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Thread: A Quantified Method for V.I.

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    Default A Quantified Method for V.I.

    Hey guys,

    First I wanna say I'm so grateful for the warm welcome. I was not expecting my ideas about the quadrants to hit home so well with so many of you.

    There seems to be a general curiosity about the topic and a few members ( @Ananke , @Lola , @Subteigh ) have asked me to elaborate. I don't want to intrude or overwhelm things. But if it's ok with the admins and members, I'm willing to share a bit more about these ideas.

    But I should clarify that the model where these ideas come from isn't Socionics; although it's more similar to it than other theories. The model I use has an available quantification and logic behind every signal displayed -- not just for the 16 types and how they look, but why the 8 functions display the looks they do, how this crosses over into the 16 types, and also why the dichotomies display their signals. The 4 appearances of the quadrants are just one end-effects, naturally created from the results of this psycho-physical model.


    Stage I: Judgment & Perception



    Physical Description:

    Judgment is a process that determines where we stand on a matter or belief. It is the realm of conviction, decision-making and execution of those decisions. And because of this, when the body actively makes or executes a judgment, it becomes rigid and defensive of those convictions.

    There is at once a sense that the person is standing behind their words, as though they have become the physical embodiment or guardian of those ideas. When a person is using judgment in real-time, this manifests in the body being stiffer and the movements of the hands and head being more straight and linear; directional and sharp with well-defined halts.



    The muscles become tense, primarily around the head and neck, but this may extend to the entire body. The fingers may become taut, whether stretched out entirely or locked in a claw-like posture. The head in particular remains rigid, and when it moves it does so vertically or horizontally with quick, deliberate motions.

    Perception

    When the psyche is engaged in absorbing data it is not engaged in rejecting it, nor in selecting away what it finds irrelevant. The process of judgment marks the closure of receptiveness to new information, thus causing rigidity in the body as it defends the finite perimeter of an idea, but perception draws no such boundaries, nor is it concerned with standing behind a cause with an unyielding character. As such, when perception is engaged the body’s disposition is not restricted by definitive halts or tensions.



    The body will appear altogether loose, receptive to movements and the whims of the environment or one’s own internal recollections. We have all seen someone in our circle of peers whose body sways as they talk, and their head swivels from shoulder to shoulder as their spine collaborates in this dance with a syncopated rhythm.

    Their words flow as an unbroken stream of thoughts, often with no definite point to get across, but merely the relaying of an experience. To perception, the truth of reality is the immeasurable qualities contained therein, undisturbed and uncompromised, not what might be picked out and considered of most importance. All is of equal importance, and the task is turned toward assimilating it all in unison.

    ~~~~~~

    Here is an example of a woman displaying J-type signals:




    Her body is generally still, moving only when there is some accentuation to make or otherwise remaining steady and contained. She does plenty of eyebrow raises, hand gestures, head nods and the like, in order to communicate the conviction of her delineations. The finality in her words is echoed by the linearity in her movements.

    In contrast, below we see someone displaying P-type signals:





    Chapelle's body is not well delineated, but instead remains receptive to movement and also drifts constantly alongside his absorption of the environment. As the interview proceeds, he allows himself to be influenced and guided by the interviewer and his suggestions. Rather than having definitive halts and a firm posture, his eyes wander about (with his thoughts) as he takes in reality. He interacts playfully with little enactments (i.e. "He's getting stronger") and adjusts to the content. Perception is impresssionistic, unstructured and receptive. When he does make delineated gestures, they are of a far less tense or directive form, emerging instead from a natively fluid mental landscape.

    Every person has judgment and perception, so everyone will have both of these signals, but the ratio of these signals we find in a person will directly coincide with their relative level of decisiveness of mind (J) and receptiveness to information (P) they hold.

    @ forum - How would you say this division relates to your experience with strong J types and P types?

    Note: these signals lean more toward describing Je and Pe, as they are an easier couple to discuss as an intro topic.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-09-2016 at 07:49 AM.

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    How about j/p types with opposite subtype? Like EII-Ne

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    I think this topic is highly subjective, and if coupled with a disproportionate certainty of being correct, it can be especially unhelpful! I do fear that such a project could drive an individual batty, ending up seeing patterns that are not there etc.

    Balance is definitely key, and I'm not convinced it is something that one person can do alone. I think any such project needs at least some independent benchmark standard, and that the VI element should at no point be considered supreme (I do not think that identification via VI is a satisfactory way of confirming a person's type, because it can only be secondary to typing via tests, self-reflection etc., because it would be nonsensical to say that typing via VI is a predictor of a person's self-type, rather than a person's self-typing is a predictor of what they will score via VI-typing).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I think this topic is highly subjective, and if coupled with a disproportionate certainty of being correct, it can be especially unhelpful! I do fear that such a project could drive an individual batty, ending up seeing patterns that are not there etc.

    Balance is definitely key, and I'm not convinced it is something that one person can do alone. I think any such project needs at least some independent benchmark standard, and that the VI element should at no point be considered supreme (I do not think that identification via VI is a satisfactory way of confirming a person's type, because it can only be secondary to typing via tests, self-reflection etc., because it would be nonsensical to say that typing via VI is a predictor of a person's self-type, rather than a person's self-typing is a predictor of what they will score via VI-typing).
    Yes, I agree actually. I told Maritsa something very similar in this post. "Verbal (well, psychological) information is deeply important. I don't confirm a typing without taking that into account and am willing to override this visual framework when it doesn't properly describe a person's psychology. Body/expression reading is trying approximate someone's psychology via the secondary effects of psychology; it cannot define it."

    Errr, I'm sensing there's a general expectation with this topic for people to be more confident in their assumptions than warranted? It may just be an atmosphere I've walked into, maybe from past forumers being too assertive.

    Rest assure that's not what I intend to do.

    I value and give priority to the psychological, and only note end-effects as they emerge consistently in many people from shared psychological attitudes.


    Btw... I'm wondering what you think of this J-P description itself?
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-07-2016 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Yes, I agree actually. I told Maritsa something very similar in this post. "Verbal (well, psychological) information is deeply important. I don't confirm a typing without taking that into account and am willing to override this visual framework when it doesn't properly describe a person's psychology. Body/expression reading is trying approximate someone's psychology via the secondary effects of psychology; it cannot define it."

    Errr, I'm sensing there's a general expectation with this topic for people to be more confident in their assumptions than warranted? It may just be an atmosphere I've walked into, maybe from past forumers being too assertive.
    I allude especially to those who use VI with complete confidence in their (alleged) method, and who cause their behaviour to be a problem by frequent assertions seemingly backed up with nothing of anything substance. It can often look like such individuals are merely representing their own biases or prejudices. There are also occasions when a type is suggested one minute, (again, with no supporting argument), but then a short while later, apparently with the same "method" in mind, they suggest a type that is rather different in nature to the first suggestion. making a whole batch of suggestions in one go is also a problem, especially if it is unsubstantiated. (I myself have resorted to such behaviour, but I usually give the caveat that I am uncertain (which should be obvious), and I do not usually claim certainty in my views on another person's personality, unless I find it especially noticeable (but even then, I usually speak along the lines of "I find that this individual's behaviour over a prolonged period of time is so contrary to that of the behaviour of an introvert, that if they are not an extrovert, then who is?" or "I believe that the suggestion of -dominance (for a person) is utterly contrary to my perception (of the person) over an extended period of time".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Rest assure that's not what I intend to do.

    I value and give priority to the psychological, and only note end-effects as they emerge consistently in many people from psychological attitudes.


    Btw... I'm wondering what you think of this J-P description itself?
    I think it matches with hypothesised extremes of those behaviours (J vs. P), and perhaps what I keep in mind when attempting to type people based on impressions. However, I don't think it is easy for to me to say I absolutely agree with it or that the "rules" I have in mind are consistently applied. I keep the whole of my "knowledge" in mind when evaluating such things - I don't believe that I consider this divide attractive. If I was an objective being, perhaps I would! I think the descriptions you have made are quite subjective - they may only make "sense" after a person has attempted their own interpretation over a period of time. (Socionics type descriptions in general are subjective, but at least those describe meaningful behaviour: this is a distinct issue from whether the types have any empirical support. But of course, the 16 types are the bedrock of Socionics, not whether someone appears rigid or not (to put it simply!).

    The Socionist Filatova kept folders of photos of people who had self-typed, and removed the photos if the person change their self-typing. I don't believe that Filatova put much (if any) weight in VI as a typing method (certainly not as a primary method), but I suspect you intend on doing something similar? (Could be done with celebrities that had been typed by a few individuals, but would not be as good).
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    i think this may be easier to apply to introverts. i've noticed dominants (i suspect chapelle might be EIE, though i don't know) can display these so-called perceiving qualities a lot. dynamic info elements can resemble irrationality.

    also i think that people can wear different faces... for instance irrationals may experience a lot of pressure in life to conform better to rigid schedules, to be able to make final/firm judgments that stick, to basically function in society as a rational would... so irrationals may adopt a facade of judgment to get by.

    likewise, rationals may at times experience pressure to be less "anal" and in learning how to better relax or go with the flow, can adopt an irrational facade. they may loosen up as time goes on (of course they may also become more rigid if they respond defensively to these pressures).

    mainly rationality and irrationality don't go well together at all. they are so fundamental to how someone operates that one *needs* to operate in that way to function. this is why these opposing modes put pressure on one another. if one mode dominates among a group of people it will put pressure on the other group to operate in the way that it does. this is why most people (unless they have had the luxury to not have to) have a facade resembling the other mode, imo.

    eta: facades usually sink more deeply into the persona with time and may not look like facades after this has gone on for too long (read: at least 5 years).

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    @Subteigh - Yes.. I think we're veering into the topic of epistemology now. (..pardon the long post!)

    I feel that, self-typings can be iffy, especially if used as the default or baseline for objective experimentation. But sometimes we don't have anything else to work with, no? And if they're accurate enough, they may be adequate enough to help uncover a more objective reality.

    I wonder what you think of this idea: "If type was ever to be quantified objectively (via EEG scans, genetic testing, etc) then we would expect for it to reveal a lot of mistypings."

    Suppose we took EEG scans of 2,000 people who self-type. Among those we see that there's significant patterns in what brain regions or activity-patterns people of different types activate. And suppose we made a "template" from this data. Then, the 2,001st patient to put on the EEG cap claims their self-typing is NeTi but their brain patterns strongly match those of the 120 Te+Ni types.

    Is it ever sensible to tell them their self-typing is mistaken? What of their self-identity? What if they wholeheartedly relate to the NeTi descriptions? Is type the aggregation of learned/acquired dispositions and attitudes toward life and preferred modes of operating, and so long as one exhibits the appropriate characteristics thereof, one is considered said type? Or is type something deeper which our current end-behavior profiles only try to approximate in order to give us agency in life?

    Having thought about this, my own opinion on the matter is that if type was objectively identified, then the definition of type would need to change. At present (because of human convenience) we utilize the idea of type to guide us through life choices, to inform us about our habits, relationships, and other things that may better suit us. But I feel that, if type is confirmed to exist as a biological reality, then it would have to be quantified outside of these human-centric concerns and subjective needs. Just as blood type doesn't really define (or is defined) by its capacity to give us utility and capability in certain fields --- type would not necessarily be defined as a personality profile, nor would relating to a profile qualify you as said type. It would enter the more objective realm and be described perhaps as a genetic disposition to use a certain documented pattern of brain processing [information processing].

    That brain processing pattern would have a sterile definition, perhaps with addendum descriptions of common behavioral outcomes --- useful for application purposes but not ultimately used to define the types.

    The Socionist Filatova kept folders of photos of people who had self-typed, and removed the photos if the person change their self-typing. I don't believe that Filatova put much (if any) weight in VI as a typing method (certainly not as a primary method), but I suspect you intend on doing something similar? (Could be done with celebrities that had been typed by a few individuals, but would not be as good).
    I have her book. Though I find this site's articles to be far more interesting.
    More or less... mhm. It's been my aim to uncover what the actuality of type really is, and still remains one of my fascinations. In my journey so far I've had to scrap a lot of concepts that didn't hold up to more strict analysis, and am not shy to do so over and over. For example, in the next month or so (I am waiting for a house sale to close so I have the funds) I will be purchasing an EEG headset and reenacting a variation of the pilot study by Dario Nardi --- but using my V.I. typed individuals instead of self-typed individuals (as Nardi used) --- to see if a neural correlation exists.

    My hypothesis in a nutshell is that micro-expressions like eyes toggling upward, downward scowling, micro contractions of the eyes, mouth, etc --- are unconscious signals being emitted from the result of brain activity. So for example, if a person's brain is engaged in active imagination (also called cross-contextualization) then as a side effect of that processing, the eyes will dart up, to the sides, left, right, etc. And if this is true, then it would say something about the psychology of those individuals whose facial mannerisms continually display a multitude of these signals. If this is the case, it also means that it may be possible to backtrace neurology via facial expressions.

    Confirming type is a complex problem, but we'll see where this goes.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-07-2016 at 09:02 PM.

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    @Sandoval I think if VI or EEGs could predict a person's self-typing to a high level of confidence, then such predictions should be considered of great value. They should be considered as a time-saving measure. I don't think you can ever completely overrule what a person says is happening in their own mind, unlike in other fields. This is just the nature of the subject!

    Nardi's research is very interesting. It would certainly be interested to begin to see the results of such research at predicting harmonious relationships for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Sandoval I think if VI or EEGs could predict a person's self-typing to a high level of confidence, then such predictions should be considered of great value. They should be considered as a time-saving measure. I don't think you can ever completely overrule what a person says is happening in their own mind, unlike in other fields. This is just the nature of the subject!
    Ah, that gets to the root of it. It's an understandable position and I respect it.
    I'm a bit of a determinist, and I happen to believe everything can be understood rationally (even consciousness) and that no part of reality is off-limits or unquantifiable. I don't feel that a person's own subjective testimony is excusable to this rule, nor by any means automatically more accurate than what opposed arguments may postulate, even about them and their own experience.

    A specialist or psychologist can know the reasons why someone does something even if the person doesn't know it themselves. Self-awareness can make the patient's interpretation of themselves more accurate than the psychologist, but that depends on their level of self-awareness.

    They are not automatically an expert on themselves simply because they're experiencing themselves in first-person. Especially not when so much of what makes them 'them' is defined by universal human tendencies which others before them have documented. We are, by and large, ignorant of why we do the majority of what we do -- and our ego (in the Jungian sense) is only the tip of the iceberg that is our entire unconscious.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-08-2016 at 05:39 AM.

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    I think the thing that @Subteigh and @inumbra is touching on is that physical manifestations may or may not be the exact copy of what is represented in the mind. The reason for this is many. I have found in CBT that it is largely dependent on the individual being self aware of how what their body does is indicative of how they feel, but to say every person's mannerisms behave the same way while feeling the same way is a stretch and is actually incredibly difficult to quantify. People have different interpretations of what they feel to begin with and when you add in different mannerisms of humanity as a whole it gets almost impossibly difficult to know that you can be certain of what that individual is feeling. This all presupposes that feeling in one form or another is a valid basis for not only diagnosis and self typing but in the way one sees the world in comparing that to others.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

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    Default Introversion & Extroversion

    Stage 2: Introversion & Extroversion

    The second stage of this process is incorporating introversion and extroversion. These two psychic dispositions are excellently described in Jung's opening pages of Psychological Types as a magnetic attraction to the 'object' (E) or the repulsion of the external for a gravitation toward the subject (I).

    But how would this redirection of attention affect our appearance?

    Lets slow down time here and analyze people closely. When the body is engaging in a subjective process, the attention of the mind is turned away (shut off) from the objective world, and this creates a disconnect from the outer. To put it in practical terms, imagine for a moment what happens when a person enters a profound state of contemplation:



    A man's attention ceases to be connected to the external world. They will abandon/neglect the outer for the pursuit of the inner. We intuitively and culturally understand this activity, as it's been the subject and representation of many of our most iconic statues:



    This is where things like the MBTI get it wrong. "Thinking" is a term that can be used to describe just about any mental process, not just "logic" ---- what we see in the above two examples is essentially introversion. It is the active accessing of inner faculties of any variety. To reiterate what Jung said, we abandon the outer for a magnetic attraction to the inner:






    When this association is accepted, it then becomes a reasonable gauge of someone's level of introversion. When we witness a person whose body is constantly receding into itself by the eyes looking down, diverting their attention from their surroundings, we know that this person is accessing internal content.

    Another way to think of this introversion/extroversion duality as manifest in the body is as proactive and reactive. The extroverted processes seek out, or have their locus of attention in some outward concept/substance. The introverted process then reflects and reacts on what the extroverted processes initiate, and mulls over it internally.


    Extroversion in Judgment & Perception

    Pe

    Now, first I would like to talk about Extroverted Perception, or as I like to call it, proactive perception. And this is defined differently in this model than in others. When a person is accessing proactive perception they are seeking out information in the real world. "Pe" is the abandonment of the subject for an absorption of the qualities and substances existing outside of the self.

    This outward attention naturally causes the eyes to be more engaged with the qualities of the external. The eyes will become alert ("seeking"), animated and receptive to impressions and input:



    Not only that, but when Pe is heavily accessed, the person will tend to drift between new impressions. Often idea-hopping or attention-hopping. "What's here!" "What's over there!" "What's under this rock?" We can all imagine a small, but rambunctious child wandering about the place, exploring its environment for the first time. This is also why I call the Pe process the Explorer process.

    When the explorer process is heavily engaged, the body will be loose, receptive, adaptive, curious and energetic. This energy comes from the proactive aspect of the process, which is eager to leap forward into a new impression and onto new information (whether that new info is literal (S) or abstract (N)).

    Pi

    Introverted perception is a bit the opposite. When we engaged introverted perception, we do not gather our information from the external. As an introverted process, Pi is innately in opposition to the outer world. The role of the subjective perception process is to seek information within the self; to delve into memory and reference pre-existing perceptions/worldviews – as it is incapable of going outward for its information: it must delve inward. I refer to this process as the Worldview process as it supplies a body of knowledge – a tapestry to draw from – for the navigation of the explorer process and the calculation of the judgment processes.

    When the body is engaged in reactive perception, it remains true that information is being sought, but not from the environment. As such, the eyes will display a similar "seeking" signal as Pe, but wholly divorced from the actuality of the environment. This seeking is taking place internally, through the bowels of memory; of subjective impressions and associations made previously.



    We have all seen the curious phenomenon of people scowling at the ground, as if attempting to find some lost object that was dropped, while the mind was entirely disconnected from the relevance of the ground, floor or environment in general. When we observe people scowling at the ground, or to their sides, what often accompanies this action is the activity of recollection. They will be searching the bowels of memory for some factoid, some opinion or detail.

    This type of perception is not the same as Pe, yet it is nonetheless a process that attains information (P) -- but from precedent. When we see people who are constantly zoning-out, as they look to the sides and drift off into a slideshow of images and impressions, we will see a person with strong access of internal perception.


    ~~
    *breathes* I'll stop there for now.
    I'll get to Ji and Je in the next run.
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-10-2016 at 06:38 AM.

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    Have you watched my video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Have you watched my video?
    Which one?
    (....no, I don't think I have)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandoval View Post
    Which one?
    (....no, I don't think I have)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAkzRoiDjg

    excuse me for all the judging

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAkzRoiDjg

    excuse me for all the judging
    Ah, yes. You have very prominent Ji (which was next on my list =P ). You're a very clear Ji-type.

    Extroverted Judgment

    In both judgment processes (Ji, Je) the body is prone toward a type of contained coordination [or at least the absence of extraneous motion]. When Je is engaged, that is when we see a proactive coming-outward of judgment. Je is an expressive and proactive function, but this action is oriented toward the calculation of judgment.

    What results is all those accentuated motions described in the OP.



    Introverted Judgment

    Oppositely, when the body is both introverted and judgmental (Ji) --- that is to say, it's going into itself to reference one's inner sense of private conviction --- it does not display outward expressions. And yet, the body remains rigid as it goes inside itself.

    Unlike Pi, which goes into itself alongside a very loose body rhythm, drifting idly from one side to another as they look to the ground, when Ji goes into itself it remains poised but the body will freeze. Ji will halt the momentum of the body, almost entirely. The eyes disengage and look downward, and the hands may take a more technical or delicate posture:



    The hands often become delicate at the wrists, with the fingers spread out in a meticulous way. Ji is a process of inner precision and harmony, and as the Ji-type goes into herself to find this inner alignment, that sense of precision will translate over onto their body.

    In Summary:

    - Eyes Disengaging Down
    - Momentum Halting
    - Delicate/Meticulous Hands
    - Body Freezing
    - Rigid Posture
    Last edited by Sandoval; 05-09-2016 at 08:55 AM.

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    This is excellent stuff and deserves wider attention around here than being buried as an aging thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    This is excellent stuff and deserves wider attention around here than being buried as an aging thread.
    yes it does

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    David Chappelle irrational?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    David Chappelle irrational?
    yes of course

    @Op

    I collapse into myself all the time.

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    Human communication follows the 7-38-55 rule, everything is conveyed via 7% words, 38% voice, 55% body language. So this method seems worth keeping an eye on quite literally if we go about typing through communication style and not V.I

    Any thoughts/ info on intonation (the 38% part)?

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