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Thread: ESTj Description by I/O

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    Default ESTj Description by I/O

    ESTjs are inquisitive, assertive, energetic and hard-working, and really push for speedy closure of everything they start. They like utility, reliability and productivity, and seem to be impressed by insightful, functional solutions. Being practical, they can easily adopt new ideas, technologies and tools. They're alert, diligent and thrifty; they also foresee the best ways to employ people and things, and to provide for the future. They evaluate and judge everything in terms of feasibility and utility. They're also able to drop everything and just relax.

    They can be very caring, providing for the material needs of those close. They help others in deeds not in words because they're not that emotionally supportive. However, they love holidays, celebrations, abundant food and are usually able to cater well to guests. They love long fruitful conversations and impressing others with their competence. They're very stable in friendship and will go out of their way to return kindness and loyalty. They'll often neglect their own needs and health while looking after others. However, they seem to adapt to the moods of those around them so when people quarrel or are distrustful, ESTj disposition can become rather judgemental and harsh. They have no problem getting into someone's face.

    In communication, they tend to be open and curious; and good intentions are usually relayed through their humour and positivism. Frequently, they come across as too direct, subtlety not being their strong point. They can also become rather hot tempered in arguments or overtaken by rage to the point that they no longer hear the opinions of others and stubbornly insist on their own views. Rarely will they openly admit that they were wrong. However, if opponents remain restrained and do not succumb to bullying, ESTjs become more reflective and cautious. When needed, they can restrain their emotions but sometimes that takes a huge effort on their part.

    ESTjs hate chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, or transgressions of their norms, rules and or agreements. They seem to need a guaranteed, predictable future since they know that they poorly anticipate problems. They try to gain full understanding and exhaustively prepare themselves before starting any serious endeavour because they need to be ready for every eventuality. However, their impatience can cause them to overlook important considerations but having to fix their plans later can make them very anxious, irritable and or angry.

    ESTjs know how to put people to work and challenge them, and they're very intolerant of those they consider parasites or idlers.They want people to be honest, punctual, and above all, helpful so they really appreciate those who make conscientious effort for them. When starting work, they suddenly stop talking and immediately get down to business. They can be masters of discipline and organization but are usually not that good at providing detailed instructions; they prefer that others simply mimic them.

    ESTjs are not very analytical or intuitive, but they do know a good thing when they see it. They prefer to determine their requirements and plans through study of what others have done or through brainstorming with someone or in group. They'll cross-examine and or research to the nth degree until they're certain of what needs to be done; they certainly know how to extract information and apply it. Because they need certainty, they want closure and don't like open-ended questions, projects or scenarios.

    They cannot seem to live without purpose or without having a clear objective before them, and success inspires them most of all. The closure of one step in a project gives them inspiration and boost for the next until they've gone the full distance. They don't usually like doing steps in parallel because they seem afraid of making mistakes, causing confusion or putting the cart before the horse. They know that when they're disoriented or see no immediate solution, they grow very nervous and lose their edge so productivity goes in the toilet. They hate it when others interfere in their affairs or force them to redo work.

    ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf. They're strongly focused on their processes and objectives but often overlook the sensitivities and needs of others. They're critical in evaluating the behaviour and productivity of others while ignoring their own shortcomings, and they can express their displeasure rather corrosively.

    ESTjs enjoy competition and are venturesome, especially if there is a need to prove something. They like being leader of the pack; if they're not, they'll look for weakness in the leadership; and if they can't find any, they'll likely move on to greener pastures. Being perceived as important, substantial, or the best seems to be a goal of most ESTj. They can be very self-righteous and bold in pursuing success but sometimes these forays can be rather rash or impetuous, and that temper is always a possibility. However the motto for them seems to be: nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Although they usually have little interest in hobbies or diversions, they do love interaction with others so will participate in activities that facilitate this. Though traditional and conservative by nature, they also strive to keep up with the times and will not cling too strongly to old ways. As boisterous and open as they may appear, it can be difficult to get close to or please them because they're very discriminating and impose high standards. However, despite their brusqueness and posturing, they're quite sentimental and well meaning.
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 04-29-2016 at 09:21 PM.

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    Good work! I especially like the sentence "ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf", which captures an important essence about LSE's: as much as I like them on the informal, personal level, this is what makes LSE's very difficult to work with. They don't allow people any slack or space to to things in a different way with the same results, which in turn results in other people not being as effective or productive as they can be.

    Many LSE's believe that most other people are not as productive or efficient as they themselves are, but they don't see how their own behavior creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    This is a pretty good description!
    It describes my LSE dad (almost exactly) to a Tee.

    The only two aspects which are not that accurate are those:

    • "They're also able to drop everything and just relax."
    Not really. This may be partly due to my father being E3 SP, but he has troubles with letting himself relax and just not work for once. On vacations, he always brings his work with him. For him, relaxation has to be somewhat planned, and even then, it is often not relaxation in its entirety. The most relaxing thing he does is watching TV in bed after work. Or sometimes, in the summer, he will decide to relax after work, get a comfortable chair, and sunbath in the garden. But again, even this action has a productive reason behind it: getting tan. He does not sit outside for the relaxation alone. There always has to be a secondary component of efficiency behind his relaxation.

    • "They'll often neglect their own needs and health while looking after others."
    Yes and no. He does not go through extremes by totally neglecting his health when helping others, but he will put his own needs behind him to help those who are in greater need and who he deems to be "close" to him, like family and perhaps certain friends.

    I assume you wrote this description, @Rebelondeck? If so, I am looking forward to seeing more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    This is a pretty good description!

    • "They're also able to drop everything and just relax."
    Not really.
    • "They'll often neglect their own needs and health while looking after others."
    Yes and no.
    SisOfNight,

    I know/knew many ESTj (my mother being one). I found when they went to a party, it was all about the party; they left their normal work behind although the did work at the party on party stuff. Now modern technology may have changed that dynamic. You make a good point......

    I found that female ESTj were very self-sacrificing, more so than the men but the men had it as well; however, I never studied the phenomena beyond a family/friend environment.

    Consentingadult,

    Work is often dog-eat-dog and ESTjs do well in this type of environment.....

    All,

    I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types. No one has yet said anything to the contrary about this aspect, which I emphasized. I've yet to figure out the root cause; perhaps it's a combination of lack of intuition and the closed-loop need for immediate closure. I don't know of an ESTj or ISTp that doesn't have this trait; and when these two types interact, the phenomena can become very apparent very quickly. And, all were nice, well-meaning people......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    SisOfNight,

    I know/knew many ESTj (my mother being one). I found when they went to a party, it was all about the party; they left their normal work behind although the did work at the party on party stuff. Now modern technology may have changed that dynamic. You make a good point......

    I found that female ESTj were very self-sacrificing, more so than the men but the men had it as well; however, I never studied the phenomena beyond a family/friend environment.

    Consentingadult,

    Work is often dog-eat-dog and ESTjs do well in this type of environment.....

    All,

    I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types. No one has yet said anything to the contrary about this aspect, which I emphasized. I've yet to figure out the root cause; perhaps it's a combination of lack of intuition and the closed-loop need for immediate closure. I don't know of an ESTj or ISTp that doesn't have this trait; and when these two types interact, the phenomena can become very apparent very quickly. And, all were nice, well-meaning people......

    a.k.a. I/O
    This is a remarkable portrait of ESTj's. Entirely accurate, IMO. My mother is ESTj and my father is ISTp, and the inner rage thing is an interesting way to look at it. My mother openly expressed her rage in every imaginable way, and my father denied his rage, but it was clearly there. My father volunteered for two wars and survived hand-to-hand knife fights when they ran out of ammunition and their position was overrun, and I always wondered how a guy who worked in finance and never left his desk could do that. Inner rage, obviously. Plus, his childhood was extremely difficult.
    This common world view must be what keeps them together. My ESTj mother and ISTp father don't speak to each other much, don't go out, and don't have friends. They are like two strangers, who don't like each other much, living together in a house in a foreign country where neither of them speaks the language, and neither wishes to learn or change.
    My ISTp ex-wife also denies her rage, but it is clearly there.

    Regarding ESTj's, yes, they can make good managers of people in low-level jobs that are very well-defined, because they think they know best and have no trouble telling others what to do. But they are terrible for creative jobs (other than when they themselves are perfecting something, which they are actually very good at). They often have emotional blind spots, and working for one, if you have any spark of independence or initiative or creativity, can be hell. They want everyone to conform to their rules and to fit perfectly into their world, including you and all of your thoughts. And if you don't, well, there is that inner rage.... I've had a couple of ESTj bosses in my life. Never again.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-30-2016 at 04:13 PM.

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    Adam Strange,

    I knew ESTjs who efficiently ran big organizations (though not scientific or innovative, many military officers and lawyers); they were velvet hammers, which are the more sophisticated bullies. My ISTp acquaintances are equally intelligent but not very high in rank; they're, by far, much more lethal, and they all hate bullies. ESTjs telegraph their rage but not ISTp......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    There's one thing I would like to add about LSEs, and that is that in my interaction with them I have much to owe to Socionics. Whenever I run into one that's too demanding (and I often do, because I work as a chef at various different places each week) and starts to complain or put pressure on me, I simply tell them that what they see is what they get, and that I fully understand my performance might not live up to their expectations, in which case I am most happy to leave or ask my agency to not send me again. All with a blatantly polite courtesy and respect... After that it's usually them that walk on eggshells, instead of me ;-)

    I must add that not all LSEs are overly demanding. Some are way less extreme and just need a little time to adapt to. In which cases we just get along great.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    on the LSE knowing a good thing when they see it. They base this on who is a "good" person determined by moral qualities of that person and what they observe in action. For instance a "good" person is someone who looks after their elderly neighbor, as an LSE observed in me once when I questioned some young men trying to get into my elderly neighbor's apartment. I asked them who they were and if they knew her fearing for her well being.

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    And I should also add one more thing about LSE's, and that is that they can make great friends. In fact, my best friend is an LSE. Honestly, if I couldn't be me, I'd want to be him. He is, however, the best, most mentally healthy LSE I've ever met. Additionally, I don't work for him, nor he for me, so our relationship is based on friendship, respect, and mutual understanding and appreciation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types.
    A lot of the Delta STs are Type 1 (in the Enneagram), which is exactly about inner rage and the suppression of such, through the ideal and pursuit of perfection.
    Seems like most Delta STs you've known were Type 1.

    I can say that most SLIs I met were most likely Type 1.
    The healthier ones are much more balanced and flexible. The less healthy ones are very strict, tight-up, and difficult to deal with (esp. as an IEI).

    Then there are also Type 9 SLIs. Type 9 being a fellow Gut Type, they also have Anger issues which are even more repressed than is the case with Type 1.
    (That is why Type 9s are usually rather easy to get along with, whatever their Socionics type – their anger is so repressed, it hardly ever comes out.
    But boy, if it does... It can resemble a Type 8's anger, esp. when they are a 9w8... It can be scary.)

    At last, the third most common Enneagram type for SLIs is Type 6. Those are the more cerebral SLIs...

    All in all, I attribute those anger issues (besides Enneagram type) to weak . Because IME, all types with weakened had anger issues, and general issues with expressing their emotions in a sensible manner.
    Interestingly, unhealthy leading types will act very similarly to types with weak .
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    .........All in all, I attribute those anger issues (besides Enneagram type) to weak . Because IME, all types with weakened had anger issues, and general issues with expressing their emotions in a sensible manner........
    SisOfNight,

    There are other types that lack Fe, me being one, that don't have that undercurrent of judgemental or indignant rage. All types get angry or blow up for various reasons but it doesn't seem to pervade their existence to the point where it continually has to be kept in check (some ESTjs/ISTps are better at it than others). I don't imply that ESTj or ISTp are bad in any way but it's seems as if rage (or something that looks very much like rage) is their motivating force as Adam Strange had said above. Even the cerebral of these types seem to think the world needs to be taught a lesson; from this assumption, the only difference among them is intensity of the resulting display......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    And I should also add one more thing about LSE's, and that is that they can make great friends. In fact, my best friend is an LSE. Honestly, if I couldn't be me, I'd want to be him. He is, however, the best, most mentally healthy LSE I've ever met. Additionally, I don't work for him, nor he for me, so our relationship is based on friendship, respect, and mutual understanding and appreciation.
    i love my duals most (there's always an occasional ass hole in every type that's due to circumstance)

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    Here's Ni Ni..."I have only 15 minute to do this" Planned action Te "This is what I'll be doing today..." "This is what I do.."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue43NhXSsDc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post

    All,

    I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types. No one has yet said anything to the contrary about this aspect, which I emphasized. I've yet to figure out the root cause; perhaps it's a combination of lack of intuition and the closed-loop need for immediate closure. I don't know of an ESTj or ISTp that doesn't have this trait; and when these two types interact, the phenomena can become very apparent very quickly. And, all were nice, well-meaning people......

    a.k.a. I/O
    I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.
    Um..no.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Um..no.
    Always give an explanation before criticizing please. It greatly annoys me when people shoot down someone else's statement without providing reasoning or backing as to why they are wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types.
    I strongly disagree with this. Delta STs do not have "inner anger or rage" as a rule. This is much more characteristic of Se ego types, especially Beta STs who struggle with expressing their emotions in a healthy manner. It suggests you have confused them, as do these quotes:

    ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf. They're strongly focused on their processes and objectives but often overlook the sensitivities and needs of others. They're critical in evaluating the behaviour and productivity of others while ignoring their own shortcomings, and they can express their displeasure rather corrosively.
    "ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf."
    Why would a type that values Ne and not Se display this behavior?

    ESTjs enjoy competition and are venturesome, especially if there is a need to prove something. They like being leader of the pack; if they're not, they'll look for weakness in the leadership; and if they can't find any, they'll likely move on to greener pastures. Being perceived as important, substantial, or the best seems to be a goal of most ESTj. They can be very self-righteous and bold in pursuing success but sometimes these forays can be rather rash or impetuous, and that temper is always a possibility.

    Although they usually have little interest in hobbies or diversions, they do love interaction with others so will participate in activities that facilitate this.
    LSEs do naturally take a leadership role, but I would hardly say that it's a compulsion or that power (again, an Se theme) is something they seek out for itself. LSEs do not care much at all about how they are perceived. I'm not sure that they "love interaction with others" either; I would say that they focus their energy on activities that are both productive and enjoyable, and often this means working together with other people. But they are good-natured in general, and tend to be very emotionally balanced. I also disagree that they are "corrosive", this is much more typical of Resolute logical types.

    The earlier part of the description is better but you have not correlated anything with the information elements, and you probably could go deeper into the motivations behind the behavior.

    ESTjs hate chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, or transgressions of their norms, rules and or agreements. They seem to need a guaranteed, predictable future since they know that they poorly anticipate problems. They try to gain full understanding and exhaustively prepare themselves before starting any serious endeavour because they need to be ready for every eventuality. However, their impatience can cause them to overlook important considerations but having to fix their plans later can make them very anxious, irritable and or angry.
    This is just plain wrong. Hating "chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, transgressions of their norms, rules, agreements" - these are all Beta ST characteristics, this is all TiSe. LSEs do not have a concept of "transgression of their norms", or if they do they don't care about it. They are extremely flexible with their expectations of others and themselves, and definitely do not exhaustively prepare themselves, in fact they tend to act in the moment and be generally unaware of the need for preparation (Ni PoLR). I also hardly think that they are "anxious, irritable, or angry" - certainly not anxious because they are focused on enjoying the present moment (i.e. Si). If anything, it's the opposite: they tend to ignore problems (as do most Si valuers) and take an overly optimistic outlook that they can deal with things as they come. SLIs can be described as irritable because of a general lack of Fe, but LSEs have role Fe which means they generally try to present a positive attitude.

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    The hotelambush,

    I found Beta STs angry only after being attacked or threatened and they can be very vengeful, but curiosity/desire is more of their motivating force.

    Turf ownership seems correlated to their not being able to accurately predict relational consequence and their need for filtered (narrow) feedback in their information control. Any disarray widens feedback and obscures predictability; the knee-jerk solution seems to be: 'quash it'. Leadership and power is the best way to assure predictability of the future.

    Their externalized rationalization processes need interaction with others big time; the opposite of Ti-types.

    All T-types can be corrosive but for different reasons; ESTjs seem to be when they want obedience or compliance and asking nicely has failed. But, like my description said, they are, for the most part, positive types.

    I deviate greatly from the Socionics models and I agree that I have not gone into sufficient depth in a lot of areas. I did not try to post anything as articles on this site (I doubt they would let me) because I know I don't use the same prayer book. I'd like to hear from ESTjs or those who know them well whether or not my description fits, call it an anecdotal validation process. From you, it's obvious that I have a 'no'. I really do thank you for taking the time to reply in the detail that you have.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    thehotelambush,

    The way that I see type is that there are only two functions in cognitive processing: input and output. However, these control functions can be arranged in two configurations: open and closed loop. All types employ both of these. Now, temperament is a genetic random selection of what function leads processing and whether one predominantly employs open or closed loop-control. This makes four possible configurations and the choice of one forces a type to use either internalized or externalized references as primary.

    There is limited bandwidth in I/O control so the brain has to pare down information and limit rationalization. This is where the preferences (N, S, T, F) act as filters or limits so that processing is manageable; therefore, each function will employ either relative (N, F) or absolute (S,T) processes. The possible combinations create sixteen possible types. One combination is dominant simply for stability purposes (the prime directive is a stable ego); however, other configurations are useable to the extent that stability won't be compromised. Now, there can be breakdowns in stability but I have not explored that.

    To label, for example, Ne as a separate function from Se is fundamentally flawed. It's really the same input function with a different filter. The same analogy holds true for rationalization limits.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I deviate greatly from the Socionics models and I agree that I have not gone into sufficient depth in a lot of areas.
    ok, well at least you admit it. Nothing you are talking about is based on any relation to Model A or the IM elements, so it's not really socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ok, well at least you admit it. Nothing you are talking about is based on any relation to Model A or the IM elements, so it's not really socionics.
    thehotelambush,

    So are you are implying that Model A and the IM elements cover all the bases in explaining type behaviour?


    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    thehotelambush,

    So are you are implying that Model A and the IM elements cover all the bases in explaining type behaviour?


    a.k.a. I/O
    This seems like a strawman argument. For the most part, if a behavior can be related to socionics, it can be related to Model A or the IM elements. Arguably dichotomies also play a role but Model A gives a deeper explanation. Certainly Jungian dichotomies on their own don't cover all the bases.
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 05-07-2016 at 04:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Always give an explanation before criticizing please. It greatly annoys me when people shoot down someone else's statement without providing reasoning or backing as to why they are wrong.
    The last two sentences of that post are totally wrong for delta STs. There is no latent aggression, competitiveness, and confrontational nature to them. Especially not in ISTps, and certainly the same could be said of LSEs. I don't know where you are basing that off of? I hope its not the red head character from The Walking Dead?

    And to speak about Si being consciouslly and therefore implicitly strained function for someone like say an SLI, shows your as yet lack of understanding into that sociotype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. Delta STs do not have "inner anger or rage" as a rule. This is much more characteristic of Se ego types, especially Beta STs who struggle with expressing their emotions in a healthy manner. It suggests you have confused them, as do these quotes:



    "ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf."
    Why would a type that values Ne and not Se display this behavior?



    LSEs do naturally take a leadership role, but I would hardly say that it's a compulsion or that power (again, an Se theme) is something they seek out for itself. LSEs do not care much at all about how they are perceived. I'm not sure that they "love interaction with others" either; I would say that they focus their energy on activities that are both productive and enjoyable, and often this means working together with other people. But they are good-natured in general, and tend to be very emotionally balanced. I also disagree that they are "corrosive", this is much more typical of Resolute logical types.

    The earlier part of the description is better but you have not correlated anything with the information elements, and you probably could go deeper into the motivations behind the behavior.



    This is just plain wrong. Hating "chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, transgressions of their norms, rules, agreements" - these are all Beta ST characteristics, this is all TiSe. LSEs do not have a concept of "transgression of their norms", or if they do they don't care about it. They are extremely flexible with their expectations of others and themselves, and definitely do not exhaustively prepare themselves, in fact they tend to act in the moment and be generally unaware of the need for preparation (Ni PoLR). I also hardly think that they are "anxious, irritable, or angry" - certainly not anxious because they are focused on enjoying the present moment (i.e. Si). If anything, it's the opposite: they tend to ignore problems (as do most Si valuers) and take an overly optimistic outlook that they can deal with things as they come. SLIs can be described as irritable because of a general lack of Fe, but LSEs have role Fe which means they generally try to present a positive attitude.
    For arguments sake it has been my experince that LSE in professional leadership and managment position do have a tendency to over plan and over prepare the daily logistical tasks they and others are responsible for. And further, they have a tendency to verbalize their thinking in an effort to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    Personally, I find this habit unnecessary and annoying, especially since plans change so much throughout the day, which usually leads to a palabable stress emanating from the LSE. Perhaps this is the latent aggression muddy textures is talking about?

    This immediate switching their minds, or inflexibilty, is not an easy trait for LSE in the work place and it can lead, in the long run, to their insuffurable habit of workplace anxiety, which bleeds over into other employees. Small things become a disaster as they are forced to adapt to hangups that were not a part of the plans. LSE, unlike the SLI, are not the type to withhold expressing their Te frustrations.

    Plus, they are Ne orientated, which in the work place looks like a conscious effort by them to find all the variables of what could and can happen in regards, usually exclusively, to the Te matters that are important to their Universe. In other words, they will try to cover all their bases and usually will do so usually verbally, before, during, and after a task. This can and does look like overkill.

    Yet even throughout all of this, LSE seem to remain the consummate proffesional, even if they are not always mellow in regards to what needs to be done and how it should be accomplished. They are orientated towards good and stable work place relationships between them and their colleagues and will not use undue pressure not warranted within the confines of what is appropriate in that particular workplace setting.

    However, they are in the asking dicotomy so their style of interaction in the workplace is more interrogation seeming then anything. This may seem confrontational about productivity, your actions, methods to do the small and large tasks you are assigned and even the placement of tools and the overall set up of your work place, yet at its heart, it really is not. LSE just can't seem to help themselves interject in this way with this style of communication.

    For instance, "Why did you put that wrench over here, it is supposed to go over there?" "Where are you guys going right now, when we discussed going over there?" "How come you used that way of doing it when it is much quicker doing it this way?" [some use of algorithmic cognition in these examples].
    Last edited by wacey; 05-07-2016 at 04:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    For arguments sake it has been my experince that LSE in professional leadership and managment position do have a tendency to over plan and over prepare the daily logistical tasks they and others are responsible for. And further, they have a tendency to verbalize their thinking in an effort to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    Personally, I find this habit unnecessary and annoying, especially since plans change so much throughout the day, which usually leads to a palabable stress emanating from the LSE. Perhaps this is the latent aggression muddy textures is talking about?

    This immediate switching their minds, or inflexibilty, is not an easy trait for LSE in the work place and it can lead, in the long run, to their insuffurable habit of workplace anxiety, which bleeds over into other employees. Small things become a disaster as they are forced to adapt to hangups that were not a part of the plans. LSE, unlike the SLI, are not the type to withhold expressing their Te frustrations.

    Plus, they are Ne orientated, which in the work place looks like a conscious effort by them to find all the variables of what could and can happen in regards, usually exclusively, to the Te matters that are important to their Universe. In other words, they will try to cover all their bases and usually will do so usually verbally, before, during, and after a task. This can and does look like overkill.

    Yet even throughout all of this, LSE seem to remain the consummate proffesional, even if they are not always mellow in regards to what needs to be done and how it should be accomplished. They are orientated towards good and stable work place relationships between them and their collegues.

    However, they are in the asking dicotomy so their style of interaction in the workplace is more interrogation seeming then anything. This may seem confrontational about productivity, your actions, methods to do the small and large tasks you are assigned and even the placement of tools and the overall set up of your work place, yet at its heart, it really is not. LSE just can't seem to help themselves interject in this way with this style of communication.

    For instance, "Why did you put that wrench over here, it is supposed to go over there?" "Where are you guys going right now, when we discussed going over there?" "How come you used that way of doing it when it is much quicker doing it this way?" [some use of algorithmic cognition in these examples].
    I strongly disagree.

    This kind of micro-management of wanting to do things in a specific way, with all other ways being wrong, is completely antithetical to how Deltas, who value and not or , operate. If anything, their expectations for people are poorly expressed (even passive-aggressively at times) and this is often frustrating to types that value . Gamma NTs do very often harshly criticize how people do things, but this involves Se and Ni just as much as Te. What Delta STs expect is that when people are working, they are going to focus on work and not do frivolous things like socialize. I have seen LSEs get annoyed because of this before. But beyond that, they are not going to care much about the precise methods that people use to get things done, as long as the result is the same. The opposite of this is to adhere to a principle of the right way to do things, aka . Deltas are mostly going to mind their own business in the workplace if they can, to avoid conflict.

    Plus, they are Ne orientated, which in the work place looks like a conscious effort by them to find all the variables of what could and can happen
    I've seen this said often, is it an MBTI concept or something? This is not but . Preparation, planning for the future is an Ni theme. Someone who is focusing on Ne is naturally open to possibilities and does not fear that things could go wrong. A type with PoLR is going to be basically ignorant of the idea that anything could go wrong, and will often be blindsided when they do. What you are talking about is more like Mobilizing as in LSIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I strongly disagree.

    This kind of micro-management of wanting to do things in a specific way, with all other ways being wrong, is completely antithetical to how Deltas, who value and not or , operate. If anything, their expectations for people are poorly expressed (even passive-aggressively at times) and this is often frustrating to types that value . Gamma NTs do very often harshly criticize how people do things, but this involves Se and Ni just as much as Te. What Delta STs expect is that when people are working, they are going to focus on work and not do frivolous things like socialize. I have seen LSEs get annoyed because of this before. But beyond that, they are not going to care much about the precise methods that people use to get things done, as long as the result is the same. The opposite of this is to adhere to a principle of the right way to do things, aka . Deltas are mostly going to mind their own business in the workplace if they can, to avoid conflict.



    I've seen this said often, is it an MBTI concept or something? This is not but . Preparation, planning for the future is an Ni theme. Someone who is focusing on Ne is naturally open to possibilities and does not fear that things could go wrong. A type with PoLR is going to be basically ignorant of the idea that anything could go wrong, and will often be blindsided when they do. What you are talking about is more like Mobilizing as in LSIs.
    Have you ever worked for an LSE? Honestly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Have you ever worked for an LSE? Honestly?
    Yes in fact I have.

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    This is business logic, productivity, efficiency, systems of preparing work, getting as much done in a day as possible in the shortest amount of time, managing employees and teams all of which are assigned differing tasks and making sure products and resources are managed to maximize out put. Are you telling me LSE are some kind of cowboys at there? flying off the seat of their pants and just winging it? Preparation and planning for the future is absolutely within the realm of black logic. The logic of actions. the logic of what should be done and how best to do it.

    Maybe SLI wouldnt care how other people are doing tasks, they will just do them the way they think is right themselves. LSE are a totally different story. Why else would they rub the Betas the wrong way if it was not for being pedantic about Te?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Yes in fact I have.
    For an Ne characters, you are really missing the gist of what I am saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Preparation and planning for the future is absolutely within the realm of black logic.
    Before you said this was , now it's ?

    The logic of actions. the logic of what should be done and how best to do it.
    Sure, but the way you've characterized the manner in which LSEs express this value is not accurate.

    Maybe SLI wouldnt care how other people are doing tasks, they will just do them the way they think is right themselves. LSE are a totally different story. Why else would they rub the Betas the wrong way if it was not for being pedantic about Te?
    They would rub them the wrong way for not thinking about the future consequences or the deeper significance of what they are doing. They would also rub them the wrong way for not expressing their expectations clearly or adhering to firm principles, rather adopting an opportunistic attitude of deriving benefit in whatever way is available ( > ).

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    You are going 1=1 here. You are saying only planning preparing and thinking about the future is in the realm of Ni. Paint by numbers socionics is lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Before you said this was , now it's ?


    Sure, but the way you've characterized the manner in which LSEs express this value is not accurate.


    They would rub them the wrong way for not thinking about the future consequences or the deeper significance of what they are doing. They would also rub them the wrong way for not expressing their expectations clearly or adhering to firm principles, rather adopting an opportunistic attitude of deriving benefit in whatever way is available ( > ).
    In my experience working closely with LSE in a mid sized company that my assessment is actually extremely accurate. Of course you don't have to believe me and thats fine.

    They would rub them the wrong way by going for the actions of how to do something instead of the underlying process involved in order that others may find and discover their own ways of preforming an act Ti vs Te.. Ti will explain and maybe reexplain, but they will not expect that it should be done exclusively the way they might do it. LSE will have this expectation that things are done their way, period. And if you are doing it differently then there is definitely something wrong with you.

    And to say LSE are not aware about future implications of their's and other's actions in the realm of Te is false. They want to do something right the first time, which leads to a extended preparation period. The devil is in the details when it comes to black logic. You must be thinking about SLIs or something here.
    Last edited by wacey; 05-07-2016 at 06:46 PM.
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    Typical day:

    Good-morning.

    I made sure the light is turned on the in the change room for you guys so you can see in there. I realize you can flip the switch yourselves but I just wanted to help out and give you a head start. Yesterday I had a look through your guys invoices and so I have ordered them in the order that is best to get to the most houses today. Hey how did you get here to did you get your trucks new tires on? I've seen a pretty good deal at fountain tire this last weekend, 1/4 off new winter tires. It might be something you want to look into. Another thing when you go out to truck number 8 the one thing I want you to be aware of is the engine leak I find last Tuesday, you guys need to be keep putting oil in that truck else its going to get over heated and Im going to have to talk in back to Joe Blows car shop for engine repairs, which is going to cost me another $400, so lets keep that on our radar today, don't worry I will remind you again in another couple hours of what I just told you so that we dont all forget about it and we all keep it in our intuition.

    So you guys are headed out there today? Like you do everday since you started working here?? alright well you have a good day, and oh do you have all the tools that you usually bring out everyday for the past 6 months, let me just remind you of what they are supposed to bring. You need to be bringing the pruners and maybe the loppers and probably you should give them a quick sharpening as I didn't have time to get to it yesterday because I had to head out to such and such place late after work and I didn't get home until after 9.

    So do you need anything more then, or are you good? You are good, awesome, well do you have my cell phone number in case anything goes wrong out there? Where are you guys headed first here just so I'm aware of what I need to have you guys doing in three hours so I can set something else up here for you to do? So, how did it go out there? Did you guys manage to hit that one property today? Why didnt you do the homes in the order I put them in? Now you have wasted time for tomorrow. They phoned in and were wondering where you guys were?

    How did they truck work out did you need to fill it up again? Something to stay aware of is what you guys are doing with the paper work because the front desk is getting overwhelmed when things are not in order. Should I remind you of what I said tomorrow? I think I will do that so there are not any mix up?

    When you where out there what did the trees look like? Its pretty nasty in there I remember from last year to save time on that place I drove around the back with the trailer in this very specific manner which I am going to tell you right now at the end of the day as you are walking out the door so that you remember for next time you go there in a couple months to save on time.

    Ok, so you guys are off now? Well you have yourselves a great night, I am going to stick around here longer just do a few things to get ready for tomorrow. Maybe you can stick around just a bit longer even though I dont pay overtime, but it would really help me?? I would like to have the shop cleaned up next week and the new barrels are coming in, I'll just telll you about it now even though it has no bearing on you or your work life here. Let's make sure we have all the tools cleaned up and ready for tomorrow as well I would like to get an early start on that one big job. So 5 am you will be there?

    Perfect thats great we will see you then.

    And so on and so forth every single day, day in and day out.

    ^ Black Logic. Filled with Ne information. All verbalized. Blocked with Si. With expectations that others follow the leader. Hi hi looking at you lackey EII.
    Last edited by wacey; 05-08-2016 at 12:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    The last two sentences of that post are totally wrong for delta STs. There is no latent aggression, competitiveness, and confrontational nature to them. Especially not in ISTps, and certainly the same could be said of LSEs. I don't know where you are basing that off of? I hope its not the red head character from The Walking Dead?

    And to speak about Si being consciouslly and therefore implicitly strained function for someone like say an SLI, shows your as yet lack of understanding into that sociotype.
    Then we will simply have to disagree, same goes for @thehotelambush. The redhead character from the Walking Dead IS a shining example of a typical LSE. Yes, he is an acted character, but I've seen others in real life who very closely mimicked his personality and I'm only using him as an example. What would you type him? He is not SLE, I can tell you that much. I don't have as much experience with SLI so I can't speak for them, but I believe it is a similar case with them just not as extreme as LSE. I do not believe the IEs simply "go away" when they are placed in the Id, but rather then manifest in a more primitive, instinctual form. Model A sucks IMO.

    Beta ST aggression is manifested in more of a "Lets go to Nam and smoke some chincs" kind of way, while Delta ST aggression manifest more as going into a rage and engaging in domestic abuse. Look at the Delta VI thread and tell me you don't get a vibe of domestic abuse from them. I'm am not attempting to bash deltas by the way but the idea that they are angels because of having Si in the ego is very wrong.
    Last edited by Muddy; 05-07-2016 at 10:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Beta ST aggression is manifested in more a "Lets go to Nam and smoke some chincs" kind of way, while Delta ST aggression manifest more as going into a rage and engaging in domestic abuse. Look at the Delta VI thread and tell me you don't get a vibe of domestic abuse from them. I'm am not attempting to bash deltas by the way but the idea that they are angels because of having Si in the ego is very wrong.
    Model A is really deep and beautiful if you take the time to understand it. The descriptions you've given are offensive and crude by comparison.

    The Id functions are something we use mostly for ourselves, as a tool. However, we don't let them get in the way of our Ego functions (as, say, engaging in violence on a regular basis would do with ), and they yield easily when others signal that they're not wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    For arguments sake it has been my experince that LSE in professional leadership and managment position do have a tendency to over plan and over prepare the daily logistical tasks they and others are responsible for. And further, they have a tendency to verbalize their thinking in an effort to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    Personally, I find this habit unnecessary and annoying, especially since plans change so much throughout the day, which usually leads to a palabable stress emanating from the LSE. Perhaps this is the latent aggression muddy textures is talking about?

    This immediate switching their minds, or inflexibilty, is not an easy trait for LSE in the work place and it can lead, in the long run, to their insuffurable habit of workplace anxiety, which bleeds over into other employees. Small things become a disaster as they are forced to adapt to hangups that were not a part of the plans. LSE, unlike the SLI, are not the type to withhold expressing their Te frustrations.

    Plus, they are Ne orientated, which in the work place looks like a conscious effort by them to find all the variables of what could and can happen in regards, usually exclusively, to the Te matters that are important to their Universe. In other words, they will try to cover all their bases and usually will do so usually verbally, before, during, and after a task. This can and does look like overkill.

    Yet even throughout all of this, LSE seem to remain the consummate proffesional, even if they are not always mellow in regards to what needs to be done and how it should be accomplished. They are orientated towards good and stable work place relationships between them and their colleagues and will not use undue pressure not warranted within the confines of what is appropriate in that particular workplace setting.

    However, they are in the asking dicotomy so their style of interaction in the workplace is more interrogation seeming then anything. This may seem confrontational about productivity, your actions, methods to do the small and large tasks you are assigned and even the placement of tools and the overall set up of your work place, yet at its heart, it really is not. LSE just can't seem to help themselves interject in this way with this style of communication.

    For instance, "Why did you put that wrench over here, it is supposed to go over there?" "Where are you guys going right now, when we discussed going over there?" "How come you used that way of doing it when it is much quicker doing it this way?" [some use of algorithmic cognition in these examples].
    This is a great post wacey. LSE are planners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Model A is really deep and beautiful if you take the time to understand it. The descriptions you've given are offensive and crude by comparison.

    The Id functions are something we use mostly for ourselves, as a tool. However, we don't let them get in the way of our Ego functions (as, say, engaging in violence on a regular basis would do with ), and they yield easily when others signal that they're not wanted.
    I realize my descriptions might be a tad bit offensive but my main objective is to get the main point across in the clearest way possible and to do that I need to forgo political correctness.

    I used to think of the Id as just being used for own goals as well but this has left to many unanswered holes in the behavior of the types and thus I now think the Id plays plays a much more central role in the behavior of they types. My understating of socionics is constantly evolving (which is why I haven't subscribed to a type yet, I don't want to type myself until I understand all the types 100% and rid my viewpoints of stereotypes), I will also admit that not all my past comments have been 100% correct, so feel free to disagree, but currently I think model A is filled with unanswered gaps and doesn't fully penetrate the essence of the types.
    Last edited by Muddy; 05-07-2016 at 11:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.
    Rage?

    I'll answer this question

    My bf will get cranky in the early mornings because he never gets enough sleep. The slightest disruption of the very few hours he can rune his sleep. This has to do with disruption of Si probably. I say this because I've never gotten cranky when my sleep gets interrupted. If interrupted, they'll jump out of bed and bitch about the noise "the damn dog!" etc. But it's just bitching with no harm behind it. Other bitching is "I'm always the one doing things around here!" If an LSE does a lot and gets no appreciation it's not going to be good. They may continue to provide and do but it's just emotionally wrong to continue asking so much of someone who doesn't want to leave the relationship yet expected to continue doing without appreciation. Genuine appreciation.

    Other rage comes from having asked you to do something and you not doing it that way or they will not explain to you how they want it done and will suddenly seize the moment and grab the thing out of your hand and do it the way they saw it RIGHT @Sol.
    In this case you have to be quiet, patient, and not mind them. Just joke and if they are not in a joking mood do it anyway until they flare up and build over by expressing all their discontent and say "I'm so glad I remained calm"

    They feel bad about having done stupid shit like this and gone on a bitchy rant and may even say "It's not you babe. I just didn't want it done THAT way." In which case don't think anything of it and move on. No point in holding on to anger.


    They will also get fairy angry when a driver breaks the rules or does something that could potentially hurt someone or is behavior that's perceived as rude "that effing B cut me off"



    When LSE run out of time and stress about getting everything ready in time like when my cousin tries to prepare all meals for dinner time at 6pm she will get enraged if people don't focus on work and aren't as driven and focused to get things done briskly lol


    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. Delta STs do not have "inner anger or rage" as a rule. This is much more characteristic of Se ego types, especially Beta STs who struggle with expressing their emotions in a healthy manner. It suggests you have confused them, as do these quotes:



    "ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf."
    Why would a type that values Ne and not Se display this behavior?



    LSEs do naturally take a leadership role, but I would hardly say that it's a compulsion or that power (again, an Se theme) is something they seek out for itself. LSEs do not care much at all about how they are perceived. I'm not sure that they "love interaction with others" either; I would say that they focus their energy on activities that are both productive and enjoyable, and often this means working together with other people. But they are good-natured in general, and tend to be very emotionally balanced. I also disagree that they are "corrosive", this is much more typical of Resolute logical types.

    The earlier part of the description is better but you have not correlated anything with the information elements, and you probably could go deeper into the motivations behind the behavior.



    This is just plain wrong. Hating "chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, transgressions of their norms, rules, agreements" - these are all Beta ST characteristics, this is all TiSe. LSEs do not have a concept of "transgression of their norms", or if they do they don't care about it. They are extremely flexible with their expectations of others and themselves, and definitely do not exhaustively prepare themselves, in fact they tend to act in the moment and be generally unaware of the need for preparation (Ni PoLR). I also hardly think that they are "anxious, irritable, or angry" - certainly not anxious because they are focused on enjoying the present moment (i.e. Si). If anything, it's the opposite: they tend to ignore problems (as do most Si valuers) and take an overly optimistic outlook that they can deal with things as they come. SLIs can be described as irritable because of a general lack of Fe, but LSEs have role Fe which means they generally try to present a positive attitude.

    You are completely wrong. Jesus
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-08-2016 at 12:43 AM.

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    Also LSE compartmentalize everything. Example. this is to better control and manage activities.

    Work ethic when you’re at work think about work, put everything aside because you don’t want to make a mistake that will cost you your job or get emotional like some people. You don’t want to be like THOSE people.


    Also don't you just find it interesting that LSE stay away from threads like this and let people who know or are involved in a relationship with LSE talk about this stuff?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-08-2016 at 12:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I realize my descriptions might be a tad bit offensive but my main objective is to get the main point across in the clearest way possible and to do that I need to forgo political correctness.

    I used to think of the Id as just being used for own goals as well but this has left to many unanswered holes in the behavior of the types and thus I now think the Id plays plays a much more central role in the behavior of they types. My understating of socionics is constantly evolving (which is why I haven't subscribed to a type yet, I don't want to type myself until I understand all the types 100% and rid my viewpoints of stereotypes), I will also admit that not all my past comments have been 100% correct, so feel free to disagree, but currently I think model A is filled with unanswered gaps and doesn't fully penetrate the essence of the types.
    You can't understand the types 100% before you type yourself. You understand the types by typing people. No wonder you don't get Model A.

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