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Thread: Contrary nature of the types

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    Muddy's Avatar
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    Default Contrary nature of the types

    So I read somewhere that there is this contradictory nature in the types, in which despite of striving towards the ego functions it is the Id functions we ultimately act through. It gave an example by stating that it is ILE who tends to get involved with hands on, managerial activities, in order to implement their ideas and LIE is in fact the one who tends to work on developing abstract theories, in order to derive useful information from them. This actually seems to hold some weight based on personal experience and I'm beginning to wonder how this might apply across the types.

    This seems to the most obvious in ESxjs. In reality I find LSEs and ESEs to be the most forceful, pushy types rather then Se base types. LSE uses force to push others towards productive activities and ESE exerts pressure on others to get them to conform to the group mood. Meanwhile SLE uses productive activities to achieve a sense of power and SEE feels power through influencing the moods of others.

    Similarly I think it might be LIIs being the ones creating forecast and ILIs creating logical constructs, ESIs being the ones occupied with decorating their homes and SEIs managing their relations with others, and so forth.


    I'm interested on what others might have to add to this and if they have seen any examples these sort of type contradictions play out in real life.
    Last edited by Muddy; 04-18-2016 at 03:51 AM.

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    The Id is supposed to be the base of the personality upon which the rest of the TIM is built. Usage for repeat, known, and familiar things is done automatically through the Id. The Ego is where we go to solve new information given to us by society so that it can eventually go into the Id.

    When "typing" people, sporadic behavior will be in the Vital track, as will autonomous behavior.

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    That is just the realization that the cognitive functions are defined in such a vague way that there always seems to be justification for the same type being described differently depending on one's interpretation of the functions and the model being used. When this happens, one often ends up with various different descriptions of the same type that contradict one another, making it unlikely that these descriptions describe the same type of person. This is more "the contrary interpretations of types" than of "the contrary nature of types".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post
    That is just the realization that the cognitive functions are defined in such a vague way that there always seems to be justification for the same type being described differently depending on one's interpretation of the functions and the model being used. When this happens, one often ends up with various different descriptions of the same type that contradict one another, making it unlikely that these descriptions describe the same type of person. This is more "the contrary interpretations of types" than of "the contrary nature of types".
    I am not well versed in Socionics, however, that said I have noticed a clear pattern that the dichotomies are largely based on a kind of complex matrix.. so while there is some overlap, the overarching theme of the dichotomies are in fact relating and corresponding, complimenting or contrasting in their descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willyum Take4 View Post
    Some great examples already, and it's an interesting idea. My first impressions are that this might be done out a of sense of completeness - not sure if that's the right word - or fulfillment. But I notice it's human nature to want a challenge of some kind and to gravitate towards things which interest us. I've notice in human nature, ethical types try to be more 'logical' as they get older and logical types try to be more 'ethical'.

    When people are healthy psychologically, they can joke more and use their Demonstrative function creatively. When people are attacked, they defend their Ego functions - but it could be seen that healthy, self-actualized people use their 8th function a great deal in order to actualize their vision of the world. This would be my best guess of a Socionics explanation why this may occur.
    Hmm, I don't know exactly how this works but my ego would look something like this:



    and my demonstrative:




    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    The functions we act most are ego functions, not id wich are not valued and has less in our interest.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Compassion can drive me into depression. That is my fault. I have to and I have learned to detach and be more objective. It's absolutely necessary for EII

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    People are born with their id and they develop an ego over time, the ego develops in the presence of the dual-seeking function. As the ego develops the id becomes subordinate to the ego's agenda, however in the absence of the dual-seeking function, the id's agenda becomes subconsciously prioritized again. This is why people sometimes look like their contrary partners.

    eg.
    ESE is born with FiSe id, and they gradually develop FeSi ego in the presence of Ti dual-seeking. Without Ti, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an ESI, engaging with physical objects (Se) to maintain their personal attitude (Fi). At this point they are very suggestible to Te (objective logic), their movements can easily change.

    eg2.
    SLI is born with SeTi id, and they gradually develop SiTe ego in the presence of Ne dualseeking. Without Ne, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an SLE, creating logical relationships between things (Ti) to inflate their willpower (Se). At this point they are very suggestible to Ni (internal time), their plans can easily change.

    eg3.
    IEE is born with NiFe id, and they gradually develop NeFi ego in the presence of Si dualseeking. Without Si, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an IEI, emotionally expressing themselves (Fe) to preserve their internal integrity (Ni). At this point they are very suggestible to Se (emerging physical data). Their physical form can easily change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    So I read somewhere that there is this contradictory nature in the types, in which despite of striving towards the ego functions it is the Id functions we ultimately act through. It gave an example by stating that it is ILE who tends to get involved with hands on, managerial activities, in order to implement their ideas and LIE is in fact the one who tends to work on developing abstract theories, in order to derive useful information from them. This actually seems to hold some weight based on personal experience and I'm beginning to wonder how this might apply across the types.

    This seems to the most obvious in ESxjs. In reality I find LSEs and ESEs to be the most forceful, pushy types rather then Se base types. LSE uses force to push others towards productive activities and ESE exerts pressure on others to get them to conform to the group mood. Meanwhile SLE uses productive activities to achieve a sense of power and SEE feels power through influencing the moods of others.

    Similarly I think it might be LIIs being the ones creating forecast and ILIs creating logical constructs, ESIs being the ones occupied with decorating their homes and SEIs managing their relations with others, and so forth.


    I'm interested on what others might have to add to this and if they have seen any examples these sort of type contradictions play out in real life.
    Yes, it is quite so. But I had my doubts about 3D and 4D functions, but it is this way for 1D / 2D:

    As SocionicaSys quite nicely puts it "the higher dimensional IE "overtakes" the perception of the lower dimensional one.". This is why we can't enjoy our Suggestive IE: because that pesky Role IE keeps blocking the sweet, sweet Sugg. As an example for IEE: The Volitional Sensorics blocks the Sensual Sensorics. What this means is that an IEE feels like he needs to be strong and that sometimes you need to resolve things via "agressive negotiations". But IEE DOES NOT enjoy this! He'd much rather if he could customise the environment so it suited him better-as opposed to "STAND STRONG" attitude of Se. He would rather relax, do pleasurable things or even do nothing at all rather than being out and about and conquering. But, still, IEE feels like the environment requires of him to act through his Se and hence can't just sit back and enjoy himself.

    This sounds odd, but all that is happening is that IEE's 2D Se overtook IEE's 1D Si. And this is quite natural.

    To further use IEE when describing this when it comes to Creative(3D) and Demonstrative(4D), we are comparing the usage of Fi and Fe. And, as it turns out, IEE actually DOES use his strong understanding of Fi to modify the self referential use of Fe. In other words, IEE uses his relations with other people, things, organisations etc to pick those he favours and hence feel good. This further goes towards the point of orientation ( + / -) of functions where both the Fi and Fe of IEEs are actually +.

    Have you noticed these things about IEEs?

    edit: go from here and enjoy: http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...cii/razmernost

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    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
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    This thread seems like an example of holographic-panoramic cognition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    People are born with their id and they develop an ego over time, the ego develops in the presence of the dual-seeking function. As the ego develops the id becomes subordinate to the ego's agenda, however in the absence of the dual-seeking function, the id's agenda becomes subconsciously prioritized again. This is why people sometimes look like their contrary partners.

    eg.
    ESE is born with FiSe id, and they gradually develop FeSi ego in the presence of Ti dual-seeking. Without Ti, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an ESI, engaging with physical objects (Se) to maintain their personal attitude (Fi). At this point they are very suggestible to Te (objective logic), their movements can easily change.

    eg2.
    SLI is born with SeTi id, and they gradually develop SiTe ego in the presence of Ne dualseeking. Without Ne, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an SLE, creating logical relationships between things (Ti) to inflate their willpower (Se). At this point they are very suggestible to Ni (internal time), their plans can easily change.

    eg3.
    IEE is born with NiFe id, and they gradually develop NeFi ego in the presence of Si dualseeking. Without Si, their ego becomes deflated and their id block rises into consciousness, temporarily displacing the ego. So they become like an IEI, emotionally expressing themselves (Fe) to preserve their internal integrity (Ni). At this point they are very suggestible to Se (emerging physical data). Their physical form can easily change.
    Hmmm. So if I'm understanding this correctly, Delta STs with Se and Ti in the Id were the types of kids in school who were constantly in detention for bullying lunch money out of other kids rather then Beta STs, whom were more likely apathetic towards others and focused on their schoolwork with Si and Te in the Id. Later on, the Delta STs start realizing the need to start working on task productively and harmoniously and start putting effort into doing so. Eventually they begin to achieve this and the sense of accomplish they get in doing so attaches it to their ego. Betas STs, on the contrary, start realizing the need to be assertive in forwarding their own agendas rather then always compiling to task given by others. Thus they start putting effort into motivating themselves into accomplishing their goals and this becomes their ego.

    Does this sound accurate?

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