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Thread: Crappiness of mirror relations understated in socionics literature?

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    Default Crappiness of mirror relations understated in socionics literature?

    I've been reading up on intertype relations a bit recently and most of what I read seems to view these as moderately positive relations. Based on experience however I believe these to be quite shitty in spite of the types sharing the same quadra. I'll provide some simple, generalized examples so you can see what I mean:

    SLE breaking the rules then being reprimanded by LSI.
    EII criticizing IEE for teasing others in a somewhat offensive manner and IEE criticizing EII for over-seriousness.
    LSE criticizing SLI for laziness and apathy and SLI in turn criticizing LSE for restlessness.
    SEE criticizing ESI for living a turtled, sheltered, boxed up life and ESI criticizing SEE for playing power games and manipulating people.
    ESE criticizing SEI for hoarding things too much to themselves and SEI criticizing ESE for possessive control in other's lives.
    ILI criticizing the reckless risk taking of LIE and LIE criticizing ILI for passiveness.
    LII criticizing ILE for inappropriateness and ILE criticizing LII for lack of spontaneity.
    IEI criticizing EIE for disturbing the peace and traquility and EIE criticizing IEI for lack of involvement in the world.


    There may be some explanations for this. Mirror relations are the only relations besides conflict where the types have opposing temperaments AND opposing styles of cognition. I saw somewhere that described Mirrors relations as direct mutual supervision and I would agree with this.

    Thoughts?

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    Hahah sort of. I am thinking of a conversation with one of my male EIE friends from the past, who I don't see anymore. [Not my EIE ex as it didn't go anything like that with him.]

    EIE: "Get up bitch, I am taking you to the beach. You look like a ghost"

    Me: "Nope, I'm good."

    EIE: "Nooo, you're pale and need some sun."

    Me: "I am allergic to the sun"

    EIE: "Fucking vampire!"

    Me: "Thank you."

    EIE: "I will be back in two hours. We are going shopping."

    Me: "That'll work."

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Hahah sort of. I am thinking of a conversation with one of my male EIE friends from the past, who I don't see anymore. [Not my EIE ex as it didn't go anything like that with him.]

    EIE: "Get up bitch, I am taking you to the beach. You look like a ghost"

    Me: "Nope, I'm good."

    EIE: "Nooo, you're pale and need some sun."

    Me: "I am allergic to the sun"

    EIE: "Fucking vampire!"

    Me: "Thank you."

    EIE: "I will be back in two hours. We are going shopping."

    Me: "That'll work."
    yes, all EIEs are this dude:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
    yes, all EIEs are this dude:


    Nooooo! Not my EIE bio-dad. He is all sweet and uplifting.

    My friend is flamboyantly gay and he calls everyone "bitch". I don't take it the wrong way from him. If someone else called me bitch I might not like it.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    In my experience mirror relations work quite well so long as they focus on ego-block stuff, however when circumstances force them to handle super-ego-block stuff together, things deteriorate quickly as each one's preferred way of handling those issues steps on the other's vulnerable function.
    Last edited by tejing; 04-14-2016 at 09:54 PM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    In my experience mirror relations work quite well so long they focus on ego-block stuff, however when circumstances force them to handle super-ego-block stuff together, things deteriorate quickly as each one's preferred way of handling those issues steps on the other's vulnerable function.
    I think you're right. Most of the time mirror relations are good. I enjoy the company of ILEs and get along with them most of the time. Occasionally they can annoy me though because some have a tendency to offend other or take their joking too far (Fi PoLR).
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    i dont know if i'd criticize an LIE for reckless risk taking. I think i'd encourage it in many cases.

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    I'd say mirror relations are one of the better ones. Mirrors are often good friends or end up in couples, from what I've observed. Definitely wouldn't describe them as shitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I've been reading up on intertype relations a bit recently and most of what I read seems to view these as moderately positive relations. Based on experience however I believe these to be quite shitty in spite of the types sharing the same quadra. I'll provide some simple, generalized examples so you can see what I mean:

    IEI criticizing EIE for disturbing the peace and traquility and EIE criticizing IEI for lack of involvement in the world

    Thoughts?
    No. Disturbing the peace? SLEs are IEI duals for christ's sake. Lack of involvement? Sounds alright I guess. I tend to get a bit pissed at IEI passive manipulation but for the most part the relationship is fine. IEIs get annoyed at EIEs overtly trying to control them. Make for good friendships, but no real passion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
    No. Disturbing the peace? SLEs are IEI duals for christ's sake. Lack of involvement? Sounds alright I guess. I tend to get a bit pissed at IEI passive manipulation but for the most part the relationship is fine. IEIs get annoyed at EIEs overtly trying to control them. Make for good friendships, but no real passion.
    I don't call them "partners in crime" for nothing. I think an E9 of any type would have more problem with someone disturbing their peace. I find too much peace and tranquility overrated and a bit boring after awhile.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    Muddytextures,

    I would agree that they are the least complementary as far as information processing is concerned. I wrote the following in 2010:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
    No. Disturbing the peace? SLEs are IEI duals for christ's sake. Lack of involvement? Sounds alright I guess. I tend to get a bit pissed at IEI passive manipulation but for the most part the relationship is fine. IEIs get annoyed at EIEs overtly trying to control them. Make for good friendships, but no real passion.
    I didn't really know what to put for EIE and IEI as I don't have much personal experience with them but didn't want have them being the only one left out so I just put the best bullshit answer I could think of lol. There's a reason why it was last on the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Muddytextures,

    I would agree that they are the least complementary as far as information processing is concerned. I wrote the following in 2010:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    I agree that super ego relationship are easy to start. Both consider the other person kind and well intentioned

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    LII wants to see me acting as rational... and sometimes to add little bit of human perspective.
    One LII said: If you are not going to take action with your ideas, I will use them.
    Me: Just go ahead [like there is a finite amount of them]. There is no need to do something about it at this point.

    LII: What about ethical concerns?
    Me: I don't understand why it is wrong that two terminally ill adults want to hypothetically swap their brains... If it can save a life... hypothetically.
    extrospection > introspection

    Head type as in being truly head type and probably 7>5. Too divergent, scattered and expressive for typical 5 and that is the preferred way although long term focus usually helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    LII wants to see me acting as rational... and sometimes to add little bit of human perspective.
    One LII said: If you are not going to take action with your ideas, I will use them.
    Me: Just go ahead [like there is a finite amount of them]. There is no need to do something about it at this point.

    LII: What about ethical concerns?
    Me: I don't understand why it is wrong that two terminally ill adults want to hypothetically swap their brains... If it can save a life... hypothetically.
    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I'd say mirror relations are one of the better ones. Mirrors are often good friends or end up in couples, from what I've observed. Definitely wouldn't describe them as shitty.
    I can concur with Mirror couples being fairly common. In my experience, especially people from the Gamma and Delta Quadras are frequently found having married their Mirror (primarily SEE-ESI, followed by IEE-EII).
    It might be a matter of Fi valuing similarity highly, including both people having Fi in their Ego/as their valued function.

    Having said that, I don't see Mirror being generally desirable for marriage. Both types are similar enough to have pretty similar weaknesses, but different enough to butt heads at times.
    Mirrors can be great for having fruitful discussions, but not as much for raising a family or finding someone to balance you out. Personally, I am also not attracted or interested in dating a Mirror type, and this may be partly because of the aforementioned reasons.

    All in all, Mirror is one of the better relations, but at the same time it can be lacking of that special "zing" of attraction, or that feeling of a "soulmate connection".
    Those aspects may develop over time with enough care, attention and attachment, but in comparison to other relations, there seems to remain some kind of a lack somehow.

    (Needless to say, Mirror partners can have difficulties with sustaining the relationship. Often they seemingly suddenly divorce or break-up, or have to keep a certain distance in order to not "blow up" on each other. I've seen several IEE-EII couples living in different apartments even, or having an "open relationship" to circumvent this issue.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I can concur with Mirror couples being fairly common. In my experience, especially people from the Gamma and Delta Quadras are frequently found having married their Mirror (primarily SEE-ESI, followed by IEE-EII).
    It might be a matter of Fi valuing similarity highly, including both people having Fi in their Ego/as their valued function.

    Having said that, I don't see Mirror being generally desirable for marriage. Both types are similar enough to have pretty similar weaknesses, but different enough to butt heads at times.
    Mirrors can be great for having fruitful discussions, but not as much for raising a family or finding someone to balance you out. Personally, I am also not attracted or interested in dating a Mirror type, and this may be partly because of the aforementioned reasons.

    All in all, Mirror is one of the better relations, but at the same time it can be lacking of that special "zing" of attraction, or that feeling of a "soulmate connection".
    Those aspects may develop over time with enough care, attention and attachment, but in comparison to other relations, there seems to remain some kind of a lack somehow.

    (Needless to say, Mirror partners can have difficulties with sustaining the relationship. Often they seemingly suddenly divorce or break-up, or have to keep a certain distance in order to not "blow up" on each other. I've seen several IEE-EII couples living in different apartments even, or having an "open relationship" to circumvent this issue.)
    IEE/EII couples do seem very common (and agree with Fi ego mirrors the most likely to end up in romantic relationships for some reason). I also think mirrors are usually a bad match for long-term romantic relationships, similarities usually bury them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    i dont know if i'd criticize an LIE for reckless risk taking. I think i'd encourage it in many cases.
    If you know an LIE who is taking risks, you'll probably end up sharing the wealth.

    I find ILI's make very good friends. Smart, insightful, funny, and great planners. I would never criticize an ILI for sitting back and planning, rather than doing. Their plans are usually insightful and very well thought-out, when they are not rushed into doing something that they haven't had time to consider. The ones I know are also very good doers, when they do decide to do something.

    I've only dated one female ILI. While I really liked how her mind worked, and we got along well and had a great time, ultimately, neither of us had the long-term-mate characteristics that the other was looking for.

    On the other hand, my SLI ex is my Socionics Supervisor, which is considered to be one of the worst types of interpersonal relationships, but because she was a strong Te-subtype, she looked much more like my Mirror than my Supervisor, and this probably made things much, much better than they would have been otherwise.

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    mirror relations are pretty boring IME

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    I have a couple of good friends who are EIIs, one male one female, fwiw...we get along well, usually doing things like hiking, going out to eat, etc. I don't think it's a bad relationship, though I wouldn't have wanted to be in a romantic relationship w an EII bc they generally feel too "soft" for me....

    In my experience, mirrors get a little annoyed sometimes w the lack of each other's proficiency in their own DS function and in the mirror's PoLR (which, while not valued explicitly, is still important). So from my perspective, EIIs don't bring the Si I need and are too weak in Se (I can make up for it to an extent but prefer not to), and from their perspective, I'm sure, I am woefully weak in Te and too lacking in the solid Ti which forces them to take care of it when they'd rather not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I have a couple of good friends who are EIIs, one male one female, fwiw...we get along well, usually doing things like hiking, going out to eat, etc. I don't think it's a bad relationship, though I wouldn't have wanted to be in a romantic relationship w an EII bc they generally feel too "soft" for me....

    In my experience, mirrors get a little annoyed sometimes w the lack of each other's proficiency in their own DS function and in the mirror's PoLR (which, while not valued explicitly, is still important). So from my perspective, EIIs don't bring the Si I need and are too weak in Se (I can make up for it to an extent but prefer not to), and from their perspective, I'm sure, I am woefully weak in Te and too lacking in the solid Ti which forces them to take care of it when they'd rather not.
    I love IEE and yes their extroverted social nature gets to me but when at home we do relax and find comfort in the home however I can like a neat environment and they can be messy (talking about the males); I love their attentive and affectionate nature though they can be overly attentive which I sometimes don't mind. I love my IEE girlfriends. One is going to build a giant Lego set with me. So involved and nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I have a couple of good friends who are EIIs, one male one female, fwiw...we get along well, usually doing things like hiking, going out to eat, etc. I don't think it's a bad relationship, though I wouldn't have wanted to be in a romantic relationship w an EII bc they generally feel too "soft" for me....

    In my experience, mirrors get a little annoyed sometimes w the lack of each other's proficiency in their own DS function and in the mirror's PoLR (which, while not valued explicitly, is still important). So from my perspective, EIIs don't bring the Si I need and are too weak in Se (I can make up for it to an extent but prefer not to), and from their perspective, I'm sure, I am woefully weak in Te and too lacking in the solid Ti which forces them to take care of it when they'd rather not.
    Sapphire, I'm not bothered by people like SEE can be or get I'm not constantly moody as my moods are more even keel. So, I ooften find myself not having much to vent about with regards to people and relationships except when I'm explaining various behaviors on the forum, those are examples. In real life I love my relationships and hang around, support, and listen. I just don't accumulate negative feelings so I guess I don't have bad things to say. I'm content in most situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    LSE criticizing SLI for laziness and apathy and SLI in turn criticizing LSE for restlessness.
    I had friendly relations with SLI. There was no criticizing. We just had close interests and sympathy.
    Also SLI are not lazy and LSE are not restlessness. Descriptions of types are exaggerated to make easier understanding of types differences.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    In my reading experience, most articles on all inter-type relations are negative. They all end up comparing the relation in question unfavorably to duality.

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    I've found that the only relation I've knowingly gone through is mirror. It went well enough. I'll summarize.

    ILI says hi to LIE
    Asks type, learns is mirror.
    ILI has nothing to say, just listens.
    LIE talks about economics.
    Question comes up that he can't answer.
    ILI starts talking, and he watches.

    This is just my one example of mirror type. I'm probably romanticizing it too much, but meh.

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    Not sure if this guy I know is LIE or EIE, but I'm leaning towards EIE.. so I guess we would be mirrors. I thought he was soooo cool and smart a few years ago and looked up to him a lot, I would get nervous around him and act really weird. He wasn't the nicest to me and kinda treated me like I was beneath him. I got over it and now a lot of the stuff he does and his outfits and stuff just make me cringe and the fact that I ever felt the way I did about him makes me laugh now. This seems kinda similar to what I've read in mirror descriptions

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    I've always needed a cushion of distance for things to stay healthy between me and LSIs. I mean, in the first place relationships are hard for me lol, so some distance is always inevitably needed by me. It seems like an optimal balance (from my perception anyway) is hard to strike sometimes, partly due to us both having weak ethical abilities while finding each other attractive, and partly due to unavoidable environmental factors (and this is pretty important as a beta and as an SLE). It also might have to do with subtype or individual differences. When LSIs and I take instant interest in one another and begin to interact vigorously from the beginning, things end up blowing up. But with those LSIs I've met where our relationship is slow to start and grows slowly over time with a weak simmer, our distant connection has been maintained.
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