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Thread: LIIs and Fe dual-seeking

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    Default LIIs and Fe dual-seeking

    I'm pretty used to the Fe dual-seeking of LSIs in real life (which usually involves them being playful or directly seeking attention by planting themselves right next to me so that I acknowledge them). However, recently I've befriended an LII who I respect and admire. She does something I've noticed other LIIs (and some alpha NTs in general) doing, but have never scrutinized enough to understand--she behaves with what looks like indifference, usually, when I'm responding to her or making conversation. I interpret that reaction as polite disinterest and talk less, or try to shift the conversation to something that might interest her more. When I feel like these attempts have gone from being merely boring to mildly irritating, I give her space and do my own thing. To me, this is pretty standard behavior that works with the majority of people, but sooner or later, I notice the LII attempting to resuscitate the conversation. So I'm not sure if this is Fe DS behavior, if she isn't really bored but just not very good at broadcasting enthusiasm (she's also E5), or if she's feeling drained but not understanding why, so she tries to be polite without getting seriously invested. IDK GUYS. I've kind of experienced this with other alpha NTs in the past, doing the "I want to be included" thing, then disappearing when you try to engage them, then being like "hey why stop" when you give them their space. Is this just them being more comfortable letting someone else take the reigns, or am I not gregarious enough for them or what?

    FWIW, this all goes on when we're communicating via text. Actual conversations via phone or whatever are usually fun-filled as long as one of us isn't falling asleep. Please help me be less of an emotional terrorist to alpha NTs.
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    or maybe she's busy and doesn't want to devote the time to talking to you when you're not there?
    salmon

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    LIIs like to limit conversations to things they find interesting to talk about because we are poor small talkers and dislike having to shift our thoughts to the common mundane things people often use is a basis for socializing. My guess is she was probably waiting for you to mention something that crossed her interest. She might of interpreted you giving her space as, "Fuck it, you don't care about anything I'm saying so I'm just going to give up trying", which then prompted her in making amends by trying to restart the conversion. The secret to getting along with LIIs is all about finding out what they are really interested in, which can be a bit difficult because the interest of LIIs tend to be a bit distant from the mainstream things like sports, celebrities, relationships etc. LIIs usually only open up in talking about those interest once they feel they are in an atmosphere void of criticism and that they are unconditionally loved by whom they are speaking to.

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    netflix and don't touch me Emmym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    LIIs like to limit conversations to things they find interesting to talk about because we are poor small talkers and dislike having to shift our thoughts to the common mundane things people often use is a basis for socializing. My guess is she was probably waiting for you to mention something that crossed her interest. She might of interpreted you giving her space as, "Fuck it, you don't care about anything I'm saying so I'm just going to give up trying", which then prompted her in making amends by trying to restart the conversion. The secret to getting along with LIIs is all about finding out what they are really interested in, which can be a bit difficult because the interest of LIIs tend to be a bit distant from the mainstream things like sports, celebrities, relationships etc. LIIs usually only open up in talking about those interest once they feel they are in an atmosphere void of criticism and that they are unconditionally loved by whom they are speaking to.
    That's pretty much the feeling I get. However, LIIs, due to having Fi-role instead of Fi-polr, actually strive to have some awareness of how their interests are perceived, so at various points they will clam up about them if they're talking about them a lot, or say something like, "Well, my interests are stupid." Even if those things aren't really stupid and matter deeply to them. We got acquainted because I was a fan of her writing, and though she's extremely hesitant to talk about it, she always opens up when I'm vocal about my appreciation of it in a way that doesn't sound like I'm mindlessly praising her. I think the difference between EIIs and LIIs is that, while neither are "normal," being aware of this drives EIIs to try and act MORE normal so they don't get left behind (hence the documented trend of EIIs studying groups and individuals for a long time before allowing themselves into their midst) whereas LIIs have the opposite reaction, and don't even try to conform with society's expectations because they view doing so as beneath them and not worth the effort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    FWIW, this all goes on when we're communicating via text. Actual conversations via phone or whatever are usually fun-filled as long as one of us isn't falling asleep.
    This is probably important. I notice that in real-time text communication I can't really hold my full attention on the relationship because there just isn't enough there to work with, so I tend to try to switch back and forth between the conversation and my own internal world... it doesn't work very well; the rhythm of the communication is all wrong. If your friend is like me, then what you see as disinterest is probably more like "huhwhat? I was thinking about something else." (like this)

    You might want to consider sticking to voice (where the rhythms work more naturally) and non-real-time text (where short-term rhythms don't really matter).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    This is probably important. I notice that in real-time text communication I can't really hold my full attention on the relationship because there just isn't enough there to work with, so I tend to try to switch back and forth between the conversation and my own internal world... it doesn't work very well; the rhythm of the communication is all wrong. If your friend is like me, then what you see as disinterest is probably more like "huhwhat? I was thinking about something else." (like this)

    You might want to consider sticking to voice (where the rhythms work more naturally) and non-real-time text (where short-term rhythms don't really matter).
    Tbh, that was the point of my post. The mode of communication completely changes things.
    salmon

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    This is probably important. I notice that in real-time text communication I can't really hold my full attention on the relationship because there just isn't enough there to work with, so I tend to try to switch back and forth between the conversation and my own internal world... it doesn't work very well; the rhythm of the communication is all wrong. If your friend is like me, then what you see as disinterest is probably more like "huhwhat? I was thinking about something else." (like this)

    You might want to consider sticking to voice (where the rhythms work more naturally) and non-real-time text (where short-term rhythms don't really matter).
    Wow...this is very eye opening....i had no idea!
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    Concrete people may have variations, but generally types having same function in A model place express it in similar way. Same with LSI and LII.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    netflix and don't touch me Emmym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    This is probably important. I notice that in real-time text communication I can't really hold my full attention on the relationship because there just isn't enough there to work with, so I tend to try to switch back and forth between the conversation and my own internal world... it doesn't work very well; the rhythm of the communication is all wrong. If your friend is like me, then what you see as disinterest is probably more like "huhwhat? I was thinking about something else." (like this)

    You might want to consider sticking to voice (where the rhythms work more naturally) and non-real-time text (where short-term rhythms don't really matter).
    I think you may be right. The natural interplay of two Ne-egos, while exhilarating, doesn't really work over text. Even my best friend (IEE) and I have texting issues and prefer to call. Otherwise, it seems like conversations between two Ne-egos usually devolve into mutual bitching, which can become draining.
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    Hi @Emmym,
    Please excuse my curiosity, I take the opportunity to ask you more questions, so that I can better see how we act with your type and how you see us, LII's.

    I am interested about that "polite disinterest" you see in your LII friend. Because I am not usually thinking very much about this aspect of a relationship when I speak with someone. How do you sense it ? Do your think she is disinterested with you or with the subject of the conversation ?

    Also, how does she resuscitate the conversation ? Does she start a new subject ? Does she comes back to a subject you mentioned ?

    What do you mean by "I give her space" ? Do you mean you just stop talking or do you change your behavior in any other way ?

    I think she might just be oblivious to your Fi. I mean that she might just not take into account your attempts to get closer to her or to establish a relationship, like she is interested by you or your subject of discussion, but completely disregarding your closeness or relationship while doing it.

    For example, I usually don't act kindly toward someone because of our friendship, but just because I think it is right to act this way regardless of the relation. I always hope I can speak about what I am interested openly, and usually it is not the depth of the relationship that is limiting, but the capacity of being understood by the other. Like I find that relationship are only a burden, and it would be better if everyone could speak freely with anyone

    Feel free to comment. At least you know that our actions may not be consistent if you look at them through a relationship scale. With training, we may respond better to the Fi needs and norms of others, but it is draining to us. Probably just as draining as constantly having to express your thought in a logical consistant speech (Ti) is for you We prefer to have a soft supporting and "compassionate" kind of supervision in this area.

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    I don't think that behavior is type related. If she's a shy introvert she won't think of things to talk about and maybe thinks of something and feels like she needs to say it when she's ready to talk

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaHilderberg View Post
    Hi @Emmym,
    Please excuse my curiosity, I take the opportunity to ask you more questions, so that I can better see how we act with your type and how you see us, LII's.

    I am interested about that "polite disinterest" you see in your LII friend. Because I am not usually thinking very much about this aspect of a relationship when I speak with someone. How do you sense it ? Do your think she is disinterested with you or with the subject of the conversation ?

    Also, how does she resuscitate the conversation ? Does she start a new subject ? Does she comes back to a subject you mentioned ?

    What do you mean by "I give her space" ? Do you mean you just stop talking or do you change your behavior in any other way ?

    I think she might just be oblivious to your Fi. I mean that she might just not take into account your attempts to get closer to her or to establish a relationship, like she is interested by you or your subject of discussion, but completely disregarding your closeness or relationship while doing it.

    For example, I usually don't act kindly toward someone because of our friendship, but just because I think it is right to act this way regardless of the relation. I always hope I can speak about what I am interested openly, and usually it is not the depth of the relationship that is limiting, but the capacity of being understood by the other. Like I find that relationship are only a burden, and it would be better if everyone could speak freely with anyone

    Feel free to comment. At least you know that our actions may not be consistent if you look at them through a relationship scale. With training, we may respond better to the Fi needs and norms of others, but it is draining to us. Probably just as draining as constantly having to express your thought in a logical consistant speech (Ti) is for you We prefer to have a soft supporting and "compassionate" kind of supervision in this area.
    Hi, Josh. I hope you don't mine me formatting my answers numerically.

    1. Polite disinterest in the subject of the conversation, usually. Or just a lack of enthusiasm for it that can't be manufactured. The difference, I think, is that Delta NFs CAN manufacture such enthusiasm, they just generally don't want to for most people, but will for new acquaintances/people they are trying to charm/their close friends.

    2. She usually comes back to the topic we were last discussing. I guess that's the part that confuses me. Other Alpha NTs I know seem to do this, too. I know an ILE who will usually show total boredom bordering on annoyance if I talk about something that doesn't matter to them, but when I go silent as a result, they try to dive back in almost apologetically (but still without any real enthusiasm), and it puts me in an awkward position. I'd rather they just changed the subject, unless they're changing it all the time.

    3. By giving her space, I mean I usually just do my own thing until something else occurs to one of us. I don't mean I completely disappear.

    In theory, I think LIIs and EIIs agree with each other on most things behavioral. In practice, we might differ somewhat. My Ti isn't so weak that logic falls by the wayside with me, but I there might be places I can't "go" with it yet, or I'm hesitant to demonstrate partial understanding lest I be required to learn more than I'm willing to absorb. The way IEIs are casually open to Si, especially when it furthers their connection with Se, Ti is like that with me. I don't usually pursue it for its own sake, but if it furthers a goal of mine, I won't be totally lazy about it.

    Similarly, I don't think LIIs want to show that they analyze people as much as they actually do. They play up other people's ability to do this while masking their own ability to understand others, as if making it obvious could lead to others taking advantage of them. They seem a little less paranoid about it than ILEs, however.
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    No problem, you can use numbers, I will put quotes so that you can follow too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    2. She usually comes back to the topic we were last discussing. I guess that's the part that confuses me.
    Why are you confused ? What do you think when it happens ? When it happens, are you confused for yourself or for her or for another implication ? If you were to come back to a topic, what could be your reasons ? If you wanted to come back to a topic but you decide not to, what could be your reasons ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    In theory, I think LIIs and EIIs agree with each other on most things behavioral. In practice, we might differ somewhat.
    Yeah, we are kind of look-a-like

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    My Ti isn't so weak that logic falls by the wayside with me
    I agree, but also EII may disregard having to restrict themselves to a well defined rational point of view. They will mix different logical structures or different logical aspects of the subject without expliciting the logical connections or the changes of points of view. I tell myself: what EII says is usually consistent, but not how they say it. While the smaller details of their speech is usually logical, the global structure is not. Examples: switching to a different meaning for the same words that were previously used, literally saying 2 contradictory statements 5 minutes apart (the meaning is not contradictory, but the statements are), not keeping implicit assumptions consistent in a conversation. So I need to find and recreate the global Ti structure of their speech to understand them. Otherwise, they will appear to me as off topic or illogical, because they don't conform to the logical context that is expected. They tend to not see or to disregard the logical formal structure.

    Well somehow, EII are not completely wrong in doing so, because a rational view or explanation of an object is just that: a view, an external structure through which we view the object. So I think it is also great to be able to dismiss this limitation at times But it took me some time to appreciate it for more than a perpetual communication dissonance that is due to the fact that the EII will not completely abide by the logical structure. What interests me the most is the logical structure. Refining the logical structures is my natural way to find and understand the deep truths of this world. It is the basis of my insights. So sharing and getting comments and refinements on it is one of the most interesting things to me. Now with EII, I decided to just build the missing logical connections for myself, and don't view it as a limitation of their "wisdom".

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    Ti is like that with me. I don't usually pursue it for its own sake, but if it furthers a goal of mine, I won't be totally lazy about it.
    Yep I understand. Would you say that Ti feels like an external arbitrary limitation to you ? Could you elaborate ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    Similarly, I don't think LIIs want to show that they analyze people as much as they actually do. They play up other people's ability to do this while masking their own ability to understand others, as if making it obvious could lead to others taking advantage of them. They seem a little less paranoid about it than ILEs, however.
    I don't understand. You say that LII don't show that they can understand the personality of other people because if LII showed that they could understand others then they would be taken advantage of ? How can you take advantage of an ability to understand others ? Do you mean: understanding others or understanding our relation to others ?


    PS: Although it doesn't matter much, I prefer Joshua to Josh, but thanks for the kind gesture. (Maybe it is because I am not used to nicknames in my area...)
    Last edited by JoshuaHilderberg; 04-01-2016 at 10:09 PM. Reason: typos

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    LII (and LSI) aren't good at generating enthusiasm when making conversation and often rely on cues from their conversational partner about how much enthusiasm is appropriate in a given situation. Normally this works fine for conversing with EII, who while not overtly emotional can still generate the kind of emotional 'background' that is requested. However, at some point EII will subconsciously tire of providing this background (subdued ) and then the interaction might falter.

    LII / LSI interactions can be even more awkward. Picture two people standing around waiting for someone to indicate when it's felicitous to start moving around or talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    LII / LSI interactions can be even more awkward. Picture two people standing around waiting for someone to indicate when it's felicitous to start moving around or talking.
    Eheh, true. I haven't found a good way to go about this yet...

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    LIIs don't rationalize in real-time and they listen to what you say objectively neither believing your signals nor discounting them. And, they listen until the register is full; then they must go inside to process; and then they surface again. This behaviour does often give the appearance of coldness and disinterest. However, the porpoise-like behaviour occurs when they're interested. If they're not interested, they'll likely try to leave without ceremony.

    a,k.a I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LIIs don't rationalize in real-time and they listen to what you say objectively neither believing your signals nor discounting them. And, they listen until the register is full; then they must go inside to process; and then they surface again.
    Would you be able to explain how we can get to this conclusion only based on the socionics models ? Of course it can be observed in the behavior of LII, but I would find it very interesting if you could show me if and how we could deduce this solely from the theory. Thanks.

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    JoshuaHilderberg,

    My perspective, comments and articles are based on my own model, and not one of Socionics. Although I think Socionics is an accurate classification system, their modelling lacks a top-down, systems approach. I've also written on the Socionics.com site under the name I/O although some of my earlier articles are not that well written.........

    Ij and Ep are open-loop thinkers where input and output are not online simultaneously; they employ a daisy-chain priority system to determine what process is online.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I know that I can make LIIs laugh out aloud by pulling out some weird silliness (which I have plenty of). It does not take that much. LSIs reaction is actually very similar. The main difference is that LSIs will state the obvious (or something very false intention behind it) where as LIIs just probably wonder.

    I think that from this observation it can be expanded.

    From what I have seen ESEs that they are the initiators. My removed unreal presence and talk makes them very curios but I don't really know if this work same way with LIIs.
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    @Rebelondeck

    All right, do you have a link to a critique of socionics, or a comparison between your model and others, or maybe just an introduction to your perspective ?

    (On a first (superficial) reading, saying "Ij and Ep" reminds me more of the MBTI behavioral approach rather than the socionics functional approach. So I am wondering what are the bases of your perspective, because I am not sure what meaning you put behind those terms.)
    Last edited by JoshuaHilderberg; 04-02-2016 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    This is probably important. I notice that in real-time text communication I can't really hold my full attention on the relationship because there just isn't enough there to work with, so I tend to try to switch back and forth between the conversation and my own internal world... it doesn't work very well; the rhythm of the communication is all wrong. If your friend is like me, then what you see as disinterest is probably more like "huhwhat? I was thinking about something else." (like this)

    You might want to consider sticking to voice (where the rhythms work more naturally) and non-real-time text (where short-term rhythms don't really matter).
    I second this.

    I'd rather communicate over text if the focus of the conversation is NOT socialization for its own sake, such as schoolwork. In this scenario, I'm not necessarily communicating in real-time, so I have ample time to switch my focus to what the other person is bringing up.

    I'd rather communicate over voice if I'm actually socializing with someone else for its own sake, because I have a hard time going back and forth over text in real time without getting distracted or disinterested. For me, this applies to any real-time communication scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaHilderberg View Post
    @Rebelondeck

    All right, do you have a link to a critique of socionics, or a comparison between your model and others, or maybe just an introduction to your perspective ?

    (On a first (superficial) reading, saying "Ij and Ep" reminds me more of the MBTI behavioral approach rather than the socionics functional approach. So I am wondering what are the bases of your perspective, because I am not sure what meaning you put behind those terms.)
    I never did a comparison; it would be like apples and oranges. I'm am engineer not a psychologist. My structure is certainly not like MBTI:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/mytake.html
    http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html
    http://www.socionics.com/articles/behavetemp.html
    http://www.socionics.com/articles/int_ext.html
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...gendas-by-I-O?
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stress-by-I-O?

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    JoshuaHilderberg,

    From a system perspective, Socionics seems to have done a good job at separating and qualifying independent variables but MBTI seems to have done a better job at describing observed behaviours of type from an external reference (third-person) perspective. However, both sets of descriptions are lacking due to their bottom-up modelling. The structure of type is much simpler than the convoluted theories that have been put together by both camps in a patchwork-like fashion. The two systems can be used together to verify the root processes of much more concrete model. The resulting permutations and combinations on top of the base structure are more soft science.


    a.k.a. I/O

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    Back in time..
    Well, I have seen LIIs to breaking a silence. Ni devaluing humor for example.
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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    I am sometimes like this, I like to have general conversation or chatter going on if I'm not doing deep work, but I usually struggle to hold conversations actively (i.e. I take longer to respond, I am less present, I think I come off as less interested). Sometimes the ideal would be to have 2 or 3 people chatting around me, so that I can be part of the conversation but only jump in when I want to.

    Tbh I think it's something I shouldn't do - I should be present when I'm with others, and not expect to be entertained when I'm not present. I can't manage to do both, so I should choose. Otherwise I feel like a bit of a energy vampire.

    Here's my suggestion: If it's a problem, you could mention "oh, you're busy let's talk later" or something. If I heard that I would be first surprised and then I would introspect and perhaps become clearer about how I want my conversations to go. I normally have a pretty clear idea about when I am good or bad with conversation once I think about it.

    Please, other LIIs, let me and Emmym know if you agree/disagree.
    Warm Regards,



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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    Back in time..
    Well, I have seen LIIs to breaking a silence. Ni devaluing humor for example.
    What would Ni-devaluing humour look like for example?
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    I generally wear a poker face because I sometimes misread the emotional tone of the conversation and end up looking like and idiot, so my solution was to show no emotion and never make a mistake!

    I quickly learned that no emotion looks very much like "bored" to people and now I'm trying out inserting a pause to think before cracking a smile or frown or whatever.

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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    That's a good technique (@nickelslick), it probably also makes you look thoughtful! (Not that LIIs need help coming off that way).

    I don't feel like I "wear" a poker face, I just feel like reacting with my face is something that my face tends to not do naturally, so I've had to practise it. There was a point when I realised my mouth hurt from fake smiling because my face was on auto-just-fake-smile mode for so long.
    Warm Regards,



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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I don't feel like I "wear" a poker face, I just feel like reacting with my face is something that my face tends to not do naturally, so I've had to practise it.
    I practice with people with whom I have a temporary, superficial relationship, like cashiers and waiters. (For example, when a cashier tells me "have a nice day" or the like, I push myself to produce a warm smile when I respond) If you screw it up, the consequences are minor, but you still get feedback.
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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    I practice with people with whom I have a temporary, superficial relationship, like cashiers and waiters. (For example, when a cashier tells me "have a nice day" or the like, I push myself to produce a warm smile when I respond) If you screw it up, the consequences are minor, but you still get feedback.
    I should try this. I produce a "friendly smile" when I'm talking with people, but I mentally imagine it as a superficial veneer. That means when I'm talking with real people (cashiers aren't people, right?), maybe I don't "fully commit" enough to really trying to be friendly and interested in them.

    I've always been surprised there isn't enough "Socionics self-help" resources. I think there's so many people who move through these forums that we could build up a greater repository of wisdom. I'd love more discussion about people skills ("Fi and Fe skills").
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    I practice with people with whom I have a temporary, superficial relationship, like cashiers and waiters. (For example, when a cashier tells me "have a nice day" or the like, I push myself to produce a warm smile when I respond) If you screw it up, the consequences are minor, but you still get feedback.
    I do the same. Except with my close friends and family, human interactions are little more to me than an area to study, conduct experiments on, and analyze in my mind. Of course, human rights are always factored in to my experiments because I refuse to violate them. Therefore, I'm not a sociopath.

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    netflix and don't touch me Emmym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaHilderberg View Post
    No problem, you can use numbers, I will put quotes so that you can follow too.



    Why are you confused ? What do you think when it happens ? When it happens, are you confused for yourself or for her or for another implication ? If you were to come back to a topic, what could be your reasons ? If you wanted to come back to a topic but you decide not to, what could be your reasons ?



    Yeah, we are kind of look-a-like



    I agree, but also EII may disregard having to restrict themselves to a well defined rational point of view. They will mix different logical structures or different logical aspects of the subject without expliciting the logical connections or the changes of points of view. I tell myself: what EII says is usually consistent, but not how they say it. While the smaller details of their speech is usually logical, the global structure is not. Examples: switching to a different meaning for the same words that were previously used, literally saying 2 contradictory statements 5 minutes apart (the meaning is not contradictory, but the statements are), not keeping implicit assumptions consistent in a conversation. So I need to find and recreate the global Ti structure of their speech to understand them. Otherwise, they will appear to me as off topic or illogical, because they don't conform to the logical context that is expected. They tend to not see or to disregard the logical formal structure.

    Well somehow, EII are not completely wrong in doing so, because a rational view or explanation of an object is just that: a view, an external structure through which we view the object. So I think it is also great to be able to dismiss this limitation at times But it took me some time to appreciate it for more than a perpetual communication dissonance that is due to the fact that the EII will not completely abide by the logical structure. What interests me the most is the logical structure. Refining the logical structures is my natural way to find and understand the deep truths of this world. It is the basis of my insights. So sharing and getting comments and refinements on it is one of the most interesting things to me. Now with EII, I decided to just build the missing logical connections for myself, and don't view it as a limitation of their "wisdom".



    Yep I understand. Would you say that Ti feels like an external arbitrary limitation to you ? Could you elaborate ?



    I don't understand. You say that LII don't show that they can understand the personality of other people because if LII showed that they could understand others then they would be taken advantage of ? How can you take advantage of an ability to understand others ? Do you mean: understanding others or understanding our relation to others ?


    PS: Although it doesn't matter much, I prefer Joshua to Josh, but thanks for the kind gesture. (Maybe it is because I am not used to nicknames in my area...)
    Hey Joshua! Finally getting around to answering these. Sorry for the delay. Life's been weird.


    I think it confuses me when someone tries to pick up the thread of a dead conversation because I feel like it just makes an awkward situation more awkward. It's also not something I ever experience with other ethical types, though I suppose I might have done it when I was much younger. It's something I notice alpha NTs doing a lot. I know one ILE in particular who has the weirdest conversation patterns ever. She gets "bored" with most things almost instantly, both via text communication and in real life, but rather than move on to something that interests her, she fixates on the thing that's boring her and tries to force you to introduce it in a more palatable way, then becomes confrontational when she senses that the other person is bored. It's weird. Eventually, I caught on to what things she found interesting and only brought up those, but "only talking about ____" pissed her off. Lol. Sometimes I just can't win with alpha NTs.


    As far as Ti being an external arbitrary limitation... not really, but I guess I focus on Ti mainly where it's linked with Se. So I'm apt to use it much more in concrete, real world scenarios. I can use it more theoretically, but that's almost accidental. I care about being "right" about things I want to understand, but I don't care enough to try to be right about everything. I simply admit the limits of my own knowledge and leave it at that. Ti pursuits are not always things I have the energy or time for, and it feels like I need a real-world context to justify them. I find it embarrassing when people are so sure of their Ti conclusions while being completely wrong, though.


    On the last bit, I think LIIs don't like to necessarily advertise their interest in other people or their relationships, because they might feel like their emotional energy would be preyed upon if people knew their true sentiments. Example: not wanting a group to know what they've observed of a person so that they won't be dragged into gossipping about that person. Or expected to do emotional labor past what they feel like doing. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
    someday the grapes will be wine
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    These observations pertain to texting and not face-to-face conversation?

    I don't think that analysis through texting behavior is all too reliable because you never really know what the other person has going on at the moment, but I will say that texting can be very intrusive and irritating. This is especially true when you have other things going on at the time(work, contemplation, daydreaming, etc.) and the person initiating the texting demands immediate attention and engagement. If that's the case, it is likely that the person will get back to you at a more convenient time. This is more difficult to do in person, when you can't really avoid conversation without seeming too rude. This is when you smile and nod your head. I don't think this is really type dependent, but rather the level of sociability the individual is comfortable with.

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    I don't think the thread has been dead for very long and is fine to revive, unlike those threads that are a few years old. I think the latter would be much more awkward.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    I'll repeat what others have said: the problem here is the medium. If your friend seems different texting than IRL, most likely she just doesn't know how to express interest through texting. It's part of being bad at Fe which is also exacerbated by the limitations of the channel.

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    On top of that, I think that some LIIs agree they also are less interested via texting. Like it seems it's not just a matter of expressing their enthusiasm - they're actively losing interest via text. Personally, and maybe this is me, the times I'm most engaged in text is when I need to choose my words carefully. Say we're arguing/discussing (in a friendly way!) about something, or I need to console people. The medium lets both of us get our thoughts without needing to wait for the other person to reply.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    I kind of find it easier or "safer" to express through text.
    ... just thought I should contribute...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ;1131258
    I kind of find it easier or "safer" to express through text.
    ... just thought I should contribute...
    Captain Kimu,

    LIIs are rehearsed communicators; we seem to need preparation. Now, we may appear spontaneous if the subject is about something we've studied previously but that's fundamentally an illusion. In looking for a mate, many have to treat the process like a project and develop strategies; otherwise, failure is great possibility - unless one has ideal physical features. Chit-chat is painful for me and I admire people who can do it; I have a lot to say but it's much too heavy for chit-chat.

    I don't think it's easier or safer by text/email, but because we're perfectionists and don't think much about anyone's feelings, it allows time to reflect on the correct level, sentiment and phrasing. However, SFs seem to be able to make us seem more spontaneous in communication than we really are.

    a.k.a I/O

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