he can from a father (han) or a mentor (snoke) he sacrifices them on the altar of his own power. perhaps when he finally realizes enough of his identity he’ll even sacrifice (finish consuming) his idol: grandpa. vader’s skull/helmet is like dumbo’s magic feather until kylo can be swift and sure with his own wings.

    the scene in which kylo kills han was beautifully twisted. he implores his dad to help him find the strength to kill him so he can more fully realize his dark path. he’s not killing him for emotional reasons, like hatred or vengeance, or because he believes han deserves it (even though he long ago rejected his father). no, this is a necessary step on the path he’s committed to and at his current level he’s not sure he has it in him (yet). this is a child appealing to his father to help him grow as a person (but since it’s on the dark side it is all twisted and sick—and i thought it was oh so effectively portrayed). also, he feels this is what his disappointment of a father owes him (the only thing of value left to give him). to me, this scene seals the question of whether or not kylo ren can be “redeemed.” he cannot. you can’t redeem someone against their will, not without a heavy course of manipulation (that probably no one has the means or understanding to carry out).

    this also clearly sets kylo as a very different sort of person than vader. anakin was responsible for padmé’s death though he didn’t really want to kill her. he didn’t know what the dark side would do to him; he couldn’t see through his twisted illusions to truth; and he couldn’t control his temper. it was an accident, basically. later a more mature vader, when pushed to the choice of the emperor/the dark side -or- his own son, chooses to save his son. he does this because regardless of everything that has happened and how destroyed he is, he still loves (and for him, his love takes precedence). but when kylo is pushed to this same choice—the dark side or his father—he chooses the dark side. and it’s worse: he already chose it long ago. this is pre-planned. kylo’s been waiting for the day when he will consume his father at last and become more powerful as a result, for a long time. i even thought that as han falls into the abyss and kylo is filled with emotion, that he’s more mourning his former self than he is his father. he’s saying goodbye to the boy who loved his father, who wanted his father’s attention and approval, who wanted to look up to his dad, etc. he’s also feeling all his pain and conflict about this (flicker out?) that he hopes to cure by merging further with the dark side.

    he wants the pain to end more than he cares about han. it’s heartbreaking to see him take everything from han in order to grow in power. the vulnerable boy who feels and hurts shows his face again and let’s han for this brief moment have his son back. he gives han everything he asks for—he takes off the helmet, he shows his face and heart… and then he feels entirely justified in consuming han into himself, and he *thanks* him for his sacrifice.

    this is a creature of the dark side. it is not a redeemable creature. it’s just rather thrilling to me to finally have a “true sith” as it were.


    i deleted the rest of this because i have looked more at the timeline and most of it isn't possible. my thoughts have dramatically changed. i am still ok with finn being a force user btw, but he could not have been at luke's school because he would have been far too old when it was destroyed. there are numerous things that wouldn't make sense. he wasn't hidden in among the storm troopers by kylo either (also practically impossible given the timeline). rey's vision can't be a memory either.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-12-2016 at 05:36 PM. Reason: new info and thoughts --> adjustments

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default timeline and facts

    i was motivated to piece together a timeline after reading the book 'bloodline.'

    -82 - emperor palpatine born on naboo
    -57 - obi-wan born; palpatine age 25
    -46 - padme born
    -42 - anakin born on tatooine
    -32 - trade federation blockade of naboo (events of ep. i); palpatine (age 50) kills his master darth plagueis
    -19 - luke & leia born (events of ep. iii); palpatine age 63
    0 - battle of yavin (end battle in ep. iv 'a new hope'); obi-wan dies

    (apparently 4-10 years elapse between the battle of yevin/ep. iv & the battle of endor/ep. vi. i prefer 10 years in between personally.)

    -4 - hux born
    0 - battle of endor (end of 'return of the jedi'); vader & palpatine die
    1 - battle of jakku & ben solo's birth (the battle of jakku was the last stand of the empire. hux's dad fought in it, and may have retreated "into a nebula" with some of the last remaining empire when confronted with the inevitability of defeat. during the battle many ships fell onto the surface of jakku, including the star destroyer ionizer, which i think we see rey scavenging from.)
    ? - snoke appears?
    4 - the rebel alliance forms the new republic?
    7 - finn born (note: by this point what was left of the empire had *already started* rebuilding. without access to the clone facilities they had to snag small children to grow into soldiers. finn doesn't even remember his family, so he was snagged maybe as young as 2? where all these kids were taken from (the galaxy or the nebula) and whether or not they were freely given up or stolen, is unknown.)
    11 - rey born (her accent supposedly may hint that she was born in the aristocracy; i like the idea that she was born to people sympathetic to the empire because i was thinking leaving her on jakku may also be symbolic... she survives off the remains the battle of jakku and off the remains of the empire. she lives in a fallen imperial walker. it's like she is a child of the empire left there with the rest of its remains.)
    16 - rey left on jakku? (age 5)
    24 - the book 'bloodline,' public reveal that leia & luke's dad was darth vader (during this time, ben solo is still training w luke and hasn't yet turned to the dark side. he probably turned shortly after the public reveal about leia being vader's daughter. this is supposedly when *he* learned he was vader's grandson as leia, luke & han had kept it a secret all this time. by the end of the book it's apparent to leia that there is going to be a war; she begins forming the resistance preemptively.)
    ? - the first order appears and the war begins
    30 - the events of tfa (rey age 19; kylo age 29; finn age 23)


    notes:

     
    rey was left on jakku *before* ben solo turned to the dark side, which means any theories about seeing kylo & the knights in her vision as a memory of the past are simply not true. i don't see any reason to think she was at luke's school, or that her being left on jakku had anything to do with luke. she was left there by her family, like she remembers. she also remembers (probably a parent) assuring her they'd be back for her as soon as they could. although this seems like a loving assurance, it doesn't necessarily make it impossible that her family dumped her because they didn't want her. it's possible also that they were trying to hide her (maybe from people working to build the first order?). it's possible that some or all of her family is still alive. it's bizarre to me that her family would have left her with unkar plutt who is an asshole... or why jakku? jakku is significant both for its backwater insignificance (it's a good place to leave someone you want to disappear) and for its graveyards of ships from the battle of jakku (it has meaning for someone strongly tied to an imperial family; and it has meaning in that it was where the war ended). rey's british accent may indicate she was born in the aristocracy of some world.
     
    finn was supposedly taken from his family maybe 8-9 years (age 1 or 2) after the battle of endor to be raised as a storm trooper. this was well before the first order arose. the empire however had been rebuilding in secret (in a nebula outside of the galaxy?) since shortly after the war ended. by the time finn was born, snoke would have probably already seized control of the remnants of the empire. although finn could still have latent abilities with the force, he clearly wasn't hidden in among the storm troopers at an older age (his memory wiped) by kylo, since kylo hadn't turned to the dark side yet and the first order hadn't even shown its face to the galaxy yet. i don't see any possible past connection that can be used to explain why kylo seemed to take finn's "treachery" so personally. in the tfa novelization, kylo *doesn't* take it personally or see anything remarkable about finn at all. i'll probably just have to return to the obvious: naturally being lawful evil, kylo thinks all in the first order should be properly loyal automatons and he wants finn to pay for betraying the first order (it's like betraying kylo personally really, as far as kylo is concerned). also this was shortly after kylo had killed han (after kylo *betrayed* han), and he might be displacing some of his internal remorse for that onto finn. this is apparently how you handle things you do that you feel bad about on the dark side of the force: twist it around so that actually you are in the right and everyone else betrayed you making your actions totally justified. there's also of course the matter of possibly being angry that rey associates with a traitor like finn. he would like to rid her of her friends and claim her as his own, in this way that probably only freud can understand (jk).

    finn's bio is kind of interesting: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn
     
    i don't think that luke simply left everything behind because he felt responsible? he must have had a plan of some sort? it was at the time a stalemate because luke wasn't willing to hunt kylo and kill him. leia wouldn't have wanted him to even if he believed it was the only way. also, luke is an optimist even if he is now hurt and haunted. long ago he couldn't accept he'd have to kill his own father and maybe he couldn't/can't accept he'd have to kill his nephew either. he would look for another way... it's just in this case that way is more difficult to find. in any case, by leaving the map (if he did???) and by r2 being in "sleep mode" or whatever, clearly things are waiting for some event in the future when there will yet again be "a new hope." luke couldn't fix the situation (especially if he can't bring himself to kill kylo), so he's waiting for a change in the flow of events he foresees for the right time/opportunity. it's interesting that luke and leia are willing to let all of this destruction and slaughter come to the galaxy just because they want to try to save one person? but that is in line with who luke is--he is ruled by compassion and not by beliefs about the ends justifying the means. and leia is kylo's mother. if i was her i wouldn't want kylo dead either.
     
    i don't care what they do, i don't think she's luke's daughter, or related to him at all. however, they do have some kind of connection and luke certainly knows who she is. this is clear at the end of the movie--luke's emo look is full of recognition. whether he knows her through the force (he is much wiser now so i'm sure he's basically omniscient ) or if he knew her family, isn't known. rey travels to the island where luke waits in her mind when she can't sleep. i don't know if luke gave her this to aid her; or if it is simply that they have both independently seen this future.
     
    kylo has difficultly believing that rey is "just a scavenger" as she believes herself to be. in the tfa novel he keeps saying "there is something there..." but he can't quite put his finger on it yet. this "something" may just be her abilities with the force, as he knows there has recently been an "awakening" on the light side of the force. but it could also be that he senses some hint of the dark side in her. it's possible that he may be able to figure out by the second film who her family was just as vader and the emperor were able to figure out who luke was before ep. v. anyway i think the significance he has attached to rey is often because of things from the force... no further explanation needed.
     
    snoke formed the knights of ren to defend the first order. it does remind me of camelot where snoke is dark merlin, kylo is arthur and there's the knights (of the round table). these are sith who agree to operate as one and it differs from the usual pattern of there only being two, a master and an apprentice, and one eventually kills the other. snoke and kylo are apparently not sith, according to j.j. abrams. snoke probably is a new character, not some darth character from before. snoke's a relic who's been watching events for a long time. he's like the lesser evil that can come out of the shadows after the big evil is defeated. maybe he wouldn't have been able to survive against emperor palpatine, but now he has no competitors. his time has come *finally* (he's quite over the hill) and he's not going to let the dark side fail again.

    it might turn out to be a bit foolish for snoke to employ a bunch of young darksiders (?) who are very skilled because they could all turn on him together. (et tu brute @ kylo.) palpatine was arguably wiser... he spaced out his sith creatures and each had a time table when he planned they would meet their end. so he used them to destabilize the republic but made sure they were out of the way before he established the empire. he kept the youngest and most malleable (anakin) as his personal servant and tool. this way he could gleefully sit on his throne, content in his supreme power.

    the sith probably followed the master/apprentice pattern over and over because it often worked the best. the more darksiders involved, the more in-fighting. so sith masters would keep a tight hold over one apprentice for as long as possible because it's easier to handle only one and easier to stall or prevent being killed by another sith this way (if you have 10 apprentices, that's 10 people who might be trying to kill you; if you have no apprentice, you have to do all the work yourself and are a greater risk of being killed by another sith since you have no help).

    it seems that snoke *isn't* as evil as the emperor... he may actually believe that he has some good intentions in this, or that he is being logical/rational... there is something different about him. i also found it interesting that he meets with hux as well as kylo (not just with kylo). he doesn't have the "bow in my presence" thing going on either. he doesn't seem to punish people for mistakes either as much, but looks at how they can move forward now. wasting time on who's responsible for failure isn't one of his things? anyway, one way this character could start interesting me is if he's actually way more gray than he seems. but since he likes destroying entire planets, he *can't* be lol. i would love if both rey and kylo defeat him in the next movie.
     
    i think that rey is really the only chance for any kind of redemption for kylo's character.

    at least in this first film he still allows himself to be affected and influenced by others: moved at times by what he finds in their minds. rey consistently astonishes him in the film. he can relate to the shared background of loneliness: rey was actually abandoned and left to fend for herself; and ben probably *felt* abandoned, neglected, and left to fend for himself far too much. he can also see what she has built from it (which is the entirely opposite from what he built from it--rey fuels herself with light; kylo fuels himself with darkness). given kylo's ability to admire others, be impressed by them, and want to connect with them (if this survives into the second film), he can possibly be moved or inspired by rey (as he was in the first film).

    for kylo to in any way move towards "redemption," he would need to *want* to--to see something he craves of what he lost apparent in someone else. since the formation of his image/identity is so important to him (based on his performance), i don't think he could easily lose or even want to give up this ability to be affected by, impressed by, or inspired by others. *this* is the very thing that led him to dark side: how to resolve his character weakness and his shame at what he is because of those weaknesses... he hurts because he feels inadequate and unworthy. the dark side is what he uses to compensate (it's the only thing that has ever helped in this).
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-28-2016 at 05:20 PM. Reason: (post replaced) + counting problems

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    i agree with most of these things and judge more harshly in others.

    J.J. Abrams is the destroyer of franchises

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    i agree with most of these things and judge more harshly in others.

    J.J. Abrams is the destroyer of franchises
    if you feel like saying the things you judge more harshly i'd be happy to hear.

    i would say though that i think j. j. abrams helped so far in that this movie is definitely better than the prequels. the prequels were so terrible i just didn't want to bother watching this movie.

    i guess in short probably my main issues with this movie other than some of the repeating of stuff from the previous movies were (in no particular order), cliche-sounding lines executed terribly:

    "but you can't deny the truth that is your family" "some things never change" "yeah, you still drive me crazy" "it was snoke; he seduced our son to the dark side." "there's still good in him, i know it." "i like this guy." "[something about luke's lightsaber] and now it calls to YOU." something about how the republic invites "disorder" (i've probably even missed the worst lines, they were just everywhere.)
    and sloppy scenes just there to drive the plot that were just really boring, including the leia/han scenes, the scene where the resistance comes up with a "plan" to destroy starkiller base (complete with stupid almost star trek sounding jargon which actually also came up earlier on the falcon too), the scene where the fighters actually destroy starkiller base... i know there is more than this.

    i suppose the scene where they come up with the plan sticks most strongly as it was done in this dumb way involving hasty improvisation. we establish the base is larger than the death star (ooooooh), han points out that like you can destroy these bases ("han's right" leia chimes in as though he's said something that all the youngins need to know along with the people like admiral akbar and that old dude from previous films who already know) and then they all fudge a 2 second plan. leia's like, "han how you gonna do that" and han's like, "you wouldn't like it if i told you" so that way we can just cut the conversation short. meeting adjourned. i believe the fighter pilot poe declared the plan was finished rather than general leia who is supposedly in charge. "boys will be boys" thinks leia dreamily as all the men rush off excited about their half baked plan that she provided no input or guidance on herself *when all of their lives and the future of the galaxy is on the line*. the whole scene was just sloppy and obviously just meant to be the condensed version of previous star wars movie scenes about destroying death stars. (unless it was "realistic" since they didn't have hardly any time.) it's like they didn't put much creative effort into these scenes and it shows? also they said "thermal oscillator" like 10 times and every character talked about it like they didn't know what it was or why it was important. (i associate it with boobs.)

    but this may actually be what i hate the most: the one note characters. a lot of it is supposed to be "funny" because it's referencing these characters from the previous films (like oooh the makers found the essence of the characters and have to put it on repeat). i was tired of coward/bodily sensations/emo chewy. i was tired of we're doomed/debbie downer 3PO. maz was a horrific character. i was very tired of all sweetness and light all the time leia. i was tired of gung ho poe (i mean i did like his character in the beginning of the film but it seemed to lose its substance as the film went on?). snoke was soooo boring. i just feel like somehow a lot of the supporting characters weren't very dynamic.

    and i don't know how to explain it as some characters that were very consistent somehow seemed more dynamic. i didn't mind hux at all. he was pretty amusing. i enjoyed how much he and kylo ren obviously despised one another and were in this constant rivalry. but hux was trying to be "professional" about it. still he let his feelings be known: he thinks kylo ren is an idiot who puts his personal agendas ahead of the larger objectives and thus costs the first order everything over and over again. he's basically right. it's also amusing how kylo attempts to intimidate him out of denying him his need to go after his personal agendas and how he kind of fumbles trying to hide his fuck up (letting the droid go) from snoke.

    really i'd have to re-watch it and make a list. (will probably never get to that. )

    eta: oh yeah and we spent *forever* it felt like between leaving jakku and han and his fight with the smuggler dudes. i wanted more time and dialogue in the end fight scene and less time being chased by monsters on han's ship while rey does more magical things with controls. i guess the monsters were properly "funny" since it really hits it hard how much han is still a gambler and a smuggler (he's only become more reckless in fact), but blaaaaaaaaah.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-26-2016 at 04:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i really put off watching this film and i'd sort of decided not to bother watching it... but i changed my mind and did, and i was surprised to find something i liked. (i have plenty of issues with this film, but i'm not talking about them in this post and they're all boring to me anyway.)

    shockingly (sarcasm) what i liked was... the bad guy kylo ren (i will just have to endure the bad names in star wars, and frankly it could have been worse).

    usually i like the sort of twisted and conflicted bad guy because you can see the capacity for empathy in the character, and so watching it win out in little moments even though his larger agenda is terrible, is satisfying. it's probably because it gives hope for redemption, even if redemption is unlikely. but i suppose it is that part of me wants to reach in and grab the compassion i see and expose it. so i kind of want to save the bad guy; or in the least to console myself with the twisted image of love and hate.

    in the case of kylo ren's character there is a similar draw in that he is conflicted throughout the film. however, i don't really have much hope of redemption for the character (which i’m actually quite pleased about). i think that as much as he was influenced and manipulated from a young age by snoke (horribly stupid name that makes me cringe), ben solo did choose the dark side for himself. he has personal investment in this, and he is informed in his choice (unlike anakin). ben probably grew up hearing all about the force and the light & the dark side thanks to uncle luke. since he has the entire story of anakin, he is not hapless or ignorant. he *chooses* his evil grandfather as his role model/father figure: vader is who he admires and aspires to be like. it doesn’t really matter *why* he was vulnerable to this (re: a lonely child whose parents didn’t have enough time for him) because he could have drawn from anywhere to sustain himself (rey was a lonely & neglected child too). he chooses the dark side because it’s what he feels most at home with in terms of his identity.

    this is exciting because it's a different sort of vader-ish character than we’ve seen in the films. the story of anakin skywalker was more one in which the road to hell was paved in good intentions (although i thought he was a bit of a self-centered little shit as a child, but never mind that!). of course, anakin ultimately wanted the power but i don’t think he really knew that (unlike kylo ren who is quite aware of how much he wants power). still, anakin was driven by what started out as arguably "good" motivations (saving his mother, saving padmé, and wanting to end the disorganized bullshit in the republic that was leading to war). he didn't want the dark side but he ended up with it. to vader, the dark side is a burden ("you do not know the power of the dark side. i *must* obey my master." are the words of a slave). this is a character who was born a slave and spends his entire life serving one master or another, unable to ever realize anything of what *he* wants (it’s the total opposite of the drive of the sith, who are covetous and desirous). luke is vader’s salvation. not only does luke give vader the strength to turn back to the good side; but in doing so, he frees his father from a lifetime of servitude.

    kylo ren hasn’t been subverted by his “master” (who he sees as more of a mentor anyway) in the way vader was. anakin gave himself to palpatine so he could learn how to conquer his fear of loss, but from his point of view he was just trying to save padmé. palpatine, however, never had any intention of helping him with that and was later pleased to learn that padmé was dead (he wanted to maneuver anakin into ending her himself because it would chain anakin to him). he sadistically enjoyed tasking anakin with destroying everything he loved (the very things anakin was always trying to save). anakin didn’t know that with every task he was only building the bars on what would be his cage for the next 30 years. he even ends up trapped in a mechanical suit for the rest of his days—broken physically as well as psychologically. it’s a terrible betrayal and anakin (a moron as far as i’m concerned) was clearly duped by palpatine.

    kylo ren is more of an authentic sith than vader ever was (and the first humanly relatable “true” sith to appear in the films). the dark side is not a burden for kylo ren that he must sacrifice himself to almost against his will; it’s the source of his strength and what he draws from to fully realize his identity (although like all sith he *is* willing to sacrifice himself to it in his recklessness, but that is by *choice*). like palpatine, snoke tasks kylo with terrible deeds, but there’s an important difference. kylo ren agrees, imo, that he must kill his father han solo so he can more fully realize himself. he isn’t being duped into murdering his loved ones—he is very much involved in choosing this path for himself. this is why han was always doomed. nothing he could say would have ever brought his son back in the way leia wanted. han was right when he said that he and leia lost their son forever (more or less). (i don’t know why leia was such a hopelessly sappy person in this film. not that i think she would want her son dead or not want him back, but i was shocked by what she told han to do. how idiotic.)

    the relationship between kylo ren and snoke differs in many ways from that between vader and the emperor. kylo sees snoke as a source of wisdom about the dark side (as a mentor or guide) and as a way to build his skills. unlike the emperor who doesn’t teach vader anything at all (other than pain and submission), snoke is actively teaching and training kylo. i suspect this is because it’s actually the only way he can get kylo into his service. kylo wants something in return (more power with the dark side and more abilities) and it’s not worth it to him if he doesn’t get that. kylo is actually growing as a person (in a terrible way), unlike vader who was trapped in stagnation. he is using snoke as much as snoke is using him (the relationship is surprisingly more equal, or at least, symbiotic). it’s a relationship of mentor/pupil rather than one of master/slave. perhaps this is in part because snoke doesn’t have to fool and swindle kylo to the extent palpatine had to fool anakin (not anymore, anyway). kylo is actually a “worthy pupil” who is committed to the dark path and wants it of his own intrinsic motivation.

    however, since this is a relationship on the dark side between two very power hungry individuals who both seek at worst domination and at best freedom to achieve all they desire, it can probably only end in one of them destroying the other. when han warns kylo that snoke is only using him, kylo doesn’t bring forth any objection. in the script it says he knows han is right. snoke is not honest. as much as he trains kylo, he doesn’t do right by him. he is still in fact manipulating kylo in subtle ways. i personally think that snoke is kind of a foolish person who underestimates his star pupil, and once kylo surpasses him and sees how foolish he is, kylo and the other knights of ren will kill him. i would really like to see this in the second movie in fact. we already know the way in which kylo uses people (it’s the same way the dark side uses its devotees): he *consumes* them. once he’s taken everything he can from a father (han) or a mentor (snoke) he sacrifices them on the altar of his own power. perhaps when he finally realizes enough of his identity he’ll even sacrifice (finish consuming) his idol: grandpa. vader’s skull/helmet is like dumbo’s magic feather until kylo can be swift and sure with his own wings.

    the scene in which kylo kills han was beautifully twisted. he implores his dad to help him find the strength to kill him so he can more fully realize his dark path. he’s not killing him for emotional reasons, like hatred or vengeance, or because he believes han deserves it (even though he long ago rejected his father). no, this is a necessary step on the path he’s committed to and at his current level he’s not sure he has it in him (yet). this is a child appealing to his father to help him grow as a person (but since it’s on the dark side it is all twisted and sick—and i thought it was oh so effectively portrayed). also, he feels this is what his disappointment of a father owes him (the only thing of value left to give him). to me, this scene seals the question of whether or not kylo ren can be “redeemed.” he cannot. you can’t redeem someone against their will, not without a heavy course of manipulation (that probably no one has the means or understanding to carry out).

    this also clearly sets kylo as a very different sort of person than vader. anakin was responsible for padmé’s death though he didn’t really want to kill her. he didn’t know what the dark side would do to him; he couldn’t see through his twisted illusions to truth; and he couldn’t control his temper. it was an accident, basically. later a more mature vader, when pushed to the choice of the emperor/the dark side -or- his own son, chooses to save his son. he does this because regardless of everything that has happened and how destroyed he is, he still loves (and for him, his love takes precedence). but when kylo is pushed to this same choice—the dark side or his father—he chooses the dark side. and it’s worse: he already chose it long ago. this is pre-planned. kylo’s been waiting for the day when he will consume his father at last and become more powerful as a result, for a long time. i even thought that as han falls into the abyss and kylo is filled with emotion, that he’s more mourning his former self than he is his father. he’s saying goodbye to the boy who loved his father, who wanted his father’s attention and approval, who wanted to look up to his dad, etc. he’s also feeling all his pain and conflict about this (flicker out?) that he hopes to cure by merging further with the dark side.

    he wants the pain to end more than he cares about han. it’s heartbreaking to see him take everything from han in order to grow in power. the vulnerable boy who feels and hurts shows his face again and let’s han for this brief moment have his son back. he gives han everything he asks for—he takes off the helmet, he shows his face and heart… and then he feels entirely justified in consuming han into himself, and he *thanks* him for his sacrifice.

    this is a creature of the dark side. it is not a redeemable creature. it’s just rather thrilling to me to finally have a “true sith” as it were. i hope the movie makers don’t fuck it up. (they will. )



    another interesting piece of this is of course rey and finn (the two orphans) and how they fit into this. i hope they both fit into kylo ren’s backstory actually.

    i think that rey's vision involving her abandonment on jakku and linked with images of kylo ren reveals more about the past than the future. she was one of the kids in luke's school and on the night that the knights of ren (led by kylo) killed everyone, he spared her. he even killed one of the other knights to save her. after this, he had to scramble to hide her somewhere. this is why she was left with a junk dealer. if luke or leia were behind abandoning rey, i would have expected it to be way more organized. they would have found someone to raise her properly (not a junk dealer). whoever left rey with the junk dealer on jakku was reckless and didn't have a lot of time (barely knew what the fuck they were doing). (of course, it could be that after the first order began killing kids with force abilities that rey's family actually abandoned her in haste like floating your baby down a river in the hope it will survive. but i don't think that's necessary when we can use kylo to explain it and make it more meaningful to the story that way.)

    as to why kylo saved rey, i'm not sure. one possibility is that kylo and rey are related by blood. we see how hard it is for kylo to make himself kill his father in the movie. so if we imagine a 16-18 year old kylo tasked with killing a little girl in his family, it makes complete sense that he wouldn’t have been able to do it (wouldn’t have *wanted* to do it). another possibility is that whether they are related or not, he saved her because she was a child and he wasn't able to get himself to slaughter helpless little kids (unlike a certain other young man who turned to the dark side). this possibility is interesting because it could mean that rey wasn't the only one who kylo spared that night. if finn turns out to have powers with the force, it could be that kylo spared him as well.

    i don't know who the knights of ren are or how they formed (before snoke or after). but for kylo to save anyone, the other knights would need to agree to keep it a secret. i think the easier explanation is that together the knights agreed about who they wouldn't kill (they were all teenagers and maybe most of them weren't okay killing little kids. or maybe they wanted to add to their order in the future and recognized the waste in killing the talented). this would explain how it's okay that kylo killed the supposed knight who was about to kill little rey. the knights had already agreed, but this one in particular went back on the agreement. he might go to snoke and reveal everything. all the knights would agree he has to die in this case, so no one would turn against kylo's leadership for killing him. it wouldn't cost any loyalties since this person betrayed all of the knights, not just kylo.

    kylo ren is very personal when it comes to both the characters of rey and finn (he sees them both as *his*). in the beginning of the film, he senses finn’s total panic and unwillingness to kill innocent villagers on jakku (finn’s choice that he will not kill for the first order), but kylo takes no action in response. he keeps it to himself until it's revealed later that a storm trooper helped the resistance pilot escape. then he reveals that he even knows this stormtrooper's six digit designation. does he know every stormtrooper's designation, or just this ones? he shouts "traitor!" at finn at the end of the movie with extreme emotion. why is he taking this so personally? well… if he saved finn's life at luke’s school and hid him among the stormtrooper trainees only to have finn turn on him later (as he sees it), i can see how he'd take that personally. it's also notable that kylo doesn't kill finn in the fight at the end. he doesn't even apparently permanently maim or cripple him. it seems that his objective isn't only to capture rey but to capture finn as well? he could have done far worse than he did with finn. even his sadistic act of burning finn with the vent of his lightsaber is aimed at finn’s shoulder (where it won’t do as much permanent damage as it would if aimed at, say, his face). and i already think that kylo is evil enough to kill anyone he wants to kill—so i don’t think it’s an accident that finn is still alive at the end of the film.

    the other moments of extreme emotional upset we see from kylo concern rey, beginning with how once he hears a girl helped finn and the droid escape jakku, he’s all “WHAT GIRL” upon choking threat of death. i realize it’s been a very frustrating day, but i think this moment is significant. he attaches significance to this “girl” before he really knows anything about her, which would make total sense if he happened to leave a girl on jakku years ago to hide her. if he saved finn too, and it turns out there’s this perfect alignment where the two kids he saved before (and possibly intended to use later) and the droid he wants, all come together… i can see that this turn of events would be of extreme significance to him. also, any force user knows through all the visions they have that events are always weaved together in meaningful ways. there are few “coincidences” if any at all. it must then also be frustrating that hux’s men don’t do any digging and only provide kylo the vaguest information ever.

    (naturally, the choking scene harkens to vader who also found most of the imperial personnel to be blind and daft. i don’t really want kylo to do the vader thing though in the second movie unless done in the right way. we’ve seen it before so it would just be boring if repeated, and i think that kylo is psychologically perceptive enough to realize that if you scare the shit out of people or expect nothing short of perfection, that they can’t perform. in the film he tends to take his anger out on things more than people, and hopefully the trend will continue. what i could see happening is that after he and the other knights dispatch with snoke and hux, certain other officers are eliminated too? i see kylo ren as more of a mass killings sort of person anyway.)

    in the interrogation scene with rey, kylo is interested in who rey is as a person. i think this is his style in general (hints of this are in the interrogation of po earlier), but i think it’s also because he’s trying to answer the question “are you who i think you are?” it’s also notable that kylo adopts kind of the role of a teacher in this scene. he wants to know rey’s innermost hopes and fears (who she is) so he can reach at her in the right way. when she tells him she won’t give him the map, he says, “we’ll see.” he is copying snoke’s style in this—earlier snoke challenges kylo’s assertion that han solo means nothing to him with a “we’ll see.” my interpretation also was that once rey begins using the force to resist kylo (he is not at *all* surprised by this btw, again supporting he already knows who she is), he seems to encourage or invite this. part of this is because kylo enjoys dominating his victim but i think it’s also that he’s allowing her the opportunity to practice and try out her abilities. he didn’t intend for her to get the upper hand on him, but blind arrogance and over-estimation of one’s abilities or under-estimation of an adversary’s, is a failing of most sith. it’s terrible that he actually repeats this *same* mistake at the end of the movie. twice in a row.

    my impression of kylo ren is that he likes a more collaborative approach with the dark side. i suspect the knights of ren are kind of his knights of the round table in his dark camelot. rey and finn were people he wanted to add to the order eventually, but he knew snoke wanted everyone in luke’s training school dead so he had to keep them a secret. he doesn’t kill either of them, or seem to want to, and especially adopts a role as instructor with rey. you could argue he gave finn plenty of chances too (he held back), but he was more angry with finn for “turning on him.” although kylo ren isn’t as blind as anakin was—the interrogation scenes reveal that he is capable of clearly seeing a person without warping them to his own twisted interpretations, and can understand them *as they are*—he still suffers from a distorted vision as do all sith. rey’s friends (han, chewy and finn) are murderers, traitors and thieves according to him (*they* are the ones in the wrong—not kylo and the first order who burn entire villages to the ground and slaughter all inhabitants). in justifying what he does to himself, he allocates blame. his overpowering desires determine who is to blame.

    i think that kylo's actions towards rey and finn make sense if he thinks of them as not only *his* but as two people destined for his order: the knights of ren. i imagine loyalty is incredibly important in the knights of ren. these are sith who agree to operate as one. treachery means death, but kylo is still trying to induct rey and finn, so it’s not death for them… yet. also, if this is how the knights work, it only really shows how informed they are. kylo knows that the pattern with the sith doesn’t work out often beyond one short-lived and failed regime. there’s always a master and apprentice and one eventually kills the other, leaving the “victor” to be overcome by foes. the knights of ren are an attempt to organize differently. this is another reason why i would really like to see how the first order would operate if kylo and the knights are running it, rather than snoke. to see a “true sith” who isn’t a darth sidious type (who isn’t 100% evil, though still a very bad person) and not from some ancient generation stuck in its ways, would be great.
    I'll sum it up by bringing up SWTOR:

    Sith Warrior = Vader
    Sith Inquisitor = Kylo

    Warrior just goes on a neverending list of go there, go here etc for fatass(ooops, Baras, yes!). When betrayed...NOOOO! My life has no meaning...RAGE! DESTROY! = SW = SLAVE(even though you are *supposed* to be of a pure Sith lineage, go figure) -> he even ends up serving the "Emperor's Hands"(or whatever) instead of taking the power for himself, raging through and through and slicing Baras' excess fat / ham. It's quite a shitty story imo.
    Inquisitor, otoh, just uses everyone and builds up power. His own, his cult(s), eliminating enemies one by one, even learning from Thanaton before being betrayed...but betrayal only gives more cunning power to the Inq. It doesn't destroy his life like it does to a SW...no no no! It only gives purpose to it. Because quite unlike SW, who was born unto this and thus has a mind of a slave, SI actually WAS a SLAVE, so, quite naturally, he WANTS to be a master(for once) and is willing to use ANYTHING-Light Side, Dark Side, Living, Dead...everything is just a tool...until he really does become quite...a "sex". So sexy!

    If they steer Kylo in the direction of an Inquisitor(which they very well might, given the number of TOR references)...it'd be SO SEXY, like...he could even surpass Palpatine that way!
    (I never liked Vader...in fact I actually felt sad for him...)

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    When I watched these Movies as a kid in the late 80's and 90's, I can remember being immersed emotionally and for that age, mentally, by the story

    Now I watch this new one and feel nothing.

    Is that me? Is it the movie? Both?
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    When I watched these Movies as a kid in the late 80's and 90's, I can remember being immersed emotionally and for that age, mentally, by the story

    Now I watch this new one and feel nothing.

    Is that me? Is it the movie? Both?
    i felt like the movie was half re-animated dead. there was only real/fresh life in some of the scenes. and the story clung so tightly to previous films that it was a bit tiring... it's like watching a new movie filled with the feeling that you have very literally seen all of this before (it's not just repeating themes--it's a repeating story).

    i actually liked some of the scenes with rey in the beginning but i guess i wished she lived somewhere less like tatooine. she could still live in a barren place (i think it needed to be a barren place) but i would have rather an entirely different landscape (rather than all the sand dunes) just so it could feel like something different (though i liked all the crashed star destroyers... the remnants of the war fell on jakku and so did rey). they could have used a star with slightly dimmer light (a slowly dying star) or just something... mainly the landscape should have been somehow symbolically linked to rey and her origins in a way that sets her as a *unique* character in her own right rather than ani/luke II. like, seriously both ani and luke grew up in a pile of sand. whhhhhhy do we have to do it again? (these are the kinds of things that dull and deaden the film--a lot of them are just small things, but when you put them all together it forms a deadening field that brings down the entire film).

    the other annoying thing was how basically the empire is back... i was kind of okay with this in that obviously the bad guys need an army (and thank god no more clones!) and it would be unrealistic to think that at the end of 'return of the jedi' the rebels manage to wipe out the *entire* imperial fleet. they got most of it, but i think that unlike the rebels who consistently put all of their resources in one hidden place only, that the empire had multiple places: places the rebels didn't even know about. i did kind of like the vastness of the interior of starkiller base and the return of the sterile and mechanical feel to it, and it makes sense it would be easiest to design it like previous imperial technology... the bad guys aren't very innovative since they insist on being so regimented, so it makes *sense* they'd just pull up previous designs out the archives and rebuild them or elaborate slightly on them. but the feel is so much the same that it doesn't complement that we supposedly have new and different bad guys now. the whole sterile and mechanical feel fit perfectly with the character of vader (a cyborg lol) but i would rather something different now. it would be interesting to see elements of the new and old warring with each other to represent hux vs. kylo (hux is an imperial man and he likes the sterile efficiency of things, but you could make snoke/kylo different than that). for instance, i think that kylo likes burning villages to the ground--i feel his nature is actually less controlled/sterile as there is a savage & predatory element to it (desire is wild like fire).

    (i did enjoy how they named it starkiller after what was originally going to be luke's incredibly awful last name. and it was funny that hux's ambitions mean making an entire fucking planet a death star--i blame him for that because he has such fervor and high ambition that of course a typical death star would not do lol. hux likes to aggrandize things and i can see him being the kind of hopeless moron who is all impressed by bigger being better--i'm sure it adds to his sense of masculinity. so the film makers *did* do a little at least.)

    the scenes i liked best were mostly the kylo or kylo/rey scenes; rey's vision; and i liked where she finds luke (though they overdid the emotions a bit maybe). these were the scenes i found life in. the nightmarish fairytale-ness of the forests in which kylo captures rey and they later fight was much more in line with what i *felt* things should be... the dark side is like a terrible nightmare trying to wrap itself around rey with powerful forces she is either helpless against or will be possessed and consumed by. it is supposed to want her and pull at her (and i didn't feel there was enough of that--what terrifies her in her vision is that it is calling to her just as the light calls to kylo). the sense of danger (and of no escape) was satisfying. the image of the ocean/island is by contrast tranquil and open (not full of shadows and unknown dangers). i like the ways in which rey and kylo are connected: one is yang (rey) and the other yin (kylo). each has a drop of the other. they are entangled in fate and they pull at one another (there is an irresistible force of attraction). i love these dark, almost romantic elements, and i want more of them. i also want both characters to be characters in their own rights, not pulled into predictable forms by the history of characters like luke and vader. they are individuals and they can resolve things in their own way. if they don't, it will once again be boring and dead.

    okay, also hux added life to the film. he was hilarious.

    also, i felt there was something cliche about finn's character but i can't quite put my finger on it. i think if finn is actually capable with the force this could fix his character in a way. it's interesting that despite all this conditioning and brain washing that finn retains his own personality and identity. how did he manage this? finn is drawing from something (he's like unconquerable--which is the coolest thing about him) and i would love it if in the third film we discover why. also since they *want* to repeat some things, it would be interesting if finn is actually more like the leia of luke & leia. maybe he actually is just more of a psychic with the force. even though he is a combatant, perhaps he never really ends up connecting to using the force in combat. i don't think that everyone has the same abilities or potential with the force. finn might not be as strong with it as someone like luke or rey. but he still has it. anyway, his character needs something.

    finn had a few moments. the one i actually found most interesting was after the first order destroys the republic planet (its name shall not be mentioned as it will bring the prequels back--it must never be named again), he immediately goes rushing back to han. he can't even be a proper coward. he's running in fear from the first order, until they do something else, then he can't *help* but go rushing back into the fight. he tries to run but he's too strong to run. it's amusing how he consistently gives into fear and plans to go with his fear and then the other much larger part of him rises up in the background and soon he is instead rushing into heroic action. being heroic is like his blind spot. although i think he won't be trying to run anymore from now on (he's got himself figured out hopefully).
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-26-2016 at 05:55 PM.

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Hux and reys scenes had life. They had humour and momentum. With a self conciousness reminiscent of Speilberg films from the 80's.

    Everything lia and solo was junk. Every little one liner groan worthy.

    How can a destroyed Empire faction have the resources to construct a Bigger badder death star? Lets step away from focus groups and do something original.

    good call on tatoone. Bin there, done that. Let's move into some new territory.

    One plus: all the creative wildlife.
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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Biggest problem I have with Rey is the naive way she clings to the idea that her family is coming for her when she's proven herself intelligent in all areas except this. She's well old enough to be cynical and think in abstractions. I also have a problem with someone with zero training or familiarity with the Force or the ways of the Jedi can beat someone who began his training, probably from birth, at Luke Fucking Skywalker's academy (Kylo).

    I agree with your observations about Kylo Ren, they're all things I picked up on to; the fact he probably chose the Dark Side, the idea of his redemption, etc. I hate him because he's a pussy of a villain and by mirroring the story arc of the original trilogy JJ has doomed the rest of the films in this trilogy to be painfully obvious and unsatisfactory to the seasoned fan. What was meant ti be the filmmakers showing internal conflict in the character of Kylo Ren only made him seem like a pissed off emo kid who throws juvenile temper tantrums when things don't go his way. If he lived on Earth, he probably had posters of Jefree Star in his room and cut scrapes into his wrists with paperclips because nobody can understand how hard it is to be 14 years old and going to High School.

    There's more I can't think of right now but there's part of my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Biggest problem I have with Rey is the naive way she clings to the idea that her family is coming for her when she's proven herself intelligent in all areas except this. She's well old enough to be cynical and think in abstractions.
    i suppose i thought she was afraid of expanding her horizons. she has a routine she lives by and it makes her feel able to handle things. i think she's mostly overcome this fear by the end of the movie. she was confronted with a great deal of danger and came out on top. also she has a sense of belonging now--if she doesn't see herself as entirely on her own, there's less to fear.

    I also have a problem with someone with zero training or familiarity with the Force or the ways of the Jedi can beat someone who began his training, probably from birth, at Luke Fucking Skywalker's academy (Kylo).
    yeah. i mulled over that a lot and definitely had my issues with it. none of the excuses i could come up with for it really explained the inexplicable... however, at least they didn't copy the original films. if rey had lost and the chasm had separated them before kylo could capitalize on it, it would be similar to the situation at the end of 'empire strikes back.' it would mean rey has to train to get good enough to defeat the bad guy as something to build up to. maybe getting this out of the way right at the onset is actually not a bad idea because then we can do something different (*if* they do something different...)

    the way it is set up now opens up possibilities for the dynamic between them... i would really prefer the creators not go the route where kylo is all embittered about his defeat and snoke derides him for being weak (apparently snoke already did that in the novelization after rey turned the tables on kylo's mind rape ) and kylo then is determined to show rey that *he* is in fact the more powerful one (to *prove* himself). if they go there, i'll be soooo fucking annoyed. it would be unbearable.

    i think the better course is for kylo to continue with his superior teacher attitude and not be so focused on winning and losing. this can work because the end fight scene as well as the interrogation scene were scenes in which rey got the upper hand in response to kylo holding back, imo. he had actually already defeated rey when he had her at the cliff, and *then* he chose to remind her about the force rather than attempt to finish anything. it could even maybe indicate being slightly more sophisticated in his understanding of human psychology than grandpa, in that while his objective in this scene is to capture rey, he realizes that's not the most important thing. a prisoner dead set against him won't ally with him and will just, well, end up dead. kylo already knows something of rey's will since he's been in her mind and unless he's a total idiot he'd know that hurting and killing her friends will set her even more against him. so, hopefully he knows he has to do more than capture her: he has to somehow convince her. even if all he does is make her choices more ambiguous for her, he's at least still got a foot in the door.

    i'm not sure about the above now because this is going to create a conflict. kylo lost to rey and snoke knows it. i don't think that snoke will be happy about this at all. in the book he accused kylo of having compassion for rey and now kylo has allowed himself to be too swallowed by softer feelings and was defeated. he could have been killed. i suspect that what snoke will first do is work to "complete kylo's training" so that he won't fall like this again. he and kylo have a pact (even if unspoken) that he helps kylo to be and feel stronger (to not be so crippled by his painful internal sense of inadequacy), so kylo will be responsive as he has felt weakened and afraid ever since meeting rey (off and on). he'll accept guidance.

    i don't know if snoke will plot about turning rey to the dark side or not, or if that would mean rey would replace kylo. it depends in part on how evil snoke really is. if he truly cares nothing for kylo (and their pact means nothing) and is just using him as a tool, he could very well consider replacing him. there are just too many variables.

    but the point is that kylo will be faced with a conflict about rey. if he continues to be in awe of her, i don't think he'll let that go. either he must kill her in revenge or jealously; or he must turn slightly towards her (which would put him in conflict with snoke). his conflict between the dark and the light is thus only going to get worse. and it's not simply about his quest to eradicate compassion and sentiment; this sort of admiration (being in awe of someone in this way such that part of you wants to be more like them) is actually another pull from the light side of the force. the dark side desires possession, dominance, revenge, etc. it's covetous. and those things are in this as well. but i think beneath that, it's actually once again the light. it connects to a higher ideal to aspire to (and kylo likes higher ideals imo).


    so maybe kylo did lose the physical game, but i think he's less of a physical person than vader. he's kind of gawkish in the way he seems to almost stumble around sometimes. his lightsaber is a p.o.s. lol. he also has developed the ability to freeze people in place (handy for someone who perhaps isn't the best combatant?). i think that for his character, the way to play it best is that he wants to win the *psychological* game. as much as he does use physical intimidation, he also often does things someone who wants to show physical dominance all the time doesn't do. in the very beginning of the film when the storm troopers shove poe to his knees, kylo crouches as well so he can better examine poe. he is also sitting when rey wakes up in the interrogation scene. he likes to lower himself to his adversary's level (or beneath it) rather often. he can even appear pathetic to lure someone in (as he did with han). i'm afraid that the makers won't keep going with this stuff... but i really think they should. a more mature kylo shouldn't care about wins/losses (not by themselves) in combat just as he doesn't really care when people quip at him or insult him. poe and rey both gave him attitude and he did nothing (which makes sense since if you were raised by han you should have a high tolerance for that shit). (kylo's an enneagram 3 not an 8 like vader, imo, which probably factors in too.)

    eta: it was also telling how kylo reacted when rey invaded his mind instead... he went to snoke for guidance about what to do next, rather than being overly concerned about who is more superior (he knows that he is more advanced and i almost think being the most advanced, accomplished or skilled is most important to him--and being able to perform effectively). i don't think he necessarily needs to be *the most powerful* like anakin did; although i'm sure he wants to be the best he can possibly be and achieve the things he aims to achieve. i think this is really clear, so if they turn it into a who's more powerful story i'll be really disappointed. i mean, also, this character is plenty powerful, even if demonstrating the extent of that power isn't something he always does.

    I agree with your observations about Kylo Ren, they're all things I picked up on to; the fact he probably chose the Dark Side, the idea of his redemption, etc. I hate him because he's a pussy of a villain and by mirroring the story arc of the original trilogy JJ has doomed the rest of the films in this trilogy to be painfully obvious and unsatisfactory to the seasoned fan.
    the hope is that he won't be a pussy in the next film? (though i don't want the character to become invulnerable...) he's still "forming" in this one. growing pains? i know that doesn't make up for it... i consoled myself by acknowledging that kylo has this humiliating goof streak in the way that han does... i mean he was raised by mr. 'it's not my fault'... he doesn't wanna be a boob like (how he perceives) han though, so perhaps he'll make some progress between films. i actually wondered if he gets so frustrated *because* he feels like his dad when he fucks up or when things don't go his way. (although i think the film played up this aspect of han...)

    they don't have to doom the rest of the films if they just cut it out with the story repeating. they had their fun, so maybe they can stop now. (but i also doubt they'll stop because j. j. abrams *does* this... he did it with star trek and now he's at it again. )

    What was meant ti be the filmmakers showing internal conflict in the character of Kylo Ren only made him seem like a pissed off emo kid who throws juvenile temper tantrums when things don't go his way.
    the temper scenes are fairly ridiculous, i agree. but it also shows that kylo can't cope with these situations (he doesn't know how to deal with not getting what he wants or how to handle setbacks). he's struggling to manage his emotions (is unstable), which isn't really unusual for dark side n00bs unfortunately: anakin's whole fight with obi wan at the end of ep. iii was an emo shit fit. i am waiting to see what they do with it next i guess--there is a way for it not to be disastrous. in the next movie, kylo should be far more mature and in control of himself (his training will be completed after all). unfortunately snoke gets upset about setbacks too and can't be a great role model in this, though he doesn't go "nooooooo!" and start destroying things at least.

    i wish the temper scenes had been less silly and it is an issue with the film. it's not just kylo's tantrums but also the over the top way in which a lot of cracks are delivered in the film. there's a comical-ness to it often that is supposed to be funny and entertaining but is actually just obnoxious and childish. kylo parodies anakin/vader in the temper scenes. this must have amused the film makers but it's difficult as a viewer to take a parody seriously. and when you do it too much (which they *did* in this film), it puts the entire film in this precarious position between realism and parody (leaning far too much towards the latter than it should).

    another issue is that it seems the average viewing age for star wars has decreased... eps i-iii made it into more of a kid's thing and now apparently disney has hold of it?
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-09-2016 at 06:51 PM. Reason: have to keep making it even longer

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Inquisitor, otoh, just uses everyone and builds up power. His own, his cult(s), eliminating enemies one by one, even learning from Thanaton before being betrayed...but betrayal only gives more cunning power to the Inq. It doesn't destroy his life like it does to a SW...no no no! It only gives purpose to it. Because quite unlike SW, who was born unto this and thus has a mind of a slave, SI actually WAS a SLAVE, so, quite naturally, he WANTS to be a master(for once) and is willing to use ANYTHING-Light Side, Dark Side, Living, Dead...everything is just a tool
    that would be great honestly. i'd like it a lot. i hadn't known about the warrior vs. inquisitor distinction as i've only really seen the films. i wouldn't want the character to be another darth sidious though. the emperor is too evil (he is pure hate). with nothing "human" to relate to i just end up supporting his destruction. i start seeing the character as a thing rather than a person.

    good riddance


    i was fine with the vader story *in the original films* and i felt sorry for him as well. he was a tragic character. i just don't wanna see the same story all over again. i really, really, really don't.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-27-2016 at 03:01 PM. Reason: added gifs

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    The lead girl is pretty, and Hamil is Hamil. That's all that matters, tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    The lead girl is pretty, and Hamil is Hamil. That's all that matters, tbh.


    (i couldn't find a proper gif of the prolonged exchange of intensely emo looks)
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-27-2016 at 04:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post


    (i couldn't find a proper gif of the prolonged exchange of intensely emo looks)
    I never noticed this!

    This is yet another thing they actually took from SWTOR: the tunic / vest whatever it is. Trust me, I'd recognise it if you woke me up in 4:27 in the morn with a fresh bucket of cold water! It's the "Humble Hero" tunic-which was inspired by Luke from The Originals, but still had quite some differences, here:


    picture sharing

    ...how did I NOT NOTICE this O.o . Tbh, that scene was at the very end and it lasted for like 10s before the camera started spiralling all over the landscape, so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post


    (i couldn't find a proper gif of the prolonged exchange of intensely emo looks)
    My brothers and I lmao'd when we saw this gesture in the theatre. Could he have done that any more "try hard"??
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post

    i wish the temper scenes had been less silly and it is an issue with the film. it's not just kylo's tantrums but also the over the top way in which a lot of cracks are delivered in the film. there's a comical-ness to it often that is supposed to be funny and entertaining but is actually just obnoxious and childish. kylo parodies anakin/vader in the temper scenes. this must have amused the film makers but it's difficult as a viewer to take a parody seriously. and when you do it too much (which they *did* in this film), it puts the entire film in this precarious position between realism and parody (leaning far too much towards the latter than it should).

    another issue is that it seems the average viewing age for star wars has decreased... eps i-iii made it into more of a kid's thing and now apparently disney has hold of it?
    JJ Abrams is famous for this brand of humour. Which is itself a common tool in films to juxtapose the seriousness of the material and can have a tendency to make the drama even more potent. The old Star Wars, among other films of its era, contained many "winks" for the audience. Comic relief, when done well, is important for engaging an audience's mind. Just ask Shakespeare whose plays are filled with comedy, even the serious ones. Just like plays, movies are about an experience, at least they are for me. Suspending disbelief can be accomplished by pointing out a small absurdity in the film, by the film itself. For instance: a bizarre frog like animal eating a tiny comical mouse in a S.W. cut scene. Haha! it screamed in terror and that is funny, right?

    However, because this movie is a revamp and a Disney one, the writers and director were attempting to appeal to the broadest and widest audience possible, so there were several canned humour moments. This can be overcome by the actors charisma - Rey is one of these actors that can pull off being funny without trying, as was Finn.

    That's why I mentioned Speilberg before, because he was another director who Abrams emulates for his films. Spielberg also places these seemingly random tid bits of jokes during the film which allows the audience to at once have a wall break and also believe in the universe the story is set in. With Star Wars, it can't all be Space Opera, dun dun dun dun tadun dun tadun. DUN DUN DUN DUN TADUN dun taaadun. ......drama, ie: Revenge of the Sith.

    Tongue and cheek has broad spectrum appeal. The world is folly and movies can also be fun.

    Did the new Star Wars accomplish this?

    I think when it came to the energy and story telling of Rey, Finn, Hux, Poe, and Captain Phasma, then yes they were fun and winked at the audience. It felt like a bit of what made movies fun once upon a time - a similar sensation I felt watching Dead Pool. When it came to the over due milk that was General Organa and Solo? Every forced one liner, as I said before, felt like a painful attempt at funny. It was pandering to the fan audience and felt cheap and tired compared to the rest of the film and the other characters. Although my Dad, in his late 50's, laughed through-out most of their interplays, so there you go.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    i really like your post @wacey. i am largely convinced. you're right that it can't all be space opera and i think i was thinking too seriously and not about how you do need to punctuate dramas with these moments.

    i think there are some things they could have held back on a bit or not included... they are small things... like for instance when the resistance is coming up with their plan about destroying starkiller, and finn makes his case for getting inside the base. han is then all "i like this guy" *haha moment look at audience* it's like all crack-ish and in the totally wrong scene for cracks...

    some of the jokes are references to previous films (like you mentioned, "because it is a revamp...") and somehow all of them together annoy me (i think i wish the film was just a bit less saturated with these things--just a *bit* less--not devoid of them entirely). i laughed of course when han suggested putting phasma in the trash compactor (and of course finn worked in sanitation? lol?)... but i was simultaneously annoyed at the crack. i was still kind of reeling from how easy it was for them to get phasma to lower the shields for them (i expected her to say "i absolutely will not" to that and was wondering if she was less heartless than i'd imagined. or stupider? i mean, she must know lowering the shields means an attack is coming*). honestly i was never sure if she was a human or a robot.

    but i did like a lot of the humor (i don't mean to suggest there should be none at all). probably my favorite moment was when finn reveals he has no plan at all about how to disable the shields and says they'll just figure it out, they'll use the force. han's remark about how that is not how the force works was my fav reaction of his in the entire film. probably also because it was so han, and because he's come far: from force denier to someone with an opinion about how it works.

    i couldn't agree more about all the leia and han scenes... i felt like they didn't even try to make those scenes good.

    i shouldn't knock abrams too much. i mean overall i did like the film more than i disliked it. and also, it's not like i am making films.

    maybe sometimes i was feeling like the haha moments were too shoved in my face. i don't need a giant pause with a sign saying: you are supposed to laugh now.


    *although i mean watching a movie is like being in a dream, because you know she will lower them because of the plot... but as a character (and what i imagined her to be), if she were a real person, she shouldn't...

    the moment where leia sent han on his doomed mission to bring their son home was the same. but it still made me think less of her since by asking han to get close to kylo, she is putting his life at risk (it's like asking him to bring kylo home or die trying and she completely ignores his intuition about it which was plain on his face--he was quite sure it wouldn't work). maybe she was in extreme denial.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-27-2016 at 08:51 PM.

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    i watched it again because i'm a dweeb. i don't think i can really predict what they will do with rey's origins but if i actually match her character up to others (and if she is linked to some other character from before), really she just always reminds me much more of obi-wan.

    the skywalkers are often more emo... kylo has his similarities to anakin in this (especially at the end of the movie in the forest he reminded me a lot of anakin, and of course he has his temper issues). luke was kind of emo as well in that he was very in tune with the emo-ness of vader and confident that he could turn him back. all of these characters have a warmth to them that becomes compassion on the good side. obi-wan, however, was more of a straight-arrow character. he was less compassionate and more of the attitude of destroying anyone on the dark side. their past (what caused them to get there) and internal conflict wouldn't be something he'd waste his time with: if you are evil and you won't stop, you have to die (this part isn't personal).

    i think that the skywalkers are often emotional reasoners while rey is much more rational (except for her anxiety). the skywalkers feel their way through stuff, making them often more impulsive or more likely to change course based on new emotional developments. luke has a vision of his friends being tortured and is all rushing off to cloud city. obi-wan thinks this is unwise and luke should remain on the original course (he should at least stop and think first). the particulars don't matter, but the point is obi-wan likes to take a rational, planned out course of action. he can also be kind of tricky (he doesn't reveal everything all the time) and i could see rey becoming more that way. when she saves finn from that monster on han's giant ship and he's telling her about it, she just says "that was lucky!" finn doesn't need to know why and this is the quickest way to stay on track.

    obi-wan also was kind of the more brainy one of him and anakin (anakin was more impulsive while obi-wan was more controlled, clever and would think all his actions through while also kind of coming up with spontaneous solutions or ideas--like when he was searching out the mystery of the clone army or whatever). to obi-wan there are mysteries and puzzles to solve. he was also the one who employed mind control just like rey did. of course, kylo read her mind first, but it's a jump (or at least a hop) from mind reading to mind control. the way rey talks, her impulsive cleverness (which she verbalizes), and how she is always thinking things through rather visibly just reminds me of obi-wan.

    the end fight scene does as well. rey is ruthless and she's aiming to kill; however she is also fair. but she still has a very clear conception of right and wrong and it's kind of black and white to her almost. on jakku she is already busy acting according to what is right or wrong and enforcing it, before she even gets involved with the rest of the plot.

    there are just too many things to ignore it feels like. it feels like a reversal. it would be of course all poetic or something that first a kenobi trained a skywalker and now a skywalker will train a kenobi. there's also the scene where han tells rey that it's all true about the force (a reversal of when obi-wan told han about the force while he said it was mumbo jumbo). in the fight scene at the end when kylo and rey grab each other's wrists it's just like a part of the obi-wan/anakin fight at the end of ep. iii where a similar choreography occurred. she even has her own yoda in maz (obi-wan was the closest to yoda). rey ends up with a droid in bb-8 that she was hesitant to take in and considered selling (obi-wan also had a sort of weird thing going on with droids... he doesn't like them, then he likes one of them, then he doesn't like them... omg he also asked r2-d2 where he comes from kind of like how rey asked bb-8). obi-wan was all secreting himself around the death star like rey on starkiller. there's just too much of this stuff it feels like.

    perhaps the most important thing is that rey is humble and not arrogant--she's "just a scavenger." she doesn't dream of excitement and adventure either like all the skywalkers do. we see her on jakku scrubbing some part and looking at that old woman doing the same (as though she's staring at her future) and *still* she consistently wants to go back to jakku. she really likes stability, routine... she doesn't really want to expand her horizons. it's more like obi-wan who probably would prefer to just live peacefully in one place for a long time (and might have, had he not become a jedi). eta: though like rey, once he's involved in an adventure it is actually very stimulating for him (it's about needing circumstances to push one into expanding, rather than actively trying to create this oneself).

    duty is important to kenobis. they serve the public good, and rey naturally is inclined to this as well. skywalkers are less fond of duty--but are generally ambitious instead.

    so, yes, this is my vote if it turns out rey is related to someone.

    (there are some things more like anakin--like how tech savvy she is and her piloting. but that's not really enough things. i suppose the thing that makes me go back on this the most is how she is beginning to see han as "the father she never had," as kylo puts it. was her father *always* absent from her life, even before the destruction of luke's school? or worse, does she even have one lol? pls no more virgin births.)

    --

    i was also thinking about finn and how vital he is all the time. his energy doesn't appear to ever run out. he emerges from conditioning programs in the first order unaffected and uninfluenced. he presumably will make a full recovery from having a lightsaber strike along his spine. it's almost like he has some sort of healing ability. i wonder if he could heal others as well. this could fit in with his high empathy (which was the reason he couldn't kill all those people in the beginning in the first place).

    --

    and lastly i'm more certain that someone messed with rey's memory. she doesn't know things that everyone does know. she didn't know han was a rebellion general. she thought luke was a myth. at first i thought these things were imitating the original movies and how the jedi are shrouded in myth or forgotten or whatever. but this time it was looking more to me like rey is actually the only one in the dark. *everyone else* knows. how convenient that she has these strange blind spots in her knowledge? i'm going back to the obvious explanation: she's supposed to be ignorant in some ways, growing up on backwater jakku.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-09-2016 at 06:55 PM.

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    Yeah, I think I need to watch the film again to remind myself of details so I can provide a better commentary. It's not fresh in my mind anymore.

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    Not sure what type Abrams is (probably Beta NF if you look at the kind of stuff he's done - Lost, Alias, etc. Maybe Vulnerable?) but the dude is seriously lacking in , this movie had inconsistencies the size of the Star Killer. Like why is Rey such a badass with a lightsaber despite having zero training? Or why do they mysteriously send her off (alone!) to meet Luke, when she has no prior relationship with him?? Surely Leia or someone would have wanted to go see him. Rey was set up to be the Chosen One(tm) but the actual reason why she was chosen (she's unnaturally good with the Force) was introduced hastily, basically at the same time she turns into a total badass...not a good dramatic decision. You can argue midichlorians are sorta stupid too, but at least with Anakin there was a build-up from the initial realization and some conflict involved in getting him off Tatooine, and then obviously his training and gradual fall to the Dark Side etc.

    Also it was somewhat boring since 1) you know pretty much exactly what's going to happen since it's just a rehash of the original trilogy and 2) the main plot driver (find Luke) was weak. Like, Luke literally just took off for some me time, there's no pressure to get him back.

    Harrison Ford is easily the best part of the movie, he out-acted almost everyone else put together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    I never noticed this!

    This is yet another thing they actually took from SWTOR: the tunic / vest whatever it is.
    They took some scenery in the First Order base (plus the crappy flying of the Millennium Falcon lol) straight out of Rogue Squadron and probably some of the other games too. (At least, I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the original trilogy.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    They took some scenery in the First Order base (plus the crappy flying of the Millennium Falcon lol) straight out of Rogue Squadron and probably some of the other games too. (At least, I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the original trilogy.)
    Yeah, they did acknowledge the games alright. People found a lot of uncannily TOR era reminiscent stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Yeah, they did acknowledge the games alright. People found a lot of uncannily TOR era reminiscent stuff.
    I am truly mortified by your self-typing.

    Since when has an SLI pretended, oh nevermind I would too if I were desperate for clean cash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Not sure what type Abrams is (probably Beta NF if you look at the kind of stuff he's done - Lost, Alias, etc. Maybe Vulnerable?) but the dude is seriously lacking in , this movie had inconsistencies the size of the Star Killer.
    so far i was pondering IEE for him... i watched a brief interview and grabbed an impression (ahem). regardless of his type i think the predominate information element in the film is because it is a mosaic of repeating themes and elements from all previous movies, apparently even referencing the video games as well (according to many of you). this much work of putting a broad range of abstract pieces together "artfully" is something i think is more in 's domain.

    the inconsistencies are annoying, but unfortunately i don't think it's just this film. i think films in general have been getting worse and worse. i find discussing the inconsistencies point by point rather tiresome, but mainly the point is that they stretch my ability to believe or take anything seriously to the breaking point and i have to sub in my imagination. in a way this is okay because it means i have to think about the movie more than i would if it actually made sense. mainly i feel a magical solution is always provided for everything in this film, and in no time at all. the world is not a challenge because the characters can always innovate an unbelievable magical solution on the spot (more ?). they are always winging it, which detracts also from any tension. (sometimes they don't even have to come up with a solution--the world and plot already makes something that should be difficult into a piece of cake.)

    i'd be really surprised if abrams was beta nf rather than some type.

    Like why is Rey such a badass with a lightsaber despite having zero training?
    well, rey is apparently such a natural with the force that she can instantly draw on its power (kind of like little ani--i wish though we weren't using him as a precedent because he was also a bit too magical of a character... he could build robots from scratch and fly space ships at age 12, or however old he was).

    the thing that bothers me also about rey's accomplishments in the film is i feel it leaves her little room to grow. if she has already mastered using the force and already said "no" to the dark side (at the end when she didn't just finish kylo ren off), i don't understand how she can improve that much... unless she does get tempted more towards the dark side due to her overpowering sense of justice.

    also, this question is worth asking: is rey a mary sue?

    i haven't read this article in its entirety yet, but i don't think she counts as a mary sue unfortunately *because* of the magical things force-using characters like luke (who could go from flying a speeder to an x-wing with no training) and ani (already mentioned his holy prodigyness) before her could do. it's possible that we place more strict standards on the character of rey because she is female (without consciously intending to).

    the only piece that falls out in this, is in fact that end lightsaber fight. either rey is the best force user ever (even surpassing little ani in this probably) or kylo ren sucks... why he sucks is up to debate. he was already injured; had just killed his dad (emotionally unstable); is arrogant like anakin; and seemed reluctant to actually kill finn or rey. he actually drew the fight with finn out. he had him on the ground and then walked off to beat at his wound some more. his swings at finn's head i think were deliberately too slow and meant to intimidate and frighten rather than as serious attempts to behead finn. he did the same with rey. once finn actually got him on the shoulder (he had been underestimating finn too much) he immobilized him fast. but even if i look at all the ways in which kylo ren sucks and why, it still doesn't really explain how rey was able to use the force so powerfully so quickly. her character is another prodigy--and i'm not a fan of the prodigies with the force because it's already so magical.

    oh, i just skimmed the article again to make sure it said the stuff i hoped it would... but i disagree with it about the lightsaber. i think treating the lightsabers like wands in harry potter is lame (and i don't wanna go there). what was calling rey wasn't the lightsaber but her own past... her repressed memories were starting to rise and i think *she* sensed the lightsaber (or for some reason the force was rather strong in the dark shadows in which it was kept)... as soon as she touches it she has the flashbacks because she's seen a lightsaber before and knows what it is (if she could only remember), but someone (luke--but really everyone wants in rey's mind telepathically) has fucked with her memories so that she'll never remember the pertinent things that would inspire her to leave jakku (unless her life is in danger probably). (i recently decided that luke also brainwashed her about jakku... she's almost in a trance when she talks about how she's "already been away too long." when maz told her she already knew the truth, i think she meant this rather literally--the truth is in her memory beneath the fog of luke's handiwork.)

    Or why do they mysteriously send her off (alone!) to meet Luke, when she has no prior relationship with him?? Surely Leia or someone would have wanted to go see him.
    yeah. i chalked this up to inner force knowing or something, since leia *should* at least be far more aware of her connection to the force now than she was in the original films. perhaps she knows sending rey may be a better way to reach luke (and training jedi is one of the things he can do to help the fight). i also wondered if luke and leia might be at odds in some way. admittedly i'm suspicious of leia because she sent han off on the death errand. i'm sure she really is the epitome of goodness or whatever in the films, but she's *always* been an ambitious (and even sometimes arrogant) person who is willing to make sacrifices for the "greater good." sacrificing han goes too far, and as much as i'm sure it was just there for plotsake, it doesn't *feel* like only that.

    Rey was set up to be the Chosen One(tm) but the actual reason why she was chosen (she's unnaturally good with the Force) was introduced hastily, basically at the same time she turns into a total badass...not a good dramatic decision. You can argue midichlorians are sorta stupid too,
    yeah... i never wanted to see 'the chosen one' thing ever again frankly. god. i never want to see virgin force births ever again. and i never want to hear the word midichlorian ever again. at least abrams has reportedly said he'll never use that unspeakable word again, but as for the rest... it's so hideous to me.

    Harrison Ford is easily the best part of the movie, he out-acted almost everyone else put together.
    i agree he greatly helped the film even though many of his lines were kind of bad or badly placed (imo).
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-31-2016 at 06:01 PM.

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    i think i've settled more finally on who i think left rey on jakku. i vote for luke despite thoughts i had to the contrary earlier. changed to her family

    the main issue i had with luke leaving her there was it seemed to be a very bad place to leave someone you intend to survive. however, he didn't leave her alone but with unkar plutt, the junk dealer (also seemingly a bad choice). plutt is *too* terrible of a choice. it makes no sense. luke couldn't have left her there.

    this idea is based on my deciding that luke was taking liberties in people's minds using his force powers which he had at least 15 years to develop even further (probably more). not only did he block certain knowledge or the tendency to be motivated to acquire certain knowledge in rey's mind, but he messed with unkar's head too. i'm sure unkar is one of the "weak minded" so it was probably quite easy for luke. it also probably had a greater chance of sticking since unkar is kind of petty and probably not very self-reflective. unkar was tasked with looking out for rey and possibly ensuring that she developed certain skills. she was not to be sold into slavery or prostitution; or to be harmed. unkar was also never to know any of this consciously enough to ever share it (and since he's a big nobody, known for being kind of a jerk, no one would even suspect him nurturing a surviving child with force powers). jakku is also a planet of no importance. i would prefer luke doesn't even have these abilities. it would be cool if it was one of kylo's unique talents. this could make luke want someone more like rey to fight kylo because with her ability to tap into either side of the force, she can very effectively challenge these dark side abilities. she may even have some effectiveness against snoke if her character is magical enough. and since it's already so magical i see no reason to stop with her previous miracles!

    it actually seems fitting that luke would want to block tendencies to leave jakku because he remembers his own journey. from a young age he longed to get the hell off tatooine, join the rebellion, do something great, so on... he doesn't want rey to do that too soon because it would send her off jakku right into danger and there would be no one to save her. she is only to leave when the time is right... (it is oh so mysterious) also, had it not been for his uncle and aunt trying to stop him from leaving all the time, luke would have left tatooine earlier. so now luke recognizes the importance in having some figure like this in keeping a still young and vulnerable future jedi safe. rey apparently doesn't have her own obi-wan on jakku to aid her though (she must aid herself; luke did the best he could in short time maybe). nah.

    the reason why it can't be kylo that left her on jakku: 1) i am skeptical that kylo would have been able to mess with rey's memories so effectively. i don't think he would have had the skill yet (he may not even have the skill now). he would have had to mess with unkar's mind too, at the very least to obscure any memory of himself. 2) i've decided that the image of the island rey sees in her mind may have been put there ahead of time by luke. we can't have her actively using the force to contact luke on the island because then she would have been "awakened" and would be detectable by creatures like snoke. luke is watching her; but she cannot see luke (i take back my earlier thoughts to the contrary). he left her the island image as inspiration to later find him (if not as more of a guide). it could even maybe help explain why kylo later thinks he can extract luke's location from her mind when she couldn't have possibly memorized the entire piece of that map (unless she can... everything is so magical after all). oh, and most importantly, it seems luke left the map on jakku for rey to find: two leads so that she'll eventually find her way to him. i think that old guy in the beginning had been traveling a long time and managed to find the map on jakku? 3) if it had been kylo i would think she might have remembered him during the flashbacks better since she's managed to remember little bits of how he destroyed the school, and of him coming towards her? luke is the one she can't identify--he has been obscured from her mind. she knows him as only a myth and even in the flashback just sees him hidden and hooded with r2 (he doesn't interact with her but is more distant). granted, she can't see kylo's face either... so this isn't the best argument.
    it doesn't matter. the point is, i don't think he did.

    i think that kylo may have just left her at the school after he and the others destroyed it and killed everyone, knowing luke would find her anyway. it wouldn't be a stretch for him to assume luke hid her somewhere either. the one issue with this is that it leaves the door open for the jedi to gain a foothold again; more so than abandoning rey in the middle of nowhere himself would. but i think that kylo has a pattern of going with his personal and emotionally-driven motivations over what would be the better plan for the bad guys. we can also use his age to explain irrational decisions, in addition to his recent "turn to the dark side" (a time of instability).

    the reason why it isn't her family that left her: if luke messed with her mind anyway, he can leave her with the impression that her family left her and is coming back quite easily (she must wait for them). considering i consider much of her force vision to be flashbacks, i'm not sure she even remembered the day she was left clearly (if it comes as a revelation to her in the vision). i think it's likely her family was killed around the same time luke's school was destroyed, so i don't think they would have been there to hide her somewhere. even if they were still alive, it would be safe to assume they are on a hit list and are the first place anyone would look to find rey (luke will not know if anyone will be looking necessarily, but it's best not to take any chances) i also don't think luke would have left the task to anyone but himself (he needs to know where she is, and make sure the parameters are set up right). he also needs to make sure she is safe and can do so by manipulating unkar plutt's mind. just no. her family *did* leaver her on jakku. that's what she remembers. this is really probably quite simple.

    ps: *if* luke did all of this i'm rather enthralled because of how rapey all of it is in theme. there is already virginal rey, all in creme colors, who goes through "awakening" in steps. early in life, she is deprived of knowledge (and thus of feminine power) by a masculine figure and doesn't really begin to get it back until she encounters a wise feminine grandmotherly figure and opens a pandora's box. soon after, she is abducted in the forest by another masculine figure and then forcibly mind raped. this is the end of her awakening, when not only has she recovered access to the knowledge denied her (also through a psychic rape) but to her power (through violation & what she learns from it). in the second movie, she can't be so virginal anymore. once she recovers all the lost knowledge, it could give cause for fury. yes, well, he didn't do it. it would be ridiculous to add luke to rey's mind rapists. i'm sure the film makers would see the underlying implications and *not* do that.

    notes on unkar plutt: i've scanned through the "novelization" and discovered that unkar plutt is a nastier person than i thought... apparently unkar followed her to 'takodana,' enraged at her for stealing the falcon, and made some threats (how he'd make her and bb-8 pay and it sounded quite sadistic and he has some kind of gross 'thing' for her to boot). he was violent enough about it for chewy to see fit to rip one of his arms off (one should always trust chewy's instincts about a person's character... he is like the family dog). anyway, if unkar is this punishing, he is not safe. he could be a child molester for all we know. he's hideous.

    *i'm seriously going back to the idea that her family actually did abandon her there (because they are idiots?). of all the worlds, and all the people, why this jackass? seriously.*
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-10-2016 at 02:36 AM.

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    i'm very annoyed at all of my previous posts (*waits to find this one the same*) but i think i have settled upon the story i might find most satisfying.

    i was pondering the question of whether or not the act of killing han solo strengthened or weakened kylo ren and what that means. i think that given the "material," the creators could go either way with his character. in the novelization it weakens him, but apparently this was left uncertain once the whole script/movie process was finished? (i forget where/how i encountered that)

    out of personal bias because i'm tired of having a black & white way of dealing with the force (dark side vs. light side where the two are binary), i would rather kylo ren's alliance is much closer to the middle than that (too close for comfort), while still being on the dark end of the spectrum (he is a mass murderer so he is definitely a bad guy).

    this poses a problem for his character in that he can't really fit neatly on either side of the force, and from my scanning of the "novel" i don't think snoke is going to be of much help. this is because although i don't believe snoke is as evil (or as powerful, or as insane) as emperor palpatine, he is still very evil (and more evil than kylo ren). they don't have the same alliance on the spectrum of evil<--->good and this makes them ineffective to one another despite their alliance.

    ^well, i think that snoke has been more effective for kylo than anyone else in terms of helping him feel able to tolerate himself (to feel less weak and pathetic)... this shouldn't be discounted. in the long-term however there may be an alliance issue (the secrets snoke keeps will matter greatly in this). i also think rey is the better candidate for aptly using both sides of the force. the issue with kylo is that the dark side always drew him more than the light (whether due to snoke's early influence or not). this is why han says there was too much vader in him. if luke is as much of an optimist as i'd expect, this wouldn't be reason enough to give up on kylo (*i* haven't given up on him)... the bigger question behind this is "what is the dark side, and what is the light?" do you have to be a dark side force user and be evil? is it truly that there is no other way this can work? and what is the "middle path"?

    snoke's interpretation of the fall of the empire (from the novel) is that it failed because of vader who allowed his sentiments about his son to overrule him. thus kylo needs to take the same test with han and not do the same (succeed where vader failed). i find this amusing because there are so many possible lessons to be gained for the bad guys from what transpired with vader, luke & the emperor. for one (as mentioned before) vader was not happy with the arrangement (he'd been plotting for him and luke to kill the emperor together and then rule the galaxy more in the way vader wanted--he'd been plotting his freedom from being the emperor's tool and bitch). naturally, snoke wouldn't want to look at that or bring it up to kylo. another issue is snoke's interpretation of strength and weakness, which i think is a very important topic since the main driver for kylo ren is his fear that he'll never be as strong as (how he imagines) vader was (or should have been). in the film he is constantly at war with himself, and experiences "the light" as pulling him into the sort of pitiful weakness that he finds unbearable. when he succumbs to it, he can't perform. at the end of the film he's left afraid and bleeding in the cold, and has essentially fallen to his own weakness. (dark side fail)

    snoke's interpretation of this is that kylo needs to purge himself of all sentiment and compassion as the way to get stronger. this is interesting since in the novel snoke says,

    i have never had a student with such promise--before you. [...] it is where you are from. what you are made of. the dark side--and the light. the finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. he must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. i have--you.
    a lot of this is empty flattery imo (oh and honestly rey is the more pure/strong one) and perhaps it's not meant in the way i might see it. but the point is that there is an advantage to kylo ren if he can draw upon both sides of the force, rather than just one or the other. however, this is more difficult because love/compassion & hate/rage are opposing and you can't really feel them both at the same time. so i think someone using "both sides" of the force would essentially have two faces, although with time they might get better at merging the two. i kind of like this for kylo ren because i think he already has this two-faced quality: contrast some of the moments with han with when he killed that old guy in the beginning, for instance. it would also be fitting because this character prefers to wear an actual mask when he doesn't really need one, and before that he probably used masks in his behavior a lot (and still does, like when he's talking with snoke unmasked in one scene and hux shows up unexpectedly... kylo takes a moment to adjust his expression because he's desperately trying to get his i'm-so-intimidating mask back up, to save face).

    the problem is that snoke only wants to give him these dark side lessons (because snoke is pretty stably rooted to the dark side). when you give these lessons to someone whose alliance is leaning a little more center, it doesn't work very well (unless you are aiming to make a broken slave like vader was, which possibly snoke *is* aiming to do that). snoke also doesn't acknowledge that if you are using the light side of the force, compassion is a huge strength (it is not a weakness at all). he's feeding kylo bad ideas about what "strength" is and what "weakness" is, and kylo still is going with his guidance on these matters. until... it doesn't work with han. if kylo really was "weakened" after he killed han, he may eventually come to perceive matters differently. why didn't it work?

    i think that the next person kylo should be tasked with killing is rey; that it's not that it isn't going to work (by snoke's guidance) but that kylo hasn't killed enough people yet. killing rey (who is very strong with the force) should make kylo more powerful, as long as he banishes any feelings of compassion towards her and replaces them with vengeance and rage. but perhaps once again (if his alliance isn't dark enough) he'll be faced with struggle and conflict that seems to arise spontaneously as he tries to kill her. he then may come to realize that this is han solo all over again and see that if he succeeds he'll in fact be even *weaker*. i'm not sure what snoke's take would be on this but that he 1) wouldn't see this because he can't see how compassion is a strength; and 2) he may actually go in the direction of wanting rey to kill kylo because she seems like she'd be an even more powerful servant if she would just turn to the dark side (and she has plenty of reasons already to hate kylo ren rather than feeling compassion for him). i think snoke would love someone who can use both sides; he would then want rey (although he will be wiser than someone like palpatine possibly... he may know that it's not easy to turn someone who is as good as rey or luke. because snoke is less powerful than a supreme sith like palpatine, he has the fortune of being less deluded.

    in any case, i think it would be interesting if eventually kylo decides to make his own decision with this and realize he has to go his own way. he can draw on the dark side a lot of the time, but when compassion arises, rather than trying to snuff it out, he will need to adjust to it and use it. killing those he feels any concern for will only weaken him more (the lesson of han). compassion appears because his alliance isn't totally evil, and the lesson of vader is not that he shouldn't have given into compassion, but that you cannot change your inherent nature unless you wish to meet ruin (and you shouldn't try to). i think that if kylo ren could master his more dual nature that this would be the way he could become "stronger than darth vader." succeeding in killing snoke would help as well (that would be one killing using the dark side that *would* strengthen him, assuming he is disillusioned with snoke). if kylo once again has nowhere to go. snoke is plotting against him and rey is his enemy, he *must* make a choice. and that choice is not going to be sacrificing himself for snoke. he is far too self-involved for that.

     
    the problem is that by keeping compassion you keep your remorse--the remorse for killing han (and i don't know if there is any other remorse lurking in there, but han is the biggie). at the end of the third film i assume kylo has to be defeated because we can't let the villain win the trilogy. i would like if his fatal error that he can't escape was killing han. it could be one of those stories where he is consumed by his own guilt. he's a mass murderer after all who collects the ashes of those he's personally killed. he sacrifices people to become more powerful... and when you owe your power to the souls of the dead, those same souls can turn on you (metaphorically--the weight of what you've done never leaves you alone). in order to balance it so you are not consumed by your crimes you have to be careful about who you kill--it can't be someone who you love very much (even if you also hate that person).

    i think this would actually be character growth on a skywalker character on the dark side. it would be getting farther than vader did. the objective would be if a skywalker could not only operate on the dark side, but succeed in it. in the third movie we could see kylo actually running the first order (with the knights, if they aren't losers who all get killed off earler) and so get a taste of this. but because villains must be defeated, it is short lived.


    so in short (yeah right): the conflict with kylo ren in the second movie could be resolving his "weakness" in his own way, finding he cannot kill rey (both because they are too evenly matched or she is stronger and because he can't kill his compassion possibly, but especially because he is in *awe* of her) and that he should kill snoke instead (which really it will be rey killing snoke and *that* will turn her to the dark side). the conflict with rey would be that she will be tempted to the dark side (and she's going to have to turn herself back, all on her own, which that would be a stellar feat that i'd like to see now that i've embraced just how magical her character is). if it ends in snoke's death especially if both kylo and rey killed snoke, that would be interesting. because after, she hasn't turned to the dark side, and he is not "redeemed" (in fact in many ways he will be even stronger with the dark side). a parallel of vader killing the emperor to save luke seems to have taken place by a glance on the surface; but the result is so different you see that it's actually not at all the same thing.

    also i would expect both rey (especially) and kylo to both be much better at fighting and with the force from the very beginning of the 2nd film. and i'd like to see kylo rey? using lightening in the last film. i'm kind of torn about who should kill kylo... it seems lame of luke to insist rey does it. it would be too pitiful if he killed himself or sacrificed himself. all the pressure would be put on the good guys. they can see the good in kylo ren, but he can never be redeemed and continues as a mass murderer. does rey have to do what luke couldn't? i'd also love to see a conflict between luke and leia over this: she wants to save kylo; he believes kylo must die (even if he can't do it himself). there will be no killing of kylo.

    eta: actually what i would like better since i read that apparently abrams wants there to be a literal dark end of space... perhaps kylo isn't killed at all, but retreats into "hell in space." what will become of him there, who knows... he may not survive longer than a day. but i wouldn't want the skywalker line to end, so this leaves a crack open. the next skywalker villain could be worse (coming from space hell and all). if a skywalker is as evil as characters like the emperor i'd expect it to one very impressive villain. this would be something that could happen if kylo goes more towards neutral but is still too evil. it would be a bit of a failed scenario for luke/leia, but at least he would still be alive and not tormenting the known galaxy.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-12-2016 at 10:44 PM.

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    i was also thinking about finn and how vital he is all the time. his energy doesn't appear to ever run out.


    Haha, yeah, I know exactly what you mean- and that's why I was kind of mentally teasing Rey for being a stereotypical str8 girl the entire time lol. Their romance was beyond obvious and typical of so many real life relationships I see, they were really trying to make it true to life. I might be being too hard on her, but I see her as intrinsically more self involved than she lets on- it's like doing the right thing is so easy for her, so it's not true bravery. She's like that chick in school that knows how to be nice and get all As and never really has to work for it- so it doesn't mean anything, so she's kind of just boringly and default-ishly pitted on the good side of the force. There's no struggle with it for her. I think it would be way more interesting if she went dark, and started killing all beta males who weren't black and virile and brave like Finn.

    I always thought Star Wars needed um a 'gray force' or something (if there isn't already, I am not too familiar with the details of the series) and I think that better fits Rey. She's like the earth or something. Not good or evil, just natural and balanced and sexual. At the end of the day she just wants to wed some asshole/tough male and live a normal life in the village convincing herself she's an alright person. Rey is a soccer mom.

    Ugh I'm so mean to her. She brings out the Kylo Ren in me. *boss fights her*
    Last edited by bnd; 06-03-2016 at 07:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I always thought Star Wars needed um a 'gray force' or something (if there isn't already, I am not too familiar with the details of the series) and I think that better fits Rey. She's like the earth or something. Not good or evil, just natural and balanced and sexual.
    ^like

    At the end of the day she just wants to wed some asshole/tough male and live a normal life in the village convincing herself she's an alright person. Rey is a soccer mom.
    oh come on. really??? i think you're reading the whole wanting the alpha male thing into her character here. rey likes her independence far too much for that. i do think that rey needs to have more agency in the second movie and especially in the third. she needs to do things *her way*.

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    i think you're reading the whole wanting the alpha male thing into her character here. rey likes her independence far too much for that. i do think that rey needs to have more agency in the second movie and especially in the third. she needs to do things *her way*.
    Maybe yeah, I am too harsh sorry. =/ I just wish they downplayed the romance a bit between them. Too much of the movie was about them I think. Can a straight man and straight woman really not just be friends? I always hear that they cannot, and I think that's ridiculous. Though as long as he keeps being brave, virile and black- he won't be friendzoned. lol.

    Hollywood always has this double standard of creating powerful independent female characters (which I agree Rey is) but then making them helpless damsels for the right guy... like how Buffy is all powerful and leadershippy until Spike takes his shirt off. dunno they just want their cake and eat it too.
    Last edited by bnd; 06-04-2016 at 12:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I just wish they downplayed the romance a bit between them. Too much of the movie was about them I think. Can a straight man and straight woman really not just be friends? I always hear that they cannot, and I think that's ridiculous. Though as long as he keeps being brave, virile and black- he won't be friendzoned. lol.
    i didn't actually see their interactions as romantic. although finn did ask her early on if she had a bf on jakku (which i thought was a bit odd coming from a stormtrooper, but i don't presume to know about stormtrooper sex. i imagine they must have some efficient imperial way of managing such distracting urges... but still i don't understand why someone who's been socializing with brainwashed soldiers his entire life would really even think of things that way... i thought their minds were mostly full of "yes sir"s and quips like "scavenger scum," but nvm!).

    anyway i see their relationship as friendship only *so far*. finn is really dedicated to saving and protecting rey and grabbing her hand when they're running, but that's just him. i didn't feel there was even any chemistry between them really (not of a sexual sort). in fact, they remind me of the dynamic between luke and leia... luke wanted to save the princess in the first movie and all his romantic ideals kind of petered out after that.

    it's the next movie where we may have to deal with rey's love interest... and i really hope not. real jedi don't have love interests.

    but i do agree w you that they'll probably put a love story somewhere in the second film. maybe it can be homosexual as i thought i read this will be in the film. *suspects benicio del toro's character will be gay* (they can't make finn gay because i'd never believe it after his behavior in this film.) i hope kylo ren isn't gay because i'm doing the str8 girl thing you like to talk about. if him and snoke get it on i may throw up. (but... if he and hux have hate sex i might be somewhat intrigued...)

    Hollywood always has this double standard of creating powerful independent female characters (which I agree Rey is) but then making them helpless damsels for the right guy... like how Buffy is all powerful and leadershippy until Spike takes his shirt off. dunno they just want their cake and eat it too.
    i don't think rey will be much of a damsel in distress in the next two movies because of the force. also i mean luke needed saving sometimes, like after daddy chopped off his arm in cloud city. oh or how old ben had to defend him from that asshole in the cantina (another arm chopping). or when the emperor was killing him with electricity. or when he was stuck out in the snow on hoth and han had to come get him. seriously, luke needed help a lot. he was after all "only a boy" for most of the trilogy.

    i'm not sure when rey needing help will make her a damsel in distress... i would point out she managed to break out of her cell on her own at the end of the film. before then, she didn't know she could use the force. i don't think she needs to be invulnerable. i mean girls are supposed to be able to relate to her character or something.

    i really hope rey and poe don't have a romance. i think i'd have to throw up again. unless he dies on a fighter pilot mission? *hopeful*
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-04-2016 at 03:04 AM.

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    i hope kylo ren isn't gay because i'm doing the str8 girl thing you like to talk about.
    Idk, you are and you aren't. It's 'straight girl' in the sense he's eviiillll but he also has this sissy/omega male face. Appreciating that (or at least it not being enough of a contributing factor that actively turns you off) is like yaoi/lesbian ness or something. =D



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    i've changed my mind on a lot of this and put green notes throughout my thread. i can only revel in how ridiculous i am. mainly i decided i didn't like the story where the villain is killed (though he may be defeated). and i was struggling with how irredeemable his character appears. this was my solution to that:

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra
    i now think i would prefer either a partial redemption story or a full one (though the full one would be less believable and more difficult to pull off). i would also prefer the character not die by the end.

    'partial redemption' btw = move to more neutral alignment while 'full redemption' = return to "the light." i think that for the latter especially, the only way for this to work is if rey actually turns to the dark side like kylo wants (end of 2nd film) and then turns herself back in the 3rd (redeems herself). since she already is the most amazing character ever i'm sure she can manage this.

    i was thinking about how rey is clearly (unquestionably) "tempted" by the dark side at the end of the novel. it also says in the novel that she is so angry at kylo ren that she must fight him (she's using anger, which isn't a light side path). after she has defeated him she hears a dark voice in her mind urging her to kill him, but she declines to follow it realizing that she is on the edge of the dark side and that if she gives into the voice she will fall. this doesn't have to mean that temptations to the dark side will end for her. it could actually signify an *awakening* to the dark side. it's even possibly the "awakening" began earlier in the interrogation scene.

    this would also give luke some reason for reluctance in training her later if he knows that she can master both sides... it's the thing that he foresees that gives him hope because in order to pull kylo back into the light, someone has to travel into the dark and reach him there and then guide him out by example (i've decided). however, you run the risk that this someone will stay put on the dark side instead, greatly exacerbating things (it could mean that evil would consume the galaxy for a very long time in the worst case). hence luke is wary (but he's already decided...) this is why luke has waited btw. because he can't do this (he could kill kylo, but he can't save him). if luke went to the dark side, he fears he won't return. but rey *can* (she is the only one who can).

    another thing i'm fairly sure of is that rey is stronger with the force than kylo. this gives her the advantage. kylo is weak in character/identity (his deep internal feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness; his hatred of himself for being weak, pathetic or ineffectual) and if someone can show him how to resolve the crippling weakness in his psyche, he will follow that person (it's why he follows snoke). i've decided that this is his main weakness. it's why love won't redeem him like it did vader. his problem runs too deep for that. han gave him love (again) and it changed nothing (for all intents and purposes). i don't believe leia would be able to reach him either. he needs something more.
    the one issue i have with this is that it makes leia's decision to send han after kylo even *worse*. but i suppose she and luke are estranged so she doesn't know his "plan." also, han may have been doomed in every scenario except the one in which luke kills kylo himself (which luke missed his window if he wanted to save han). but the question of how many people have to die to save one comes even more into play, and han would then kind of have been sacrificed by luke as well as by leia. he never should have hung out with those two.

    this would also be an interesting take on the dark side vs. the light. luke out of compassion just won't kill kylo. and look at all the suffering that resulted from that.

    --

    i also like this in the sense that when luke left everything after kylo turned on him, he went looking for the first jedi temple... this is something ancient, perhaps before the jedi were so sterile in their "goodness" (as they were in eps. i-iii). it's a place you go when you are looking for an answer. it's not a standard answer or something that has been recently attempted. it's searching for an impossible answer when you have no hope and badly need some. that maybe if you return to the beginning (to an origin point) you can see a narrow way at last.

    i also like it because rey is a terribly independent person who has survived on her own for a very long time. she's used to doing the unlikely or impossible alone without help. she is well equipped to save herself.

    lastly, i couldn't work around the problem of why luke hasn't done anything. and why if he won't kill kylo himself would he expect rey to? coward much? in any case, if he's chosen to still hold out hopes of saving kylo, by training rey, he's actually leaving it up to her regardless of what he advises. i'm having issues if rey is just a character who carries out luke's master plan and this is starting to annoy me... it may better be that luke says that at this point there's no choice but to kill kylo, and if rey comes up with the more magical solution herself as events unfold. she needs to be the main protagonist, obviously. this would resolve the issue with leia's terrible guidance to han, which i made worse by having this all be luke's plan.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-09-2016 at 10:43 PM.

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    http://makingstarwars.net/2016/01/th...-cantina-cast/ hehe

    thoughts/response:

    - the jedi *don't* aim to be sociopaths lol. it's more like non-attachment in buddhism. i realize it was kind of a joke.

    - when obi-wan warned luke and told him to bury his feelings deep down, it was referring to the imminent confrontation with vader & the emperor. he said that luke's insights served him well but they could be made to serve the emperor. he needed to fortify his psychological boundaries. indeed, later, vader begins reading luke's mind and using what he finds to try to manipulate him. the emperor was busy interpreting luke's emotional state too throughout the scene so as to encourage his anger and hate. these are the sorts of things obi-wan was warning about.

    - kylo throws the temper tantrums when things don't go his way. honestly it reminds me of when han (or lando) is trying to get the hyperdrive on the falcon to work and it shorts out again... and being all "it's not my fault..." while leia is all criticizing about it kind of. it's the frustration surrounding an expected level of performance. i think every time kylo fails, he feels like han again and he hates that. he hates not being good enough to live up to the huge legacy he expects of himself. setbacks can cause him to feel inadequate to the massive undertaking before him. i agree though that he *tries* to be very controlled often and has a certain image he's trying to embody, and that takes a lot of psychological energy while meanwhile the steam builds up inside until breaking point.

    - in the book 'bloodlines' leia hadn't forgiven vader either. even though luke's story about how in his final moments vader became anakin again touched her, and although she understood what it meant to luke, her experiences with vader were not something she could just forgive. he tortured her trying to get the location of the rebel base; held her in place as she watched the destruction of her homeworld; tortured han and sold him to his enemy; cut luke's arm off and nearly killed him... basically he *embodies* the empire to her and all of the suffering it caused and the billions of deaths.

    - i agree about the tentative love from han & leia and that neither of them are the most affectionate people (though they're not bereft of it either...) i also agree that han & leia could have associated him with vader any time he used his abilities as a kid (especially if it was for selfish reasons, and little kids especially can be really selfish). and yeah, he would have felt those feelings of fear or doubt from them quite acutely. he would have felt that they were hesitant to fully love him or give all of themselves to him; that they were distant or unavailable. it works with why he is such a mess--oscillating between being a competent bad guy and a whiny screw up (he has internalized their doubting of him and so he doubts himself). his sense of entitlement ("you know i can take whatever i want") is kind of his way of compensating for this sort of tentative love & attention from his parents. he won't be denied again. he'll just take what he needs from people if they won't give it, as that way his needs will be met and whatever reasons they have for withholding won't matter. by feeling entitled to whatever he wants from others, he doesn't have to suffer the hurt of inconstancy or rejection. the problem/pain has been bypassed.

    - his parents and uncle also kept important information from him: that darth vader was his grandfather. in 'bloodlines,' he apparently doesn't know this yet (until it gets out publicly). i kind of suspect he might have already known because there are other ways he could find out (the force, maybe snoke). but what's interesting is that by not telling him and then fearing he could be like vader himself, han & leia kind of set it up so he'll later feel like darth vader would be the only one who could understand him (because they are alike). it leaves vader as the only one he can relate to (they can be evil together in his mind). it's also interesting in that i think interrogations are really important to kylo because no one can keep information from him anymore. no one will keep secrets from him ever again and every time he succeeds in getting the information he wants from his victims, it is like a reassurance.

    - i like the comment about either wanting people to be clearly afraid of him or clearly not. if someone is afraid of him, perhaps he sees it as that person is against him. this could make sense with the interrogation scene with rey. not entirely sure he wants to be enemies yet, he doesn't like her fear of him. otoh, he wishes hux who he despises would fear him, but he just won't (how infuriating).

    - it would make sense that leia & han both might not want him learning from luke (until things began going seriously wrong with him) because maybe neither of them liked the force and being trained in it that much (not just han).

    - agree that he is somehow seeking approval from vader (even though the relationship is just in his mind)... if he finishes what vader started he will win approval... vader would accept him

    - i don't think han and leia were "helicopter parents" or that they were smothering. they were more distant and at times, even negligent. han likes to run around the galaxy and be involved in "schemes" and leia was very involved in her political work. it would often feel like his parents were unavailable, and not just emotionally unavailable--actually not there. maybe they did try to settle down at first and be a family, but i'm not sure how long it would have lasted because han & leia also tend to grate on one another when in too close proximity for too long. both are active and adventuresome. i did think that leia was burnt out at the end of 'return of the jedi' in a way. a lot of shit had happened and she seemed more serious and saddened. but she eventually got her spunk back.
    i guess it depends on what is meant though by "helicopter parent," because i could see leia especially as wanting to control the structures in kylo's life to make sure he is raised properly...

    - ugh @ this guy and his weird ideas about borderline personality like being "not quite a personality disorder because it's on the border?" flsajflasdj i thought the idea was that borderlines have this ambivalence to them... they love you, they hate you, they love you, they hate you... it's this mad oscillation between opposing extremes and feeling *equally* intensely about each. frankly, this can kind of fit with how kylo feels about han (but there's not enough to prove this from the film, imo... it's a possibility though).
    although the adam smith guy kind of writes off kylo inflicting pain on himself as being a sith thing (which it is when he's pounding on his wound), i think there actually might be something to this. i noticed in the rey interrogation scene, before she wakes up, he's not simply sitting on the floor, but crouching on his legs. perhaps he was simply doing an exercise, but i know that position gets really painful really fast. but, yes, it's true the sith use pain to fuel their power, so i guess it doesn't matter or count.

    - i agree that overall borderline pd doesn't seem too fitting because the attention-seeking isn't prominent enough. there is approval seeking (both from dead vader & snoke and i could imagine it used to be from his parents & luke before it failed). also as "emo" as he is, i think overall he tries to hide all of the emotions as much as possible, which seems opposite of what someone with borderline pd would do?

    - "he's trying to believe that the dark side will give him what he wants, but deep down he knows it won't." i think that's how it began, but by the time of the film, he's pretty committed. but i guess we'll have to wait, as how killing han affected him in terms of his relationship to the dark side, will matter a lot in this. and i wouldn't call him *balanced* between the dark & the light. he's a mass murderer--he's pretty clearly on the dark side. it's just the light torments him constantly.

    - although i agree that vader was more "attached" to the emperor (devoted to him almost) than kylo appears to be to snoke (their relationship is more business), i don't think you can use his lack of attachments to make a case because this is how people on the dark side of the force operate often. sith usually don't love (dark side). you might as well revisit the discussion about causing himself pain (dismissed because of how sith use pain) if you're going to go there. i would say that there isn't really enough information yet to determine this. and ugh, he doesn't call snoke 'master' because they are not actually sith (or jedi). i'm sure if snoke wanted to be called 'master' he'd get kylo to do so. (the emperor wanted to be called that btw.)
    it is true that it apparently doesn't hurt kylo to know that snoke is only using him--he's using snoke as well. so i agree (as i said) that there isn't a lot of attachment in this relationship. still, snoke does at least feign sympathy at times, like when he told kylo that he's never faced such a difficult task as killing han (he acknowledges that this will be emotionally difficult for kylo to carry out). whether he actually has some concern for kylo or is just faking it doesn't matter because he clearly determined he needed to show some sympathy (provide some emotional support).
    they keep going on about how he didn't say anything in response to han warning him that snoke is using him... did he need to actually say something? he was clearly thinking about it (searching his feelings, as it were), and he found he agreed with han (he accepted the warning). i thought this was clear on his face. it wasn't a "brush off" or a lack of acknowledgment.

    - yeah. i too thought he would eventually kill snoke (if the film makers allow). poor snoke, does he not know the dangers of patricidal maniacs? snoke is the closest thing kylo has to a *living* father figure now that he's already killed his real dad. kylo would like to kill luke too, i assume. he would like to kill any male authority figure, or fatherly figure really. he's got the dad hate bad. snoke is definitely in danger.

    - totally agree snoke was grooming kylo, and apparently from a young age. agree that snoke is the only person "feeding him" at least in the way he wants to be fed. snoke makes him feel special and highly valuable (worthy). for the time being, snoke's approval means a lot to kylo (he *needs* it).

    - did kylo goad that tekka guy into making him want to kill him? i'm trying to remember. i think that kylo in general has to build up his hate to kill people or harm them. maybe that's what he was doing with finn when he shouted "traitor!" - trying to remind himself why he should hate finn enough to kill him. and even then, he didn't actually kill him. i think the truth is that kylo feels a small amount of compassion for finn (he let him go in the very beginning of the film). it's easy for him to order the deaths of the nameless and faceless, but it is more difficult for him to kill anyone he feels a personal connection to? but this doesn't matter because he is a killer and he's mean. and he hated that san tekka guy. i think he wanted to kill him and just wanted a reason so he'd feel totally satisfied and justified in doing it. kylo didn't like tekka (this elder/authority figure/family friend) trying to dig his warm fingers in kylo's cold heart. it's the justification kylo needs to cut the man down.

    - totally agree with the vader is cultivating an ant farm thing (though not sure i'd use that analogy in particular) and just killing the workers who are inefficient. if you suck at your job and can't do what vader needs done, you die. you get precious few chances before this. kylo otoh *is* just trying to gain dark side points. to be a "good performer" he needs to kill people, so he can get stronger with the dark side and more powerful. this is what he's supposed to be doing in his commitment to this path. if he becomes strong enough, he can finish darth vader's noble work and win his approval at last (finally be worthy). (yes, it's goal oriented--he is trying to achieve something and this is how to go about it.)

    - i agree with kylo seeing rey as someone who could possibly understand him (another reason he doesn't like her fear). he is seeking connection.

    - whoever was talking seems to have an unreasonable idea about how much "good" is in kylo. like, i think he's saying that kylo has far too much goodness, is trying to drive it away but can't? i can't believe that because of all the killing he does (especially han). i think that kylo also has a lot of cruelty in him. but this really depends since the mystical dark side is involved. when kylo's face is overtaken by some ugly cruel look, when he is being mean, is it the dark side being channeled through him unevenly, or is it simply revealing the true ugliness of who he is? i think that the film makers could actually go either way on this and make it make sense. when anakin kills people in ep. iii he is crying, or completely detached (trying not to feel how much it hurts him to do it)... and some of these people are nameless to him (enemies who he's been fighting all along in the war) but it still hurts even with them. it was a bit different with obi-wan since in his deluded way anakin felt personally betrayed by obi-wan (and by all the jedi).
    kylo, otoh, exhibits decidedly more sadism than anakin did in ep. iii.

    - hmm. i do think the dark side eats away at people (consumes them). it wants to take everything they are slowly as they feed it the pain and suffering of their victims (and their corpses & their souls). it's just sheer destructive power. it's not really that those who wield it are "imperfect vessels" but that its very nature is to consume & destroy. its practitioners tend to disregard their own well being (they give themselves to the dark side and to terrible desires). so they will lose limbs for it, fight intensely (never stop) even if they are bleeding to death, use or increase their pain to accomplish their objectives, kill their loved ones even though it hurts & destroys them psychologically. they are willing to sacrifice themselves to it/destroy themselves for it.
    the dark side isn't a parasite. it's simply part of the spectrum of existence. the reason why it takes someone over rather fast is because of the violence. killing or destroying (out of hatred, vengeance, rage) are acts that draw on the dark side and the more you draw on it, the more it flows in you; and the more it flows in you the more you want to kill and destroy (vicious cycle). i'm not sure engagement with the light side is any less a positive-feedback loop. kylo for instance fears being seduced by the light (from where he is on the dark side, the light is the same... if you give into it, it may take you quickly and so you must resist the "temptation").
    the dark side isn't "a drug" either. the force is "spiritual."

    - so sick of the rey being luke's daughter idea. if they do that i will turn to the dark side myself. it's just too annoying.

    - lol at kylo becoming a functioning decent person once again. he didn't *want* to be a decent person. if he were to go back to "the light side" with his current personality, he'll just go right back. he's using it to compensate for or fill in some pretty serious weaknesses in his personality that he wouldn't be able to stand without the dark side. the feelings of inadequacy run too deep. and he has rejected those who could try to help him with it: han, leia, luke.

    - i don't think that palpatine was necessarily always evil... but i don't know for sure of course. i do think a lot of the people who become strong masters on the dark side were already psychopaths before they learned how to use their force abilities. however, the path that kylo is on now could end in becoming like palpatine or snoke (although perhaps he is not strong enough with the force to become as terrible as palpatine). you can say he has "too much good" in him *now* but this is an ongoing evolution--and he is actively trying to rid himself of all of his goodness.

    - obviously "redemption" when it comes to these stories doesn't mean you are somehow off the hook for all your crimes. maybe it might to certain people who are strong with the light side of the force; but naturally most people wouldn't see it that way. although what is rather amusing is that the dark side of the force has often arisen in this lawful evil way involving punishing people for their "treachery" with torture and death. so really, if vader had survived after the war and the new republic called for his head, the justice vs. vengeance question certainly comes up. and which side of the force would his execution actually feed or be a response from? (the dark side)
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-17-2016 at 06:17 AM. Reason: saving changes over time

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    Default rey & finn again

    (i just have to keep elaborating upon these things and forming them)


    rey is a wayward lost child of the empire, born a decade after its fall to an imperial family on a mysterious planet in a nebula. everyone who lives on this planet comes from the empire and only those particularly loyal to the empire in the galaxy even know this world exists. it also probably relies heavily on resources from the galaxy and may be barely habitable. perhaps there isn't enough light from stars and so it is always in dusk. i imagine it as being quite large; maybe 2-3x the size of earth. much of it is uninhabitable.

    i don't know how long it has been inhabited--if it began during the reign of the empire or before. the culture of the empire is the culture on this world, so everyone who grows up here is thoroughly conditioned to agree with the empire's values. security comes from being ruled by a dictator strong in the dark side of the force (almost like a god, although culturally they would not believe in gods). it's a very ordered and lawful world, strict with harsh punishments. every family must give something to the empire (and later, the first order)--usually their children in one way or another. if the family breadwinner can achieve a high enough position, it betters his or her family (this adds more reason to be willing to endure hardship or to die for the empire--it's not just for the cause, but for one's family at "home").

    it isn't good to be unusual or a non-conformist on this world or to have any special power. children who display force abilities are disposed of and families are not to object or they will be disposed of too (even those in the family who did not object will be killed). despite this deterrent, the bond between parent & child is strong by nature and although it is a minority, throughout the years many families have tried to conceal a force sensitive kid or to flee to the known galaxy to save their child. this is treason and the empire (and later first order) will hunt these people down and kill them. most don't get away.

    during the reign of the empire, darth sidious would have wanted this law because he didn't want anyone alive who could challenge his power. if this world had a sith overlord before sidious, the same would apply most likely. snoke may have run things slightly differently--perhaps he might evaluate force sensitive children to see if they could be among his knights. i imagine that his knights are usually lower level force users (they are not as strong with the force as really any of the characters we've seen in the movies) and thus snoke doesn't consider them too much of a threat to him. there can only be one knight with substantial power and ability with the force (kylo ren) who will lead the others and keep them under control.

    unfortunately, being such a natural with the force, rey probably exhibited many of her abilities as a small child and it was clear she was way too powerful. her family attempted to conceal her but her abilities would come out automatically, sometimes at bad times. perhaps there were even tests all children had to take to reveal these sorts of abilities. in any case, once the secret was out, her family had to act quickly as the authorities would soon arrive to kill rey. her parents didn't need to ask if she'd be spared because it would be terribly obvious that she wasn't a low level force user--she was exceptional. thus they tried to flee to save her and themselves. if rey had any siblings, they would have fled too.

    coming from this mysterious world in the nebula, they knew very little of the galaxy--they certainly didn't know enough to tell them where they should go. but they did know of worlds that had been prominent in the battles the empire fought, such as endor and jakku. perhaps because of the battle of jakku and because they knew it wasn't a very populous or important world it occurred to them to hide her there. the graveyard of ships from the battle of jakku made them feel it was a familiar place--the remains of the empire are there, it is almost in a way "like home."

    they didn't intend to leave rey there permanently but dropped her there while they either tried to shake their pursuers or tried to find a better place their family could hide. i'm not sure why they left her with unkar plutt. maybe he has a charming side (even though he looks like a scum bag). maybe he had someone else with him at the time, a human who was charming and appeared trustworthy (a proper swindler who could mirror their unspoken attitudes back to them). rey's family was naive about how things worked in the galaxy however, so the details may not matter. coming from a highly lawful and orderly world they may have subconsciously expected things from plutt inc. that just weren't there. besides, they would be back. also they had money, and they thought what they paid plutt would ensure rey's safety and well-being for long enough.

    sadly, shortly after leaving rey on jakku, operatives of the budding (not yet publicly declared) first order found her family and killed them. it's possible it happened in space and their ship was destroyed and then it was assumed that rey had been on it as well. the empire/first order is apparently good at fucking these things up. and who knows, they could have hired mercenaries in the galaxy to do it even. at the time rey was left on jakku, the first order was still a secret, so it's not like they could send an imperial fleet after rey's family.

    and so rey is left to live in the ruins of the empire, her home an imperial walker, her livelihood scavenging parts from downed star destroyers (well, and the other ships from the battle of jakku).

    ps: rey's family wiped her memory. i like to think her dad did it. maybe he was some sort of imperial psychiatrist (aka psy-tech). maybe he even tried to recondition rey at first hoping it would make her force abilities disappear. he would have wiped/repressed much of her memory before they fled because he couldn't have her blabbering on about where she had come from. not only would that possibly endanger her but it could endanger the empire/first order (as much as he's committed treason by running, he is actually still largely loyal).

    as for loyalty, i think it would be interesting if rey's parents also had to give up a child to the first order years before rey had been born. this initial hurt had led to feelings of bitterness beneath it all even as they tried to remind themselves that the first order needed soldiers. it's just that rey's dad may have had ambitions for that first kid beyond being a stormtrooper (no one wanted their kids to become stormtroopers, it was work for clones). when rey started showing her abilities and her parents realized they'd have to give up a second child for the first order (only this one wouldn't become a lowly soldier, this one would just be killed), it was too much. they'd suffered this once already and they couldn't suffer it again, their allegiance to the first order be damned.

    i was also thinking that rey may have felt it when her family died through the force and that may have plunged her force abilities back into dormancy... the connection with her family was lost and she reacted by immediately denying it to herself and suppressing that which would give her the continual reminder that they were gone. she made herself believe they were still coming back and wouldn't let go of that. (maz later tells her that she knows the truth already.)

    maybe later when she begins dreaming of luke's island, the underlying feeling is looking for a new connection... a new family or home. at these times she's so lonely she can't sleep and the island quells that loneliness.

    ---

    finn was another force sensitive child from the world in the nebula. after the empire fell they didn't have access to cloning facilities but still needed to rebuild their troops. thus families on the fascist world had to give up a kid to what would become the first order. most families were proud to do so; there were very few treacherous refusals. fortunately for finn, his abilities are low level and were dormant. tests did not detect them and his behavior didn't indicate them. however, his abilities help him to be rather impervious to the rigorous conditioning and brainwashing he was put through. they also help him to find resourceful solutions in battle at the spur of the moment. they may also aid him in how good he is at reading people.

    as he was approaching adulthood, captain phasma noticed his incredible potential. this is why she didn't report his numerous offenses. as revealed in finn's backstory, he would find ways to accomplish his mission *and* save his comrades (the first order wants you to let the weak links be killed, not to try to save all your team). finn was unwilling to sacrifice weak or incompetent soldiers in his unit and tried to cover for this by passing the training missions with flying colors anyway. why should his superiors care about his methods when he was always successful?

    his first real mission wasn't the one in the film--there was one before it. he was unwilling to kill unarmed people, and phasma didn't report him. she was hoping she could get him to start killing because it seemed such a waste to get rid of someone with such promise. even when he still failed to kill anyone on jakku, phasma kept it to herself. he was her project and she still had hopes of turning him around. this is amusing because since phasma is adamant that escaping with poe was finn's first and only offense (she's even more adamant about it in the novel) and that there weren't any prior signs of non-conformity, hux is left baffled as to what is wrong with their stormtrooper training program.

    then there is kylo ren who possibly detected that finn had some force sensitivity and was considering adding him to the knights of ren (maybe a vague consideration, as finn isn't the center of kylo ren's universe). he too noticed that finn had disobeyed orders on jakku and did nothing about it. after finn helps poe escape, ren is left cursing his inaction. however, like phasma he puts it all on hux and hux's flawed stormtrooper training program (lol). perhaps later in the film ren is so emotional about finn being a traitor because he's displacing how pissed he is at himself for his failure onto finn. perhaps he even had originally felt some accursed sentiment for finn. ren might be able to relate to the "weakness" of not being able to kill because he's always fighting with the light in himself. to see finn doing the same could have given him a stab of compassion.

    the only reason i was still considering that kylo ren could have been aware of some force sensitivity in finn and considering adding him to the knights is because of how he didn't go to snoke once he sensed an awakening in the force. he wouldn't have even brought it up had snoke not done so? why not? i was wondering if he was afraid at first that finn had been "the awakening" and didn't want to reveal his failure (and thus weakness) to snoke. he tells snoke he is immune to the light but he knows that beneath, snoke senses how strong the light pulls at him.

    it's of course also possible this had nothing to do with finn. if kylo eventually plans to overthrow snoke he might want to keep certain things to himself. his offer to train rey at the end of the film may suggest that he wanted to use her to help him defeat snoke.

    it's also possible this doesn't even matter: why should kylo bring it up when clearly snoke would have sensed it anyway?

    ps: it's also possible finn didn't come from the world in the nebula but from one in the galaxy that had been aligned with the empire. it would be more risky to take kids from worlds in the galaxy though because it would need to be kept secret. the new republic govt can't know.


    oh and one other thing: i think at the end of the film, after kylo ren threw rey into that tree, finn actually hurled his blaster into the woods? i guess this was a gesture to ren that no one else would be firing blasters at him so he didn't need to go batshit immediately. besides the thing would clearly be useless against him. the conversation went like this:

    *kylo shows up with lightsaber activated* "we're not done yet"
    *rey tries to use blaster*
    *kylo throws her into tree* "no blasters allowed!"
    *finn hurls his blaster into trees* "got it. no blasters."

    as finn is tending to rey, kylo gets impatient and begins swinging his lightsaber loudly: "come out and face me, bitch." i thought this would be odd if kylo now thought finn to be unarmed. so i thought maybe kylo knew he had the skywalker lightsaber and was inviting finn to a duel. he could have known if he'd earlier received reports that finn had been using the weapon on takodana.

    i thought it wasn't easy wielding a lightsaber and if you can do so you probably have abilities with the force? so regardless of whether or not kylo knew that finn was force sensitive before takodana, he suspects it by now. the fight with finn is probably partially to check to see what sorts of abilities finn has (how strong is he with the force). <--another reason for not killing him


    but anyway, this argument is very compelling for finn having force ability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IermTDPmZpc

    the actual scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4E3aayPCjw (see 1:20)

    i kind of want to take this as proof because this was a deliberate choice in the movie. it deliberately alludes to the alderaan destruction & obi-wan scene from 'a new hope' (that *had* to have been on purpose). i thought that finn had been headed onto that ship, heard the screams, and that's what led him to turn & look up at the sky in the first place.

    (it is odd how everyone on takodana happened to be outside looking at the sky though, um... i mean the planet venus could burn up right now and i'd still be sitting in my apt as though nothing happened. maybe maz sensed inevitable doom with her force abilities, shrieked "OMG THE REPUBLIC!" and rushed outside, and like everyone followed???)
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-26-2016 at 07:45 PM.

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