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Thread: Type and ASPD

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    suedehead's Avatar
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    Default Type and ASPD

    Can any type be a Psychopath?

    Ethical types that I can see being susceptible to Anti-Social PD:

    EIE
    ESE (personal experience)
    SEE
    IEI
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-22-2016 at 03:31 PM.

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    Imo socio/psychopaths can only be thinking types. I don't have any good reasoning to support this claim, it's just coming from experience with people and common sense. Sociopaths are usually Fi and Fe PoLR + honorable mention, LIE. Ethical types and their emotional unstability and sensitivity for the lack of better word is conflicting with sociopathy - sociopaths are more or less unflappable. Imo ethical types can easily be NPD and especially BDP, but not truly ASDP.

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    Most types with ASPD are probably logical types. However, I'm sure it won't be impossible to have an ethical ASPD, but they're probably extremely rare. I've seen my dual thrown around as a common ASPD and I've met my fair of normal ISTPs and psycho ones to know the difference. I would say probably XXTPs are probably the most common ASPDs. Sociopaths are pretty easy to spot in real life and online, they typically don't give a fuck about anything and say whatever is on their mind. Psychopaths on the other hand are way harder to detect, they're like chameleons that have you second guessing yourself constantly unless they decide to reveal themselves to you. The ones you mentioned suedehead are more likely to be BPD, especially ESE.
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    I think an Ethical type could theoretically be a Sociopath proper, which [iirc] is distinguished from Psychopathy in that their anti-social behavior is an environmental adaption and they're thus capable of forming genuine attachments with a select few. Although I think the latter technically precludes them from being ASPD.
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-22-2016 at 04:31 PM.

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    I thought my ESI ex could be ASPD but I'm obviously not a mental health professional. Though each symptom could be unambiguously ticked off. He was diagnosed with ODD as a kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Most types with ASPD are probably logical types. However, I'm sure it won't be impossible to have an ethical ASPD, but they're probably extremely rare. I've seen my dual thrown around as a common ASPD and I've met my fair of normal ISTPs and psycho ones to know the difference. I would say probably XXTPs are probably the most common ASPDs. Sociopaths are pretty easy to spot in real life and online, they typically don't give a fuck about anything and say whatever is on their mind. Psychopaths on the other hand are way harder to detect, they're like chameleons that have you second guessing yourself constantly unless they decide to reveal themselves to you. The ones you mentioned suedehead are more likely to be BPD, especially ESE.
    What stood out to me about the ESE (could've been Fe-EIE in light of his 'edginess', although he was pedantic about physical minutiae and seemed pretty umm..chipper? paradoxically) was an incident where he told me an apparent earnest that one of my older coworkers had died, and when I caught him in the lie, he was simultaneously amused and perplexed by my concern and asked me odd prodding questions as if he were trying to wrap his head around the concept of empathy. My justification for the ESE typing is that he had a classic choleric temperament, seemed patently Si-valuing/Ni-deficient, and was adept at using emotional pressure (petulant hysterics, guilt tripping, ostracism, etc.).
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-22-2016 at 05:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Most types with ASPD are probably logical types. However, I'm sure it won't be impossible to have an ethical ASPD, but they're probably extremely rare. I've seen my dual thrown around as a common ASPD and I've met my fair of normal ISTPs and psycho ones to know the difference. I would say probably XXTPs are probably the most common ASPDs. Sociopaths are pretty easy to spot in real life and online, they typically don't give a fuck about anything and say whatever is on their mind. Psychopaths on the other hand are way harder to detect, they're like chameleons that have you second guessing yourself constantly unless they decide to reveal themselves to you. The ones you mentioned suedehead are more likely to be BPD, especially ESE.
    I agree w all of this.

    Fwiw, I have known two SLE psychopaths, and they could both be very charming w people they wanted to impress.

    Psychopaths can be extremely charming, and some have extaordinary charisma, so their potential victims don't see them coming, and their victims often have a hard time getting out or, once they see the psychopath for what he/she is, convincing people who could help they're being victimized. I have seen this firsthand, and it can get very nasty.
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-22-2016 at 06:38 PM.
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    I'd say logical types are probably much more likely to have antisocial personality disorder (males are also typically diagnosed with ASPD more so than females).

    Borderline personality disorder would be very common among ethical types. BPD has actually been called the "female version" of a psychopath. BPD is more emotionally driven while ASPD is driven more so by a cold calculating mindset.

    I'd say SLE would be a common typing for someone with ASPD. I'm pretty sure @Kill4Me has ASPD traits, judging from his posts.

    If you meet someone with ASPD who comes off as ethical on the outside, they're probably faking it for personal gain.
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    A sociopath is someone who disregards rules, laws and social norms on a regular basis. A psychopath is much broader term used to describe who is unstable acts outs and violently and unpredictably.

    SLE takes the cake by far for sociopathy. H-P cognition makes them very resistant towards social conditioning and then you have Fi polr's lack of empathy to combine with that. SLI and ILE would probably come very distantly next.

    ESE/EIE/SEE aren't typically (if ever) sociopathic but can be prone to acting out very irrationally on occasion, which in some cases could be seen psychopathy. SEE is probably the type others would label as a psychopath most often mainly because of their chaoticness combined with aggressiveness. I don't think SEE is the mostly likely to actually hurt and kill people though, that award is given to the 1D Fi types.
    Last edited by Muddy; 03-23-2016 at 08:17 AM.

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    I don't know whether or not this a serious label. It helps to categorize people that have crossed a certain line and statistically there is a little hope at becoming better citizen. On individual basis I would be a hesitant to put pervasive label since because there are exceptions and thus methods are incomplete. It is also in your own perception.

    Deceit or any wrongdoings in ethical realm ie using ethical methods is usually considered less harmful. This is essentially the key whether it should be so. I can say that the person that was responsible of my brother's health concerns was an ethical person who mobilized logical person to execute it. Her sentence as pure initiator [used her knowledge how to manipulate] was minimal compared to a doer.
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    I think any type can be a psychopath or sociopath. Maybe their cognitive functions are just damaged and warped from the start. Maybe they fall outside of what can be explained by cognitive functions so socionics would not apply. Some say they are born without a conscience. Each function can be distorted. If they process through Fi or Fe for example how would that look? Are they primarily running on instinct to get what they want? From what I have read they are capable of feeling but the feelings are brief and shallow. Their thinking/logic is also warped. They can be illogical and lack common sense. I don't know. I have read many books on psychopaths and it is still a mystery to me since I can only relate to that lack of feeling temporarily when I am in a state of complete apathy. Their's is kind of reversed it seems. The more "charming" and intelligent types could very well be extroverted feelers sensors or thinkers. The more reclusive types could be introverted feelers, thinkers or sensors. They all seem to suffer from some kind of contempt for others. Contempt is a feeling and experienced by many of introverted feelers so no type can be ruled out if you must apply socionics.

    https://psychopathyawareness.wordpre...-does-he-feel/

    Abstract
    Paulhus and Williams (2002) identified a "Dark Triad" comprising the following related personality styles: narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. The heterogeneity found in narcissism and psychopathy raises the possibility of a second triad made up of emotional vulnerability and dark traits (i.e., the vulnerable dark triad; VDT). Along with vulnerable narcissism and Factor 2 psychopathy, the third member of the hypothesized VDT is borderline personality disorder (BPD). Using a sample of 361 undergraduates, we examine the relations between these constructs and their relations with criterion variables, including personality, environmental etiological factors (e.g., abuse), and current functioning (e.g., psychopathology, affect). The results suggest that the VDT constructs are significantly related to one another and manifest similar nomological networks, particularly vulnerable narcissism and BPD. Although the VDT members are related to negative emotionality and antagonistic interpersonal styles, they are also related to introversion and disinhibition. Ultimately, it seems there is a "dark continuum" of pathological personality traits that differ primarily in relation to negative and positive emotionality and disinhibition.


    PMID: 20663024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    In other work, scientists are using the extreme example of risk-taking among psychopaths to elucidate normal behavior and brain structure and function. Prominent characteristics of psychopaths are their poor decision-making ability and heightened risk taking.

    Diana Fishbein, PhD, and her colleagues at the Research Triangle Institute International in Baltimore scanned the brains of 13 psychopaths and 15 nonpsychopaths using positron emission tomography (PET) while the individuals completed two sets of trials from a computerized neurocognitive task—the Rogers Decision-Making Task (RDMT). Before being scanned, the participants scored in either the “primary psychopathy” or nonpsychopathy ranges on a questionnaire that measures psychopathic characteristics.

    The computerized RDMT measures risk-taking tendencies and decision-making ability by presenting participants with various choices that involve “gambling” a certain number of points based on the likelihood that their choice will be correct. Participants can make two choices: choices that are less likely to be correct, but result in a greater number of points earned if they are correct or a greater number of points lost if they are incorrect; or choices that are more likely to be correct, but result in a fewer number of points earned if they are correct or a fewer number of points lost if they are incorrect. Risk taking on this task is characterized by choosing the least likely choice to be correct in pursuit of a greater reward (i.e., earning more points), even though the penalty for being incorrect may be greater (i.e., losing more points) than making a choice that is more likely to be correct.

    Differences in behavior and corresponding brain activity were found between psychopaths and nonpsychopaths, after adjusting for group differences in severity of prior illicit drug use. Individuals within the primary psychopathy range made more risky choices—choices that were more unfavorable (making the least likely choice in pursuit of a greater reward that results in a more likely penalty) during both trials. They also accrued fewer points and had longer reaction times before making choices than did the nonpsychopaths. Although both groups decreased their risky choices during the second trial, the nonpsychopaths reduced their risky choices significantly more than the psychopaths.

    These behaviors appeared to correspond with the PET observations of brain activity, again after controlling for severity of prior illicit drug use, Fishbein says. Although several brain areas were activated in both psychopaths and nonpsychopaths during the RMDT trials, the investigators also found several differences in brain activity. Nonpsychopaths showed significantly higher activation in the bilateral orbital frontal regions, the left lenticular nucleus, and the left parietal cortex than psychopaths. Psychopaths showed more activation than nonpsychopaths in the left anterior cingulate, the right hippocampus, the right insula, and the bilateral caudate. Both groups showed activation in the right orbital frontal cortex, the bilateral thalamus, the cerebellum, and the parietal lobes, and deactivation in the left superior frontal gyrus, the bilateral mid-cingulate cortex, the anterior cingulate, the lenticular nucleus, and the insula.

    “The psychopath group's greater activation of the anterior cingulate cortex and insula is likely related to their greater focus on attaining high rewards and lack of consideration of the potential penalties that may occur,” says Fishbein. “Activation of the hippocampus in the psychopath group is likely related to the lack of appropriate emotional response to choices that incur penalties.

    “Psychopaths' performance deficits correspond to less activation in the prefrontal cortex and more activation in the brain structures sensitive to error monitoring and reward,” says Fishbein. “These activations suggest a lack of frontal inhibitory control over risky decisions.”

    Society For Neuroscience. "Brain Differences In Adolescents, Psychopaths, Lend To Their Impulsive, Risk-taking Behavior." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 2 November 2004. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041030131905.htm>.

    This highlights one of the unique things about the psychopath: their seeming inability to conceive of the abstract idea of "the future."

    It has often been noted that psychopaths have a distinct advantage over human beings with conscience and feelings because the psychopath does not have conscience and feelings. What seems to be so is that conscience and feelings are related to the abstract concepts of "future" and "others." It is "spatio-temporal." We can feel fear, sympathy, empathy, sadness, and so on because we can IMAGINE in an abstract way, the future based on our own experiences in the past, or even just "concepts of experiences" in myriad variations. We can "predict" how others will react because we are able to "see ourselves" in them even though they are "out there" and the situation is somewhat different externally, though similar in dynamic. In other words, we can not only identify with others spatially - so to say - but also temporally - in time.

    The psychopath does not seem to have this capacity.

    They are unable to "imagine" in the sense of being able to really connect to images in a direct "self connecting to another self" sort of way.

    Oh, indeed, they can imitate feelings, but the only real feelings they seem to have - the thing that drives them and causes them to act out different dramas for effect - is a sort of "predatorial hunger" for what they want. That is to say, they "feel" need/want as love, and not having their needs/wants met is described as "not being loved" by them. What is more, this "need/want" perspective posits that only the "hunger" of the psychopath is valid, and anything and everything "out there," outside of the psychopath, is not real except insofar as it has the capability of being assimilated to the psychopath as a sort of "food." "Can it be used or can it provide something?" is the only issue about which the psychopath seems to be concerned. All else - all activity - is subsumed to this drive.

    http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
    IN PSYCHOPATHS, HIGHER IQ CORRELATES WITH GREATER SEVERITY
    In 1941, Hervey Cleckley published The Mask of Sanity, the first psychiatric description of psychopaths- dangerous people, many of them violent or white-collar criminals, who exhibit shallowness and narcissism, callousness and lack of empathy, impulsiveness, a lack of remorse, and egocentricity.

    Cleckley's description has stood the test of time, except for one observation: that psychopaths, unlike other criminals, tend to be highly intelligent. Later studies revealed that in general, psychopaths have IQs similar to those of non-psychopathic lawbreakers.

    A new study, however, suggests that the severity of criminality increases in psychopaths who are more intelligent-a pattern opposite to that seen in criminals who are not psychopathic.

    Peter Johansson and Margaret Kerr studied 370 men sent to a Swedish nationwide assessment center for violent offenders. Forty percent of the men were convicted of murder, attempted murder, or manslaughter.

    The researchers report, "The key finding in this study is that psychopathic and non-psychopathic criminals, although not different in overall levels of intelligence, did differ in how high intelligence was related to the seriousness of misbehavior. For non-psychopaths, higher intelligence, particularly verbal intelligence, meant a later start in violent crime. For those diagnosed as psychopaths, however, high intelligence meant an early start in violent offending and more problematic behavior in and outside of institutions."

    The researchers say that while psychopaths are not more intelligent than non-psychopaths as Cleckley suggested, high intelligence appears to "enhance the destructive potential" of a psychopath. They speculate, "[P]erhaps an explanation lies in the experience of having high intellectual abilities together with characteristics such as impulsivity and irresponsibility that do not allow one to succeed in the ways that people with high intellectual abilities normally do."

    -----
    "Psychopathy and intelligence: a second look," Peter Johansson and Margaret Kerr, Journal of Personality Disorders, Vol. 19, No. 4, 2005, 357-69. Address: Peter Johansson, Center for Developmental Research, Department of Behavioral, Social and Legal Sciences, Örebro University, SE-701 82 Örebro, Sweden, peter.johansson@bsr.oru.se.

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    I seem to have left intuitives out of my previous post. It was not on purpose. Throw them in there too. lol

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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