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Thread: Cognitive Type Theory

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    Default Cognitive Type Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This forum needs a good uproar.

    and I am "officially" welcoming you.
    Well... ok! Here goes.



    I'd like to introduce you to the new model on the block, it's called "Cognitive Type" and is a slowly budding one... with the hopes of entirely revamping the existing typology culture by addressing all the existing problems of repeatability and unfalsifiability. It also aims to be the first model to empirically verify the existence of types, and establish it as part of science.

    The theory was officially published as a 350 page paperback/eBook a few months ago, but over half of the book has been made available online at: http://cognitivetype.com/

    There's a walkthrough of the theory's basics at: cognitivetype.com/theory/




    And a full visual signals walkthrough can be found here:




    As well as type profiles for the 16 types:




    And lastly, a growing celebrity database which can be found at: http://cognitivetype.com/celebrity/

    How do these 16 profiles compare to your own experience with the types?
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-09-2016 at 09:59 AM.

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    Hooray! I endorse you doing something with Socionics regardless of how it goes. Good on you!

    You seem to know a bit about what psychology says about facial reactions. Are you pulling on any psychology research to support stuff of what you say?

    You mention you want to make it falsifiable and empirically verifiable. What's the plan for collecting evidence and proving stuff?

    The video and design is very nice!

    Some parts of the website are perhaps a bit overly complex:
    I must first begin by stating one premise; that complex systems are a congealing of smaller linear systems (like vectors) which each have but one operation. A system, however complex, is at its roots comprehensible as a collection of pieces which each have an individual function.

    If we take the human body as an example, we see that it is comprised of individual but interactive systems such as the cardiovascular, digestive, endocrine, skeletal, muscular and epidermal. These systems themselves are comprised of sub-systems, such as the digestive system’s stomach, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, intestines – which are divisible further into cells, each also being its own sub-system.

    Magnifying further we see additional sub-systems within those cells, such as ribosomes which help produce certain molecular structures. However, once we magnify to the molecular level we begin to see things differently. While each molecule can be magnified further and seen as yet another system at the subatomic level, molecules play a vector-like role in the body.
    Personally, for me, this explanation doesn't add much insight into things. For us non-biologists, it's a bit daunting to see that as an explanation, because the difficulty in comprehending the message is greater than the benefits in understanding your point. Perhaps just a warning to aim for simplicity and transparency over complexity and verboseness.

    I associate with many of the TiNe characteristics! I haven't read the others yet, so idk whether I also associate with the others.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Well... ok! Here goes.
    Hahah, cool, thanks!

    I will comment once I have some coffee and wake up.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    How do these 16 profiles compare to your own experience with the types?
    They seem like a dumb-downed, commercialized version of Socionics that gets rid of its most powerful ingredients (intertype relationships and Model A), and replaces them with vague behavioral descriptions in the style of MBTI. The descriptions do seem for the most part to be based on socionics but they are not tied explicitly to the theory, like valued functions, etc., and many concepts have been renamed, apparently for marketing purposes.

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    @Sandoval

    Valein

    Going by your descriptions, I used to be a delinquent, which I attributed to being sx first, but now I am more balanced. I have had my "guru" phase but it often leads to ignoring physical reality which isn't good for me. I probably slip in and out of it though.

    I don't really match up with any of the images but I did relate to your beta eyes post. I can't seem to visualize myself in the same way others see me. I will pm you some pics, and if you feel inclined, you could maybe point out any areas that you feel match or don't match my self type. Not that I would change my type but it is interesting and it might help me VI others, I kind of suck at VI and go by vibes/energy.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    @ClownsandEntropy -

    I think you're right... I've taken that bit out.
    Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    You seem to know a bit about what psychology says about facial reactions. Are you pulling on any psychology research to support stuff of what you say?
    I've primarily studied the works of Paul Ekman, who shifted the scientific consensus away from facial expressions being something fully contrived by culture, and verified that facial expressions have a common human basis. There are at least 6-7 "universal" facial expressions such as "Joy", "Anger", "Sadness", "Surprise", "Disgust", that naturally result from the neurological experience of those emotions.

    In the late 1800s, psychologist/physician William James also proposed that eye-movements indicated thought processes, and modern theories like NLP have tried to give this structure, with questionable success. The field has not been very thoroughly explored. So contemporary material available is quite limited, from what I've fond anyway.

    You mention you want to make it falsifiable and empirically verifiable. What's the plan for collecting evidence and proving stuff?
    The first step was to finally establish a consensual method of identifying Type. We see this V.I. give a pretty high degree of repeatability in those who learn the method.

    But the second step is to see if type matches up to any neural processes. I'm hoping on re-enacting a variation of Dario Nardi's pilot study, but using V.I. as the mode of type identification, and see what emerges in EEG. The subject will be video recorded alongside their brain activity being recorded, and I'll be looking for what happens neurologically when they do certain things with their face (like eyes darting up, scowling, etc).

    I am actually an artist by trade, but EEG devices are legal to use without any licensing. But the plan, if I do find something, is to present my findings to other labs and see if they would reproduce those results in more strictly controlled conditions.

    I associate with many of the TiNe characteristics! I haven't read the others yet, so idk whether I also associate with the others.
    Cool!
    Sorry the profiles are kinda sparse right now.
    They were all formed from scratch via real subjects/celebs identified by the visual cues mentioned. ( @thehotelambush ) No fancy theory acrobatics, or previous profiles used. Everything in the profiles can be questions, verified or falsified by examining those who align with the cues.

    I can demonstrate how this works, too. Show is better than tell.
    Just pick a random celeb and I can break down their signals and resulting psychology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    They were all formed from scratch via real subjects/celebs identified by the visual cues mentioned. ( @thehotelambush ) No fancy theory acrobatics, or previous profiles used. Everything in the profiles can be questions, verified or falsified by examining those who align with the cues.

    I can demonstrate how this works, too. Show is better than tell.
    Just pick a random celeb and I can break down their signals and resulting psychology.
    You realize you are not the first to come up with a "fool-proof" VI system, right? Plenty of others have done this, and probably all of their visual cues are completely different from yours, because they're not based on reality. This should be moved to Viewpoints because it's not socionics really.

    But ok, I pick Alexander Grothendieck. What type is he according to your system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You realize you are not the first to come up with a "fool-proof" VI system, right? Plenty of others have done this, and probably all of their visual cues are completely different from yours, because they're not based on reality.
    Well it's not "fool-proof", as the method admits to some ~5% to ~10% of samples not completely fitting expected projections. But the larger percentage do seem to correlate very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This should be moved to Viewpoints because it's not socionics really.
    Ah, I didn't know where to place this thread, sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    But ok, I pick Alexander Grothendieck. What type is he according to your system?
    I can't find any videos of him, and few photos that are of any good quality. Perhaps I should specify, any celeb with a decent level of existing media. =P Preferably one-on-one interviews where they're not concealing their face in some way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    I can't find any videos of him, and few photos that are of any good quality. Perhaps I should specify, any celeb with a decent level of existing media. =P Preferably one-on-one interviews where they're not concealing their face in some way.
    ok, try Charlie Rose then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You realize you are not the first to come up with a "fool-proof" VI system, right? Plenty of others have done this, and probably all of their visual cues are completely different from yours, because they're not based on reality. This should be moved to Viewpoints because it's not socionics really.

    But ok, I pick Alexander Grothendieck. What type is he according to your system?
    I let him VI me and I can see why he chose what he did for me (Endavin but he also saw Ni/Se eyes in me) even though it is not my self type in socionics. His system is not socionics, obviously, so I am fine with being typed by his guidelines. There is something very vaguely reminiscent of podlair (without the mumbo jumbo of pod people) in the methods but I can't quite place what makes them feel similar to me, other than I was told that Podlair almost exclusively types males as Ni equivalents and their female counterparts feeling types. I don't think that is the case with his methods but I noticed all the Ni/Fe/Valein celebrities, listed, are male. His site is not complete though and they plan more profiles.

    I like Sandoval's way of explaining with some detail why I VI Fi/Se in his system. I appreciate he took the time to do it for me since he knew it was purely out for curiosity and he didn't have to. He is very open to suggestions/input and made it clear he was not trying to box me in or be dismissive of my self typings.

    The problem with most people and VI is that they are not open to evolving as new information is taken in and refining their theories. He made it pretty clear that they would pretty much evolve and refine as real world data dictates. He never once tried to force his perspective of my type, which was cool. I am more open to that than someone telling me who they think I am.

    I can't help but be a bit flattered that he put me in, with what I feel, is good company. He also pointed out things about me that I thought were negative physical characteristics (like the sound of my voice, which I hate but I didn't tell him that). He presented his analysis of me in a much better light than I view myself and didn't come off fake or flattering while doing it. Was pretty professional about it. Overall positive experience interacting with him.

    Fi/Se aka Edavin

    Name Development
    Jacqueline Kennedy Seelie
    Marilyn Monroe Seelie
    Audrey Hepburn Seelie
    Janet Jackson Indie Artist
    Michael Jackson Indie Artist
    Bjork Seelie/Indie Artist
    Kanye West Unseelie
    Princess Diana Frances Unseelie
    Sonny Moore Indie Artist
    Liv Tyler Harmonious Seelie

    Last edited by Aylen; 05-10-2016 at 03:43 AM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ok, try Charlie Rose then.
    Ah, he's someone I've looked at in the past.





    Charlie Rose fits into a wider panorama of news anchors/politicians with a similar tendency and disposition. Among them are:

    Bill O'Reily



    Tim Russert



    Donald Trump




    First, I should say that despite how mean they look, this correlation isn't about emotional disposition. These four have very different personal beliefs and political attitudes -- but all have a multitude of parallels. In each we find a very straightforward, "to-the-point" communication style, a logistical way of thinking (Te), a sincere [nevermind how its received] expressivity and an understanding of economics, world affairs and global systems.

    The same could be said of many TeSi and SiTe politicians too, and indeed there is crossover. I believe the above four are TeNi types. O'Reily and Trump are what I refer to as "fervent eccentrics". These are TeNi with brash Te which is less apologetic and is unafraid to run over other people for the preservation of their logistical agenda. Their Ni gives them a linearity of perspective, and a certain convergence of ideas; a narrowing of worldview.

    The other two (Charlie Rose and Tim Russert) are what I call "balanced" Judgment types. In the posture of all these four, we find the qualities of rigidity, a contained posture and accentuated motions. But Tim and Charlie are more mellowed out in this respect. They could almost pass for Ji-lead types. They ask interviews with a lot of questions, are receptive to a dialogue, etc. But they still remain decisive and often aim to get their interviewers to delineate the position they stand on and to state it clearly.

    As seen below:



    Ironically it's really hard to get an interview where Charlie talks about himself, as he's the one always doing the interviewing. But for example, we have:

    0:02 + Contained body posture (J)
    0:06 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:11 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:12 - Eyes Disengage Down + Freezing (Ji)
    0:14 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:19 + Ni eyes (lowered top eyelid + raised eyebrows)
    0:21 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:25 - Head Jittering (Je)
    0:39 - Private Fi laughter
    0:41 - Accentuated Headnod

    He hardly ever moves except when coming out deliberately to make a statement. His entire demeanor is governed by exacting emphasis of speech and his body (Je). Even when he asks questions, they are definitive and narrow questions - rather than imaginative or open-ended questions.

    This informs us that he is directed by a sense of judgment - by the exercise of arriving at precise understandings and quantifying/delineating reality.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-10-2016 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Ah, he's someone I've looked at in the past.





    Charlie Rose fits into a wider panorama of news anchors/politicians with a similar tendency and disposition. Among them are:

    Bill O'Reily



    Tim Russert



    Donald Trump




    First, I should say that despite how mean they look, this correlation isn't about emotional disposition. These four have very different personal beliefs and political attitudes -- but all have a multitude of parallels. In each we find a very straightforward, "to-the-point" communication style, a logistical way of thinking (Te), a sincere [nevermind how its received] expressivity and an understanding of economics, world affairs and global systems.

    The same could be said of many TeSi and SiTe politicians too, and indeed there is crossover. I believe the above four are TeNi types. O'Reily and Trump are what I refer to as "fervent eccentrics". These are TeNi with brash Te which is less apologetic and is unafraid to run over other people for the preservation of their logistical agenda. Their Ni gives them a linearity of perspective, and a certain convergence of ideas; a narrowing of worldview.

    The other two (Charlie Rose and Tim Russert) are what I call "balanced" Judgment types. In the posture of all these four, we find the qualities of rigidity, a contained posture and accentuated motions. But Tim and Charlie are more mellowed out in this respect. They could almost pass for Ji-lead types. They ask interviews with a lot of questions, are receptive to a dialogue, etc. But they still remain decisive and often aim to get their interviewers to delineate the position they stand on and to state it clearly.

    As seen below:



    Ironically it's really hard to get an interview where Charlie talks about himself, as he's the one always doing the interviewing. But for example, we have:

    0:02 + Contained body posture (J)
    0:06 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:11 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:12 - Eyes Disengage Down + Freezing (Ji)
    0:14 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:19 + Ni eyes (lowered top eyelid + raised eyebrows)
    0:21 - Accentuated Gesticulation (Je)
    0:25 - Head Jittering (Je)
    0:39 - Private Fi laughter
    0:41 - Accentuated Headnod

    He hardly ever moves except when coming out deliberately to make a statement. His entire demeanor is governed by exacting emphasis of speech and his body (Je). Even when he asks questions, they are definitive and narrow questions - rather than imaginative or open-ended questions.

    This informs us that he is directed by a sense of judgment - by the exercise of arriving at precise understandings and quantifying/delineating reality.
    Not terribly far off I guess. You're right that he is decisive and challenges people by asking probing questions until he gets the answer he wants. However I would say he is more interested in understanding people's internal motivations rather than in the quantifiable reality. I type him as EIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Not terribly far off I guess. You're right that he is decisive and challenges people by asking probing questions until he gets the answer he wants. However I would say he is more interested in understanding people's internal motivations rather than in the quantifiable reality. I type him as EIE.
    Oh how interesting. My typing of him used to be that, and I don't entirely discount that possibility. To counterbalance, for example, the above TeNi group, here we have a few FeNi:




    They have a similarly "hard" and unyielding look created by Ni in a subordinate role to Je (JeNi). They're all similarly exacting, rigid and calculated.

    But I get what you mean about having a more interpersonal motivation in the use of Je. I reasoned that this comes from a balance between Te and Fi, but the closer I look at his videos now, the more I'm not sure again. His outward expressions could emerge from Fe or Te, hence defaulting to "Je" in the cue breakdown...

    Drat, way to prove a point -- if the sample I analyze gets corrected on the spot. I'll need to keep him at JeNi until I find a younger interview of him, where his sags aren't interfering with his mouth, as this obstructs Fi-vs-Ti tension.



    edit: ohhhkay. this is embarrassing and not at all what i'd expect to happen in this thread, but you're actually right. I see the FeNi signals more clearly in his earlier videos. Such as:



    Skipping the intro bit:

    2:01 + Rigid/Contained Body (J)
    2:01 - Accentuated Nod (Je)
    2:01 - Ni Scowling (JeNi 'manic scowl')
    2:04 - Accentuated Nod (Je)
    2:06 - Accentuation + Warm Swelling (Fe)
    2:09 - Accentuation + Warm Swelling (Fe)
    2:13 - Accentuated Gesture (Je)
    skipping ahead to where we see him again
    4:01 - Accentuation + Warm Swelling (Fe)
    4:02 - Accentuation + Warm Swelling (Fe)
    4:05 + Rigid Body (J)
    4:07 - Accentuated Gestures (Je)

    His gestures lack the following Te qualities:

    - Te Snippiness
    - - Te fast acceleration + steady plateau
    - - Te dismissiveness
    - Fi accidental snarling
    - Fi asymmetrical expressions

    I think what threw me off was a mixture of his level of dispassion (he's not as animated/directive/charismatic as Fe usually is) and his facial anatomy seemed to indicate Fi tension but it was really just his old age. when younger he doesn't have that look.

    <-- very Beta look

    Either way, err, just to clarify that I'm not making this up... or shifting positions to fit the thread, these signals are actually outlined on the website, such as the Fe Warm Swelling ( http://cognitivetype.com/wp-content/.../04/fe_003.png ) and Te's snippiness. So it was moreso a practitioner error.

    I can give it another go at someone else, too.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-10-2016 at 07:11 PM.

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    @Aylen - Ah... yes, Pod'lair's left such a bad atmosphere toward the topic of V.I., which we're still suffering from. It's the dark past we don't like to remember.

    Back a few years back, their attempts to rally support failed miserably due to their headstrong assertion of power and accuracy. Others were interested in the prospect of V.I. in that time, but not in the way Pod'lair approached it. At least 3 groups that I know of started their own endeavors as a result; they felt that it was irrational to discard the whole topic based on one group's mishaps.

    It's quite a long and dramatic story, maybe for some other time.

    @ forum (just an observation) I find it so interesting to see a trend on this forum of a prominent Gamma (& some Beta) member-base. It's precisely what I'd expect from Socionics, which is a more tactile and quantifiable system and would attract others with a desire for a more textured model. Inversely, people I've encountered in other typology forums visually reveal a lot more Ne types, where members enjoy much more loose hypothesizing and free-for-all association forming (in the absence of a well designed architecture)

    The general aura of this forum is also very distinct; it's a lot more serious (but in that nonchalant way), immediate, and highly Te/Fi in its interactions. It feels a bit like walking into a mix between a sketchy alley-way and a victorian era aristocratic party.




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    I relate the most to the TiNe minimalist description even though visually I'm more like the TiSe. Is minimalism something both these types share when their Ti is very pronounced? If so, how would you differentiate between them in this case?

    By the way your system does seem like the most solid typology system I've seen yet. You do a pretty good job of outlining the specifics and avoiding overly generalized descriptions like those in MBTI. My step-father and mother astonishing match the TeNi and FiSe descriptions, with my step-father matching the TeNi Fervent Eccentric and my mother being a moderately unseelie haughty FiSe. I also know a girl at work whom I previously suspected as Gamma SF that looks identical to the one in the representational picture for FiSe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    By the way your system does seem like the most solid typology system I've seen yet. You do a pretty good job of outlining the specifics and avoiding overly generalized descriptions like those in MBTI. My step-father and mother astonishing match the TeNi and FiSe descriptions, with my step-father matching the TeNi Fervent Eccentric and my mother being a moderately unseelie haughty FiSe. I also know a girl at work whom I previously suspected as Gamma SF that looks identical to the one in the representational picture for FiSe.
    This is incredible, isn't it? I don't think a lot of people yet appreciate how groundbreaking this is and what it means.

    It means that -- despite us having completely different life exposures, families and experiences... possibly even from different countries of the world -- we have objectively observed similar correlations in our environment between people's appearances and their psychology.

    I'm very curious to know more about your family/friends and what they're like.

    We formed these deductions and profiles based on real-life people we knew in our area (but also celebs across the world) and it's able to accurately anticipate the psychology of others. Despite never knowing your family, these observations apparently transferred over. These are the sort of experiences our team members also have regularly. It opens the door to perhaps the first real attempt at quantification of type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I relate the most to the TiNe minimalist description even though visually I'm more like the TiSe. Is minimalism something both these types share when their Ti is very pronounced? If so, how would you differentiate between them in this case?
    Yeah, I've seen TiSe be minimalists too. What happens is the primary function (Ti) becomes so strong that the supportive function (Ne/Se) ceases to have as strong of an effect. This shows itself visually (by a lack of Pe cues) as well as psychologically. Consequently, these two types will each better fit the description of "Ti-dom" with Se or Ne being largely irrelevant to their modus operandi.

    We're in the process of defining what all this means behaviorally, but we have some hints. We've launched a research effort to better understand what the types are like in actuality. Our profiles will be written eventually from the collective testimonies of those people.

    So I'm sorry I don't have more of a thorough answer yet. ^^; It's my hope that others can help us define what the types are like. The first round of volunteers won't have the benefit of knowing, but after a while we'll have something solid to convey to the world and the scientific community.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-11-2016 at 11:51 PM.

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    You have done truly magnificent work....but where does the truth lay....for my best friend from school (all those years ago) fits your description of 'the vegetarian' from the FiSe group but in Socionics she more fits SEE due to the way she handles friendships and desires to lead (she even ran for city mayor in her town) so I am seeing discrepancies between what I know of Socionics and some of your descriptions.

    Time will tell I guess which realm is more correct for I shall continue for now using your descriptions as a resource when typing and see where it leads.

    Thanks for all the work you put into this it's very interesting.

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    @Sanshayz - Mhm, they are separate systems so that's to be expected.

    We have to understand that typology right now is in a dire state of affairs.

    It doesn't even have an independent quantification for the 8 functions, let alone the luxury to debate the peculiarities between an FiSe and SeFi. Speaking from a scientific perspective, it would be incredible to find anything that would actually match the current models (Socionics, MBTI, JCF, etc) to even 80% accuracy.

    More reasonably, it has to be looked the other way around - with typology having the obligation to align with what reality displays. I wrote an article about this here. Definitely a must-read for this topic.

    The fact that CT model matches Socionics even to this degree, when it was formed via an independent party through objective correlation between people and facial expressions, is incredible to me.

    But I think that, in the long run, CT will be able to make far more predictions because it has falsifiability. If a person is read as SEE in Socionics and FiSe in CT, only one of those models has a way to objectively confirm it. Another Socionics practitioner may read the same person as IEI, and yet another as ESE backing it up with saying they have 10 years of experience. While in CT the identification would remain rather constant.

    I think that will also allow for the definitions of the types to be deeply refined with time in order to perfectly fit observations, as we're only in the beginning phases of that.

    Time will tell I guess which realm is more correct for I shall continue for now using your descriptions as a resource when typing and see where it leads.
    edit: Yes! Try it out for yourself. Not necessarily by comparing it to Soc. but by seeing if what it shows and what descriptions describe matches your real-life observations.

    That way the accuracy of the model can be gauged by its own capacity to make predictions, and less so by how it compares to another model.

    Thanks also to you for being so receptive and giving this idea a fair go. That's more than I could ever ask for.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-12-2016 at 12:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    @Aylen - Ah... yes, Pod'lair's left such a bad atmosphere toward the topic of V.I., which we're still suffering from. It's the dark past we don't like to remember.

    Back a few years back, their attempts to rally support failed miserably due to their headstrong assertion of power and accuracy. Others were interested in the prospect of V.I. in that time, but not in the way Pod'lair approached it. At least 3 groups that I know of started their own endeavors as a result; they felt that it was irrational to discard the whole topic based on one group's mishaps.

    It's quite a long and dramatic story, maybe for some other time.

    @ forum (just an observation) I find it so interesting to see a trend on this forum of a prominent Gamma (& some Beta) member-base. It's precisely what I'd expect from Socionics, which is a more tactile and quantifiable system and would attract others with a desire for a more textured model. Inversely, people I've encountered in other typology forums visually reveal a lot more Ne types, where members enjoy much more loose hypothesizing and free-for-all association forming (in the absence of a well designed architecture)

    The general aura of this forum is also very distinct; it's a lot more serious (but in that nonchalant way), immediate, and highly Te/Fi in its interactions. It feels a bit like walking into a mix between a sketchy alley-way and a victorian era aristocratic party.



    That's quite the contrast. Although both settings could be potentially equally as dangerous.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanshayz View Post
    You have done truly magnificent work....but where does the truth lay....for my best friend from school (all those years ago) fits your description of 'the vegetarian' from the FiSe group but in Socionics she more fits SEE due to the way she handles friendships and desires to lead (she even ran for city mayor in her town) so I am seeing discrepancies between what I know of Socionics and some of your descriptions.

    Time will tell I guess which realm is more correct for I shall continue for now using your descriptions as a resource when typing and see where it leads.

    Thanks for all the work you put into this it's very interesting.
    I asked Sandoval if I could share our private messages that show why he typed (past tense which I will explain later) me Fi/Se and he said I could. Seriously, this dude is very gracious and highly intelligent., I asked because when I have discussed the ideas,, he presented with others, to get their opinion on it, their reaction to me being typed the equivalent of an ESI in socionics was that they found the system "ludicrous" (it is not ludicrous. it is just "different") but I like to make my correlations between different systems that explain the complexity of a human being (yeah I am including synesthesia, astrology and numerology in the bigger picture) as I understand it. Even if it only gets to the essence of things, I can work with that. I find it harder to put my ideas into words so it is helpful when others do the work for me. I just absorb what is useful and leave the rest. They have a somewhat unique take on types and I find it interesting to consider. I have a mild interest in VI but more interested in the general theory, the whole.

    I am not sure if this will address your questions but I will give it a shot. I will try to remain objective and only speak on IEI and his Fi/Se,( Edavin) which is described as "sprite-like, for my example because I have not looked at all his other types. I saw rather quickly that the functions in his system did not completely align with socionics ESI. It is closer to MBTI's, Fi/Se-ISFP but the closest equivalent of MBTI, in socionics, would be SEI? Because I like Sandi I find it harder to critique his system, objectively, because I do not want him to think that what I am saying it meant to discredit him either. I support what he is doing.

    In his system Fi/Se values Se and Te from what I can make out so far. I know firsthand how there are overlaps through my comparisons of INFJ/P. I also see overlaps here. That is why you sort of have to see the systems as separate but that does not mean there isn't a unifying theory. No one has gotten there yet but some day. I know it won't be me that does it. Too much work to organize and present.

    Unlike socionics, it does not address how the full range of functions can manifest in a type, in the short descriptions I read on his site. He said that new information may be considered and added daily. This is something worth watching, imo. Most of what I am saying here is based on impressions and not because I have read everything but I will read more.

    The biggest difference is dimensionality, for example Fi in an IEI is as strong as Fe but demonstrative. Si is also unvalued but it is our role function. Ti is HA but we fall back into our comfort zone of Ni, just as we do with Si. Ni and Si can take turns, so to speak, but is not something we can sustain for long. Te is polr but we are not airheads (at least most of us aren't). Ne is a given but not important so filtered out quickly. Se is a suggestive function... Socionics is still the most complex theory (of this sort) that addresses many dimensions of human personalty and interactions and have explored many but even it doesn't work for me without enneagram, to supplement, and fill in the gaps. None of it is really comparable to say, neuropsychology which is taken more seriously by many. The theories expressed here, on this forum, and other forums of this type, are seriously fringe which is part of the appeal to me. As you can witness here on this forum it t can become almost a religion, unto itself, to some. I don't seek a new religion though. I just want to experience clarity in the sea of theories.

    I saw their perception of the ego functions in the descriptions could possibly be missing important elements if comparing to socionics. So yes his system is actually independent of both socionics and MBTI and should be treated as such. I think at this point in their endeavor it is probably better that they use the familiar to draw greater interest. It got my attention. They are interested in finding empirical data to back up their theory. A set of facts. Not easy to do with theories that are very subjective to begin with.

    It will be a LOT of work. I am interested to see how it evolves. If they are actually able to do this in a way that even hard core skeptics will look at and say, maybe there is more to this. It would be pretty impressive. BUT, there will always be skeptics in the world so they just have to work around them and keep doing their thing. I wish them luck. I believe that in order to do it properly they would have to have people of different types involved in their process, checks and balances. I think this is what they are already doing by allowing testimonials and valuing the input of the people they are studying. It seems to me that there is a lot of Si, Ne and Ti involved here which would point to an alpha quadra theory. I would not type him in socionics because I have not had enough interaction.

    I have not asked him all the types of the team members but I am sure he would be very willing to share. Sandovall appears to value transparency without all the secret handshakes and winks behind the scenes (this is NOT podlair which was one of my "concerns" that he put to rest.). I can vibe with that even though most of what I am saying is speculation on my part. This is why I have always been skeptical of VI but something about his system makes me want to keep an open mind because it is still in it's infancy. I don't like to discourage anyone from following their passions/dreams.

    People who are purists have probably already dismissed the ideas but I think this forum is pretty open minded (Does anyone remember psyche yoga??? I loved it but it was fringer than fringe.). The confusion lies in the different descriptions that do not completely correlate with socionics types. BUT, there are correlations that would take a lot of effort for me to explain, at the moment (so tired). But, for example, an Edavin which is Fi/Se in his system is nothing like and ESI in socionics. I pointed this out in him in pm and sent him the socionics descriptions of ESI and IEI. His Edavin is closer to an IEI-Ni than ESI. I will now let him speak for himself.

    /tangent
     

    The video really helps. We get to see a very authentic smile and the quality of your voice. I see the Ni/Se eyes you mentioned, yeah.

    This is curious, by the CT system (and I don't mean to discredit you being IEI by Soc. standards) you'd type as a clear FiSe. A bit of an Indie Artist shade. Admittedly, our profile descriptions aren't the best right now, and we don't have a behavioral profile for the FiSe, but one way to describe it is by comparing to others. You remind me a lot of FiSe Janet Jackson:

    There is a quality of softness and delicacy which you both share, which comes out in the eyes being somewhat retracted from the environment despite being quite alert (Se). Your voice, despite it being early morning for you, has a quality of passivity but also of emotional sensitivity. This is something we call Fi's "sprite-like" or "breathy" voice. It's a little bit "sing-songy" and ebbs according to their personal feeling.

    We catch glimpses of this sensitivity in your words like "..talk to you later, ok?" and "bye". Your emotional disposition is introverted, private and radiates out in an unbridled sentimentality. This Fi signal is also seen (as we'd expect) alongside the appearance of Fi's tension running up toward the nose.

    Your mouth, rather than smiling in a suave and smug way as with Betas, is more accidental and.. what we sometimes call "sincere". This is not to say Fe smiles are insincere, but it's an adjective used to describe a visual signal, for example:



    The smile of the NiFe is imposing, in the sense that it's extending itself onto others in the hopes of charming, persuading with charisma or guiding. The smile of the FiSe has no such motivations. And although it may wish to convey goodwill and have that echoed back, it's not guiding the emotional energy of others (Fe).

    This manifest in many other elements that make the NiFe more directive and forward, albeit in a backseat-driver sort of style. I also see a lot of sensational signals from your photos (Ni/Se) - with an emphasis on self expression and a bit of a dramatic artist's edge (Fi). This can apply to both the NiFe and FiSe but I've seen it most prominently in FiSe such as Kate Bush, Marilyn Monroe, Bjork, Michael Jackson, etc.

    Also, the static photo of you at age 5 looks so much like the main FiSe profile image. Hehe. You're a complete match, by the CT system anyway.

    I hope this was a helpful analysis (or at least a different take). Thank you again for offering your photos.
    This is his response to me sending the ESI and IEI descriptions.

    Absolutely. Feel free to share anything in these PMs, I don't mind at all.

    Oh my gosh, what a contrast! *eye-opener* I had no idea Socionics could even have such stark descriptions (of any type). It just sounds like somebody had a really bad experience with another person, and wrote about it. I can certainly see the hesitation. I've found FiSe to be quite the opposite as well; among the most receptive and sensitive types I know of. I will have to be more careful in how I present the material as paralleling to Socionics in the future.

    The intuitive subtype appears as a calm, tactful, languid and diffident individual. He seems torn from reality, inert and poorly adapted to life. However, such impressions are erroneous, for he possesses a fine intuition, which aids his in establishing useful connections and obtaining support from influential people. Externally he seems serene, but in his heart he is sentimentally predisposed, has bouts of moodiness and melancholy, and regrets his mistakes and misfortunes for a long time. His mimicry is somewhat monotonous, often shows an expression of light amazement or full interest in his conversation partner. His gaze is dreamy and pensive, slightly strained, with a bit of luster, often expressing melancholy, attentiveness, or sardonic irony. His speech is measured, smooth, and intimately heart-felt. On his face there is almost constantly a polite half-smile that easily predisposes towards trust. Gestures are modest, timid, undemonstrative. Gait is unhurried and smooth.
    This is especially interesting, as I could almost write something identical about the FiSe type. Not trying to convince you or anything, but just hoping to elaborate on my own definition of FiSe. The FiSe I've known in real life are quiet, somewhat elusive creatures with a very interesting aesthetic and a private world they guard from others. I do agree about some of the self-contained descriptions, and being selective about close company. But it doesn't mean they're mean to those they don't allow in. That's against many of their values, if they come to value general respect. They may just be protective - and this is part of what makes them elusive.

    A straightforward (a bit 2 dimensional, but good for a start) primer description of the FiSe I've seen is in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av0L9olZdco

    It's true they can close off/retreat when someone does very specific things that rub their Fi palate the wrong way. But equally so, if someone does the right thing, suddenly they can open up immensely and be very radiant. It's a two-way filter that is very case-specific.

    Yeah. There is a lot of crossover between the NiFe and the FiSe due to both being ethical types, introverted types and Ni/Se users. I think both share a lot of the same sensational/esoteric pursuits (there's a description in the SeFi Gypsy that comes close) but the FiSe or SeFi will only dabble in it, rather than *be* a Guru of it. The difference for me between the two is that the NiFe always remains a sort of manipulator (not necessarily in the bad way) and the creator of the mental tapestry.

    NiFe's have a manipulative sort of charm (Fe); one that is alluring due to their suave aura. They are attractive because their eyes are confident, relaxed, steady in the same way their Ni's sense of anticipation follows a predictable overview. It seems like they "know" (the situation they're in) and are relaxed or even bored because things are obvious to them. Things like how society works, how people around them work and what they're going to say next.

    As Pi types, they can also stagnate in their own perspectives. Especially if they develop a view of society that is disheartening, they can become disenchanted naysayers of progress. Also, I have this curious experience. Whenever I talk to an NiFe, it always feels like they're not talking back at me, but are talking at the world. They speak from a very global place (Pi) to a global audience (Fe) which I happen to represent at the moment, by being one element of this tapestry they hold (Ni). It can be really fun to pick their brains though.

    But instead, FiSe have all the qualities of Pe and Ji in them, which are curiosity and real-time adaptability (Pe), opinion-changing and values checking (Ji). There's a level of uncertainty that's balanced with confidence about what they know is important. They're in a never-ending state of refinement as every day prompts new information to examine. An over-encompassing perspective/worldview (Pi) with predictability based on broad-reaching patterns (Ni) isn't as important to the FiSe as the discover of what the present (moment/person/situation) means to them and to those present - and how they can best live, right then and there.

    This post is getting really long (so sorry!) but if I can share just one more thing...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgBEI_VPjuw


    Do I feel happy in life? Um, lets see. Lets say, I hope I'm finding happiness.

    Well for me, if I can realize certain things in my work, I come the closest to being happy. And I can say that also about my life.

    Well it only happens, I think, in moments. Sometimes when I'm working. And I'll be able to fulfill a scene truthfully. And then I think I'm the happiest.

    Well I find it very stimulating to keep studying and working. But I'm not just generally happy. If I'm generally anything I guess I'm generally miserable.

    I don't know. Ahm, sometimes I think? I don't know I think sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Which is natural, I guess, for everyone.

    I would like to be more sociable than I am. On some days. Maybe sometimes I'll chat when I'm not pleased but sometimes the work itself requires... more than I'm quiet and to myself more, and other days like during a musical number I try not to get too, um... I'd like to be more outgoing because that's what I have to express. So I try to keep a general... I try to. Even if I feel like it or not, I try to make the effort to make contact with people around me.

    Yes, because I could easily be alone. It doesn't bother me to be alone. Some people I know they... they don't like to be alone. I don't mind it. I need it, there's a rest... yeah, it kinda refreshes myself.

    Here we see all the characteristics of private emotional/ethical judgment (Fi) in its most generous form; through a desire to be oneself happy in self-accomplishment and to allow for the happiness of others to be possible. This dialogue shows the sensitive emotionality of the FiSe, as well as their evolving (adaptive) perspective. They may be quite melancholy souls inside but aim/strive for accomplishment, and to them happiness is understood as something situational and something continually manifesting.

    Granted, Marilyn Monroe is exceptionally Fi/sensitive and many FiSe will be a great deal more 'edgy', possibly emo, and tough (re: the Unseelie Haughty). Her voice really radiates the emotional energy she feels inside, but it leaks out unintentionally, rather than via Fe coordination.

    But I've gone on long enough, lol.
    Thank you for these articles, they will really come in handy when explaining CT properly to newer people.


    So I decide that he should know some things that are common knowledge about me here, for those who have paid attention to me from the beginning, before he settled on my type. I knew that he would probably not randomly come across these posts so I wrote a very self revealing and somewhat unflattering summary of myself and things that have been a big influence in my life. Things that are also innate to my personality and cognitive abilities, something he could not see in my video, pictures, or hear in my voice and this was his response:

    This is an incredible story. I'm so grateful you decided to share with me. I've never come across someone with the combination of your visuals + psychology, so this is really eye-opening.

    Whether that means expanding the NiFe profile or the FiSe profile, or something completely different, it's precisely what helps expand understanding. I can't really place you in either 'cubby' now. =P You're officially in your own class. I've had this happen before and what I do is postpone judgment and wait to see a new pattern emerge. Often times, more exposure reveals other people with the same visual+psychological duality. I need to keep learning.


    It is cool that my testimonial might contribute something to their research. I also need to keep learning instead of believing I already know where things are going. That attitude only winds up with me in a state of apathy. I needed something to get excited about and turn my attention away from things that were troubling me.

    In a way he acts as mirror to me but not in the socionics sense. As I said, I cannot type him either, yet.
    Last edited by Aylen; 05-13-2016 at 12:07 AM. Reason: clarification

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    @Sandoval Aylen is not EII. Though she describes her personal relationships and personal feelings and accounts of things and demonstrates Fi. And Ni is a introverted function and she doesn't talk about it much, she's exceptionally good at managing time. She also uses her Fe to read people's emotions and find out their dispositions as well as using Fe to cheer people up and joke with them. Also, she describes traits associated with Beta types such as wanting to not look weak

    Pleaseread this post

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1132839

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    @Sandoval Aylen is not EII. Though she describes her personal relationships and personal feelings and accounts of things and demonstrates Fi. And Ni is a introverted function and she doesn't talk about it much, she's exceptionally good at managing time. She also uses her Fe to read people's emotions and find out their dispositions as well as using Fe to cheer people up and joke with them. Also, she describes traits associated with Beta types such as wanting to not look weak

    Pleaseread this post

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1132839
    Thanks Maritsa, you're sweet but he does not type me EII. His theory is different than socionics. He has already told me he is not typing me for now, which I spoiler-ed above, and will wait and see what patterns emerge over time. He is undecided.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Thanks Maritsa, you're sweet but he does not type me EII. His theory is different than socionics. He has already told me he is not typing me for now, which I spoiler-ed above, and will wait and see what patterns emerge over time. He is undecided.
    Okay. I think it would help that you be more yourself and talk about areas instances where you use Ni

    You will wait and see what will come of it over time too?

    The story about the SEE stealing someone I liked is a case I thought where I can practice my Ni to see and envision an outcome of that relationship and all I see is Ne. Many possible outcomes. :/ I guess each possibility can have Ni but I cant see one inevitable event.


    "Ni observes and synthesizes developments as building blocks leading to something interesting that could happen, tries to envision how and when it could happen. Ni is about development between patterns of events over time. Ni thinks "learning a language is good to reach because of the places it will bring you to." About the outcome, Ni says "that was bound to develop in that success/failure." Ni will absorb information to add them as building blocks to come to some "essence" of the ideas they're developing. Ni takes a bunch of different instances and synthesizes them together to develop them in one direction of potential development."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Okay. I think it would help that you be more yourself and talk about areas instances where you use Ni

    You will wait and see what will come of it over time too?

    The story about the SEE stealing someone I liked is a case I thought where I can practice my Ni to see and envision an outcome of that relationship and all I see is Ne. Many possible outcomes. :/ I guess each possibility can have Ni but I cant see one inevitable event.


    "Ni observes and synthesizes developments as building blocks leading to something interesting that could happen, tries to envision how and when it could happen. Ni is about development between patterns of events over time. Ni thinks "learning a language is good to reach because of the places it will bring you to." About the outcome, Ni says "that was bound to develop in that success/failure." Ni will absorb information to add them as building blocks to come to some "essence" of the ideas they're developing. Ni takes a bunch of different instances and synthesizes them together to develop them in one direction of potential development."
    I am fine with whatever he decides because I think he has a vision of where he would like things to go with his theory/system. I am not part of his team so have no investment in it personally but I am very interested. He has completely different terms than, IEI, EII, ESI, etc... I do not want to push any socionics concepts on him because he will draw to himself the information that is useful for him. I believe strongly that things will only happen in perfect time, even if it does not always seem like the timing is perfect. You can't rush progress but I think things are unfolding as expected. In this case I will take a wait and see approach too because I do not want to inadvertently influence him in a way that sets him off course. As, he said, I do not fit neatly into just one type in his system, yet. I trust that he can do this and we have been exchanging information.

    Have you looked at his website yet? http://cognitivetype.com/theory/

    I am synthesizing as we "speak".

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am fine with whatever he decides because I think he has a vision of where he would like things to go with his theory/system. I am not part of his team so have no investment in it personally but I am very interested. He has completely different terms than, IEI, EII, ESI, etc... I do not want to push any socionics concepts on him because he will draw to himself the information that is useful for him. I believe strongly that things will only happen in perfect time, even if it does not always seem like the timing is perfect. You can't rush progress but I think things are unfolding as expected. In this case I will take a wait and see approach too because I do not want to inadvertently influence him in a way that sets him off course. As, he said, I do not fit neatly into just one type in his system, yet. I trust that he can do this and we have been exchanging information.

    Have you looked at his website yet? http://cognitivetype.com/theory/

    I am synthesizing as we "speak".
    I will look at it my dear "Prophet"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I will look at it my dear "Prophet"
    Sometimes I just want to squeeze you.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Well... ok! Here goes.



    I'd like to introduce you to the new model on the block, it's called "Cognitive Type" and is a slowly budding one... with the hopes of entirely revamping the existing typology culture by addressing all the existing problems of repeatability and unfalsifiability. It also aims to be the first model to empirically verify the existence of types, and establish it as part of science.

    The theory was officially published as a 350 page paperback/eBook a few months ago, but over half of the book has been made available online at: http://cognitivetype.com/

    There's a walkthrough of the theory's basics at: cognitivetype.com/theory/




    And a full visual signals walkthrough can be found here:




    As well as type profiles for the 16 types:




    And lastly, a growing celebrity database which can be found at: http://cognitivetype.com/celebrity/

    How do these 16 profiles compare to your own experience with the types?
    So, TeSi is a type of cheese. Got it!

    Anyhow, I wanted to ask whether you wanted to look through my videos which I made for 80q. One more opinion can't hurt, can it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    So, TeSi is a type of cheese. Got it!

    Anyhow, I wanted to ask whether you wanted to look through my videos which I made for 80q. One more opinion can't hurt, can it?
    Where is your video? You've got multiple type-me threads but I couldn't find one anywhere... :S

    edit: but based on your text... I'm gonna take a gamble here and guess I'd find:

    - Pe momentum
    - Pe loose swaying body
    - Pe alert eyes
    - Pe eye-toggling
    - Je gesticulation (amped with Pe momentum)

    and more specifically:

    - Ne naive eyes
    - Ne parodies ("mini-skits")
    - Si scowling (when recalling/correcting)
    - Te snippy/speedy articulation

    ~~~

    I think I'd very probably see: Pe-dom
    I think I'd likely see: Ne-dom
    I think I just might see: NeFi w/ heavy Te

    (alt: NeTi, SeFi... or TeSi)
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-15-2016 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Where is your video? You've got multiple type-me threads but I couldn't find one anywhere... :S

    edit: but based on your text... I'm gonna take a gamble here and guess I'd find:

    - Pe momentum
    - Pe loose swaying body
    - Pe alert eyes
    - Pe eye-toggling
    - Je gesticulation (amped with Pe momentum)

    and more specifically:

    - Ne naive eyes
    - Ne parodies ("mini-skits")
    - Si scowling (when recalling/correcting)
    - Te snippy/speedy articulation

    ~~~

    I think I'd very probably see: Pe-dom
    I think I'd likely see: Ne-dom
    I think I just might see: NeFi w/ heavy Te

    (alt: NeTi, SeFi... or TeSi)
    You didn't keep your eyes open enough, my dear! Everything comes together as perhaps just one or two persons here assumed correctly(I am certain about one):

    http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-...eo-typing.html

    The swaying I actually kinda picked up from Diablo II of all places. Don't ask me why. Guess Natalya looked cool. silly edit: I often can mimic persons to a high degree even to a point of mimicing their body posture or behaviour. It's one of reasons why I'd make a good actor.

    But you have 8 * 10 questions(or 4 * 20, forgot), so that should tide you over. If you can't do it from that, eh. @Sol, do come and repeat your xLE again if you will with good argumentation.

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    Hah! NeFi w/ heavy Te, I knew it!

    Wow, you're quite prolific. Multiple vids, each 40+ minutes long.

    Lemmy just pick one of them to break down the signals of the first minute:

    Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKgvGxa69Yc

    0:01 - Searching (for something?) N/A
    0:03 - Pe Momentum of Body
    0:04 - Facial Parody
    0:06 - Body Swaying (right)
    0:08 - Accentuated Eyebrows (Je)
    0:10 - Te Head Rattling
    0:12 - "Exhilirated about it" + Pe Momentum/Energy + Body Drifting (P)
    0:14 - Fi Snarling Smile + Ne Parody "My appearance"
    0:17 - Showing badge N/A
    0:18 - Ne Naive Eyes
    0:22 - "Best club in New England" Pe playfulness
    0:24 - Body Drifting/Swaying (P)
    0:28 + Continual/default Fi snarling smile
    0:33 - Te Snippy Eyebrow Raise
    0:34 - Ji meticulous fingers
    0:36 - Pi Searching (down left)
    0:30 - Very Jittery/Snippy Energy: Ne Energy + Je Acceleration
    0:42 - Head Drifts to Side (P)
    0:44 - Te Snippy/Jittery Motion + Te Eyebrow Raise
    0:45 - Ji Disengage Down
    0:48 - Te Snippy/Jittery Motions + Te Eyebrow Raises
    0:49 - Te Snippy/Jittery Motions
    0:50 - Intense/Aggressive Stare (is actually coming from your parody)
    0:52 - Je Accentuation
    0:54 - Je Accentuation + Eyebrow Raise
    0:56 - Body Swaying/Drifting (P)

    General Summary: Your energy is very animated, proactive, prolific and forward (E). However, you seem to also have a divergent quality to that energy characterized by a series of self-parodies, playful enactments (with your face or props) that speak to Ne being the primary function. There is a disconnect from the literal, and you gather this momentum from your own thought-tangents (Ne). Your body continually sways and leans casually about without any rigidity (P) but is allowed to pick up speed from your Ne's playful energy.

    However, this casual body posture is somewhat contradicted by your Te's snippy energy. Amidst this playful energy you articulate in very brief, jittery bite-sized deliveries. Your head rattles, your brows are raised and so forth. Alongside of this Te energy is a rather constant Fi tension running upward from your mouth toward your nose. You are using a strong combo of Ne+Te.

    If I may... here is a snapshot compilation of the general Delta look, showing your casual Ne eyes that rest in a gentle embedding, and your Fi tension held around your nose area:



    Since I took these without asking first, here is a deletion link: https://imgur.com/delete/LIiLeVgQvE1pmks

    To keep your identity private, you can delete the image anytime by clicking that.

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    mah, what privacy. Whoever wants to see, let him see. It feels good to be me, it feels beautiful to be me .

    And yet people keep being insistent on Se for whatever reason. I can push, but get tired very quickly. Like, why do it if you can just enjoy finer nuances of life? As a firm believer in the J.Consular way, conflict is...best to be avoided imo(even if it is ultimately unavoidable, sadly). And yet another proof of my Delta-ness. What are the Jedi if not like the ultimate Delta guys lol?

    I never understood my supposed Se connection.

    edit: NEW England...lol!

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    @Sandoval Within the confines of this system, is it possible to identify someone's type with still photographs exclusively?

    Irrespective of its validity, which I will evaluate at a later time, I am interested in this system, though I do not endorse VI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Person View Post
    This is cool. I already see your forum has been gathering impressions on famous types. Maybe a respective photo gallery of their different expressions, because people including me will find that to help learn the essential visual foundation and find more types, where a more limited selection of pictures and samples could not. Not only so, but a large sample would give this credibility. Keep up the good work on that aspect.

    I'm getting the hang of mostly Fe vs Fi VI and the 4 function strengths so far. But I don't yet have down the reactive/proactive (I/E) orientations of the other functions. Need to read more.
    Agreed. The celebrity tab of the website (here) provides a gallery/database of that sort, divided by groupings too. So you can see the general average of the four quadrants, or other categories at a glance -- but also, each thumbnail is a post with its own video of the celeb. Some have been broken down into time-stamped analyses, with the aim to eventually time-decode all of them and write up an explanation for each.

    Currently we have a little over 100 celeb samples up, but there are some 300-350 total that are ready to go up. It's just a matter of doing the work and spending the time. But I hope to turn that into 1,000 samples eventually.

    We also have video samples of actual volunteers which we're compiling on youtube. These volunteers are also offering bios of themselves which we are compiling to come up with new profiles that describe these like-typed people from firsthand experience.

    Lastly (and this is extensive) I plan to eventually make a video composite for each of the 110 'basic' signals codex - as per this page. "The purpose of this codex is to provide fellow researchers, critics and learners with an unambiguous definition of the signals comprising CT theory in visual form – which is the form in which the signals primarily appears." That way, if anyone wants to know exactly what a signal looks like in a dynamic way, they can reference a page of GIFs or a video with multiple examples.

    This would also act as a sort of "standard" or consensus measurement which can be used reliably to verify or critique mistypings - at least within the CT model. So within the CT model, most practitioners should be able to agree (at least on the basics) with a very high degree of repeatability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person View Post
    I'm leaning towards a certain type for myself in this classification, but won't mention what that type is in the chance that you want to type me.
    I can make time.
    (Although it's gotten a bit busy for me lately.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    @Sandoval Within the confines of this system, is it possible to identify someone's type with still photographs exclusively?

    Irrespective of its validity, which I will evaluate at a later time, I am interested in this system, though I do not endorse VI.
    I think it's possible if there's a large amount of psychological material available. If that provides a strong estimation of type, then photographs can 'confirm' that reading in some cases. I've been able to do this with Isaac Newton, for example. And I have a fair guess about Abraham Lincoln.

    Still this depends on what we might call "type-specific" signals, which are few. It's not always possible to tell between (say) FeSi and SiFe via photographs. Same functions, very similar order. They can look like each other on the ups an downs of their days. But some types have a look that is distinct and indisputable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I asked Sandoval if I could share our private messages that show why he typed (past tense which I will explain later) me Fi/Se and he said I could. Seriously, this dude is very gracious and highly intelligent., I asked because when I have discussed the ideas,, he presented with others, to get their opinion on it, their reaction to me being typed the equivalent of an ESI in socionics was that they found the system "ludicrous" (it is not ludicrous. it is just "different") but I like to make my correlations between different systems that explain the complexity of a human being (yeah I am including synesthesia, astrology and numerology in the bigger picture) as I understand it. Even if it only gets to the essence of things, I can work with that. I find it harder to put my ideas into words so it is helpful when others do the work for me. I just absorb what is useful and leave the rest. They have a somewhat unique take on types and I find it interesting to consider. I have a mild interest in VI but more interested in the general theory, the whole.

    I am not sure if this will address your questions but I will give it a shot. I will try to remain objective and only speak on IEI and his Fi/Se,( Edavin) which is described as "sprite-like, for my example because I have not looked at all his other types. I saw rather quickly that the functions in his system did not completely align with socionics ESI. It is closer to MBTI's, Fi/Se-ISFP but the closest equivalent of MBTI, in socionics, would be SEI? Because I like Sandi I find it harder to critique his system, objectively, because I do not want him to think that what I am saying it meant to discredit him either. I support what he is doing.

    In his system Fi/Se values Se and Te from what I can make out so far. I know firsthand how there are overlaps through my comparisons of INFJ/P. I also see overlaps here. That is why you sort of have to see the systems as separate but that does not mean there isn't a unifying theory. No one has gotten there yet but some day. I know it won't be me that does it. Too much work to organize and present.

    Unlike socionics, it does not address how the full range of functions can manifest in a type, in the short descriptions I read on his site. He said that new information may be considered and added daily. This is something worth watching, imo. Most of what I am saying here is based on impressions and not because I have read everything but I will read more.

    The biggest difference is dimensionality, for example Fi in an IEI is as strong as Fe but demonstrative. Si is also unvalued but it is our role function. Ti is HA but we fall back into our comfort zone of Ni, just as we do with Si. Ni and Si can take turns, so to speak, but is not something we can sustain for long. Te is polr but we are not airheads (at least most of us aren't). Ne is a given but not important so filtered out quickly. Se is a suggestive function... Socionics is still the most complex theory (of this sort) that addresses many dimensions of human personalty and interactions and have explored many but even it doesn't work for me without enneagram, to supplement, and fill in the gaps. None of it is really comparable to say, neuropsychology which is taken more seriously by many. The theories expressed here, on this forum, and other forums of this type, are seriously fringe which is part of the appeal to me. As you can witness here on this forum it t can become almost a religion, unto itself, to some. I don't seek a new religion though. I just want to experience clarity in the sea of theories.

    I saw their perception of the ego functions in the descriptions could possibly be missing important elements if comparing to socionics. So yes his system is actually independent of both socionics and MBTI and should be treated as such. I think at this point in their endeavor it is probably better that they use the familiar to draw greater interest. It got my attention. They are interested in finding empirical data to back up their theory. A set of facts. Not easy to do with theories that are very subjective to begin with.

    It will be a LOT of work. I am interested to see how it evolves. If they are actually able to do this in a way that even hard core skeptics will look at and say, maybe there is more to this. It would be pretty impressive. BUT, there will always be skeptics in the world so they just have to work around them and keep doing their thing. I wish them luck. I believe that in order to do it properly they would have to have people of different types involved in their process, checks and balances. I think this is what they are already doing by allowing testimonials and valuing the input of the people they are studying. It seems to me that there is a lot of Si, Ne and Ti involved here which would point to an alpha quadra theory. I would not type him in socionics because I have not had enough interaction.

    I have not asked him all the types of the team members but I am sure he would be very willing to share. Sandovall appears to value transparency without all the secret handshakes and winks behind the scenes (this is NOT podlair which was one of my "concerns" that he put to rest.). I can vibe with that even though most of what I am saying is speculation on my part. This is why I have always been skeptical of VI but something about his system makes me want to keep an open mind because it is still in it's infancy. I don't like to discourage anyone from following their passions/dreams.

    People who are purists have probably already dismissed the ideas but I think this forum is pretty open minded (Does anyone remember psyche yoga??? I loved it but it was fringer than fringe.). The confusion lies in the different descriptions that do not completely correlate with socionics types. BUT, there are correlations that would take a lot of effort for me to explain, at the moment (so tired). But, for example, an Edavin which is Fi/Se in his system is nothing like and ESI in socionics. I pointed this out in him in pm and sent him the socionics descriptions of ESI and IEI. His Edavin is closer to an IEI-Ni than ESI. I will now let him speak for himself.

    /tangent
     



    This is his response to me sending the ESI and IEI descriptions.



    So I decide that he should know some things that are common knowledge about me here, for those who have paid attention to me from the beginning, before he settled on my type. I knew that he would probably not randomly come across these posts so I wrote a very self revealing and somewhat unflattering summary of myself and things that have been a big influence in my life. Things that are also innate to my personality and cognitive abilities, something he could not see in my video, pictures, or hear in my voice and this was his response:



    It is cool that my testimonial might contribute something to their research. I also need to keep learning instead of believing I already know where things are going. That attitude only winds up with me in a state of apathy. I needed something to get excited about and turn my attention away from things that were troubling me.

    In a way he acts as mirror to me but not in the socionics sense. As I said, I cannot type him either, yet.
    Hi Aylen, had a quick read of all of what you wrote via my phone screen and will read again later when I have more time.
    Are in the middle of a house move at present and have just been informed that it will take at least a month to get internet for new home as council needs to give approval to close the road and allow a new trench to be dug, all so this new house can be connected!
    There is so much more to 'type' than VI which from still photographs does not actually give much away. I find you thus far to be very Ni. I too am very Ni with mine occurring all day every day so it must be a strength.
    Well I had better get back to unpacking before my first visitor arrives in the morning....will be a hectic month with many family members coming from out of state and overseas to visit us in the new abode...and won't be on the forum much due to the Internet problem.

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    @Person - It makes me so happy to know it's visible to you! We must be getting parts of it right, at least. I hope the general type community can see this too, with time, but we know we're largely responsible for making the presentation more digestible and applicable. Work to be done. (:

    I think what every type enthusiast wants, deep down, is for typology to be validated and fully realized. To be refined and become part of mainstream psychology and science, and possibly even applied in school systems. CT is following that very vision; that future so many of us want.

    It's taken a long time to get to this point, but it's well worth it - and we have further to go. We have recently made an unpacking video for our EEG machine and will be starting trials in the next few weeks.

    Yea, the best way to learn is via videos. The growing volunteer collection is a great start. But eventually, when time permits, we hope to do time-decoded videos, where signal annotations show up on screen in real-time. That will be the most helpful type of initial exposure, I suspect.

  36. #36
    Word Definition Warrior – WDW Troll Nr 007's Avatar
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    I think there is something about Si mobilizing when it comes to theories like this. Let's observe movements etc. [paranoia kicks in: what else people can see out there?]
    I find it bit baffling of how one has enough eye for those kinds details but nonetheless what ever floats your boat. I'm not a good judge of this since I'm too weak at it where as I like to watch people's expressions and reactions on their faces (maybe bit too much) and have somewhat animated and detached style.

    Just by flying through some articles I would say that there are some factual and logical fallacies that becomes present when it starts to fixate on specific points [my cross context views]. Anyways this theory functions by linking factual and and less verified physiology with other type theories trying to past/ignore theories that deals with symbolic logical structures like socionics [which can be seen rightfully as mental masturbation by admiring the beautiful structure but it also makes socionics so cool].
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 01-20-2017 at 12:39 PM.
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

    Highly immature Discord channel
    because enneagram is just too simple and therefore we need to develop a new classification system called Rhombic triacontahedron with life module containing eukaryotes, prokaryotes and virus.

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