View Poll Results: Text, Images, or raw Abstracts?

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  • I think in text. It's good enough.

    2 15.38%
  • I think in text and it's bullshit.

    1 7.69%
  • I'm Visual. Makes things a bit difficult, but it'll do.

    0 0%
  • Visual. Text is pretentious. Abstracts are a meme.

    0 0%
  • I tend towards pure abstracts, but no one else will know the difference.

    5 38.46%
  • Fuckin plebs. Abstract Master Race, bitch.

    5 38.46%
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Thread: Thinking in Text vs. Images or Abstracts

  1. #41
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    Although I mainly think in text, when it comes to numbers and musical notes (especially the latter) I tend to think in colors. For example, I associate odd numbers and, more specifically, prime numbers, with darker colors (brown, red, dark orange) and even numbers with lighter ones (yellow, turquoise, light green). Same thing with pitches (F is green, G is brown, A is red and so on). The color also depends on the instrument which is being played.

    I think I have some kind of synethesia but I wonder how these factors can influence Model A. Perhaps they're signs of high ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I think your way of processing, as you wrote it, was a little harder for me to tune into and follow. I am still not completely sure what it means to be a visual/spatial thinker. I guess Wyrd's thinking is pretty normal to me. She describes imagining/visualizing a scene from memory and/or anticipating what it would be like outside of having the actual experience.
    Ah which part of it was hardest to tune into? I'm really curious about this Btw I could've organized the description in that post better... I rewrote the first version of that post but then didn't have time to fix it all up after the rewrite. Sorry if that made it harder to follow it.

    As for the visual-spatial thinking... I noticed in articles several things are often grouped into the idea of visual/spatial thinking. Tbh mine is way more spatial than visual, though ofc it has to have some visual details, those are in some holistic visuals of objects/situations. That quick visual picture of them that I mentioned, I pick up the logical relations from it mostly. It's the same as when I look around in the surroundings, just done mentally. I guess the other thinking process that's not visual at all still works with similar logical information, just more abstractly.


    When I read a book I get the visual, some sensory, emotions/feelings, along with the words even if I am reading about things outside personal experience. Unlike @Fvaelynn reading doesn't trip me up. I can process it simultaneously. The article @unsuccessfull Alphamale and I both linked was better for me in terms of explaining my abstract thought. That is right up there with my verbal and visual. I don't have problems understanding concrete thinkers but sometimes explaining to them can be more difficult and even draining.

    Hmm, when I looked for a test to distinguish abstract thinking I ended up finding one that tested abstract reasoning so I took it. I got 8 out of 10 right. I got a bit bored of it by the end and my mind was wandering so I guessed at the last two to end my torment. I really have to be a frame of mind where I want to take these tests. I score higher when I consistently challenge myself.
    I don't think that distinction about concrete vs abstract thinking works as is. For me it depends on the type of topic whether I do concrete or abstract thinking... for example, for maths related stuff I definitely do abstract thinking easily, and for emotional topics I struggle with abstraction of the feelings and people related stuff. That's where I might have some issue following your explanations.

    That test you linked I found very easy, so if that's abstract reasoning then I definitely have it.

    I guess my nonvisual thinking process I described is also abstract thinking.


    Ok, so I did another exercise, this morning, this time I closed my eyes and challenged myself to navigate my home without opening them. I did pretty well since I probably didn't bumped into things any more than I do with my eyes open. lol I was very focused on visualizing each step, estimating the distance from one thing to another. I had to stop a couple times and get my bearings. It was the open spaces that I found harder to judge the distance even though I could visualize the layout just fine. I have never memorized how many steps from one thing to another since I have never had to. I had some eye allergy problem that most likely helped me with this exercise since I had been learning to navigate with eyes swollen closed a few times until I took the meds .

    Anyway, I was able to get myself a drink and back to my room without spilling it, all with my eyes closed. It took so much longer. My worst fear has always been to go blind. I think I have been able to face it but it doesn't make the idea any less terrifying on a grand scale. Blind people who can navigate their surroundings and even live on their own amaze me.
    Heh I tried this now. Had no problem carrying the drink without spilling it, actually I paid zero extra attention to it and it was still fine. With moving around objects, I did have to reach out with my arms sometimes to be sure I don't take the wrong angle for picking the route in the rooms when going around/amongst many objects. I didn't explicitly visualize anything at all. (Perhaps very quick flashes of the holistic pictures here and there but without me paying attention, more automatic.) I just had spatial "feelings" and "feelings" of distance as normal, but it was not 100% precise/reliable or I wouldn't have felt the need to reach out with arms at times. Still pretty good. I don't see the need to count and memorize steps, I can just "feel" the distance being taken (though not 100% precise as I said).


    I could not read a map until I was older than most. I covered for that in other ways. It only helped when someone told me to use the sun for a sense of direction and that I could do. I probably just had an overall bad sense of geography and mostly used landmarks to navigate familiar places. I could get turned around in unfamiliar areas and get overwhelmed to the point I would just drive until I found a way out. :/ I don't fear getting lost anymore.
    Ah, we are complete opposites here.


    As far as what pookie describes about sequence, I take that for granted and it is through reading this thread that I see not everyone does that. There is one particular person, I know, that has a strange time perception in comparison to my own. They think of something that happened in the morning might as well be a long time ago and they often forget the sequence of events or how long ago something actually occurred. It is like, a week ago might as well have been a month ago to them. I would say they are more "in the moment" because of this. I often laugh at their scale of time because it seems so strange to me. I see this might have something to do with how they process and store information.
    Yah that's weird to me. I'm pretty in the moment but I do not have a problem with felt sense of time. What's their sociotype btw? Out of curiosity.


    I have a pretty good idea of when something happened. I am not always 100% on sequence of events but I get close enough that it doesn't really matter. As I get older I might be off by a year (in age, not time) when looking back at my childhood but it is not blocky or anything. It was for awhile there but I had other things going on. I am off sometimes because of a shifting point from one age to another.
    Yep I'm like this too, got a pretty good idea of when something happened and remember my childhood etc well. I didn't get your last sentence though about shifting points and ages. I don't think I have that part


    I feel like I have had to repair a lot of self inflicted damage to my brain but it is obvious that I have repaired it. I have most of my memories back now and a sense of wholeness that was lacking a few years ago.
    That's cool, mind me asking what helped the most? EDIT: I realize this is off topic, but if you do want to reply, I'd be very glad to hear about it in PM or in another thread


    Edit: I don't know if this is relevant or not but I did experience a time period where I was obsessively counting things to ease tension. I vaguely remember that I would see the numbers overlaying the image of whatever I was counting. It was a very stressful period in my life. The numbers hung in the air over everything. I don't do that anymore. I think it was a way of grounding myself.
    I can imagine that helping with grounding from too much emotionality...?


    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    An interesting first-hand account of someone with autism describing her thinking process and how she accesses visual and verbal information:

    http://www.weautistic.com/topics/my-...ism-think.html
    Cool. Pretty foreign to me.


    Chess is a good representation of visual spatial thinking... there is a logic and maneuvering to it, but the parts are visual and physical things rather than abstract concepts such as words. It is still about logic the logic is just visual and spatial. If you look at a parking spot and you think "I can fit my car in there", you are accessing some visual spatial part of your brain. Now whether you can actually park the car, that's another question and has more to do with your kinesthetic intelligence. Pouring a drink and then holding it and not spilling it has actually probably more to do with kinesthetic intelligence.

    The talk about autism is completely backwards: although autistics struggle to pick up language at an early age, they tend to score much higher on Verbal intelligence measures than Performance (i.e. visual spatial) measures. It's actually kind of a strange thing... autistics don't think exclusively in pictures what they do is they take an abstract concept and will obsess over it trying to associate it with a concrete depiction. This is why they always develop obsessions... What they cannot do is take a visual spatial representation and extrapolate the abstract principles from it, and then relate that with other abstract concepts... this is why their visual spatial scores are always lower.
    That's interesting too, I'm quite the opposite to the autistic stuff here. I find it easy to extract abstract logic from visual-spatial representations. Foundation of my thinking basically. I tried that approach with taking an abstract concept and try and associate it with concrete details but I find I don't like to do it in that order.


    And it was mentioned how some don't think while taking action. Yeah me either much, some of the thinking bits in flashes at best, I don't like to disassociate from the action.
    Last edited by Myst; 07-09-2017 at 09:57 PM.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Although I mainly think in text, when it comes to numbers and musical notes (especially the latter) I tend to think in colors. For example, I associate odd numbers and, more specifically, prime numbers, with darker colors (brown, red, dark orange) and even numbers with lighter ones (yellow, turquoise, light green). Same thing with pitches (F is green, G is brown, A is red and so on). The color also depends on the instrument which is being played.

    I think I have some kind of synethesia but I wonder how these factors can influence Model A. Perhaps they're signs of high ?
    I have the synesthesia too, colours for numbers is actually a pretty simple example of it, mine gets much more complex. Otoh, I don't have the colour-musical notes version of it, that's interesting. I wouldn't want to relate it to dimensionality of any IE. In my case the only thing I'd relate to IEs about it is that it tends to happen to numbers and logical concepts of logical systems, so I see it as Ti related in my case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    This just sounds like some sort of speculative autistic buzzword-using to me. The last thing I read about autism says that they don't engage in any sort of pretending since they have impaired theory of mind and it's difficult to impossible for them to notice their own mental states in order to enjoy simulating a different one, and they can't solve a certain puzzle even if they want to. This is basically the opposite thing, saying they have to simulate mental states due to not having abstract thinking or something. Which is it? Aside from people with really obvious impairments (including milder ones, just clear impairments) all the speculation is useless.
    Are you referring to squark's article? I didn't speculate about this myself. I don't really like to, I keep these things at the level of observation until I truly see a connection logically between things. I agree with you about the speculation being useless...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Are you referring to squark's article? I didn't speculate about this myself. I don't really like to, I keep these things at the level of observation until I truly see a connection logically between things. I agree with you about the speculation being useless...
    Yes. I think it's useful if there's some effort to actually confirm or deny it in some way, but just saying "this sounds nice" is useless, even if pretty much everyone occasionally does it. And it's rather stupid when the "this sounds nice" is about something that's only interesting for its ability to horrify and perplex people. It's like some sort of counterphobic response (not in the enneagram way). It's like calling everyone you think is bad a psychopath. It's just a way to freak people out and rile them up, and mostly seems to tie into a sense of shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Yes. I think it's useful if there's some effort to actually confirm or deny it in some way, but just saying "this sounds nice" is useless, even if pretty much everyone occasionally does it. And it's rather stupid when the "this sounds nice" is about something that's only interesting for its ability to horrify and perplex people. It's like some sort of counterphobic response (not in the enneagram way). It's like calling everyone you think is bad a psychopath. It's just a way to freak people out and rile them up, and mostly seems to tie into a sense of shame.
    I don't mind collecting observations. Horrifying or not The psychopath stuff, it can just be a cognitive error of overgeneralizing.



    OK, reading more closely through Temple Grandin's article as linked earlier.

    The visual associative stuff just still had me go "wtf", lol. Interesting stuff, completely foreign to me. Especially this web of interrelated pictures.

    The detail orientation for seeing objects was also pretty foreign. I have holistic sensory images when I look in the surroundings, no specific detail focus, instead all the details are integrated into the holistic image, essentially my brain processes all the sensory details at once in a very efficient way to form the realistic holistic image. It has the details but I don't get overfocused on one detail. I can look at details one by one if I have to for something that needs it, but by default I don't usually have to bother with that.
    So the holistic image of the dog is what I'd use in the example about differentiating the miniature dachshund from a cat, not going by just the form of the nose, that seems way more close-detail oriented than my visuality. To me the miniature dachshund has many many features that are not catlike, and the holistic image will reflect that with all that in one.

    What I did relate to very much is this part: "My mind seeks these categories amidst an array of little details. In problem solving, my thinking process is like that of an epidemiologist tracking down a disease. The epidemiologist collects lots of little pieces of information and finally figures out the common factor that caused certain people to fall ill. For example, they may all have eaten strawberries from a certain place." I can and will do this for complex topics, totally. It does require careful detail orientation then but it's different from the sensory detail orientation. It's those bits of thinking I described earlier, for the nonvisual part of my thinking.

    So yeah, it's still not visual in the way as described by Temple Grandin. Understanding of concepts also isn't. The example of the key opening locks with the more abstract phrasing of "key to success", I didn't relate to that either at all. I just see it as: key = grants access to something. No visuals here. I wouldn't even want them. To me it seems too distracting/taking extra time/inefficient.
    The part on money was also weird to me because quantities are abstract to me (tables full of figures are great actually ), same for quantities of money. I'd find it really lacking if I tried to concretize a billion dollars as the cost for building the Denver airport. Too much concretism there.

    The other part I somewhat related to is ability to focus on problem solving in a social situation. I do approach all situations from an orientation towards impersonal tasks by default but I can get engaged in the social aspect by others. If someone has a problem, I will dial up the problem solving focus to full but I'll still also be engaged in the social/emotional part. I actually quite like these two running together.

    And some of this: "Non-autistic people seem to have a whole upper layer of verbal thinking that is merged with their emotions. By contrast, unless I panic, I use logic to make all decisions; my thinking can be done independently of emotion. In fact, I seem to lack a higher consciousness composed of abstract verbal thoughts that are merged with emotion". I can have thinking that's a bit involved, not just detached, so it's emotional then in that sense, and it can actually help decision making sometimes, but it's just basic emotions, not abstract feelings so in that sense I relate if that's what was meant. Idk, was that it? My verbal thinking when it's the "silent text" isn't emotional, at all, and this is my default. It can run atop of strong involvement with the situation and can become quite intertwined with some basic emotions that way (and use them for decision making) but the thinking part itself isn't that, by default. If I focus more on the tone of the words then maybe but that doesn't feel like my default thinking because it does not run on a logical path to a conclusion neatly.
    Last edited by Myst; 07-09-2017 at 11:07 PM.

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    That article is someone using a bunch of metaphors and words to say how much they don't get metaphors and words, LOL.

    The description of autistic vs. non-autistic thinking appears to be, shockingly, that people who don't get abstracts as much have a higher tendency to want to force their mind to be something concrete. Forcing your mind to consistently work with one metaphor also seems in line with it. I'd say most people use lots of different metaphors based on what kind of task they're doing, not just one different metaphor (like "the computer is merged with the operator". Most people are not consistently using computer metaphors unless they're modern Anglo philosophers or disciples of them, and even that's only ideological).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    That article is someone using a bunch of metaphors and words to say how much they don't get metaphors and words, LOL.
    Er, seemed like an analysis put in an abstract enough way but I didn't really see many metaphors in there.


    The description of autistic vs. non-autistic thinking appears to be, shockingly, that people who don't get abstracts as much have a higher tendency to want to force their mind to be something concrete. Forcing your mind to consistently work with one metaphor also seems in line with it. I'd say most people use lots of different metaphors based on what kind of task they're doing, not just one different metaphor (like "the computer is merged with the operator". Most people are not consistently using computer metaphors unless they're modern Anglo philosophers or disciples of them, and even that's only ideological).
    I use "computer metaphors" a lot myself actually, it's a cognitive psychology thing really in my case (my background).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    This just sounds like some sort of speculative autistic buzzword-using to me. The last thing I read about autism says that they don't engage in any sort of pretending since they have impaired theory of mind and it's difficult to impossible for them to notice their own mental states in order to enjoy simulating a different one, and they can't solve a certain puzzle even if they want to. This is basically the opposite thing, saying they have to simulate mental states due to not having abstract thinking or something. Which is it? Aside from people with really obvious impairments (including milder ones, just clear impairments) all the speculation is useless.
    The person talking about being autistic and thinking visually? I don't think it even matters if they're autistic or not (though they speak about their diagnosis and it's not really in doubt) because the point is that they're describing visual thinking. It's one person's account of how they think visually, and you can take it for that.

    If you're referring to the study I linked - they were measuring brain activity as both an autistic group and a control group of participants read different kinds of sentences. I only pulled a few short sections out of it to quote here, some of which was speculative, so it's not going to be the whole picture. I gave the link to the study which is obviously going to be a lot more complete than the couple of sentences I quoted if you're interested. You can also do your own article search and find a lot more.

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    my mind is usually quiet. my thoughts are contained in a hazy cloud, but the contents of that hazy cloud? words or imagery or fireworks, I don't know.

    I pick up on things quickly but most of what I've observed and/or learned is tucked away in the back of my mind until it's relevant to the current situation, but there's still no guarantee that I'll be able to access that information. ask me the same question in two different situations and you might get two wildly different responses, ranging anywhere between, "I don't know?" to [insert lengthy, well thought-out response here, in paragraph format ft. graphs and a list of sources and a picture of a dog because why not?] tl;dr I have relatively strong fluid intelligence and relatively weak crystallized intelligence.
    Last edited by wasp; 07-11-2017 at 03:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Ah which part of it was hardest to tune into? I'm really curious about this Btw I could've organized the description in that post better... I rewrote the first version of that post but then didn't have time to fix it all up after the rewrite. Sorry if that made it harder to follow it.

    As for the visual-spatial thinking... I noticed in articles several things are often grouped into the idea of visual/spatial thinking. Tbh mine is way more spatial than visual, though ofc it has to have some visual details, those are in some holistic visuals of objects/situations. That quick visual picture of them that I mentioned, I pick up the logical relations from it mostly. It's the same as when I look around in the surroundings, just done mentally. I guess the other thinking process that's not visual at all still works with similar logical information, just more abstractly.

    I don't think that distinction about concrete vs abstract thinking works as is. For me it depends on the type of topic whether I do concrete or abstract thinking... for example, for maths related stuff I definitely do abstract thinking easily, and for emotional topics I struggle with abstraction of the feelings and people related stuff. That's where I might have some issue following your explanations.

    That test you linked I found very easy, so if that's abstract reasoning then I definitely have it.

    I guess my nonvisual thinking process I described is also abstract thinking.

    Heh I tried this now. Had no problem carrying the drink without spilling it, actually I paid zero extra attention to it and it was still fine. With moving around objects, I did have to reach out with my arms sometimes to be sure I don't take the wrong angle for picking the route in the rooms when going around/amongst many objects. I didn't explicitly visualize anything at all. (Perhaps very quick flashes of the holistic pictures here and there but without me paying attention, more automatic.) I just had spatial "feelings" and "feelings" of distance as normal, but it was not 100% precise/reliable or I wouldn't have felt the need to reach out with arms at times. Still pretty good. I don't see the need to count and memorize steps, I can just "feel" the distance being taken (though not 100% precise as I said).

    Ah, we are complete opposites here.

    Yah that's weird to me. I'm pretty in the moment but I do not have a problem with felt sense of time. What's their sociotype btw? Out of curiosity.

    Yep I'm like this too, got a pretty good idea of when something happened and remember my childhood etc well. I didn't get your last sentence though about shifting points and ages. I don't think I have that part

    That's cool, mind me asking what helped the most? EDIT: I realize this is off topic, but if you do want to reply, I'd be very glad to hear about it in PM or in another thread

    I can imagine that helping with grounding from too much emotionality...?
    I think the trouble I had following the description of your processes is because it kind of read as a technical manual that I was unfamiliar with. It took me a couple days to assimilate what you were describing, as it didn't evoke any feelings or images in my mind. So yeah, it sounded very "technical" at first. You repeated the words "logical" and "visual/spatial" a few times but I was not quite sure what that looked like from your perspective. I couldn't put myself inside you mind. I didn't have a problem following your response here though.

    I could relate to this bit pretty well.

    Ah and then I sometimes have some abstract spatials that are just shapes/colours to illustrate more abstract concepts. They are lovely in their abstractness.
    You also mentioned music. I hear music in my head all the time. Music I don't remember hearing before, irl. I see great works of art in my mind too. I often feel like my creativity is trapped inside myself because I was not born with the talent to put this music or art into the real world. I feel I have lifetimes of talents that lay dormant inside me that will never be tapped. I have reluctantly accepted this is my life now. When people tell me I am creative or talented in other areas it kind of makes it a bit better but I can't forget what is trapped inside me. Just not meant to be, I guess. :/

    Cool that you did the exercise. I found it very interesting that I was able to do it but like I said I had some practice because of eye allergies. It is not something I would want to repeat because I had to focus the whole time. I knew I could not allow my mind to wander or I would end up hurt. lol It took a lot of energy.

    Re: the self inflicted damage, I would say I used nutrition, meditation, introspection, brain games and sleep to help me form new neural pathways.

    And yeah I think the counting helped with emotional grounding. When my emotions were too intense I would turn to counting just about everything. It started in groups of 3s, later in groups of 6s then back to 3s. Eventually I would just count until I was exhausted. The circumstances surrounding that behavior are not something most people will find themselves dealing with so I didn't have anyone to talk to that could understand. It gave me a sense of control but through CBT, and other types of therapy, I learned other ways of coping with that bad situation. I do not have any OCD type behaviors currently. I was pretty young then.

    I found another quiz. It is nothing special but I took it anyway.

    Types of Thinking Test: Concrete, Analytical, Abstract, Logical, Imaginative, Creative


    Here is how much you scored for every type:

    Doer: 38%
    Analyst: 50%
    Orator: 50%
    Inventor: 88%
    Original Thinker: 50%

    For more details see the blue box below.

    The Doer: Concrete Thinking
    You tend to think in practical, actionable terms. Craftsmen, sportsmen and anyone who produces anything tangible need this type of thinking. Doers contribute to the world by bringing thoughts and ideas together and making them a reality.

    The Analyst: Analytical and Abstract Thinking
    You tend to think in abstract terms. This type of thinking is important for mathematicians, economists, programmers, scientists and, obviously, analysts. These people are able to process information in the form of codes and complex symbols — something you can’t see or touch. Many scientific discoveries were possible because of this ability.

    The Orator: Logical Thinking
    You tend to think in terms of words and logic. Good writers, journalists, translators and teachers typically belong to this type. Orators are able to form ideas and then deliver these ideas to others in a clear and logical format. This ability is especially important for leaders, politicians and activists.

    The Inventor: Imaginative Thinking
    You tend to think in terms of pictures. People who belong to this type have a rich imagination that allows them to imagine things they haven’t seen — either because it’s something from the past or because it’s something that never existed — and express it in their work. Successful architects, designers, artists and screenwriters usually belong to this type.

    The Original Thinker: Creative Thinking
    You have a rare and valuable ability to think creatively. Creative thinking is an ability to look at problems and situations from an uncommon perspective and find unusual and often surprising solutions. Creative thinking is a rare skill and is needed in all types of work.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    ^ @Myst does Causal Determinism. Easy to follow and I could possibly interject something in like good supervisor.
    Vortical Synergetics – ESE process where they come up all that emotionalism that is geared towards everyday aspects is out of my reach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    ^ @Myst does Causal Determinism. Easy to follow and I could possibly interject something in like good supervisor.
    Vortical Synergetics – ESE process where they come up all that emotionalism that is geared towards everyday aspects is out of my reach.
    I didn't realize that ESE also had VS. That is interesting since I have no trouble following my ESE sister at all. She just rambles too many uninteresting details for my taste so I have learned ways to cut it short without hurting her feelings. Sometimes I do have trouble reading you too but I attributed that to English not being your first language. If it is I apologize.

    I don't have any problem following my EII sister's train of thought either. Please interject it might be useful?

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    LSI is very A->B->C

    I'm not extremely A->B->C. I tend to think you can break those deterministic chains into new ones. I must take my hat off for certain LSIs. They are very good at following their reason to the end even if it is narrow. I tend to end up in paradoxes.
    SEEs are also very deterministic. They sometimes advise me to take actions [concrete objects] determined outcome in their mind.
    EIIs? Sometimes causal links hurts your idealism [I get this] and you might see certain causes as good or bad and you want to diverge from there by generating your own chain. Maybe this is similar why I don't like to follow only one thread of reason.

    My Quasi-Identical: LIE. What to say? They describe their observations and it is easy to continue from there.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    LSI is very A->B->C

    I'm not extremely A->B->C. I tend to think you can break those deterministic chains into new ones. I must take my hat off for certain LSIs. They are very good at following their reason to the end even if it is narrow. I tend to end up in paradoxes.
    SEEs are also very deterministic. They sometimes advise me to take actions [concrete objects] determined outcome in their mind.
    EIIs? Sometimes causal links hurts your idealism [I get this] and you might see certain causes as good or bad and you want to diverge from there by generating your own chain. Maybe this is similar why I don't like to follow only one thread of reason.
    Surely you can see other types as deterministic as SEE or EII?

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    SEE pushes his/her straight forward action [usually involves concrete objects]. EIIs are pretty much all about causality and can not get it together but they'll show similar reasoning when their head is not clouded . It can be extremely blunt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    LSI is very A->B->C

    I'm not extremely A->B->C. I tend to think you can break those deterministic chains into new ones. I must take my hat off for certain LSIs. They are very good at following their reason to the end even if it is narrow. I tend to end up in paradoxes.
    SEEs are also very deterministic. They sometimes advise me to take actions [concrete objects] determined outcome in their mind.
    EIIs? Sometimes causal links hurts your idealism [I get this] and you might see certain causes as good or bad and you want to diverge from there by generating your own chain. Maybe this is similar why I don't like to follow only one thread of reason.

    My Quasi-Identical: LIE. What to say? They describe their observations and it is easy to continue from there.
    Well, that is interesting since I just realized you consider me your supervisor for some reason. I missed that the first time as it had no connection to my reality. lol Anyway I suppose I can't relate as I have seen myself supervising my ESE sister almost by the socionics bible. I have never felt supervised by a SEE. I do not get any sense of supervising you specifically either. Maybe I teased you a bit too much? There have been 2 people I actually felt supervised by on this forum and that is Ashton and Narc. It was pretty obvious what was going on when you put it in a socionics framework. I actually found ways to ease the initial tension and dismissal I felt from both of them. I find it easy to talk with both when we stick to topics of mutual interest. Same with my sister.

    If you would like to point out times you felt supervised by me, show me. I might learn something new.

    Also how is it you think I use CD cognition?

    This is the form of cognition I related to least. It is like a foreign language to me but maybe you can show me the connection you made? Is it because I use "causal conjunctions" sometimes? I don't think that would be a valid way to determine cognition.

     

    Causal-Determinist Cognition


    Let us now examine the first cognitive form: It is analytic, positive, and deductive. We will call this style Causal-Determinist. Its carriers are Sociotypes ILE, LSI, SEE, EII (ENTp, ISTj, ESFp, INFj, respectively)


    As Statics, their cognitive activity is stable and clear. As Evolutionary types, they think procedurally without overlooking parts and intermediate details. As Positivists, they aim towards singularly valid solutions.


    Intellectual Sphere


    Causal-Determinist cognition is known under synonymous names as formal logic or deterministic thinking, both of which emphasize its rigid nature. Speech in this cognitive style takes shape with aid of the connectives "because", "therefore", "consequently" (causal conjunctions). The mental process consists in constructing chains of cause and effect, reducing explanations to deterministic mechanisms. Using the example of Aristotle, who first pointed out four ways to explain phenomena, the reason for the existence of a sculpture is the sculptor who fashioned it directly.


    In the scientific sphere so thinks ILE, in the managerial-administrative sphere is methodical LSI, in the social sphere SEE calculates chains of material interests, in the humanitarian sphere subject to the same categorical imperative is EII.


    Social Sphere


    Aristotle is considered the discoverer of this approach. The basic laws of formal thinking are outlined in his theory of syllogism. However, the first to consistently put them into practice was Euclid, founder of geometry. More recently, its principles grounded rationalist Rene Descartes in his 1637 treatise "Discourse on the Method". Then it finally took shape in mathematical logic. The Causal-Determinist paradigm reached its apogee in Logical Positivism, then increasingly began to decline in value towards the end of the 20th century. However, as the common stereotype of proof, it still dominates to this day.


    I will touch its advantages. First, it is perceived by society as the most authoritative, most convincing, and singularly correct. In mathematics, it is formalized as the deductive-axiomatic method. Use of it requires great intellectual stamina. Second, attributes of greater clarity and concentration are inherent to this style. The type most characterized by singular concentration is LSI. However, the irrational SEE argues quite soundly, deriving one consequence from another, implying focus on the chain of events. If even one link fails for any reason, then Determinists lose their sense of rationale and find it difficult to act because they see no reason to.


    At the same time, Causal-Determinism has its drawbacks. It is primarily the most artificial and removed from the laws of functioning life. Its efficacy extends to the 'logical' formulation of already existing results, the construction of operating mechanisms, but not fundamentally new discoveries. The first dead end which formalization risks is scholasticism, i.e. pointless albeit logically impeccable reasoning. The second intellectual dead end faced by sequential Determinists is the trap of reductionism, which they fall into on account of fragmenting wholes into their component parts. This deficiency was noted even by the ancient skeptics, as well as in modern times by Hume, who doubted that any event could be dictated by strict reason.


    Indeed, in building a long chain of cause and effect, it is difficult to avoid the danger of circularity, the risk of falling into circulus vitiosus—a vicious circle in the proof. Kurt Gödel's theorem on the incompleteness of formal systems, asserts that any sufficiently complex system of rules is either inconsistent, or contains conclusions that can be neither proven nor refuted by the rules of that system. This established limits in the applicability of formal logic. Using the deductive-axiomatic method, the medieval Scholastics in particular, attempted to rigorously prove the existence of God. Resulting from closure of causes in terms of effects, they circularly arrived at a definition of God as the thought which thinks of itself.


    Psychological Sphere


    Causal-Determinist cognition forges a mentality poorly protected from indoctrination, or in extreme cases, even brainwashing. By skillfully combining memorable words and actions, it is possible to gain control over the behavior of specific individuals. Intelligent Determinists in particular, are characterized by a strong dependence on the events of childhood, which Sigmund Freud discovered in his time, though poorly understood in full. Habits in pronounced Determinists are comparable in their rigidity to conditioned reflexes.


    Standard military interrogation procedures are designed to ensure guaranteed cause-effect impacts upon the psyche. It includes measures of exposure such as sleep deprivation, changes in room temperature and/or humidity, denial of food subsequently followed by its delivery as a reward, etc. Isolation of the detainee and the gradual imposition of regulations, bears fruit sooner or later. In time, the vulnerability of psychological destabilization is manufactured into dependence upon the interrogator.


    It is noteworthy that extreme critical situations, trigger a 'slow-motion film' state of mind in Determinists. Thinking becomes particularly clear, but stretched out over time, such that seconds can subjectively feel like minutes. Along these same lines, due to an abrupt shakeup of their psyche, the stress of surprise severely impedes their cerebral activity until they can recover in deep sleep.


    The psychological school of Behaviorism represents this model of the psyche. Its supporters believe that behavioral learning is achieved through reinforcement—rewarding adherence to rules and punishing their violation. B. F. Skinner formulated the principle of operant conditioning, according to which the behavior of living organisms is completely determined by the cause-effect of this conditioning. He proposed the method of 'successive approximations', in which students receive positive reinforcement in instances where their behavior conforms to that desired.


    Behaviorists developed the concept of conditioned learning and established a rigid procedural method of action towards the goal as the basis for its operation.


    Scientific Sphere


    Formal logical thinking in its time gave birth to the deterministic cause-effect worldview. This is the worldview of classical physics whose cornerstone is Newtonian Mechanics, and was the dominant paradigm until the early 20th century. Rigid systems operate according to these rules—organisms and mechanisms. When faced with multi-factor processes (such as psychology or society), however, reductionism loses its explanatory power to portray complex phenomena in terms of their basic components. Additionally, this classic paradigm has been too influenced by the ideal of 'progress', in spite of numerous historical examples of regressive tendencies, setbacks, repetitions, etc.


    A real-life model of Causal-Determinist cognition is given by information represented in the form of a chart or realistic illustration made using a direct perspective. In this technique, objects are depicted larger or smaller in proportion to their distance from the observer. By drawing in this way, following strict instructions, any object can be easily depicted.
    Last edited by Aylen; 07-12-2017 at 05:40 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    @Aylen I don't consider you as my supervisor?
    You don't get under skin when I'm too logical. You are just bit illogical according to my standards but I don't consider it as bad. Actually just by making this supervision claim shows low CD. I'm not the authority to say what is right way to perceive things. I might be dead wrong.
    Maybe even if you are an EII (I doubt) it gets only worse on IRL where I might hammer in logic too much. As I said it is good that people focus on causes. Aren't you IEI?

    Better to get more perspective even from supervisor.


    Anyways the rule is: types in same supervision ring shares the same cognitive style:
    ILE-LSI-SEE-EII - CD
    LII-SLE-ESI-IEE - HP
    ESE-IEI-LIE-SLI - VS
    SEI-EIE-ILI-LSE - DA

    Socionics... There's no method to measure type.

    If you want to learn how to think like CD take a look at axioms made by Euclid. You can reason just using your words what constitutes a line (two separate points in space) and what happens when you put third separate one in there etc. It takes a lot of mental effort...

    If you want to look for some pretty good CD material in typology I think this channel is pretty great (LSI). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqb...MUktPJkZllDanQ
    Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 07-12-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    @Aylen I don't consider you as my supervisor?
    You don't get under skin when I'm too logical. You are just bit illogical according to my standards but I don't consider it as bad. I'm not the authority to say what is right way to perceive things. I might be dead wrong.
    Maybe even if you are an EII (I doubt) it gets only worse on IRL where I might hammer in logic too much. As I said it is good that people focus on causes.

    Better to get more perspective even from supervisor.


    Anyways the rule is: types in same supervision ring shares the same cognitive style:
    ILE-LSI-SEE-EII - CD
    LII-SLE-ESI-IEE - HP
    ESE-IEI-LIE-SLI - VS
    SEI-EIE-ILI-LSE - DA

    Socionics... There's no method to measure type.
    Oops I guess I thought by "your" you meant me. I was taking a lot of things too personal lately. Don't mind me. Last day I will be moody for awhile.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Here is how much you scored for every type:

    Doer: 50%
    Analyst: 100%
    Orator: 50%
    Inventor: 88%
    Original Thinker: 63%

    For more details see the blue box below.

    The Doer: Concrete Thinking
    You tend to thinks in practical, actionable terms. Craftsmen, sportsmen and anyone who produces anything tangible need this type of thinking. Doers contribute to the world by bringing thoughts and ideas together and making them a reality.The Analyst: Analytical and Abstract Thinking
    You tend to think in abstract terms. This type of thinking is important for mathematicians, economists, programmers, scientists and, obviously, analysts. These people are able to process information in the form of codes and complex symbols — something you can’t see or touch. Many scientific discoveries were possible because of this ability.
    The Orator: Logical Thinking
    You tend to think in terms of words and logic. Good writers, journalists, translators and teachers typically belong to this type. Orators are able to form ideas and then deliver these ideas to others in a clear and logical format. This ability is especially important for leaders, politicians and activists.
    The Inventor: Imaginative Thinking
    You tend to think in terms of pictures. People who belong to this type have a rich imagination that allows them to imagine things they haven’t seen — either because it’s something from the past or because it’s something that never existed — and express it in their work. Successful architects, designers, artists and screenwriters usually belong to this type.
    The Original Thinker: Creative Thinking
    You have a rare and valuable ability to think creatively. Creative thinking is an ability to look at problems and situations from an uncommon perspective and find unusual and often surprising solutions. Creative thinking is a rare skill and is needed in all types of work.

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    I tend to think in visuals, but not always of "real" objects or anything that could be entirely represented in 3D or perhaps even 4D. Even here trying to explain it is hard. Does "abstract visuals" make sense?


    (I didn't read the whole thread.)
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I tend to think in visuals, but not always of "real" objects or anything that could be entirely represented in 3D or perhaps even 4D. Even here trying to explain it is hard. Does "abstract visuals" make sense?


    (I didn't read the whole thread.)
    This is the kind of "normal" thinking that always gets left off of these typological-type things. As soon as you suggest there are certain ways to think to people, people only think in those and you get confirmation bias. Otherwise, you have people thinking in abstract visuals and music and lots of other things. It's like some sort of Forer effect (I think the vast majority of people change their thinking in accordance with the task at hand, the autistic people and people with aphantasia and things like that being very, very weird, but that should also be obvious) except it limits what people know about thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    This is the kind of "normal" thinking that always gets left off of these typological-type things. As soon as you suggest there are certain ways to think to people, people only think in those and you get confirmation bias. Otherwise, you have people thinking in abstract visuals and music and lots of other things. It's like some sort of Forer effect (I think the vast majority of people change their thinking in accordance with the task at hand, the autistic people and people with aphantasia and things like that being very, very weird, but that should also be obvious) except it limits what people know about thinking.
    I think you are commenting from your ivory tower, thinking you are above it all, as usual. It seems like it makes you feel better in some way to sit back and criticize others, without sharing anything about your own processes. This is why some people consider you a pretentious snob. I don't think that is all you are but you sure make it hard to see anything else. You have yet to explain your own thinking. You described something but you might as well have read it somewhere. I am not surprised since you claim to hold no beliefs which only confirms for me that you lack self awareness or are in denial.

    p.s. Guess it wasn't my last day of moodiness.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    I find these "thought process" discussions to be a bit confusing to be honest. In my case I'm pretty much always imagining myself doing something awesome and extraordinary, with sometimes hearing voices of myself or other people I know. Why would I care too think about anything else?

    Results on that test:

    Doer: 50%
    Analyst: 25%
    Orator: 13%
    Inventor: 75%
    Original Thinker: 50%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I think the trouble I had following the description of your processes is because it kind of read as a technical manual that I was unfamiliar with. It took me a couple days to assimilate what you were describing, as it didn't evoke any feelings or images in my mind. So yeah, it sounded very "technical" at first.
    Ah wow days, you could have talked to me about it, if you wanted to But yeah lol I'm too technical sometimes


    You repeated the words "logical" and "visual/spatial" a few times but I was not quite sure what that looked like from your perspective. I couldn't put myself inside you mind.
    Hmm, well, when squark linked this article, the example sentence for low imagery sentences was "Addition, subtraction and multiplication are all math skills". That had the nonvisual part of the logical process active for comprehending it. What does it look like for you with that sentence?

    For the visual-spatial part, think of a map for navigation.

    Does this help?


    I didn't have a problem following your response here though.

    I could relate to this bit pretty well.
    To the bit on the abstract spatials? What are they like for you?


    You also mentioned music. I hear music in my head all the time. Music I don't remember hearing before, irl. I see great works of art in my mind too. I often feel like my creativity is trapped inside myself because I was not born with the talent to put this music or art into the real world. I feel I have lifetimes of talents that lay dormant inside me that will never be tapped. I have reluctantly accepted this is my life now. When people tell me I am creative or talented in other areas it kind of makes it a bit better but I can't forget what is trapped inside me. Just not meant to be, I guess. :/
    Yes, pieces of music are trapped inside me too, I know the feeling.


    Cool that you did the exercise. I found it very interesting that I was able to do it but like I said I had some practice because of eye allergies. It is not something I would want to repeat because I had to focus the whole time. I knew I could not allow my mind to wander or I would end up hurt. lol It took a lot of energy.

    Re: the self inflicted damage, I would say I used nutrition, meditation, introspection, brain games and sleep to help me form new neural pathways.
    What kind of brain games?


    I found another quiz. It is nothing special but I took it anyway.

    Types of Thinking Test: Concrete, Analytical, Abstract, Logical, Imaginative, Creative
    For me opposite of you

    Doer: 75%
    Analyst: 63%
    Orator: 50%
    Inventor: 13%
    Original Thinker: 38%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I tend to think in visuals, but not always of "real" objects or anything that could be entirely represented in 3D or perhaps even 4D. Even here trying to explain it is hard. Does "abstract visuals" make sense?

    (I didn't read the whole thread.)
    I mentioned abstract visuals, @Aylen did too. What are yours like if you can try and illustrate it in some way? Mine btw can be 2D, 3D too, idk about 4D, maybe sometimes


    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    SEE pushes his/her straight forward action [usually involves concrete objects].
    I do that too, and I'm sure many other people too. Don't see it as SEE specific or even as C-D thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    This is the kind of "normal" thinking that always gets left off of these typological-type things. As soon as you suggest there are certain ways to think to people, people only think in those and you get confirmation bias. Otherwise, you have people thinking in abstract visuals and music and lots of other things. It's like some sort of Forer effect (I think the vast majority of people change their thinking in accordance with the task at hand, the autistic people and people with aphantasia and things like that being very, very weird, but that should also be obvious) except it limits what people know about thinking.
    I'm not convinced that Forer is the explanation for everything . That would be too simple.

    Can you describe your thinking more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I mentioned abstract visuals, @Aylen did too. What are yours like if you can try and illustrate it in some way? Mine btw can be 2D, 3D too, idk about 4D, maybe sometimes


    Occasionally I can literally illustrate (via painting or other graphics) a distillation of the visuals. The only one I have at hand that best works for this topic is this one:

    18_150908-1_002.png

    This one is more artistic and specific to a particular internal piece of me at a particular time. But when I focused on what I was feeling, why, and the metaphors around it, this is close-ish to what was in my head. If you can imaginatively add a sort of pulsing, you'll be even closer.

    I do other paintings, too, but they are usually not as direct translations of my raw thinking.


    The thing about ideas is, in my head, they move. They are not static. My concept of the universe is always in a sort of sloshy flux, if not actual growth and adaptation. Thus 4D, time, movement. "Facts" are objects and I move among them. But in a non-concrete way. Any particular point may or may not be reliable, so the gestalt is what I operate from.

    I'll see if I can come up with another illustration later.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post


    Occasionally I can literally illustrate (via painting or other graphics) a distillation of the visuals. The only one I have at hand that best works for this topic is this one:
    What internal piece is it illustrating?


    I'll see if I can come up with another illustration later.
    OK.

    Btw mine aren't like this, mine are more spatial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I'm not convinced that Forer is the explanation for everything . That would be too simple.

    Can you describe your thinking more?
    Well, I think people think lots of different ways depending on the task and then there's state-dependent memory that leaves out ways that don't happen to be described, so not just Forer effect but that's part of it since people are sure to think in one recognized way, then leave out the ways that aren't. I tend to think a few ways at once and I tend to think that's pretty normal due to how many people put both visual and auditory on polls. For example, if I'm going somewhere, I'll just visualize the actual space around me like some sort of Google Earth or something. I'll also think about where I'm going, how long it'll take to get there, and basically just zoom around different times and places on the trajectory. I pretty much never get lost even if I'm going new places without a map because of that.

    I'll also talk to myself in my head basically all the time, although often I'll switch that with music, poetry, or writing a story of what's going on instead of just the sort of typical dialogue most people think of because that can be more entertaining and productive. I'm sure the worst kind of thing I've ever done is just semi-fictionalize something that seems sort of interesting but not interesting enough so I can go write it down as a story later, since I think getting inspiration from thin air never works very well. For example, a while back I was looking at Half Price Books because I like looking for old, uncommon, and weird books you don't see at places like Barnes and Noble. There was some cool hardcover collection of Schiller that was over 100 years old and veeery nice condition (not new, but it clearly wasn't someone's school books with writing or anything, which is always remarkable) that they couldn't sell because most Americans don't want foreign books. It was certainly very, very underpriced considering what I've seen similar collections sell for through people who know how to properly price antique books (including foreign ones) and who are looking for them (I've seen Marcus Aurelius in German for about $50 once, why). I thought it was sad and somewhat unusual that no one would want books like that, although I was also happy no one bought them first, and the path from the store was very boring and ugly so I just ended up making an entire narrative where my buying the books would be an instance of a normal occurrence rather than just my personal hobby of trying to build some sort of cool library a little bit at a time.

    It ended up going like "well, German would have to be a commonly-spoken language in America, and people would have to want to read classics more than they do now" which ended up turning into some Philip K. Dick-esque version of my boring journey where the two World Wars didn't happen (in order to keep German in America and also make the culture more intellectually conservative in order to read classics more) but one was about to happen now instead, and after demarcating all the exact physical areas of the town where different languages, cultures, and classes would live and what kinds of events were presently happening, I ended up being caught between trying to figure out whether I should be concerned if it was going to rain on my cool books before I got them indoors, or if it's unlikely and I should spend more time thinking about whether the delayed-Great War would have a looming nuclear threat so I could write an actual story of this.

    I tend to want to describe that kind of thing as "dialectical-algorithmic" regardless of any sort of socionics theory or whatever due to the fact that the whole process revolved around an interaction between close observations of what was actually happening and the hypothetical parts that came in over time just as a result of wondering what it would take for people to commonly want to buy books like that in the present (a teleological goal) that just ended up with a completely abstract "stream" (the alternate history stuff) and the end result of a narrative of my journey with actual details from what was going on (which I'm sure is cheating, but great artists steal and all that), ways that relates to the alternate history stuff, and yet another boring Erlkönig parody for good measure when I finally arrived with the books intact. Making up stories to match up with real life when I'm bored enough is sort of a silly example, but I think the processes reveal enough and half the people here are bragging about how much they daydream and don't even try to write stories or use it in other productive ways anyways. In one of the discords here a long time ago, I said for a long time I thought nothing was real except that it was a symbol for something else, and this process of interpreting observed reality in terms of other ideas (even if they're not really intended to be explanations or particularly meaningful) relates to that pretty obviously.

    And when I say I don't think people generally have just one way of thinking, I mentioned this before (not here though) that if I want to write the actual words to something like this (although this kind of thing especially applies to things like poetry and lyrics that I tend to do nothing with), I'll think about that in an entirely different way. You have to think about how words sound, how the flow of them relates to the actual flow of events through time, any possible double meanings or ambiguities, and ways things reference things that've been referenced earlier, will be referenced later, or are just outside of it (allusion). That itself reminds me of playing an instrument, but it doesn't remind me of computers or fluid dynamics or any of the more popular cognitive metaphors at all. I don't even want to use something concrete as a metaphor for the mind or soul, and I'll generally just use light when I do think about that. That seems to be the oldest comparison based on everything I've read, but not popular at all because it's not concrete and people want these metaphors to make it concrete.

    I also say I don't believe anything based on my definition because belief systems seem to me like ways to try to make things in the objective world absolute and orient yourself relatively to them. I find it works better for me when nothing objective is absolute, but the subject is instead (objective = object/acted upon, subject = agent/actor), because you're the agent deciding what to believe if you want an absolute belief in the first place, but you can and do change it yourself as well, so that's a contradiction and therefore untrue. Doing that seems like flying into the Sun though because it seems pretty absolutely true but also like you're going to pay by destroying everything conceptually around your subjectivity/agenthood. It's like the primal chaos that things arise from and like what the infamous incompleteness theorem is trying to describe to me. I've said "I don't have beliefs, I have heuristics" a long time ago and that's what that kind of reasoning is, some sort of taking truths as expedient just reflexively based on experience, although if you want to call that a belief that's just semantics as long as you understand where I'm coming from (I'm not sure anyone does).

    I hope this isn't the new most incomprehensible thing I've ever posted here after some of the other ones that no one's read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Well, I think people think lots of different ways depending on the task and then there's state-dependent memory that leaves out ways that don't happen to be described, so not just Forer effect but that's part of it since people are sure to think in one recognized way, then leave out the ways that aren't. I tend to think a few ways at once and I tend to think that's pretty normal due to how many people put both visual and auditory on polls. For example, if I'm going somewhere, I'll just visualize the actual space around me like some sort of Google Earth or something. I'll also think about where I'm going, how long it'll take to get there, and basically just zoom around different times and places on the trajectory. I pretty much never get lost even if I'm going new places without a map because of that.

    I'll also talk to myself in my head basically all the time, although often I'll switch that with music, poetry, or writing a story of what's going on instead of just the sort of typical dialogue most people think of because that can be more entertaining and productive. I'm sure the worst kind of thing I've ever done is just semi-fictionalize something that seems sort of interesting but not interesting enough so I can go write it down as a story later, since I think getting inspiration from thin air never works very well. For example, a while back I was looking at Half Price Books because I like looking for old, uncommon, and weird books you don't see at places like Barnes and Noble. There was some cool hardcover collection of Schiller that was over 100 years old and veeery nice condition (not new, but it clearly wasn't someone's school books with writing or anything, which is always remarkable) that they couldn't sell because most Americans don't want foreign books. It was certainly very, very underpriced considering what I've seen similar collections sell for through people who know how to properly price antique books (including foreign ones) and who are looking for them (I've seen Marcus Aurelius in German for about $50 once, why). I thought it was sad and somewhat unusual that no one would want books like that, although I was also happy no one bought them first, and the path from the store was very boring and ugly so I just ended up making an entire narrative where my buying the books would be an instance of a normal occurrence rather than just my personal hobby of trying to build some sort of cool library a little bit at a time.

    It ended up going like "well, German would have to be a commonly-spoken language in America, and people would have to want to read classics more than they do now" which ended up turning into some Philip K. Dick-esque version of my boring journey where the two World Wars didn't happen (in order to keep German in America and also make the culture more intellectually conservative in order to read classics more) but one was about to happen now instead, and after demarcating all the exact physical areas of the town where different languages, cultures, and classes would live and what kinds of events were presently happening, I ended up being caught between trying to figure out whether I should be concerned if it was going to rain on my cool books before I got them indoors, or if it's unlikely and I should spend more time thinking about whether the delayed-Great War would have a looming nuclear threat so I could write an actual story of this.

    I tend to want to describe that kind of thing as "dialectical-algorithmic" regardless of any sort of socionics theory or whatever due to the fact that the whole process revolved around an interaction between close observations of what was actually happening and the hypothetical parts that came in over time just as a result of wondering what it would take for people to commonly want to buy books like that in the present (a teleological goal) that just ended up with a completely abstract "stream" (the alternate history stuff) and the end result of a narrative of my journey with actual details from what was going on (which I'm sure is cheating, but great artists steal and all that), ways that relates to the alternate history stuff, and yet another boring Erlkönig parody for good measure when I finally arrived with the books intact. Making up stories to match up with real life when I'm bored enough is sort of a silly example, but I think the processes reveal enough and half the people here are bragging about how much they daydream and don't even try to write stories or use it in other productive ways anyways. In one of the discords here a long time ago, I said for a long time I thought nothing was real except that it was a symbol for something else, and this process of interpreting observed reality in terms of other ideas (even if they're not really intended to be explanations or particularly meaningful) relates to that pretty obviously.

    And when I say I don't think people generally have just one way of thinking, I mentioned this before (not here though) that if I want to write the actual words to something like this (although this kind of thing especially applies to things like poetry and lyrics that I tend to do nothing with), I'll think about that in an entirely different way. You have to think about how words sound, how the flow of them relates to the actual flow of events through time, any possible double meanings or ambiguities, and ways things reference things that've been referenced earlier, will be referenced later, or are just outside of it (allusion). That itself reminds me of playing an instrument, but it doesn't remind me of computers or fluid dynamics or any of the more popular cognitive metaphors at all. I don't even want to use something concrete as a metaphor for the mind or soul, and I'll generally just use light when I do think about that. That seems to be the oldest comparison based on everything I've read, but not popular at all because it's not concrete and people want these metaphors to make it concrete.

    I also say I don't believe anything based on my definition because belief systems seem to me like ways to try to make things in the objective world absolute and orient yourself relatively to them. I find it works better for me when nothing objective is absolute, but the subject is instead (objective = object/acted upon, subject = agent/actor), because you're the agent deciding what to believe if you want an absolute belief in the first place, but you can and do change it yourself as well, so that's a contradiction and therefore untrue. Doing that seems like flying into the Sun though because it seems pretty absolutely true but also like you're going to pay by destroying everything conceptually around your subjectivity/agenthood. It's like the primal chaos that things arise from and like what the infamous incompleteness theorem is trying to describe to me. I've said "I don't have beliefs, I have heuristics" a long time ago and that's what that kind of reasoning is, some sort of taking truths as expedient just reflexively based on experience, although if you want to call that a belief that's just semantics as long as you understand where I'm coming from (I'm not sure anyone does).

    I hope this isn't the new most incomprehensible thing I've ever posted here after some of the other ones that no one's read.
    I am out of time right now, so will have to come back - but I also create stories out of things, and well I've never quite grown up so I also still pretend myself in various situations to make things more interesting. I might imagine I'm a spy on a mission, or in hiding, and act accordingly. Wish I had more time right now. Here's another thread where people describe their thought processes, well, here's my post from that thread
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post921595

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    I don't see how this can be separate. When I think I think in both images and words, my thoughts are a neverending movie that happens in my mind. I usually get to occupied by this that I totally lose track of what is actually happening around me. I can create a whole film in my mind and then just watch it happen like it's real, usually it's far more satisfying than the reality around me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I suck with time however, and often jumble things up in time not knowing which came first. I'll relate things together, but the sequence may be entirely off - so Pookie's description is almost opposite from how my mind works. I tend to see things in stills rather than moving pictures, like freezing it in order to mentally look/walk around the scene, but time is all stacked on top of each other. I might not know whether something happened two weeks ago or three days ago or over a month ago without really thinking about it and relating it to other things, or whether something that happened two days ago happened before or after something that happened four days ago without using other tools to sort it out. Things don't just naturally sequence themselves for me the way he described happening for him.

    Edit to add: The spatial vs temporal distinction is the difference between static and dynamic in socionics.
    Static stills when it comes to trying to see timelines?

    At other times you then have the video as you described in the other post of yours that you've linked now?

    Quoting from it: "I think with "pictures" when I'm remembering something, and so recall the video of it"
    "Sometimes I'll look at things and imagine them being made, and that is without words. For instance, I looked away from the computer and noticed the baseboard, and "saw" it being nailed on, the top edge being caulked, etc. or I'll "see" a house being stuccoed, or framed, decorative trim being applied, concrete being smoothed, grass being mowed."
    Last edited by Myst; 07-14-2017 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Well, I think people think lots of different ways depending on the task and then there's state-dependent memory that leaves out ways that don't happen to be described, so not just Forer effect but that's part of it since people are sure to think in one recognized way, then leave out the ways that aren't. I tend to think a few ways at once and I tend to think that's pretty normal due to how many people put both visual and auditory on polls. For example, if I'm going somewhere, I'll just visualize the actual space around me like some sort of Google Earth or something. I'll also think about where I'm going, how long it'll take to get there, and basically just zoom around different times and places on the trajectory. I pretty much never get lost even if I'm going new places without a map because of that.
    I tried to describe all ways of thinking that I noticed that I could recall. That doesn't mean I have all possible ways of thinking, like, @Aylen etc. think in ways I don't.


    Making up stories to match up with real life when I'm bored enough is sort of a silly example, but I think the processes reveal enough and half the people here are bragging about how much they daydream and don't even try to write stories or use it in other productive ways anyways. In one of the discords here a long time ago, I said for a long time I thought nothing was real except that it was a symbol for something else, and this process of interpreting observed reality in terms of other ideas (even if they're not really intended to be explanations or particularly meaningful) relates to that pretty obviously.
    You do have nice imagination I guess. I can only brag about not doing any daydreaming lol. (I wrote stories a long time ago though.)

    Only symbols for something else... at the end of that line of symbols there'll be a reality


    And when I say I don't think people generally have just one way of thinking, I mentioned this before (not here though) that if I want to write the actual words to something like this (although this kind of thing especially applies to things like poetry and lyrics that I tend to do nothing with), I'll think about that in an entirely different way. You have to think about how words sound, how the flow of them relates to the actual flow of events through time, any possible double meanings or ambiguities, and ways things reference things that've been referenced earlier, will be referenced later, or are just outside of it (allusion). That itself reminds me of playing an instrument, but it doesn't remind me of computers or fluid dynamics or any of the more popular cognitive metaphors at all. I don't even want to use something concrete as a metaphor for the mind or soul, and I'll generally just use light when I do think about that. That seems to be the oldest comparison based on everything I've read, but not popular at all because it's not concrete and people want these metaphors to make it concrete.
    Interesting. Btw, what you describe can probably be implemented in a computer too. Why not?

    (Theoretically, I mean, we will need to develop better understanding of stuff first before it can be done in practice.)


    I also say I don't believe anything based on my definition because belief systems seem to me like ways to try to make things in the objective world absolute and orient yourself relatively to them. I find it works better for me when nothing objective is absolute, but the subject is instead (objective = object/acted upon, subject = agent/actor), because you're the agent deciding what to believe if you want an absolute belief in the first place, but you can and do change it yourself as well, so that's a contradiction and therefore untrue. Doing that seems like flying into the Sun though because it seems pretty absolutely true but also like you're going to pay by destroying everything conceptually around your subjectivity/agenthood. It's like the primal chaos that things arise from and like what the infamous incompleteness theorem is trying to describe to me. I've said "I don't have beliefs, I have heuristics" a long time ago and that's what that kind of reasoning is, some sort of taking truths as expedient just reflexively based on experience, although if you want to call that a belief that's just semantics as long as you understand where I'm coming from (I'm not sure anyone does).
    You've just described your own belief.


    I hope this isn't the new most incomprehensible thing I've ever posted here after some of the other ones that no one's read.
    I read it.
    Last edited by Myst; 07-14-2017 at 03:25 PM.

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    @Myst Yeah, I don't mean all possible ways of thinking. Aylen's doesn't sound like it'd work very well with how I think since it seems vague to me. But I do think most people's are somewhat flexible depending on context and obviously not "just visual" or "just verbal" (but again, most polls also say that) and a lot also fall outside of what gets surveyed. And yes, you could try to run these kinds of thinking on a computer, but that narrows it down, like digital vs. analog. I think in analog I guess, and just don't want to think of it as a computer for Occam's Razor-type reasons It's like how trying to simulate a human voice on a digital computer tends to be weird, but then, you can do different things with digital instruments that gives them advantages.

    Yes, symbols have to stand for reality at some point, but where? Jung's "rationality" idea basically has all language as relative in the first place.


    And yes, I said on the belief thing, it depends on how you define belief. Usually, when I hear that word, it's taken to be some sort of Platonic absolute. I feel like describing this more since the last post was made at night and I was tired and went to sleep right after. I don't think absolutes like that apply to anything you can cleanly describe. I say science depends on Christianity at least historically, and this kind of thing explains why (even if quoting the Bible in most arguments tends to rank slightly above Germanic commas in tending to make you sound crazy or at least just ridiculous):

    1 Kings 19:11-12

    11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

    12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

    Plato was considered "the first Christian" because of viewing the material world as an imperfect representation of the spiritual world (the world spiritual also means something clear regarding Plato rather than meaning something like "pseudo-religious"). Science, mathematics, and most ideas of knowledge in general depend on having absolutes that are outside of the actual thing you're trying to analyze. If you take things like trees, or money, or status as absolute, whatever you know will revolve around that, so really knowing things depends on trying to put absolutes outside of basically everything. That sounds like a typical belief until you start really trying to describe it in-depth, then it sounds contradictory even if it's also clearly necessary on another level. It's sort of a different category and dynamic than taking a specific thing as absolute to begin with. The part where it's similar would be seeing things as "absolute" relative to other things, but as soon as I see a contradiction (a la Gödel's incompleteness theorem, no system can be all-comprehensive, and that's about as Platonic as it gets between mathematics = Platonism, yet you're taking the Absolute out of these representations) I'll drop it. Can you do this perfectly? Not really, but I still see it as better than pretending some arbitrary fixed thing can be some sort of Godly all-encompassing idea, like people do with materialism, dualism, capitalism, socialism, or whatever other -ism, so it's worth it to me even if it means admitting perpetual error. The alternative is engaging in one perpetual error, camping out there, and not admitting it, so that's obviously worse to me. Being able to go on this way is really, really closely linked with personal experiences and you can't get there just by thinking about it no matter how you think about it which is what makes it hard to go along with by typical modern standards. (@Aylen since you'll probably also want to read this)

    @squark You could try thinking of time as a some sort of wheel. I always do that, and I also often think of space as a wheel moving (which is the kind of thing I was thinking when I said the world was so small, you could drive around it in 2 1/2 weeks if it weren't for the oceans and other obstacles). For comparing things, I'll tend to have more than one lined up with each other, which is pretty reminiscent of astronomical clocks and solar system models, and really probably how people ended up with astrology as an idea in the first place. Time and space are always described in terms of each other, either front <-> back or up <-> down (the second is because of things falling, the first is obviously egocentric. If you add in gravity in the original as above, so below sense you can just have a field day with this because you have things moving around and forward because they fall down and ultimately towards the Sun). Static vs. dynamic are basically flipsides of the same coin, and I'm sure how I think is dynamic as it gets here. It's like a song: You think of the whole song at once, basically. It's not some linear XYZ perception of songs or you wouldn't be able to hear them coherently and there'd be no point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd
    Well, I think people think lots of different ways depending on the task and then there's state-dependent memory that leaves out ways that don't happen to be described, so not just Forer effect but that's part of it since people are sure to think in one recognized way, then leave out the ways that aren't.
    Yes. As can be seen in my post from 5 years ago, I mention video, and then describe in terms of stills here, so which is it? And the answer is of course both. And everyone else most likely thinks in both as well, and in many other different ways as well depending on what they're trying to do, but when you ask them to remember something, or they think of an instance, they'll think of what they did in that particular instance and extrapolate to the others.

    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd
    @squark You could try thinking of time as a some sort of wheel. I always do that, and I also often think of space as a wheel moving (which is the kind of thing I was thinking when I said the world was so small, you could drive around it in 2 1/2 weeks if it weren't for the oceans and other obstacles). For comparing things, I'll tend to have more than one lined up with each other, which is pretty reminiscent of astronomical clocks and solar system models, and really probably how people ended up with astrology as an idea in the first place. Time and space are always described in terms of each other, either front <-> back or up <-> down (the second is because of things falling, the first is obviously egocentric. If you add in gravity in the original as above, so below sense you can just have a field day with this because you have things moving around and forward because they fall down and ultimately towards the Sun). Static vs. dynamic are basically flipsides of the same coin, and I'm sure how I think is dynamic as it gets here. It's like a song: You think of the whole song at once, basically. It's not some linear XYZ perception of songs or you wouldn't be able to hear them coherently and there'd be no point.
    I often use space to figure out time. For example one benefit of moving so often is I could always think "where was I when this happened" for things farther back. For closer things I use a combination of where I was and what other things I was doing, since certain things happen on certain days, such as Tuesday is trash day, and the weekend stands out from the weekdays, and various other clues as to when something happened.

    It takes an effort to switch to a dynamic viewpoint though, and I'm more just thinking about it than thinking in it. I can picture it, that kind of constant motion like wheels turning, but it's a short-term frame of reference change and I can't hold onto it for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd
    That itself reminds me of playing an instrument, but it doesn't remind me of computers or fluid dynamics or any of the more popular cognitive metaphors at all. I don't even want to use something concrete as a metaphor for the mind or soul, and I'll generally just use light when I do think about that. That seems to be the oldest comparison based on everything I've read, but not popular at all because it's not concrete and people want these metaphors to make it concrete.
    That's why all of my pictures in the "describe your mood in pictures" thread are of things like the sky in various shades and times of day, and in one case a match burning out, as those kinds of images are the closest I can get to describing my mood at any given time. And my avatar is a picture of me, it captures something of how I see myself even though it's technically lava flowing into the ocean. Likewise, I don't see my mind as a computer or boxes or anything like that, because well, it's a living thing, a hungry living thing and perhaps "hungry living thing" is the closest concrete image I have for it.

    (sorry for the many edits, while reading the thread I kept finding more things I wanted to comment on, and didn't want to make a new post for each one)
    Last edited by squark; 07-15-2017 at 01:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    @Myst Yeah, I don't mean all possible ways of thinking. Aylen's doesn't sound like it'd work very well with how I think since it seems vague to me. But I do think most people's are somewhat flexible depending on context and obviously not "just visual" or "just verbal" (but again, most polls also say that) and a lot also fall outside of what gets surveyed. And yes, you could try to run these kinds of thinking on a computer, but that narrows it down, like digital vs. analog. I think in analog I guess, and just don't want to think of it as a computer for Occam's Razor-type reasons It's like how trying to simulate a human voice on a digital computer tends to be weird, but then, you can do different things with digital instruments that gives them advantages.
    Heh ok that's interesting how you see it as use of occam's razor to not think of it in terms of the mechanics a computer could have. (When I mention computers, I'm not necessarily thinking about your PC.)


    Yes, symbols have to stand for reality at some point, but where? Jung's "rationality" idea basically has all language as relative in the first place.
    Where, when it goes to the level of anchoring the information utilized by the symbol, to actual low level perceptions of outside reality. This quite obviously has to happen at one point in some form in the brain/mind. I see this as a non-issue, as long as you accept that our perception of outside reality lines up enough with outside reality at least to a "good enough" degree. Btw, don't necessarily have to think of it as translation of sensory information into other kinds of information - the incoming information can very early on start to be processed specific to some other modality of information processing. Still, the end result is, the high level symbol does have an anchor in the low level processing of the incoming information.


    And yes, I said on the belief thing, it depends on how you define belief. Usually, when I hear that word, it's taken to be some sort of Platonic absolute. I feel like describing this more since the last post was made at night and I was tired and went to sleep right after.
    OK.


    I don't think absolutes like that apply to anything you can cleanly describe. I say science depends on Christianity at least historically, and this kind of thing explains why (even if quoting the Bible in most arguments tends to rank slightly above Germanic commas in tending to make you sound crazy or at least just ridiculous):
    Uhm, I would hardly take that claim literally, I guess.


    Plato was considered "the first Christian" because of viewing the material world as an imperfect representation of the spiritual world (the world spiritual also means something clear regarding Plato rather than meaning something like "pseudo-religious"). Science, mathematics, and most ideas of knowledge in general depend on having absolutes that are outside of the actual thing you're trying to analyze. If you take things like trees, or money, or status as absolute, whatever you know will revolve around that, so really knowing things depends on trying to put absolutes outside of basically everything. That sounds like a typical belief until you start really trying to describe it in-depth, then it sounds contradictory even if it's also clearly necessary on another level. It's sort of a different category and dynamic than taking a specific thing as absolute to begin with. The part where it's similar would be seeing things as "absolute" relative to other things, but as soon as I see a contradiction (a la Gödel's incompleteness theorem, no system can be all-comprehensive, and that's about as Platonic as it gets between mathematics = Platonism, yet you're taking the Absolute out of these representations) I'll drop it. Can you do this perfectly? Not really, but I still see it as better than pretending some arbitrary fixed thing can be some sort of Godly all-encompassing idea, like people do with materialism, dualism, capitalism, socialism, or whatever other -ism, so it's worth it to me even if it means admitting perpetual error. The alternative is engaging in one perpetual error, camping out there, and not admitting it, so that's obviously worse to me. Being able to go on this way is really, really closely linked with personal experiences and you can't get there just by thinking about it no matter how you think about it which is what makes it hard to go along with by typical modern standards. (@Aylen since you'll probably also want to read this)
    OK, no, science is about refining models as soon as you found a better one. That's hardly putting absolutes.


    Static vs. dynamic are basically flipsides of the same coin, and I'm sure how I think is dynamic as it gets here. It's like a song: You think of the whole song at once, basically. It's not some linear XYZ perception of songs or you wouldn't be able to hear them coherently and there'd be no point.
    Static info types aren't about being linear perceptions. Actually, seeing the links between events is a more linear perception than a holistic picture of a still situation or object. But I wouldn't want to equate dynamic with linearity, either. Ni isn't entirely that because of its associations being more flexible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Yes. As can be seen in my post from 5 years ago, I mention video, and then describe everything in terms of stills here, so which is it? And the answer is of course both. And everyone else most likely thinks in both as well, but when you ask them to remember something, or they think of an instance, they'll think of what they did in that particular instance and extrapolate to the others..
    That's oversimplification. It may happen that someone decides really fast about how they think, but you can definitely think of more than just one instance, it does take time to investigate everything of course but it's possible. I noticed for me it depends on what kind of thing it is about. Sensory-analytical stuff is shown in stills to me, people related stuff is movie-like but I have that mode a lot less often.


    It takes an effort to switch to a dynamic viewpoint though, and I'm more just thinking about it than thinking in it. I can picture it, that kind of constant motion like wheels turning, but it's a short-term frame of reference change and I can't hold onto it for long.
    Actually, for dynamic types the changing isn't crazy constant motion like that, it's more gradual changing, can be imperceptible at one moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Although I mainly think in text, when it comes to numbers and musical notes (especially the latter) I tend to think in colors. For example, I associate odd numbers and, more specifically, prime numbers, with darker colors (brown, red, dark orange) and even numbers with lighter ones (yellow, turquoise, light green). Same thing with pitches (F is green, G is brown, A is red and so on). The color also depends on the instrument which is being played.

    I think I have some kind of synethesia but I wonder how these factors can influence Model A. Perhaps they're signs of high ?
    I saw one mention of synethesia in an EIE description, but I don't think it's type-related. There was a girl here a long time ago who talked about having it, as did her sister. She was LII and her sister was. . . something else, I don't remember. Hard to say what it might be related to. I haven't looked into it enough (and don't have it myself) so I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Static info types aren't about being linear perceptions. Actually, seeing the links between events is a more linear perception than a holistic picture of a still situation or object. But I wouldn't want to equate dynamic with linearity, either. Ni isn't entirely that because of its associations being more flexible.
    Well, it always says "static is pictures" or something so I tend to think of it like some Zeno's Paradox type thing where static types are putting together images like some sort of animation. My point with the music thing wasn't so much "seeing the links between events" as having one event that gets broken down from the top. For example, if you see a color, that's a frequency of light. But you don't see photons flapping around or whatever, just a color. Songs are sort of like that because you can say "sing Hotel California" and people can do it but you can't just make people start at random places within the song generally and actually have them be able to sing it. There are general principles and that comes out in the song, not A -> B -> C word by word and note by note. The "links between things" are more salient than the individual things themselves (although not completely automatic like colors vs. light frequencies).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Actually, for dynamic types the changing isn't crazy constant motion like that, it's more gradual changing, can be imperceptible at one moment.
    That's not how I meant what I was saying anyways, just how I'll think about units of time by having events repeat cyclically in comparison to other ones in cases where I feel like I need to think about time more concretely. Basically, it's a conscious process that I mentioned in contrast to squark saying she puts time events on a line to visualize them (also a conscious process). It's especially good for getting more of a "sense" of longer amounts of time, like if you want to try to figure out how many things will be changed 10 years from now, you just think about how things were 10 years ago. I came up with the idea trying to figure out how things would've seemed internally hundreds or thousands of years ago, which is not particularly practical even if it's really cool to think about, and it mostly does seem like a pretty good way to break through associative memory more than anything because instead of associating Y with X, you're taking Y and Z and associating them with X that doesn't have anything in particular to do with Y or Z in themselves. Using a timeline shares that in common but the motion aspect of having some sort of wheel (can be planetary orbits, clocks, or other things like that) seems to help make things a lot more concrete and active, like you can basically "feel" time passing that way even if it's hundreds of years or something else well beyond what you've actually experienced.

    As a side note, I've wanted to call this kind of "internal technology"/procedures Ti quite a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Well, it always says "static is pictures" or something so I tend to think of it like some Zeno's Paradox type thing where static types are putting together images like some sort of animation. My point with the music thing wasn't so much "seeing the links between events" as having one event that gets broken down from the top. For example, if you see a color, that's a frequency of light. But you don't see photons flapping around or whatever, just a color. Songs are sort of like that because you can say "sing Hotel California" and people can do it but you can't just make people start at random places within the song generally and actually have them be able to sing it. There are general principles and that comes out in the song, not A -> B -> C word by word and note by note. The "links between things" are more salient than the individual things themselves (although not completely automatic like colors vs. light frequencies).
    The bolded just sounds like either Intuition or Static Intuition specifically. (First bolded is extraverted too, focused on one event as an object instead of the links between events/objects.) But I don't really want to analyze by this Socionics dichotomy too much. I don't see enough of a point for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    That's not how I meant what I was saying anyways, just how I'll think about units of time by having events repeat cyclically in comparison to other ones in cases where I feel like I need to think about time more concretely. Basically, it's a conscious process that I mentioned in contrast to squark saying she puts time events on a line to visualize them (also a conscious process). It's especially good for getting more of a "sense" of longer amounts of time, like if you want to try to figure out how many things will be changed 10 years from now, you just think about how things were 10 years ago. I came up with the idea trying to figure out how things would've seemed internally hundreds or thousands of years ago, which is not particularly practical even if it's really cool to think about, and it mostly does seem like a pretty good way to break through associative memory more than anything because instead of associating Y with X, you're taking Y and Z and associating them with X that doesn't have anything in particular to do with Y or Z in themselves. Using a timeline shares that in common but the motion aspect of having some sort of wheel (can be planetary orbits, clocks, or other things like that) seems to help make things a lot more concrete and active, like you can basically "feel" time passing that way even if it's hundreds of years or something else well beyond what you've actually experienced.

    As a side note, I've wanted to call this kind of "internal technology"/procedures Ti quite a bit.
    Sure, I was replying to squark's Socionics related idea there, not to yours, you weren't talking about that, I didn't try to see your post on time in any kind of Socionics context at all.

    Interestingly enough, I have a sense of longer amounts of time just fine, it's not very conscious but it's there sometimes fine. I don't need to do all this stuff about thinking about how things were 10 years ago. The wheel image would not help me at all. I guess people just differ.

    As for the last line, no, this is some Intuition (some mix of Ne/Ni is what it seems to be), not Ti. But I could misunderstand what exactly you referred to as Ti, sure, if you want to get into this, msg me on chat (off topic here).

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