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Thread: Failure to pick up hints- socionics significance?

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    Default Failure to pick up hints- socionics significance?

    A few days ago at work my manager had a difficult conversation with me to tell me that I would no longer be able to work at a particular branch in the library system that I work for. My job is part-time as a 'floater.' So I float around between library branches in a public library system, substituting for librarians when they are absent. It's like a substitute teacher for a school district, only with libraries. Luckily, it's a large library system so there are several other branches. But still, to be forbidden from working at a branch anymore feels like a kick in the ____________. It’s a blow to the self esteem because you feel like you are not ‘good enough.’

    I was totally taken by surprise by this conversation because I felt that I had no warning whatsoever that this would happen. I’ve substituted at this library for several years, have gotten to know it and the staff pretty well. Most would say that I work hard and do a good job, except I will admit that my customer service skills could use some work at times. I have good skills when the customers are pleasant and even if they aren’t so pleasant if they at least treat me with some respect. It’s when they are downright rude and obnoxious that I kind of ‘break down’ and get upset back. So that’s happened a few times. I have a hard time dealing constructively when anger is directed at me. This particular branch is in a rough neighborhood and a lot of the customers have their own personal baggage that they take out on the staff, which doesn’t help things. It still doesn’t make my behavior towards them right, I know that.

    So I’ve talked with a supervisor a few times about my interactions with patrons. She has suggested possible training for me on better customer service skills on how to handle difficult patrons, or just to let someone know when I’m stressed and need a break, or to refer the patron to someone else. (Sometimes this latter suggestion is not always possible as staff are spread too thin already).

    I suppose these suggestions were hints that things weren’t going so well. Understandable. Still I had no idea that I was approaching the point where I would be asked to stop working there from good. As much as I hate harshness and harsh remarks I have found that sometimes they are necessary for me. Why? Because I oftentimes I don't 'get' hints from others. Sometimes people need to be more explicit with me. Say something like “that behavior is unacceptable and goes against the employee code of conduct. I’m going to have to give you your first strike. After three strikes you’re out. Here’s a list of things that warrant a strike.” Maybe it’s somewhat harsh but at least it’s explicit and it prevents unplesant surprises later. Why aren’t people more explicit like this? Why do people just ‘brush you off’ like that.

    At least the manager could have given me a final warning, or worked some compromise to allow me to stay. Maybe something like working under more supervision, completing some required training, a ‘probationary period’ etc.


    There's numerous other instances in life where I don't pick up on hints either. In the past I'd ask people some question or if they would be interested in doing something and they would change the topic or suggest another idea. This may have been a hint that they really weren't interested in what I was saying or in my idea but didn't want to just flat-out say no to prevent hard feelings. Now I kind of grasp this sort of hint but for the longest time I didn't.



    Do yout think this sort of thing is common for LIIs to not pick up on these sorts of hints? Or is it Asperger related? Or something else?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    That sucks re: work situation.

    I've been bad at picking up on hints, or simply implicit as opposed to explicit (colloquial meaning) dynamics. For me it's just level of social skills and a tendency to prioritise being analytical as opposed to intuitive about emotions. It improves over time but needs conscious work. I find that the better I get at dealing with emotions in myself the better I get at dealing with others, partly because constructive criticism of my interactions (from myself or others) is not a Blow To My Self Esteem anymore.

    I still think that they could have been more explicit about it. Maybe the supervisor thought you'd blow up at them for some reason?

    ETA: Note that regardless of whose interpretation of my type you favour, on average I'm Fe-ego. Stereotypically speaking I'm an anomaly. I think socionics only accounts in part at the most for social skills/emotional skills. At least, while say Fi-PoLR may give you a -2 on say emotional management, Fi-ego is probably not a +2 to emotional management. Just because you pick up on stuff does not mean you know what to do with it.
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    I tend to simply ignore these things and stick to what has explicitly been said and done, especially at work. Those are the only things that are valid, as far as I'm concerned. Why aren’t people more explicit? Well, maybe it's because they tend to be largely indifferent about stuff that doesn't revolve around them, or they just lack moral integrity. Some are just conflict avoidant and diplomatic, which again in most cases points back to self-preservation at the expense of fairness and integrity.

    If you want to stay in your branch, tell your manager. Tell him or her what you told us. Confront them about their decision and ask to stay. Don't kiss ass and don't be afraid.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    I want to read this thread

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    People don't say what they mean for a few reasons. Three I can think of are:
    1)It can create more work for them.
    2)Most people don't care how rational a criticism is, they just hear "you're against me."
    3)They didn't put enough effort into it in the past and you suffer for their incompetence.

    So you can take it:
    1)As a sign of your limitations and be grateful you are removed from an environment that disagrees with you,
    2)In stride and try to be smarter about it in the future and more responsive to implicit cues now that you know the consequences.

    This has been my strategy but now I tend to try to create an open space for criticism as long as the person working with me is telling me something with honesty. And i say if you don't want to be explicit, fuck you(implicitly haha). And i live with the problems that causes.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I want to read this thread
    Oh, should I borrow you my glasses?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Oh, should I borrow you my glasses?
    Heheheheheh nice hint

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    So you can take it:
    1)As a sign of your limitations and be grateful you are removed from an environment that disagrees with you
    She doesn't know the reason or motive behind it. She's just speculating, rationalizing.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    She doesn't know the reason or motive behind it. She's just speculating, rationalizing.
    Sounds like she's probably right, although you are correct to tell her to ask for explanation. They may not give it to her unfortunately.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Heheheheheh nice hint
    Hint me baby one more time.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Sounds like she's probably right
    We don't know that. It might not even have anything to do with her skills. There could be a new employee they can't sit anyplace else, or a coworker who kissed ass to replace her, or what not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    They may not give it to her unfortunately.
    Out of common courtesy, they should. But it's their decision. Consequently, how she reacts to that is her decision.


    (P.S. I am neither qualified nor knowledgeable enough to know where to put Aspergers in all of this.)
    Last edited by Park; 04-18-2016 at 11:46 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    I have the same problem. I agree that they should have been more explicit, but people are like this and it's better to learn to pick up on it rather than trying to change the way others behave. You're not going to get them all. While being consciously aware of this behaviour is a good start, I find that getting enough sleep, and doing other things that keep me more alert like sticking to a diet low in refined sugar, helps tremendously. It just gives you more processing power in the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Oh, should I borrow you my glasses?
    I see what you did there.

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    This is most likely Aspergers related, it's one of the main characteristics.

    People aren't more explicit in such cases because they take their expectations for granted and don't wan't to bother with what they see as exhausting conflict and guidance. It's easier for them to just let you go. I'm sorry this is happening to you. Is there any possibility for you to not be working with customers, but still as a librarian? When you get a new superviser and if he/she looks friendly, you could just directly ask them to give you more precise instructions on company's behaviour policy and to inform you immediately when something you're doing isn't appreciated. As a rule of thumb, you should be polite and patient with customers no matter how much of dicks they are - unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    Do yout think this sort of thing is common for LIIs to not pick up on these sorts of hints? Or is it Asperger related? Or something else?
    Sorry to hear about what happened. Do you have an official diagnosis of Aspergers? If so then maybe you have some protection under a disabilities act and you can use that to get another chance. I am not sure that they can do this if you have a disability but they may put you in a position where you do not have to deal directly with customers alone. I guess their compromise would be to not to let you back at that branch even if they did know but if they don't and it happens at another branch then you might lose your job completely. I don't know to what extent you went off on the customers you had problems with so I am not sure what to say but I feel for you. :/

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    I think your boss could have handled that a lot better, and could have made clear her expectations and the consequences of not meeting them, but most bosses are not trained very well, and fewer of them are naturally good at being bosses.

    I doubt if being fired unexpectedly has anything to do with having Aspergers. The two times I was fired, it came as a complete surprise to me, and the Asperger's tests I've taken indicate that, while I'm not as intuitive as an IEI or an ILI, I'm not very near the scores which indicate Aspergers.

    My first job was in a library. I applied because I loved reading books. But I discovered that working in a library has very little to do with reading books, and a lot to do with getting along with difficult people. I lasted about three months before I quit. I think my attitude was, "I could help these people (the general public), but I don't want to." I feel sorry for most librarians, because they don't get enough respect for the good work they do.

    One of my sisters is LII, and she worked in the public eye in a specialty fish market. But I suspect she kept that job because the manager really really liked her and she could work whenever she wanted. A friend of mine created a job for her at the college where he works. She now handles the technical parts of the phone and communications systems for the college, never talks to the public, is reasonably happy at work (she is, after all, LII) and is considered to be invaluable because she is really good at her job.

    Here is a picture of a card that sits on the desk of an LII I work with:
    LII Stronger than you think.jpg

    Just something to keep in mind.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-18-2016 at 11:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think your boss could have handled that a lot better, and could have made clear her expectations and the consequences of not meeting them, but most bosses are not trained very well, and fewer of them are naturally good at being bosses.

    I doubt if being fired unexpectedly has anything to do with having Aspergers. The two times I was fired, it came as a complete surprise to me, and the Asperger's tests I've taken indicate that, while I'm not as intuitive as an IEI or an ILI, I'm not very near the scores which indicate Aspergers.

    My first job was in a library. I applied because I loved reading books. But I discovered that working in a library has very little to do with reading books, and a lot to do with getting along with difficult people. I lasted about three months before I quit. I think my attitude was, "I could help these people (the general public), but I don't want to." I feel sorry for most librarians, because they don't get enough respect for the good work they do.

    One of my sisters is LII, and she worked in the public eye in a specialty fish market. But I suspect she kept that job because the manager really really liked her. A friend of mine created a job for her at the college where he works. She now handles the technical parts of the phone and communications systems for the college, never talks to the public, is reasonably happy at work (she is, after all, LII) and is considered to be invaluable because she is really good at her job.
    Interesting. My ex who was ILI ended up working as a technical librarian after all his studies were completed (not really completed since he was still studying random stuff). He got a job as some level of librarian and was promoted quickly but it was soon discovered he was not a people person. He suspected that he had Aspergers but I refused to let him think that. :/ He just had no people skills but maybe he did. It would be weird to find out that was his problem all along and probably would have stopped my family from thinking he was just a dick for not being warm (Fe polr too...)

    Like I said he thought something was wrong with him and now I wish I had been more supportive of him getting tested. Things might have been different but nothing to do about it now.

    Edit: They gave him a promotion and he worked in the back of the libraries and was given control of the tri-counties technical problems with computers and things of that nature. Got a raise too. It was a better fit for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I doubt if being fired unexpectedly has anything to do with having Aspergers. T
    No, but having difficulties reading social clues and hints does. It doesn't help her to tell her it's got nothing to do with it, when working with customers is surely tricky for someone with Aspergers. That doesn't mean it's her fault obviously.

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    Sometimes its not that you didnt pick up hints, but rather the people around you dont know how to or are too coward to give straightforward constructive criticism bc they themselves are conflict-avoidant and dont have the social skills and leadership qualities to pull it off in a positive way.Yet others expect ppl to read their minds and if you didnt, they still feel like they dropped you a million hints, even though they only did it in their minds. Dont fret, learn what you can from the situation, and just move on....you dont want to be working with people of such weak character anyways...
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    Did you ever take the customer service training that your supervisor suggested?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I want to read this thread
    Well, then do so. No one is stopping you.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    No, but having difficulties reading social clues and hints does. It doesn't help her to tell her it's got nothing to do with it, when working with customers is surely tricky for someone with Aspergers. That doesn't mean it's her fault obviously.
    I agree. I reread op and even though chips did not take these things as "hints", I find them very explicit in a diplomatic way. I am pretty sure the supervisor knows she is having real difficulty and not just someone with uncontrolled anger issues or something similar.

    So I’ve talked with a supervisor a few times about my interactions with patrons. She has suggested possible training for me on better customer service skills on how to handle difficult patrons, or just to let someone know when I’m stressed and need a break, or to refer the patron to someone else. (Sometimes this latter suggestion is not always possible as staff are spread too thin already).
    These aren't just hints to me. It is someone trying to gently help me out before it's too late. We can't be the only ones here who sees it as explicit?

    I would take each time a supervisor talked to me as a "strike" and chips didn't. I can't believe that is just an LII thing. I think if she has Aspergers she would benefit from letting them know, if she hasn't already.

    She knows now and can take steps to improve her customer service skills but is that easy for someone with Aspergers? I don't know. The person I mentioned in another post in this thread read everything he could on EQ and social interactions to improve himself in social interactions. It helped a lot but he still had problems and not working directly with the public was his only solution. I don't know if chips is that far out of touch since she seems to do well here in her interactions. Her responses to threads have always appeared appropriate to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    These aren't just hints to me. It is someone trying to gently help me out before it's too late. We can't be the only ones here who sees it as explicit?
    I didn't read them as just hints either, which is why I asked if she followed through with the training her supervisor suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I didn't read them as just hints either, which is why I asked if she followed through with the training her supervisor suggested.
    I noticed after I posted.

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    I don't think it's a leap to conclude that social skills can be related to type. I generally agree with William's statements above. I also can relate to you with your gradual realizations of social cues after the fact.

    About the Asperger's comment: I would say that unless any mental disorder whatsoever disturbs your ability to function in day-to-day life, I don't think it is constructive to blame an uncomfortable communication situation on one, because then you would be attributing your self-perceived failure to a natural and static inability, instead of learning what could be done to compensate. If you have been diagnosed and/or one does affect your ability to function, please disregard the previous text and forgive my insensitivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    I don't think it's a leap to conclude that social skills can be related to type. I generally agree with William's statements above. I also can relate to you with your gradual realizations of social cues after the fact.
    I am a social last sx 4 and unlikely to let any customer talk down to me even though I know better and can read people pretty well. I have quit jobs just because I know my limits. I also know how to deal with upset customers but it took an emotional toll on me so I got out of customer service as fast as I got into it. I used to hang up on bitching customers since my employer suggested it and did it himself. These were customers that no amount of understanding or appeasing could calm. I used to come home literally shaking inside after a few of those. It also took a toll on my health since I got more headaches and stress related symptoms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I agree. I reread op and even though chips did not take these things as "hints", I find them very explicit in a diplomatic way. I am pretty sure the supervisor knows she is having real difficulty and not just someone with uncontrolled anger issues or something similar.

    These aren't just hints to me. It is someone trying to gently help me out before it's too late. We can't be the only ones here who sees it as explicit?
    That's what I thought as well - it seemed rather explicit to me. I also think that given that you are a floater and not being able to work at one branch won't have much of an impact on your employment (if I understand correctly), your supervisor might also have you in mind with that decision. If you have such issues with many patrons at this particular location, she might find that it would also benefit you to be freed of this responsibility and work at less stressful locations.

    I would be curious about how she worded the decision that you can no longer work there.
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    a lot of the time when people want to get rid of someone they'll talk to everybody except that person. they'll make their mind up, then not listen to anything you have to say.

    it is what it is. if there's been an unfair dismissal you should be able to sue and get some money back. here at least even if you're shunted into a worse postition you can call them out on it.

    that said if it's a difficult environment it's probably best to shift to the next gig anyway. just try and get any financial compensation you can out of such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I agree. I reread op and even though chips did not take these things as "hints", I find them very explicit in a diplomatic way. I am pretty sure the supervisor knows she is having real difficulty and not just someone with uncontrolled anger issues or something similar.



    These aren't just hints to me. It is someone trying to gently help me out before it's too late. We can't be the only ones here who sees it as explicit?

    I would take each time a supervisor talked to me as a "strike" and chips didn't. I can't believe that is just an LII thing. I think if she has Aspergers she would benefit from letting them know, if she hasn't already.

    She knows now and can take steps to improve her customer service skills but is that easy for someone with Aspergers? I don't know. The person I mentioned in another post in this thread read everything he could on EQ and social interactions to improve himself in social interactions. It helped a lot but he still had problems and not working directly with the public was his only solution. I don't know if chips is that far out of touch since she seems to do well here in her interactions. Her responses to threads have always appeared appropriate to me.

    +1000. I saw them as explicit as well, I was using hints as her own word. I would definitely see them as a major warning, but I can see how she wouldn't. That's not an LII things, I have like 5 LII friends and they can read "hints" like that just as good as me. Ironically, the only person in my social circle who has Aspergers is also LII and yes, he doesn't get social cues.

    I agree with everything else you said - I think it would be important to actually take the classes on her won or, if problems are too severe, find a different non-customer service job.

    About the bosses:
    They offered her a training, that's being much much more understanding than a bunch of asshole bosses out there. Many just yell and threaten to fire you whenever you fuck up. The diplomatic approach they took would be favoured by many, so if you're a person who needs these things spelled-out I think there's no other way but to inform the supervisor about your problem.

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    Well in my experience I sometimes can't pick up on social cues. Sometimes I can tell people aren't comfortable (socially) but don't know why. I feel like this tendency could be a LII or at least poor Fe/Fi related thing? Seems like something IEEs and SEEs I know don't do. IEE more so than SEE.

    It would also be related to Aspergers too. Gulenko has said that LIIs who don't improve their Fi skills may seem somewhat autistic, so Aspergers and LIIness may reinforce this.

    My approach has been to be burned by it, and try to not make the mistake again. Because our Fi is 2D, our understanding of it is often limited to norms and rules. (In theory) the way we're supposed to deal with this is that when things go wrong, we make a new rule and try to stick to it. It won't be perfect, and we'll still be blindsided by something else hint-related, but we'll at least be better.

    If I were you now, LII a LII, I would either do two things.

    Wait, did I just do that thing where I gave people advice when they didn't want it? Oops, better put a spoiler around that.
    I won't speak to whether the hints were subtle or not, mainly because the way you've written them they seem clear enough, but hindsight is 20-20 even if you're Maritsa and you don't have Park's glasses.

    OPTION A
    Go back to the manager and (awkwardly, because we're LIIs so it will be awkward) tell her:
    • That you know the conversation was difficult for you both,
    • You still really enjoy your work,
    • You're sorry you didn't work out at that specific library but that you'll be trying to improve, and
    • She should feel comfortable to give you feedback.

    First point is to let the manager feel safe - you're not gonna like shout at her or accuse her of being unfair. If she feels unsafe then she may say something upsetting to you which she doesn't mean.
    Second and third point is because I think a manager prefers an earnest employee cos those are harder to find. Hopefully this will buy a few extra lives in case you slip up again in the future.
    Fourth point is to hopefully encourage the manager to be really explicit with feedback. On their end, she may have previously felt uncomfortable pulling you up on things you didn't realise.

    OPTION B
    I would be upset and my self-esteem disturbed. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to the manager to say all that was said in Option A. I would probably write an email or something just because I think it's something that ought to be done. However, I would probably need warmth and friendliness and general closeness with someone to help me feel less uncertain of myself. That could be here on 16types, or it could be other people you know?, but hopefully they would help to build you back up.

    And then you'd probably best think of some 2D Fi rule to make sure that this doesn't happen again, like I discussed above.
    Warm Regards,



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    I would not take this personally. Working with difficult customers who have issues and who can be rude is very tricky and it helps to have a particular talent at that. If you don't have that natural talent at calming and soothing angry, rude people, then you need specific and thorough training. And then, not only that training class, but someone afterward who would "hold your hand" and walk you through initial efforts. Is all this training and personal assistance worthwhile for just a "substitute"? Not really. Its easy enough to instead call upon the handful of known subs who are naturally good at that, there at that particular specialized-need location. And I am not putting that substitute role down - I substitute teach. Its a similar job that takes a lot of skill to do well but you don't get much recognition or attention. You are a necessary cog in the machine, and they really hope your part won't need a lot of oiling and cleaning...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    I find that the better I get at dealing with emotions in myself the better I get at dealing with others...
    I agree with this 100%. The better you are at understanding yourself the better you will be at understanding other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I tend to simply ignore these things and stick to what has explicitly been said and done, especially at work. Those are the only things that are valid, as far as I'm concerned. Why aren’t people more explicit? Well, maybe it's because they tend to be largely indifferent about stuff that doesn't revolve around them, or they just lack moral integrity. Some are just conflict avoidant and diplomatic, which again in most cases points back to self-preservation at the expense of fairness and integrity.

    If you want to stay in your branch, tell your manager. Tell him or her what you told us. Confront them about their decision and ask to stay. Don't kiss ass and don't be afraid.
    I did tell my manager that I wanted to stay and that I would try really hard to change my behavior for the better. It didn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I have the same problem. I agree that they should have been more explicit, but people are like this and it's better to learn to pick up on it rather than trying to change the way others behave. You're not going to get them all. While being consciously aware of this behaviour is a good start, I find that getting enough sleep, and doing other things that keep me more alert like sticking to a diet low in refined sugar, helps tremendously. It just gives you more processing power in the moment.
    So how do I LEARN to pick up these hints if my brain isn't naturally wired that way? Let me ask some of you neurotypical people, what are the common hints managers might tell people that their work isn't quite up to par? Or conversely, when you are not happy with someone's work performance and don't feel a direct approach is the best at the time, what kind of hints do you give people?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I did tell my manager that I wanted to stay and that I would try really hard to change my behavior for the better. It didn't work.
    You don't say you're going to "try," you say you're going to do it.

    Sorry it didn't work.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I did tell my manager that I wanted to stay and that I would try really hard to change my behavior for the better. It didn't work.

    So how do I LEARN to pick up these hints if my brain isn't naturally wired that way? Let me ask some of you neurotypical people, what are the common hints managers might tell people that their work isn't quite up to par? Or conversely, when you are not happy with someone's work performance and don't feel a direct approach is the best at the time, what kind of hints do you give people?
    If a manager suggests you take any kind of training or take a break when you are feeling overwhelmed do not take it as a suggestion. Take it as a direct order put rather nicely. It's not really a hint at all. It is pretty direct and I would appreciate being told the way you were rather than a threat. You said she talked to you about this a couple of times, at least?

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I find that getting enough sleep, and doing other things that keep me more alert like sticking to a diet low in refined sugar, helps tremendously. It just gives you more processing power in the moment.
    Yes, I am not at my best when I've been sleep deprived or had a poor diet. Caffeine is a temporary fix, with emphasis on the temporary. Afterwards, I crash, and become an inferior version of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Sorry to hear about what happened. Do you have an official diagnosis of Aspergers? If so then maybe you have some protection under a disabilities act and you can use that to get another chance. I am not sure that they can do this if you have a disability but they may put you in a position where you do not have to deal directly with customers alone. I guess their compromise would be to not to let you back at that branch even if they did know but if they don't and it happens at another branch then you might lose your job completely. I don't know to what extent you went off on the customers you had problems with so I am not sure what to say but I feel for you. :/
    My workplace offers employee assistance counseling where you can get up to 4 sessions for free. All employees are eligible, even part-timers like me that aren't eligible for some of the other benefits. I'm going to take advantage of it. I'm going to bring up potential Aspergers to the counselor and ask if testing would be worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think your boss could have handled that a lot better, and could have made clear her expectations and the consequences of not meeting them, but most bosses are not trained very well, and fewer of them are naturally good at being bosses.

    I doubt if being fired unexpectedly has anything to do with having Aspergers. The two times I was fired, it came as a complete surprise to me, and the Asperger's tests I've taken indicate that, while I'm not as intuitive as an IEI or an ILI, I'm not very near the scores which indicate Aspergers.

    My first job was in a library. I applied because I loved reading books. But I discovered that working in a library has very little to do with reading books, and a lot to do with getting along with difficult people. I lasted about three months before I quit. I think my attitude was, "I could help these people (the general public), but I don't want to." I feel sorry for most librarians, because they don't get enough respect for the good work they do.

    One of my sisters is LII, and she worked in the public eye in a specialty fish market. But I suspect she kept that job because the manager really really liked her and she could work whenever she wanted. A friend of mine created a job for her at the college where he works. She now handles the technical parts of the phone and communications systems for the college, never talks to the public, is reasonably happy at work (she is, after all, LII) and is considered to be invaluable because she is really good at her job.

    Here is a picture of a card that sits on the desk of an LII I work with:
    LII Stronger than you think.jpg

    Just something to keep in mind.
    I'm finding that out too about the library. I love to work with information and organizing it and of course I love reading, but this job has gotten to be too focused on customer service. It's probably time for a change but what kind of change, I don't know. I've seen other librarian jobs posted that would be a in a quieter calmer setting without much difficult customers but they require extensive technical expertise that I don't possess.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You don't say you're going to "try," you say you're going to do it.

    Sorry it didn't work.
    Yeah, maybe "try" doesn't sound confident or definitive enough. It is more honest and accurate though. How do I know for absolutely sure that I'm going to change my behavior successfully? I don't.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Interesting. My ex who was ILI ended up working as a technical librarian after all his studies were completed (not really completed since he was still studying random stuff). He got a job as some level of librarian and was promoted quickly but it was soon discovered he was not a people person. He suspected that he had Aspergers but I refused to let him think that. :/ He just had no people skills but maybe he did. It would be weird to find out that was his problem all along and probably would have stopped my family from thinking he was just a dick for not being warm (Fe polr too...)

    Like I said he thought something was wrong with him and now I wish I had been more supportive of him getting tested. Things might have been different but nothing to do about it now.

    Edit: They gave him a promotion and he worked in the back of the libraries and was given control of the tri-counties technical problems with computers and things of that nature. Got a raise too. It was a better fit for him.
    I'm hoping I can find a job in libraries that's more suited to my personality and strengths. Library jobs are so hard to come by though. Lots of people want to work libraries believe it or not. The setting is romanticized by many even if there are many other higher paying jobs out there. It's funny because on an interest inventory I scored highest on the areas of 'Investigative' and 'Social.' The Investigative part seems obvious, I love to work with ideas and explore them in depth. That is one of my strengths. The Social part I scored high on because I am *interested* in the welfare of humanity and doing things that I know would positively impact peoples' lives. Yet, I easily get drainied when I have to interact with too many people, particularly those with difficult personalities. I think what would be most ideal for me is to work alone, yet I'm working on something that ends up clearly benefitting other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I have been fired from jobs and it's came as a surprise to me. It took me a while to learn that when most bosses say, I want you to be honest, that they may not really want you to be honest. Also I have had to deal with difficult colleagues, it took me a while to realize that a difficult colleague is dealt with in a different way to a difficult person you could encounter outside of work. For instance, in the second, I might say let's talk about it, or I may be offended, at work there is a game to be played, or just different rules, and they apply to dealing with customers too. I'm still learning things all the time too, we don't stop learning I hope.

    I don't think it has to be Aspergers, it's just something that's happened and you've learned to position yourself differently with difficult customers. As much as a customer may be being difficult, how long can it last for? You are not there all day and the library must close eventually, so you are getting paid to listen to someone complain to you! How many people go home and don't get anything to listen to siblings or someone else have a rant

    Also, it could be other things, poor management, maybe someone wanted to have a friend work there, millions of different possibilities, so fwiw I would say don't blame yourself too much for it, and don't worry too much about picking up signs imo, we can all work on these things going forward, think of setbacks as just something that's happened, or an opportunity to improve or re-evaluate something, and move forward. I would say don't just think it's because it's all your fault, you are bad and such things (if you do) because you'll just hurt yourself and not make any progress (at least this is what i've found and practice, so it might work for you too.)

    It's happened, and no ones life goes perfect from what I can see, I hope you feel better soon and my heart went out to you.

    Edit: I've also had jobs i've been really great at, so sometimes there might not be any reason for it.

    I remember hearing before that we are far more likely to remember the bad things in life than the good things that have happened to us, I did a quick google search and found a lot of articles, but like this one http://science.howstuffworks.com/lif...-than-good.htm

    Anyway, I just wanted to show that don't just think you suck and think about all the sucky things that happened, a lot of good things have happened too in regards to picking up on things and good things you have done for distressed customers.
    Thanks. I just feel like it's not just this job, but almost every job I've ever had has gone like this. I feel like my performance is mediocre, that I'm an underachiever in spite of having an IQ well above average. Prior to being a librarian, I was a teacher. Students complained that I didn't connect with them enough personally, that I didn't explain things clearly enough, that I wasn't flexible enough about things like deadlines. In college and high school, I held various fast food jobs. Again, issues with difficult customers and trying to manage mini-crisis situations when we had a major lunch rush. It was just 'common sense', no clear formulas to go off on. Again the manager gave me a strong hint by trying to reduce my hours and wouldn't train me on the cash register even though at the time that's what I wanted to do. Instead, I mostly washed dishes and cooked meat patties.


    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Did you ever take the customer service training that your supervisor suggested?
    Not yet, but only because the training is only offered on a monthly basis. I have signed up for it and will be taking it in 2 weeks from today.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Willyum Take4 View Post
    @chips and underwear Yes, I think it's somewhat type-related. I think SFs are generally best at picking up social queues in the moment, and NFs are good at knowing general strategies about dealing with people. STs can learn social skills and people-skills with their ability to perceive things in the moment. NTs can learn strategies of dealing with their feelings and emotions and take more work to enjoy the perception of the moment, but it can be done, if you're intent on working on it.

    However, I wouldn't be too concerned. Work situations can be incredibly political. Someone could have complained and the management/hierarchy felt they had to act.

    I like when exact rules are spelled out too. All of humanity likes that. We all feel confused when expected behavior, especially in a work setting, is unclear.

    I also miss social queues sometimes as well. I think all types do some.

    Outside of managing your day routine better, or taking a break if upset, have you tried to do anything before to actually increase your social skills? Have you ever read any people-skills books or taken any courses related to customer service? Have you ever worked in sales before to force yourself to learn better social skills? Some of these suggestions will take more time, so it depends how serious you are.

    But it sounds like the workplace might just have given you the shaft. Are customers really yelling at you employees? That's a bit fucked up as well if management doesn't have your back.

    How do other employees in this workplace deal with irate customers?

    Just some questions to ponder. Sorry to hear about the tough conversation.
    True, sometimes management feels like they have to act. Also there has been high employee turnover including the managers. The managers shift from one library to another, sometimes against their will. It seems like the managers don't always communicate clearly with each other. What one manager sees as too lenient the other sees as too strict.

    I'm not sure everyone likes everything explicit and clearly spelled out. Many would find that too confining. I do too, when they are not things related to dealing with customers.

    I have read people skills books and have taken workshops on dealing with difficult customers but that was a few years ago. Plus, I tend to master theory far more easily than the actual practice!

    The managers themselves yell at the customers and they aren't always so nice with them.

    Yes, the customers do yell at us employees. Sometimes it's not yelling but just saying mean things to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I agree. I reread op and even though chips did not take these things as "hints", I find them very explicit in a diplomatic way. I am pretty sure the supervisor knows she is having real difficulty and not just someone with uncontrolled anger issues or something similar.

    These aren't just hints to me. It is someone trying to gently help me out before it's too late. We can't be the only ones here who sees it as explicit?

    I would take each time a supervisor talked to me as a "strike" and chips didn't. I can't believe that is just an LII thing. I think if she has Aspergers she would benefit from letting them know, if she hasn't already.

    She knows now and can take steps to improve her customer service skills but is that easy for someone with Aspergers? I don't know. The person I mentioned in another post in this thread read everything he could on EQ and social interactions to improve himself in social interactions. It helped a lot but he still had problems and not working directly with the public was his only solution. I don't know if chips is that far out of touch since she seems to do well here in her interactions. Her responses to threads have always appeared appropriate to me.
    They may be obvious to you but they weren't so obvious to me. Different peoples' minds work differently. I think one reason why I do okay in my interactions here is that it is far easier to avoid 'difficult' people here. I can just ignore them, not respond to them, and temporarily leave the forum if things get too uncomfortable. You can't do that in the workplace without losing your job.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am a social last sx 4 and unlikely to let any customer talk down to me even though I know better and can read people pretty well. I have quit jobs just because I know my limits. I also know how to deal with upset customers but it took an emotional toll on me so I got out of customer service as fast as I got into it. I used to hang up on bitching customers since my employer suggested it and did it himself. These were customers that no amount of understanding or appeasing could calm. I used to come home literally shaking inside after a few of those. It also took a toll on my health since I got more headaches and stress related symptoms.
    I can't let people talk down to me either. Anytime someone talks down to me, my instinct is to get defensive and tell them I won't put up with it. But doing that comes across as being rude. I just don't have thick skin when it comes to that type of thing. I also won't let others abuse my dignity. I have had to interact with people that go well beyond my personal limits of comfort. My limits have stretched a bit from work experience. That is I can tolerate more 'crap' than when I started, but still not enough that seems to be needed for my line of work. I have also hung up on bitching customers and walked away from them because I knew they would be impossible to appease. Somehow the manager was able to work with them. If I only I had that skill!
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    That's what I thought as well - it seemed rather explicit to me. I also think that given that you are a floater and not being able to work at one branch won't have much of an impact on your employment (if I understand correctly), your supervisor might also have you in mind with that decision. If you have such issues with many patrons at this particular location, she might find that it would also benefit you to be freed of this responsibility and work at less stressful locations.

    I would be curious about how she worded the decision that you can no longer work there.
    She started by saying "I'm afraid we have a difficult conversation ahead." Then she got right to the point and said that based on recent instances and she specified a couple said that I would no longer be able to work at that library.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    a lot of the time when people want to get rid of someone they'll talk to everybody except that person. they'll make their mind up, then not listen to anything you have to say.

    it is what it is. if there's been an unfair dismissal you should be able to sue and get some money back. here at least even if you're shunted into a worse postition you can call them out on it.

    that said if it's a difficult environment it's probably best to shift to the next gig anyway. just try and get any financial compensation you can out of such.
    Well technically they do have the right to not allow someone to work at a location they don't see them a good fit for. I'm not arguing with that. What I'm arguing with is that I don't feel like I was given a fair warning on it. I didn't have the chance to truly change my behavior and work out a plan on how to change it.

    I'm not sure I can sue them or if it would do me much good at this point. I would like to have my privilege to work there reinstated or at least start over on a clean slate with a new boss and explain that I'm the type of person who needs hints explicitly stated and fairly frequent performance reviews to prevent any unplesant surprises like this in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    +1000. I saw them as explicit as well, I was using hints as her own word. I would definitely see them as a major warning, but I can see how she wouldn't. That's not an LII things, I have like 5 LII friends and they can read "hints" like that just as good as me. Ironically, the only person in my social circle who has Aspergers is also LII and yes, he doesn't get social cues.

    I agree with everything else you said - I think it would be important to actually take the classes on her won or, if problems are too severe, find a different non-customer service job.

    About the bosses:
    They offered her a training, that's being much much more understanding than a bunch of asshole bosses out there. Many just yell and threaten to fire you whenever you fuck up. The diplomatic approach they took would be favoured by many, so if you're a person who needs these things spelled-out I think there's no other way but to inform the supervisor about your problem.
    I am afraid that telling my supervisor about my problem could work against me. You never know what they are really thinking. Also my supervisor could just think I'm using Aspergers as an excuse, which is why I am seriously considering getting tested for it. So that if I get an official diagnosis, I will be taken seriously. Of course that could be risky too.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I can't let people talk down to me either. Anytime someone talks down to me, my instinct is to get defensive and tell them I won't put up with it. But doing that comes across as being rude. I just don't have thick skin when it comes to that type of thing. I also won't let others abuse my dignity. I have had to interact with people that go well beyond my personal limits of comfort. My limits have stretched a bit from work experience. That is I can tolerate more 'crap' than when I started, but still not enough that seems to be needed for my line of work. I have also hung up on bitching customers and walked away from them because I knew they would be impossible to appease. Somehow the manager was able to work with them. If I only I had that skill!
    In my experience, ESE and EIE are the best at handling irate customers. I just don't know how they do it. I have watched them interact with a customer I was ready to kill and that customer walked away with a smile on their face. Although there were a handful of customers they could not even deal with and they actually ended up asking them to leave or they would calls the cops.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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