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Thread: LII Tips & Tricks

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    Default LII Tips & Tricks

    Nobody is going to do it for us, @ClownsandEntropy

    I'll start off.

    Buy a notebook, write a list of to-dos in it as part of your evening routine, read it again it in the morning as part of your morning routine.
    This was suggested to me by an alpha NT friend. It saves you from procrastination and analysis paralysis. Strong Te means we know which activities are most worthwhile, put it down on paper. The paper is your boss until every item is scratched out.

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    Nice start, I have oodles of productivity tricks but there are so many it kind of depends on people's issues. I've found here (https://blog.todoist.com/2015/11/30/...ivity-methods/) a really systematic take on every productivity system.

    Do other LIIs find that they get very interested in some topics? I find that when that happens I can often focus for long periods of time, and so productivity hasn't always been an issue on those big things. But also my interest in things is fickle: sometimes the interest will disappear, and I don't really know what makes it come and makes it go so I can't predict it.

    At the moment I'm not sure about making quick friends? I used to be carelessly friendly but then stuff happened and now I'm too sensitive about when I'm boring people/I don't know what to talk with people about. I'm thinking I should try to create a "mask of strong interest in other people", and trying to use the mask so often that it's easy to slip on, and trying to use the mask fully so that it doesn't seem like a mask. But both require a change in the habits in my mind. Thoughts? Any people to look to for inspiration?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Viewing from on high - looking at everything all at once. There is security in being able to peruse the entire valley below.......

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    I keep thinking this thread title says "lip tips and tricks" and was about to go on a long tangent about Kylie Jenner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Nice start, I have oodles of productivity tricks but there are so many it kind of depends on people's issues.
    Yes, I thought most LIIs suffered from the analysis paralysis quirk. Is it just me?

    Do you use the todoist app? I used to, but one noise my phone makes becomes indistinguishable from all the other noises it makes. I ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Do other LIIs find that they get very interested in some topics? I find that when that happens I can often focus for long periods of time, and so productivity hasn't always been an issue on those big things. But also my interest in things is fickle: sometimes the interest will disappear, and I don't really know what makes it come and makes it go so I can't predict it.
    Definitely. Being focused isn't my problem though, it's the endless rumination that prevents me from actually taking action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    At the moment I'm not sure about making quick friends? I used to be carelessly friendly but then stuff happened and now I'm too sensitive about when I'm boring people/I don't know what to talk with people about. I'm thinking I should try to create a "mask of strong interest in other people", and trying to use the mask so often that it's easy to slip on, and trying to use the mask fully so that it doesn't seem like a mask. But both require a change in the habits in my mind. Thoughts? Any people to look to for inspiration?
    This is going to be a big one. I think being an LII puts you at risk of becoming too asocial and then the problems just snowball. I think the "stuff" that happened is important for diagnosing what your exact problems are. In my case, not enjoying socialising meant I was sort of isolated for years and didn't develop very sharp people skills. My name is nickelslick, and I'm a social klutz. You mentioned in the other thread that you thought learning some Fi and Fe skills would help... I wonder if that's the most efficient way to learn to people for us...

    My IEI cousin, for example, will read people's facial expressions and vocal tone to gauge how things are going in a conversation, and direct the flow accordingly. I feel like trying to pick up that skill is a little futile for us. How about instead, adapting our conversation styles to gather information about our conversation partner's values (values and emotions go together, after all?) and then try to work with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I keep thinking this thread title says "lip tips and tricks" and was about to go on a long tangent about Kylie Jenner.
    It's okay, but help us out now. How would you feel if I remained poker faced, but discussed Kylie Jenner with you? Bored? Not so bored? Excited?

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    Awesome! Thanks. I'm focusing very much on his advice about Te.

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    To Do List(4/18/16):

    1). Start list
    2). Contemplate what should be on that list
    3). Look up the definition of contemplate
    4). Make time for spontaneous internet browsing
    5). Remember to finish list
    6

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    I'm sure you realise your main problem here is the internet

    Cal Newport recommends moving most of your workflow to analogue mode, using pens and paper and keeping computer use to a minimum. Not everyone can do that, but anyway. I have Safari disabled on my iPhone and I use an app similar to Evernote to note what I want to look up later at my desktop. I've been failing horribly since returning to this site, though.

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    What kind of rumination are you doing? Like, what are you ruminating about?

    I find that if I have an opportunity to feel productive then I throw myelf into it, and I can almost forget about any worries I have. But that's only if I feel like I'm being productive and that I'm on the right track. Is the issue that you don't know if your work is actually going to lead to success? One idea, if this is the case: have you tried setting smaller goals which are definitely achievable?

    If it's procrastination, you may find this useful: http://lesswrong.com/lw/3w3/how_to_b...ocrastination/. It's a structured breakdown of reasons why you might be procrastinating. I didn't find it useful, but that's because I don't often procrastinate, unless I'm tired. And if I'm tired it's obvious why I'm procrastinating.

    I also find that "setting time" is better than "setting goals". You say you're going to do an hour of whatever you want to do, and if you don't do that then you just have to sit there at your laptop like a dumb-dumb with no internet, no reading, nothing fun. Depending on your goal, maybe you won't want to actually do it, but you can go for a walk and think about it, or start whiteboarding it, or anything else. If you're still faced with that sense of "ugh", perhaps it's not actually something you care about...

    I haven't read either of Cal Newport's books - have you? I've heard interviews and he seems to make good points about careers and work.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Although I am not firm on my type being LII, I do have one suggestion.

    For me, I am completely unaware of my behaviours and noticing what I do and getting a pattern down for what I do. I have been told by psychologist that a good idea is to write down my moods for a given day, my sleep patterns and stuff like that so eventually I will have some info on what works for me and what doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    Buy a notebook
    it's better to buy something for better memory. vitamins, for the beginning

    It saves you from procrastination and analysis paralysis
    while this reminds psychasthenia
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Going back to about developing "Fi/Fe" skills,

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    My IEI cousin, for example, will read people's facial expressions and vocal tone to gauge how things are going in a conversation, and direct the flow accordingly. I feel like trying to pick up that skill is a little futile for us. How about instead, adapting our conversation styles to gather information about our conversation partner's values (values and emotions go together, after all?) and then try to work with that?
    I've tried that in the past, and it's probably my most frequent approach, but it doesn't work with new people who aren't going to open up, people I know well who I already know about their values, and groups of people where it's not normal or comfortable for people to open up about their values. So I think figuring out how to make conversation better would make life a lot easier in many cases. Do you think facial expression/vocal tone are the way to go about it? I know very little about those.

    Also,
    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    Yes, I thought most LIIs suffered from the analysis paralysis quirk. Is it just me?
    Analysis is very near and dear to an LII's heart. A lot of the time I'm analysing things needlessly, but it's not to achieve anything so it's actually enjoyable. I guess that's analysis.

    When I'm trying to make a decision about something, it's normally like an ugh field, where I think very minimally about it, or I'll ask someone else for help, or I'll just make a decision and see how it goes if the outcome isn't too important/I can change. I guess that's analysis.

    I think, indicative of what we're working on, I do analyse too much when it comes to analysis, and how to be better at connecting with people, becoming social, etc.

    I've done a business degree, so part of that was me studying how to make 80-20 decisions, which means if I have to make a decisoin, I'll figure out what my biggest concerns are, and try to solve those. And if I can't solve those, then I'll break them into smaller concerns. And if I can't solve those, it's probably a problem because that's not really a system which can be optimised, and it's something I'm less good at.

    I'm not sure, perhaps you could share advice re: what you're analysing?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    LII has undervalued extroverted thinking. The suggestion of how to deal with that is to act on your thoughts right away, otherwise it will stay as a thought and a theory, rather than become an object, or something useful in your life.
    This one is legit. It's not even really all Te. By far the most "developable" function for an LII is Si. What this means is that you should try to monitor your own needs and establish rules and systems that help you to meet them. This is your baseline for self-development. It's also good, if you can, to help solve real problems in the world for other people. Your Ne will get you into a trap of endless "what if" scenarios and thinking about things that generally don't have any relevance to reality. Even if your end goal is something way out there, make sure that you have some kind of concrete and attainable next-step goals in mind at any given time. Use your Ne as a tool to solve whatever immediate problems you're facing. Someone once asked if the creative function and mobilizing function can "self-dualize" in a way, and I think that's a good way to put it.

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    There is a certain balance you have to strike between computer and paper. I have never liked using the computer for notes of the inactive kind. If you are bored with a subject, the worst thing you can possibly do is take notes on the computer...and thus not interact with it in the moment.

    Forcing yourself to do pencil and paper takes a moment of structure that is very useful in the long run - you get to utilize your ability to turn things from nothing into something by writing them down.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I have never liked using the computer for notes...........
    ouronis,

    In my whole university career, the notes that I wrote down wouldn't fill a thin 3-ring binder (this was before PCs, laptops, etc.). By nature, I never trusted a professor's interpretation of the information; I only used them to tell me where to go look for myself. Throughout my career, I hardly ever took notes except when regulations required it. I assumed that no notes was an LII trait but perhaps I'm unique on that point; it's something about which I've never inquired.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ouronis,

    In my whole university career, the notes that I wrote down wouldn't fill a thin 3-ring binder (this was before PCs, laptops, etc.). By nature, I never trusted a professor's interpretation of the information; I only used them to tell me where to go look for myself. Throughout my career, I hardly ever took notes except when regulations required it. I assumed that no notes was an LII trait but perhaps I'm unique on that point; it's something about which I've never inquired.

    a.k.a. I/O
    No, I tended to use them as a replacement for studying...if I didn't take notes I wouldn't pay attention. But if I did, I'd get it pretty easily and cut out the studying part.

    My auditory learning abilities are also shit.

    Usually I am only motivated to learn when nobody is suggesting it directly.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    No, I tended to use them as a replacement for studying...if I didn't take notes I wouldn't pay attention. But if I did, I'd get it pretty easily and cut out the studying part.

    My auditory learning abilities are also shit.

    Usually I am only motivated to learn when nobody is suggesting it directly.
    ouronis.

    I would have thought that your learning characteristics were more Ip-traits. I guess study habits may simply be of a personal nature and not type related.........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ouronis.

    I would have thought that your learning characteristics were more Ip-traits. I guess study habits may simply be of a personal nature and not type related.........

    a.k.a. I/O
    Possibly. What's the reasoning?
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Possibly. What's the reasoning?
    ouronis,

    I have found that Ips need to interpret information in real time as it's being received but this does not work when the information has no precedent to be compared against; note-taking distracts the normal Ip process of disregarding what does not fit into the already-acquired reference system. The same is true for Ip auditory comprehension that needs a comparative Ip baseline. Acquiring totally new information is not normally an Ij problem; their problem is that they can take in too much and swamp rationalization where it takes days to surface.

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    I've been ill and haven't implemented any useful ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    There is a certain balance you have to strike between computer and paper. I have never liked using the computer for notes of the inactive kind. If you are bored with a subject, the worst thing you can possibly do is take notes on the computer...and thus not interact with it in the moment.

    Forcing yourself to do pencil and paper takes a moment of structure that is very useful in the long run - you get to utilize your ability to turn things from nothing into something by writing them down.
    You're so right. I remember being taught to draw mind maps in school and being very pleased that my grades improved when using them. Somewhere along the way I lost the habit. Processing new information in a way that's consistent with what you already know makes place for it in your memory. Then again, this could reinforce bad assumptions... I guess plain old structure is good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This one is legit. It's not even really all Te. By far the most "developable" function for an LII is Si. What this means is that you should try to monitor your own needs and establish rules and systems that help you to meet them. This is your baseline for self-development. It's also good, if you can, to help solve real problems in the world for other people. Your Ne will get you into a trap of endless "what if" scenarios and thinking about things that generally don't have any relevance to reality. Even if your end goal is something way out there, make sure that you have some kind of concrete and attainable next-step goals in mind at any given time. Use your Ne as a tool to solve whatever immediate problems you're facing. Someone once asked if the creative function and mobilizing function can "self-dualize" in a way, and I think that's a good way to put it.
    Oh man, the "what if" trap. I really wish I could turn the dial down on my Ne sometimes. So you're in the camp that says weak functions can be developed? Or just specifically the mobilizing function?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Going back to about developing "Fi/Fe" skills,



    I've tried that in the past, and it's probably my most frequent approach, but it doesn't work with new people who aren't going to open up, people I know well who I already know about their values, and groups of people where it's not normal or comfortable for people to open up about their values. So I think figuring out how to make conversation better would make life a lot easier in many cases. Do you think facial expression/vocal tone are the way to go about it? I know very little about those.
    I think paying attention to facial expression/body language/vocal tone are what feeling/sensing types are good at, and for us it's swimming against the current. I haven't had any success with that, even after reading books like Joe Navarro's "What Every Body Is Saying". Maybe being better a conversationalist is our best bet. Perhaps the more talented LIIs could give us a hint?
    Also,


    Analysis is very near and dear to an LII's heart. A lot of the time I'm analysing things needlessly, but it's not to achieve anything so it's actually enjoyable. I guess that's analysis.
    I spend hours thinking about how to optimize every little action I take to the point where it just isn't worth it. I guess it's just OCD.
    When I'm trying to make a decision about something, it's normally like an ugh field, where I think very minimally about it, or I'll ask someone else for help, or I'll just make a decision and see how it goes if the outcome isn't too important/I can change. I guess that's analysis.
    Hey, that's a really cool wiki Making immediate decisions on less important problems is something I'm going to try. Thanks, I feel like I'm in therapy having the errors in my thinking patterns pointed out

    I think, indicative of what we're working on, I do analyse too much when it comes to analysis, and how to be better at connecting with people, becoming social, etc.
    @
    I'm not sure, perhaps you could share advice re: what you're analysing?
    I think a lot of this is made worse by anxiety issues, I'm going to try to fix that first and then come back to this for a more objective perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    it's better to buy something for better memory. vitamins, for the beginning
    I've tried supplements and have had good results. Especially with Inositol, choline, zinc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    Oh man, the "what if" trap. I really wish I could turn the dial down on my Ne sometimes. So you're in the camp that says weak functions can be developed? Or just specifically the mobilizing function?
    All functions can be "developed" in the sense of 1) learning good habits that help in specific areas and 2) recognizing when and when not to apply them. In general, understanding yourself and why you do the things you do will allow you to influence your own behavior for the better.

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    Ah, so more like computer emulation. I like that a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I've tried supplements and have had good results. Especially with Inositol, choline, zinc.
    What supplements are you taking? I'm studying while working at the moment, so good study techniques might be useful. How did you come across those?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    You're so right. I remember being taught to draw mind maps in school and being very pleased that my grades improved when using them. Somewhere along the way I lost the habit. Processing new information in a way that's consistent with what you already know makes place for it in your memory. Then again, this could reinforce bad assumptions... I guess plain old structure is good enough.
    It also depends on what you're learning. I liked to do most of my note taking on paper when I was at Uni, but that only worked cos I was in a low-content high-structure subject. But I once did a science (psychology) subject which had way too much content for me, and there was only minimal structure, so computer was the best method for me. My friends who study medicine or engineering have told me similar - they just do everything on computer and there's so much content it wouldn't be feasible to do it on paper.

    I was thinking about creating a personal wiki page for my own studies - so I could see how ideas fit together. But I'm not sure about the upkeep costs. What are your thoughts on that?

    Ultimately, I feel the best way to know that you've learned something is the Feynmen Method, or I guess you could call it the Feynman Test: Can you explain this to someone with no knowledge about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I think paying attention to facial expression/body language/vocal tone are what feeling/sensing types are good at, and for us it's swimming against the current. I haven't had any success with that, even after reading books like Joe Navarro's "What Every Body Is Saying". Maybe being better a conversationalist is our best bet. Perhaps the more talented LIIs could give us a hint?
    Yeah, dunno. I've also found those books only minorly helpful. Even Dale Carnegie, which everyone in social skills development idolises, I don't feel like I can learn anything from because it all seems too superficial and, once people know that I'm friendly and there, I don't actually have anything to say or to ask them.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I feel like I'm in therapy having the errors in my thinking patterns pointed out
    Haha, it's very LII to want a therapist to point out their errors in thinking. Most would want emotional support. Anyway, yeah making fast decisions on small things avoids feeling guilty about delaying them. Although I'm lucky that I don't have to make many decisions completely by myself - often other's have done it already so I just ask them.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickelslick View Post
    I think a lot of this is made worse by anxiety issues, I'm going to try to fix that first and then come back to this for a more objective perspective.
    Yeah kinda the same for me, except I think the therapist-I'm-seeing's opinion is that I just need to work on the social skills confidence part and that will remove the anxiety, because for me that's kinda the direction of the causal arrow.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    All functions can be "developed" in the sense of 1) learning good habits that help in specific areas and 2) recognizing when and when not to apply them. In general, understanding yourself and why you do the things you do will allow you to influence your own behavior for the better.
    How does this work with, say, Se? or Fe? Are you still trying to understand yourself there, or is it more about understanding others?

    I think tthe IEs you're stronger in are the ones where it's easy to learn good habits and recognise when to apply them. When it comes to 2D functions, you go from being subconsciously able to do things, to consciously needing to pay attention so you can identify which habits are good and which are bad. And 1D functions all the more.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    How does this work with, say, Se? or Fe? Are you still trying to understand yourself there, or is it more about understanding others?

    I think tthe IEs you're stronger in are the ones where it's easy to learn good habits and recognise when to apply them. When it comes to 2D functions, you go from being subconsciously able to do things, to consciously needing to pay attention so you can identify which habits are good and which are bad. And 1D functions all the more.
    Yeah clearly it is much harder to develop the Suggestive and Vulnerable functions. But it can be done, enough that you can manage for yourself (somewhat). And definitely recognizing when other people are using Fe, and when you might be unconsciously rejecting it for no good reason. The Suggestive function can be used to manipulate someone, and I see the Role function as a defense mechanism against that, but it requires balance.

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    Fellow LII I will need help in comprising a dating profile for an ESE soon soon maybe

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    I find that the weak functions of LII explain most of my individual quirks to the point that I have used Socionics as a crutch for my behaviors related to these functions. I don't think this is healthy behavior because instead of self-improvement I have simply made excuses to myself about my nature. I have resolved to let go of Socionics as my crutch in uncomfortable situations and instead learn as much as I can from any faux pas that I may experience in order bring my traits into balance.

    As the expectation in this thread is to provide advice, I would advise LIIs not to view Socionics as the final solution to your weaknesses. It explains them, but it is up to you to decide what to do as a result of your self-discovery.

    Socionics might be an easy system to understand and apply, and it has a special appeal to us LIIs who really want people to make sense, but the fact is that it can not account for every individual trait of every individual. You may find that humans are more than the machines that you make them out to be.

  28. #28
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    I find that the weak functions of LII explain most of my individual quirks to the point that I have used Socionics as a crutch for my behaviors related to these functions. I don't think this is healthy behavior because instead of self-improvement I have simply made excuses to myself about my nature. I have resolved to let go of Socionics as my crutch in uncomfortable situations and instead learn as much as I can from any faux pas that I may experience in order bring my traits into balance.

    As the expectation in this thread is to provide advice, I would advise LIIs not to view Socionics as the final solution to your weaknesses. It explains them, but it is up to you to decide what to do as a result of your self-discovery.

    Socionics might be an easy system to understand and apply, and it has a special appeal to us LIIs who really want people to make sense, but the fact is that it can not account for every individual trait of every individual. You may find that humans are more than the machines that you make them out to be.
    Yeah I agree with this. I guess what I'm trying to get out of this thread is to have LIIs who likely have similar experiences and weaknesses explain what they've done to improve. I'm sure a lot of this advice would transfer to other types too, but it being explained in a LII way for LII issues is helpful.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    A recent lesson I've learned is that people are inspired to feel confident about short, compact statements...try to stay away from the 'complex' mechanics of an issue and try to just articulate the unassailable high points, it'll go better. Not even in debate, just in discussion in general. Of course..not if you're actually interested in the other person's perspective. Useful at work and with people resistant to more detailed understandings, though.

    I think trying to cover caveats in reasoning communicates insecurity to most people. Or maybe they just need to have the short statements before they can get interested in the rest.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    A recent lesson I've learned is that people are inspired to feel confident about short, compact statements...try to stay away from the 'complex' mechanics of an issue and try to just articulate the unassailable high points, it'll go better. Not even in debate, just in discussion in general. Of course..not if you're actually interested in the other person's perspective. Useful at work and with people resistant to more detailed understandings, though.

    I think trying to cover caveats in reasoning communicates insecurity to most people. Or maybe they just need to have the short statements before they can get interested in the rest.
    Yeah, LIIs tend to waffle on too much because we see all the details of the issue and what to give a complete picture of the story. But, humans can only remember about eight things at a time, and so you really need to keep everything short. When going for interviews we're told to use the STAR framework. When explaining things in consulting, we're told to use the Situation, Complication, Question and Answer approach, which I think is very useful.

    Argh, too much detail! Let me start again....

    Yeah, LIIs tend to go give too much detail at once. Check out the STAR framework for interviews/stories or the SCQA framework for giving people information/persuading.

    Wait, one more time...

    Yes. I agree.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    I find this video to be relatable on a few levels. I think this video is a good run-down of tips and tricks from someone who's obviously been through the issues involved with being one member of a glut yet wanting an interesting job.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    [video]

    I find this video to be relatable on a few levels. I think this video is a good run-down of tips and tricks from someone who's obviously been through the issues involved with being one member of a glut yet wanting an interesting job.
    These are the slides: http://www.slideshare.net/TetianaIva...st-in-6-months. The video is a bit long, but you can check out the slides and navigate to the part you want. What did you like about it, ouronis?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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