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Thread: Coming Chastisement/Cleansing of the World

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Coming Chastisement/Cleansing of the World

    I made mention of this topic on another thread, as I have been contemplating on what I have been reading lately about the coming changes in our world. This had nothing to do with the thread, and I was questioned on my sketchy reference to this, so I decided to post it here.

    This is a long post on a very important topic, full of long quotes. A lot of people won't read this because it is long, but I am posting it anyway.

    The book I have been thinking about, and from which I quote below can be read online in the free library (Under the "Resources" tab on the home page) at the Direction For Our Times website. That website represents just one of the many, many great graces God is pouring into this world through many sources, to prepare us for coming upheaval. He wants us to be prepared. Great, great upheaval is ahead in the world, as has been foretold by so many all over the world. There are false prophets out there who copy the things of God but change them just enough to derail us from truth. Yes, they are there, but there are many true prophets. The works at Direction for Our Times are true.

    All of the quotes come from Volume 8 in the free library mentioned above. The other Volumes are about spiritual growth and who God is, and were in print for several years, but Volumes 5 and 8, which address the coming upheavals and difficult days, were withheld from printing and distribution until rather recently.

    Rather than put what I read in my own words, I am going to quote various random parts that stand out to me. It would be better to read it in full context and if you want to you can read the whole volume online as mentioned above.

    The quoted words are in the columns here, and the words of Anne are in regular type, and the words of Jesus are in bold. Anything that is underlined is my underlining. Also if anything is in red, know that it was my making it that way - it is not that way in the original text.

    I am starting with this quote about how, sadly, some will respond to God in the coming hardships.


    "Today our Lord again talked about how some
    people would turn to Him in hardship, and how
    others would curse and blame Him
    . He has spoken
    of this before and it really is a no-win situation for
    Him. This is how the enemy works, though, in that
    when all is well, God is someone to be ridiculed
    and holy people are patronized. When all goes
    wrong, God is bad and people say the most terrible
    things about Him, as though they were following
    Him anyway
    . "

    Yes.
    Okay, here it is about the coming cleansing of the world. This is the "Age of Disobedience" I mentioned in that other thread, explained here, by Anne, who had it explained to her by Jesus.


    Our God is prepared to act in order to cleanse the
    world
    . He would be justified in destroying the
    world, such is the level of rebellion against Him.
    Because of His great love for us, He cannot bear to
    do that, but He is allowing change and the angels
    prepare to act. Jesus says that in times past, even as
    near as the first half of the twentieth century,souls
    were generally obedient
    . This is not so anymore.
    During this time,souls are generally disobedient.

    Before this next part I want to explain that much has been written about these coming days. Here are more details. You may have heard of the "Rapture" - well, there will be no rapture. We will all be here, believers or not. There will be many difficult times on earth and they start when the moon turns red (more on that below) and when the moon turns red it will commence rapid, constant and huge upheavals in the world all the culminating in the great 3 days of darkness when hell will literally be unleashed on earth. Evil will kill itself off basically, and the earth will be cleaned and new and different. More is written about new age of obedience in Volume 8.

    Below are various quotes about the days of upheaval and about the 3 days of darkness which will be actually a good thing because the evil will be almost over. Here is more info on the terrible three days of darkness, from which ANYONE who is here, who has survived the previous events, will have God's protection if they want it:


    Today Jesus talked to me about the darkness. He
    said that it would originate in hell and for that time,
    the duration of the darkness, the world would be
    entombed in this darkness from hell.
    It originates in
    hell but is allowed to flow out into the world for this
    period of time, encircling the world until it meets
    and the darkness is total. This darkness is black and
    is the total absence of light. I keep trying to stress
    the blackness but that is because it is so total and
    complete that I am not sure if people can really
    grasp its density or completeness. I do not
    understand this concept of total evil but Jesus
    assures me that some people will welcome this
    darkness and exult in it. He said some will know
    demons by name because they have affiliations with
    them already
    . I heard an example of the most horrid
    screams and screeches, like a wild cat would make.
    These demons will perform the vilest of tortures
    upon people. These are not the people of the Light,
    by the way. I am to see our experience of this time
    later. During this time, truly hell has come to earth.
    Jesus does not want this or will it, but He definitely
    is allowing this and it is a part of His justice. The
    evil souls in the world are resting upon the grace of
    God, despite their mockery of it. They are laughing
    at God but it is God who keeps them protected and
    comfortable on the earth while they practice all
    kinds of sin and deception
    . In other words, while
    they are living like demons, they are enjoying the
    fruits of God’s goodness
    . This is so temporary and
    they will reap what they are sowing soon indeed. I
    am trying to think of a good analogy so that others
    can understand this.

    You are eating the wonderful food from your host’s
    banquet, all the while making fun of and scorning
    your host, who continues to feed you. You abuse
    the host’s children terribly, in full view of the host,
    while laughing at him and as it were DARING him
    to act. You are taking advantage of the host’s good
    manners, as evil people so often do now. The host
    is about to act and the host’s enemies are about to
    get thrown out of the gathering
    . They will then no
    longer be able to prey on God’s good people who
    do not fight back in the same way because they
    follow Christ.

    They will not be able to practice their evil in the
    same way when they are surrounded by people like
    themselves
    .
    This will happen during the time of
    darkness. If they call out to Jesus, He will answer
    them. The really prideful people will not call out to
    Jesus because they hate Jesus
    . I cannot even fathom
    who these people are or why they would choose
    hell over Christ but He assures me that this is
    exactly what is occurring. The saints will be
    gathered before the Throne during this time, as will
    all of heaven, begging God to end the darkness
    quickly. There will be satanic sacrifices and
    offerings all over the earth during this time of the
    most abominable evil.


    About the chastisements, and then more about the three days of darkness:

    Jesus was heavy-hearted today and said that
    chastisements would come with great loss of life.
    He asked me to kneel down and pray for these souls
    who would be taken abruptly. Jesus is not happy
    about this, but we must move through the storm in
    order to emerge on the other side.

    Jesus told me that during the time of darkness holy
    souls will be gathered together and that souls who
    barely know each other will be placed together per
    His instructions. He said that much has been written
    about this time of darkness in the past, but that He
    does not want to generate fear and that fear is
    neither necessary nor appropriate if you are
    following His path.
    He said that young children will
    sleep and that adults will pray constantly, but not
    from terror
    . Adults will be experiencing union with
    Jesus, hearing His voice, so they will find it easy
    and will desire to remain in constant prayer. Jesus
    said that you would not go outside during this time
    in the same way you would not go outside during a
    violent storm because it would not be safe. He also
    said though that holy souls should not worry about
    being attacked by demons because demons are
    repelled by prayer, holiness, and holy souls.
    Demons will not want to be near those places where
    there are holy souls gathered in prayer
    . Because hell
    will be emptied
    and kind of loosed on the earth, it
    will be a conflagration of evil on earth, and that this
    is the big mardi gras of evil if you will, where evil
    on earth will destroy itself
    .

    After the abomination, committed by the man Jesus
    spoke to me about, Jesus will end the darkness, the
    earth will be cleansed, and the time of the Great
    Disobedience will be at an end, giving way to a
    time of peace and obedience on the earth, which
    will last for a long time. A great many events will
    transpire before this darkness, including the signs
    that Jesus has referred to.


    Now Jesus speaks (the bolded parts). Please note that the paragraphs are from where I pulled various quotes from Volume 8 and may not be in order. Underlining is me. He starts here with what He desires right now:

    I am seeking a great
    detachment during these times
    . My words
    and the graces attached to them will help
    souls with this process. I am Jesus Christ
    and I am seeking out My children. I want to
    protect you.
    All who know Me, know that I
    am gentle, indeed the most gentle of men.
    My Divinity is also gentle and I desire that
    souls be at peace
    . It is for this reason I am
    so generous with My words and graces. I
    am sending everything your world needs to
    move through difficult times with
    confidence and joy
    . ...


    I personally love that last sentence because it reminds me of one of my first and always heroes, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, whose life showed how even being miserable in a concentration camp ones soul could soar. I would like my soul to be like that, and I know that God wants that for all of us, and that we achieve it by His grace only by asking for that gift.

    When the
    moon turns to red, My child, the
    calamities will begin and there will be no
    break in the events
    . They will come one
    after the other. People who are prepared
    will feel the quietness in their souls.
    People who have rejected Me will either
    choose Me then, or take another step
    closer to hell. This time is near.”

    I have sent many signs to mankind
    but they are ignored
    . This level of
    rebelliousness will not continue. For those
    who tell you that man is no worse than he
    ever was, let Me say this. Never in the
    history of humanity was the slaughter of
    so many met with so little resistance
    . The
    taking of an innocent life through
    abortion can never be My will. Do not view
    these scenes as punishment
    because I have
    no need to punish man in this way. I do
    have a need to get man’s attention
    and
    when I allow man to reap what he has
    sown, calamities occur
    . Man then begins
    to consider his eternal soul and his
    entrance to eternity. Men, even those who
    are not following Me, consider what will
    happen when they meet Me. I want
    changes in this world and changes will
    occur. Be at peace because the good souls
    who lose their lives in these incidents are
    martyrs to the times. Souls following
    darkness who are taken will have an
    opportunity to repent. Consider your role
    in the coming of the Kingdom and trust
    that I will care for everything.”

    Anne sees visions of some events, and Jesus comments:

    I use the word upheaval. The events you
    witnessed, which are representative of the
    many events that will occur, will begin
    soon
    . They will come quickly, one after the
    other and you will know that I have
    spoken of this as the time of upheaval.
    In response to your question of whether or
    not I want to clarify when soon is, My
    answer to you was “no.” I will not clarify
    soon to you,little servant, because you are
    heavily burdened as it is and do not need
    that additional weight.
    (I thanked Him very
    sincerely.) You are welcome.
    Can you see why I want My words
    distributed? I want to be with souls and I
    want souls to know that I am with them.
    They will face these events in peace if they
    have practiced relying on Me and trusting
    Me. They will face death differently...


    More sobering truth follows. A price is paid to usher in the new age of obedience. We all die sometimes. This is certainly one of the better reasons.

    Some will die during this time. We all face
    death if we are human and that is what I
    want you to stress to people when you
    speak. Refer to the message I gave to you
    when you asked to read the messages of
    another. This was very human of you,
    Anne, so do not be ashamed. You wanted to
    know what would happen. I told you that
    you would live for a time and then you
    would die. It was not My will that you
    knew more than that from someone other
    than Me, your Jesus. I do not like souls
    seeking information to frighten others.
    Warn others, yes.
    But you see that even
    when I am giving news that could
    frighten, I am gentle and loving and
    concentrate on the Truth, which is that
    heaven will be actively involved in the
    events on earth and in the lives of those
    who welcome us. I tell you again, do not be
    afraid. There is no need.

    Anne has a question, and Jesus answers:

    [Anne speaking]: He does not like this, clearly,
    but this is the way it’s going to go. I did say, “Lord,
    you are all-powerful. This darkness is not in charge.
    Would You not just appear in the sky and say,‘Here
    I am. I am God. Change
    ?’”

    He replied, “Anne, I have done that. I have
    appeared in many ways. My mother is
    appearing all over your world, begging
    her children to change. The world has
    Scripture, which many ignore
    . The world
    has prophecy, which many ridicule. The
    world has My presence in every holy soul.
    There are healers whom I have sent to
    inspire faith. You knew I was with you
    long before you experienced anything
    supernatural. How did you know? You
    knew because every soul knows that I am
    here
    .Some tell themselves I am not here in
    order to secure license, which they use to
    sin and draw others from Me
    . No, My
    child. It is not I who have failed. These
    words will save many. I am sending
    warnings from every corner of the world
    during this time
    . I am doing My part. Let
    every soul do theirs. We will save many,
    but we will lose many, and that is why My
    heart is heavy. Be at peace with this as you
    are doing your part to comfort Me by your
    obedience and your presence in My
    suffering.”




    _____________________________
    [I just want to add, because of Jesus' strong words on the slaughter of abortion, that Jesus is very merciful and understanding of anyone who has gone through this. At the website I mentioned in that free library you can scroll down past the ten volumes to the booklets and click on the "Heaven Speaks About Abortion" booklet and see what Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and His Blessed Mother have to say on that to anyone who has taken part in this. You can see, it is all mercy.]
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-20-2016 at 05:12 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    There are false prophets out there who copy the things of God but change them just enough to derail us from truth. Yes, they are there, but there are many true prophets. The works at Direction for Our Times are true.
    How can you be sure that this is truth?

    I have read so much stuff like this over the years and as soon as I read "hell" is being stressed I see it is as nothing more than a message of fear. Nothing that speaks of hell and damnation rings true to me. This is the kind of stuff I was exposed to when I was with the born-again Christians. The main difference was they believed in the rapture.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    The bible says that Jesus will return during a time of "wars and rumours of wars" (this is one of the signs). At the moment, we are living in the most peaceful time in history, so it is perhaps not surprising if the informed are not paying attention to the bible.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    How can you be sure that this is truth?
    Good question. First we have this explanation of scripture, in I John 4 (that's a link). Christians who are not Catholic have Holy Scripture to teach them, and here are two non-Catholic Christian sites that explain the "4 Tests" rule to tell if a prophet is true, here, and here.

    Catholics have not only the Holy Scripture - the infallible word of God, but also the gift that the words of Scripture can be authoritatively explained by the Church that Jesus that founded and gave the Holy Spirit to, til the end of time. And this Church also will officially rule a prophet to be false or not. It takes a lengthy and full investigation for the Church to rule, but meanwhile one can follow the "four tests", explained above, until the Church rules. It tends to rule rather quickly if a prophet is false but can take time to affirm that it does not go against any teaching of Scripture or doctrine. All of Anne's works have been thoroughly examined by the Church to be free from error in doctrine and have official permission of the Church to be published - and it takes a LOT to get that approval - all is gone over with a fine tooth comb by the most exacting theologians, in a lengthy process. So that is why I can say these works are all true. However, if one is unwilling to take the word of the Catholic Church, there is the "Four Test" method, and the D.f.O.T.'s works will hold up to that.

    As is foretold in scripture, there always were and always will be MANY false prophets out there, and they imitate the things of God, except of course the aim is opposite - they aim to tear us down, not build us up. Of course, we get fooled into thinking we are built up by their lies. And it seems we are, for a time. But that's only so they can enjoy us take a harder fall-down later.

    Also the demons have powers that can imitate God's powers. We can see a Biblical example of this where Pharaoh's magicians imitated some of the supernatural wonders God performed through Moses. And many prophecies have foretold of coming difficult days where the supernatural powers of the evil ones will increase, and their will be many manifestations of "miracles" by demons, to gain a following and trust. But also increasing in these difficult days are the graces and the miracles of God, so we are not left without help, no matter how bad things get.

    There are false prophets who do automatic writing, for example, who, imitating true mystics or prophets who record the words of God or those in Heaven, say that they are recording the words of "an angel" but it is in fact the words of a demon(s). So this sounds exciting, and it is made to be appealing and special (and unlike the things of God, usually appeal with the idea that it is "Special! Exclusive! Secret!" information) and it will ring sort-of-true because it contains truth - even a lot of it - but with just enough falsehood to infect the whole lot and derail the followers.

    I have seen a LOT of this; it abounds today, and the followers feel superior with their "special secret" knowledge which is LIES from the father of lies. But these false prophets have al "tell" they will ALL deny the deity of Christ. They cannot, and will not say, "Jesus is Lord." None of them. Not unless they are standing before Jesus himself, as we witnessed the demons of the demon-possessed do in the gospel stories. Then, in front of Jesus, they HAVE to tell the truth; they have no choice. But to us, they lie. So that is my first and easy "tell": that they canNOT say, "Jesus is Lord."




    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I have read so much stuff like this over the years and as soon as I read "hell" is being stressed I see it is as nothing more than a message of fear. Nothing that speaks of hell and damnation rings true to me. This is the kind of stuff I was exposed to when I was with the born-again Christians. The main difference was they believed in the rapture.
    I bet you can remember some fine, merciful examples of some born-again Christians among those you once knew.

    I say this because I have been familiar with so many different Protestant born-again Christian groups, being an Evangelical born-again Protestant myself for many years before converting to Catholic, and I can say that while I found some fringe-types or unstable people everywhere I also never failed to also find, in the same groups, also those who were extremely reasonable, loving, merciful, devout and stable. In every "flock" there would be some Christians that I looked up to and desired to be more like. You are going to find "off" people, or fanatic-fringe, or hypocrites, in every group made up of people, because that is the reality of people. We are all flawed and broken in some way, just some more markedly so than others.

    Also everywhere, while I found great teaching, I also found some teaching that was "off." Some things in particular that were taught to me as being true were not, and it caused me problems in my life, because believing to be true what is not true puts you in a form of slavery. "The truth sets you free" - and the opposite is: "Lies enslave." So while 98% of what I was taught was true and made me free - so much freer than those living in the lies of the world, there were also bits of error that happen to enslave me in a difficult situation (which was my first marriage).

    I suspect you also encountered some sort of error. Perhaps you heard some hellfire and damnation preaching that your heart told you just was not like God, and you were probably right. Because preachers are people and they are not perfect. There are many distortions of the words of God out there. Our hearts tell us when a thing is wrong, and that is probably what you experienced. When we see Jesus, we see God. And the Jesus that Scripture tells of us is merciful. When I read the first Direction for Our Times book, I knew it was true because God was so infinitely merciful. That is Him. That is how you should know God.

    God is merciful, but He is also perfectly just. And justice is what we will be seeing soon. We all hate the word "sin" these days and its a sign of our times that we all say say wrong is right (and right is wrong). Everything is right if it makes you happy, right? (I am not saying you particularly, Aylen. Just that this is the thinking of our times).

    But no. Our ways are not God's ways, and God makes it clear, in His word, and in each and every one of our hearts where He has written His law, what is right. Yes, we can and do override and override, and then finally kill-off our consciences, but for most of us its still there, waiting, if we care to hear from it. Anyway, also, we do not like the word sin, but we are wiling to accept terms like "karma" or "natural consequences". Its sort of like that. Yes, we will soon be reaping the natural consequences of our choices. That we have not already is only because of the love and mercy of God who is putting it off, to save as many souls as is possible. And also the delay is due to the answers of the prayers of many holy souls who are praying that we have more time, in spite of not deserving it. But it looms. We on earth have been begging for hell to reign on earth. We should be careful what we ask for. But we are foolish.

    I realize Hell is an uncomfortable concept, but it exists, and it's real. Jesus spoke of it, and He does not lie, He is all truth, so, it has to be real. But I love how Jesus speaks of hell in the D.f.O.T. books. It makes you NOT AFRAID of hell or of the existence of eternal damnation, because it makes it clear that no matter how BAD we, or what failures we are with the gifts God has given us, or how stubbornly bad the people we love are, there is still MUCH hope. Hope for even the most hopeless ones we know, because God's mercy is SO BIG. He gives us infinite chances to choose love and Heaven - even after we die, we still have a chance, now that we see the WHOLE picture, the WHOLE truth - to choose Eternal Good instead of eternal hell. But that's not what what life is all about, just getting to Heaven instead of Hell. We are made to know God and love God in this life in and the next. If we are not getting to know God and to love him right now, then we are not doing what He made us to do, and we will never be happy. All our pursuits of happiness will end up making us feel like we have an empty hole inside. Because there is a God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God can fill. And, we will not want to be regretful for how we wasted our time on earth. Because someday, for each of us, our entire lives and the results of all our actions will flash before us. With God's help now, that moment won't be devastatingly sad for us.

    The rapture - its not happening, at least not (at all) like Tim LaHaye writes of it. He is a gifted novelist and dramatizes the Rapture theory, that cropped up sometime in the 1800s and never existed before that. Here is an easy-read/easy-skim article on the Catholic view of that if you are interested. Here is a more detailed explanation of various rapture views of Christian communities if that is of interest.

    So read those if you are interested, Aylen, and if you are not, then don't. As Jesus says in the D.f.O.T books, He has send warnings of the comings times from every part of the world, in many ways. I am not a super-avid follower of these things because just keeping my eyes on Jesus is enough for me. Walking in trust is an everyday effort but really that is all that is expected of us. And "Anne" says that getting excited about the manifestations of the works of the evil ones in the world is like standing in the shadow of the empire state building (representing God and his power) and marveling at the fire ants on the ground and the pain they can inflict. I think that's a right perspective.

    When I was following prophetic things a few years back, I remember repeatedly hearing about reliable mystics foretelling of a great "Warning" soon, a day when EVERYONE in the entire world sees their entire life flash before them and sees the truth of God and of all things - like someone experiences when they die, only this event will be everyone on earth experiencing this infusion of knowledge the same time. I remember hearing that some will be so shocked at the light of truth that they will die right then and there (a good reason to choose today not to willfully choose to live ignoring truth, as our human nature is so stupidly vulnerable to doing). I have not read on this recently but have long accepted it will happen in my day. It will be another grace that will help people choose God - who is their only help in difficult days. And God wants to help!

    So Aylen this answer has come to be more like a sermon. Not ALL sermons are bad, right? This was the best I could do to share the truth as I understand it. It is not blessed with the great graces that come with the Word of God, but hopefully its much influenced by that. I have so many thoughts, and have been thinking much lately, and I had to narrow them down, best I could, and this is actually narrowing it down for me. Sorry I could not say it all in less words. But, at least, I think you are a good skimmer, like me.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    @Eliza Thomason, according to the bible, how many people does Satan slaughter compared to God? Would you say that God is better at "acting" evil than Satan?

    If God is said to be Good, then he is the False Prophet and Demon, nobody else matches his level of deceit.
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    First, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my (deleted) question. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into this, as well as genuine concern for orhers' well-being, and that's remarkable.

    I don't believe this is real, partly bc I doubt "Anne"'s credibility (belief or lack of belief in god aside), and although I don't expect either of us to change the mind of the other I'll explain at least a little of why I dismiss this as untrue. I hope you won't be offended; I enjoy discussing this kind of thing, and I promise to show respect for you even if I disagree w what you've posted

    First, belief in this text depends on belief in the Bible, and I don't think the Bible is holy. But even if I did, there are problems w this text. Here are a couple:


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post

    "Today our Lord again talked about how some
    people would turn to Him in hardship, and how
    others would curse and blame Him
    . He has spoken
    of this before and it really is a no-win situation for
    Him. This is how the enemy works, though, in that
    when all is well, God is someone to be ridiculed
    and holy people are patronized. When all goes
    wrong, God is bad and people say the most terrible
    things about Him, as though they were following
    Him anyway
    . "



    Regarding the bolded text: This is a false dichotomy; there are other possible reactions to hardship, including, as a believer or non-believer alike might, not thinking of god as responsible or concerned at all in response to hardship, and therefore neither to seek comfort nor place blame. (Incidentally, in my opinion this is the best option as to my knowledge god, if he exists, doesn't help or interfere anyway. [If he did both exist and interfere to help at the request of praying people, why would he answer some prayers and not others? This is a particularly problematic question when the unanswered prayers are made earnestly by children sufferering miserably.]) Why wouldn't god consider and mention that option?

    So first, to say that people either turn to god or curse him in times of hardship is to oversimplify and only address the reactions of believers (be they pious or not), since both options rely on the belief in the existence of god. And second, by making such a statement it sounds like god is moping and, in a way, setting himself up as a figure to be pitied for being misunderstood.

    If god exists I doubt he would make such a statement, both bc it contains a fallacy and bc it sounds, well, a little bit whiny.

    (The other underlined sectioin is similarly a fallacy, but I won't delve into that as it's so similar to what I just wrote re: people reacting to hardships.)


    Our God is prepared to act in order to cleanse the
    world
    . He would be justified in destroying the
    world, such is the level of rebellion against Him.
    Because of His great love for us, He cannot bear to
    do that, but He is allowing change and the angels
    prepare to act. Jesus says that in times past, even as
    near as the first half of the twentieth century,souls
    were generally obedient
    . This is not so anymore.
    During this time,souls are generally disobedient.
    Mmmmm. This kind of talk sounds familiar....

    "When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint". - Hesiod, 8th century BC

    "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" - Plato, 4th Century BC

    "The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." - Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 1274

    ...and there are many similar remarks from all across the centuries of recorded remarks. Surely, people have been saying these things since the beginning of people saying anything at all.



    I won't address everything right now, or maybe at all, but this is at least a start. I don't believe this text is legitimate for many reasons. It sounds, frankly, like the writings of someone trying to build a cult following (and in my limited e-research I saw that there is in fact a question not only of the authenticity of this group, but of how their rather significant financial assets are handled).
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The bible says that Jesus will return during a time of "wars and rumours of wars" (this is one of the signs). At the moment, we are living in the most peaceful time in history, so it is perhaps not surprising if the informed are not paying attention to the bible.
    Yes.

    Here's Steven Pinker discussing the decline in violence and general brutality worldwide, plus some theories on why:
    https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pin...ce?language=en
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-21-2016 at 04:05 PM. Reason: added description of link
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    First, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my (deleted) question. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into this, as well as genuine concern for others' well-being, and that's remarkable.

    I don't believe this is real, partly bc I doubt "Anne"'s credibility (belief or lack of belief in god aside), and although I don't expect either of us to change the mind of the other I'll explain at least a little of why I dismiss this as untrue. I hope you won't be offended; I enjoy discussing this kind of thing, and I promise to show respect for you even if I disagree w what you've posted ...
    Thanks, Sapphire. I really appreciate your respectful reply and your honest and frank disagreement. Yes, I am all for respectfully disagreeing! That's just so - civil. I am not up to any more disrespectful discussions - not that I ever had those with you, of course - which I have tolerated before but I realize they just make me tired and drained. I will respond later, sometime after Easter.

    But just quickly, on that first point you made - I guess I am not expecting people to read this and say, "Heh - lets jump into action right now!" But its the truth and I wanted to say it, whether people believe it or not. I cannot even take credit for my own faith, as faith is a gift from God. A gift He does not force on anyone! Also I want to say, that when people are TRULY in the trenches, it does tend to narrow things down to those choices. Its only when times are just a bit tough that there seems plenty of other possible responses to the troubles. Finding God in the trenches - its just always that way. As 12-step programs (truly universal spirituality) would say - one has to hit rock bottom first. I hope that people who read/consider this, probably usually out of just curiosity, and then continue on their way, will somehow find it helpful if they are in the trenches someday, to remember the truth that God is loving and merciful to the extreme, and that He is completely open to respond to any call for help. He gives the peace that passes all understanding. He is peace in the midst of a storm.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The bible says that Jesus will return during a time of "wars and rumours of wars" (this is one of the signs). At the moment, we are living in the most peaceful time in history, so it is perhaps not surprising if the informed are not paying attention to the bible.
    I won't be writing during Holy Week but I just wanted to make a quick response. Yes, there does not seem to be much of wars right at the moment though i don't' follow wars and rumors of war much so I am no authority. But you seem to, in general, have a more optimistic view of humanity's current capabilities than I do, though. The times look bleak to me. By that I mean, the potential is there but pride, envy and lust for power get in the way.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Yes.

    Here's Steven Pinker discussing the decline in violence and general brutality worldwide, plus some theories on why:
    https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pin...ce?language=en
    Oh! He's been fantastic on this subject! I will watch this video, it is new to me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I won't be writing during Holy Week but I just wanted to make a quick response. Yes, there does not seem to be much of wars right at the moment though i don't' follow wars and rumors of war much so I am no authority. But you seem to, in general, have a more optimistic view of humanity's current capabilities than I do, though. The times look bleak to me. By that I mean, the potential is there but pride, envy and lust for power get in the way.
    Actually, the data shows that the 20th century (which included both World Wars) was the most peaceful century per capita in human history. The 21st century so far is beating this record. The most violent time in human history was before Christ, not after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Actually, the data shows that the 20th century (which included both World Wars) was the most peaceful century per capita in human history.
    Yep

    The 21st century so far is beating this record. The most violent time in human history was before Christ, not after.
    Yep

    Also, think of how much violence worldwide has been (ostensibly, at least) in the name of religion, Christian and otherwise. And before the counterargument that Christianity gets it right while, e.g. Islam does not comes up, remember that they think the same thing (and, in the case of ISIS at least, believe in and hope to hasten this apocolypse not so unlike what "Anne" describes in its theme, though w a different plot and characters. Fwiw, I think if the world ends [for humankind] there will just be several billion more dead mortals on this planet).

    Sometimes I think Christianity (the religion I'm most familiar w and w whose followers I have the most contact and opportunity to observe irl) leads people to be more loving, and sometimes I think it makes them more hateful... but the reality is probably that most (all? almost all?) people simply are who and what they are w or without religion.

    I also believe people (myself included) want to believe in something. And for, e.g. Christians, there Christianity is... but I think a religion like Scientology cropping up and becoming so deeply believed by so many exemplifies how people will often believe whatever religious story they're told, as long as there are enough grains of truth to make it...if not plausible, imaginable. And appealing to emotion, the way Christianity does and the way "Anne"'s texts do, is very effective as well bc humans are emotional > logical creatures.

    Looking forward to hearing back from you, @Eliza Thomason. Enjoy the week
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-21-2016 at 07:53 PM. Reason: typo
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Every generation has had people sure that their times were the end of days due to the perceived degradation of the scripture and its values. Every generation has been wrong. Personally. I think its because the rapture means the end of the world and if you're alive when it happens... you never have to die. I think subconsciously the motivation behind this phenomenon is the fear of death.

    "Death scares us. And that, more than anything else, explains what rapture-mania is all about. Christianity is about death and resurrection, not about the denial of death. Not about "Jesus coming back to get us before we die."
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Also, think of how much violence worldwide has been (ostensibly, at least) in the name of religion, Christian and otherwise. And before the counterargument that Christianity gets it right while, e.g. Islam does not comes up, remember that they think the same thing (and, in the case of ISIS at least, both believe in and hope to hasten this apocolypse not so unlike what "Anne" describes in its theme, though w a different plot and characters. Fwiw, I think if the world ends [for humankind] there will just be several billion more dead mortals on this planet).

    Sometimes I think Christianity (the religion I'm most familiar w and w whose followers I have the most contact and opportunity to observe irl) leads people to be more loving, and sometimes I think it makes them more hateful... but the reality is probably that most (all? almost all?) people simply are who and what they are w or without religion.
    It is often said by religious people warning of "secularism" etc. that "most" wars, conflicts etc. were non-religious in origin, with the implication therefore that "most" wars are caused by atheists or at least those of "weak faith". It should of course however be pointed out that most wars and conflicts throughout history were caused by people who had a religion. Whether the conflict was cause by religious fervour, or greed, or agitation between different groups, or general hatred, it is always a form of fundamentalism and a general lack of compassion for others. However, the issue with religion is not whether it causes (or is used as an excuse for) most wars or kills the most people, but the fact that it has caused wars and deaths that would not have happened if people had not trusted in "that which cannot be seen", but instead focused on matters of primary importance, such as investigating and adopting universal humanitarian values (through practical philosophy!) and fixing earthly problems.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    First, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my (deleted) question. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into this, as well as genuine concern for others' well-being, and that's remarkable.

    I don't believe this is real, partly bc I doubt "Anne"'s credibility (belief or lack of belief in god aside), and although I don't expect either of us to change the mind of the other I'll explain at least a little of why I dismiss this as untrue. I hope you won't be offended; I enjoy discussing this kind of thing, and I promise to show respect for you even if I disagree w what you've posted .
    Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I really appreciate your respectful way of disagreeing. Thanks also for the compliment above. I try. Then I see for example SEIs who are much better at genuine active concern for others and I don't feel very good at "concern" at all. We all have different gifts...

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    First, belief in this text depends on belief in the Bible, and I don't think the Bible is holy. But even if I did, there are problems w this text. Here are a couple:
    ...[a quote was here]...
    Regarding the bolded text: This is a false dichotomy; there are other possible reactions to hardship, including, as a believer or non-believer alike might, not thinking of god as responsible or concerned at all in response to hardship, and therefore neither to seek comfort nor place blame.
    Trying to understand here. Even though you just said something Jesus said is somehow false, which is not possible. However, I will pretend you are writing about someone pretending he is the Lord, just like you, for the sake of discussion, are pretending to believe God's word is holy when you don't think it is. Hope that makes sense! Also, I am keeping in mind that you, like me, are a Negativist, and are looking for whats not there, or the flip side.

    I personally really, really see the truth in this statement: "... people who say God is someone to be ridiculed and holy people are patronized. When all goes wrong, God is bad and people say the most terrible things about Him, as though they were following Him anyway. " I have seen this in human nature and its good to be told this is a thing to expect when things get hard. Because of the will. People want to believe what they want to believe, vs. seeking the truth.

    You've heard of "there are no atheists in the trenches", right? I think Jesus is not talking about everyday-hardship here, but more like the trench kind. Think of it as akin what twelve-steppers refer to as the "rock-bottom" that one has to hit before one acknowledges a higher power.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    (Incidentally, in my opinion this is the best option as to my knowledge god, if he exists, doesn't help or interfere anyway. [If he did both exist and interfere to help at the request of praying people, why would he answer some prayers and not others? This is a particularly problematic question when the unanswered prayers are made earnestly by children suffering miserably.]) Why wouldn't god consider and mention that option?
    God exists. Yes, He does not interfere and offer help when it is not asked. God says "If you seek me, you will find me." This is the truth. I am not saying this is you, but there are many people who DO NOT WANT to know God. They WANT to believe He does not exist. Because if He did, He might ASK SOMETHING of them. And God does not violate the will.

    He does interfere and send down extraordinary miraculous graces and helps when asked. I know because He has so many times in my life and I depend on it. One of the greatest gifts He does not say no to if for His peace, "peace not as the world gives", but "peace which passes all understanding". It transcends our circumstances. He cannot always change our circumstances, perhaps because it would violate some wills, and also because it may not be best for us. But he helps us through the circumstances, and he gives us peace in it.

    God answers prayers. Innocents suffer. But i have never seen a good or uplifting atheist answer to why innocents suffer because there is not one. But I have seen great Christian answers to this. And after I became Catholic, I saw these answers taken even further as to why there is suffering and how our suffering can be efficacious - like Christ's on the cross is.

    God is just. Innocents suffer in this life but there IS a next life and with God there is perfect justice..

    That's the best I can do in a few words but I assure you there are to such questions that of course are asked. And you aren't going to find one that speaks truth in your heart among atheists.


    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    So first, to say that people either turn to god or curse him in times of hardship is to oversimplify and only address the reactions of believers (be they pious or not), since both options rely on the belief in the existence of god. And second, by making such a statement it sounds like god is moping and, in a way, setting himself up as a figure to be pitied for being misunderstood.
    He is misunderstood and it is painful. He is all love and mercy, and having his love rejected is painful. Having wasted all that suffering for those whom He loves who have the free will to reject him and choose to reject Him and choose evil is painful. He does suffer for us. He suffered then and does now. With Judas it was betrayal, and those of us who have experienced betrayal know who much it hurts. Jesus knows, becaseu he really, really suffered from Judas' betrayal.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    If god exists I doubt he would make such a statement, both bc it contains a fallacy and bc it sounds, well, a little bit whiny.
    Well, love hurts. God is love.

    God wants to save ALL.

    below, re, quote:
    Our God is prepared to act in order to cleanse the
    world

    He is allowing change and the angels
    prepare to act. Jesus says that in times past, even as
    near as the first half of the twentieth century,souls
    were generally obedient. This is not so anymore.
    During this time,souls are generally disobedient.
    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    .... This kind of talk sounds familiar....

    "When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint". - Hesiod, 8th century BC

    "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" - Plato, 4th Century BC

    "The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." - Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 1274

    ...and there are many similar remarks from all across the centuries of recorded remarks. Surely, people have been saying these things since the beginning of people saying anything at all.
    Yes, surely there is nothing new under the sun. Historians can see a rise and fall to civilizations, for example, the really moral ones rise, and after topping off they disintegrate morally, and then their kingdoms fall. Yes, so do you think our civilization is rising or falling? Its pretty obvious to me. I agree with those who expect God to act. The slaughter of innocents and this world not being a good place to raise children is reason enough. So I pray, with many, that it be delayed. It feels to me like it has already been delayed by prayer, and I am glad.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I won't address everything right now, or maybe at all, but this is at least a start. I don't believe this text is legitimate for many reasons. It sounds, frankly, like the writings of someone trying to build a cult following (and in my limited e-research I saw that there is in fact a question not only of the authenticity of this group, but of how their rather significant financial assets are handled).
    Even Jesus had false witnesses. Even Judas had a betrayer among his TWELVE. i have not heard such rumors so I don't know if they are false or if there is some truth behind the questioning over the finances, but then also I would not expect her ministry to do better than Jesus. The thing is, are the words true? That is discernible. It takes a LOT to get an imprimatur, and its says a lot. Also, Jesus, said, "My sheep know my voice". And I am one of His sheep.

    Cult - this cannot be true. I don't think you are looking at the accepted definition of a cult.

    I don't know if this will be useful to you in anyway. I respect your honest reactions to what you read an I am just honestly reacting to what you said. May God bless you with His wondderul peace.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Thank you for the response, @Eliza Thomason.

    I am not ignoring you, but I hesitate to respond bc we are so far apart on the fundamentals that there's no way we will agree, and I don't see the point of arguing over those fundamentals as I can't disprove them just like you (or anyone) can't prove them in a way I find convincing. And I have no interest in changing your mind I actually think it's kind of beautiful how sure you are -- your faith is incredible to me.

    Anyway, this has been interesting. I have been out of the Christian loop for a long time and hadn't heard of this at all.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Last edited by wacey; 04-08-2016 at 11:58 PM.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Last edited by wacey; 04-08-2016 at 11:59 PM.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    "I had a dream that I saw God walking across Harrison on the far side of the lake, a God so gigantic that above the waist He was lost in a clear blue sky. In the dream I could hear the rending crack and splinter of breaking trees as God stamped the woods into the shape of His footsteps. He was circling the lake, coming toward the Bridgton side, toward us, and all the houses and cottages and summer places were bursting into purple-white flame like lightning, and soon the smoke covered everything. The smoke covered everything like a mist."

    Stephen King, The Mist
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I do not know why people think we are living in peaceful times. More people have died in wars in the last century than have died in all conflicts added together in the known history.
    Interesting. Is there a source to back this up? I think most individuals -- in percentage of people as well as total number -- live far more peaceful lives now than they could have expected 100, 1000, 10,000, etc years ago, based on what I've read.

    Plus the power of destruction is greater. The weapons we have, may they be of military power or propaganda power are nothing like has ever been known.
    Lately when I read the newsI find myself thinking of the Dr. Seuss cartoon where the two sides are fighting for some silly reason and both have the type of weapon that could destroy the enemy as well as the world.

    (I agree the world may end as far as humans are concerned (surely some forms of life will soldier on) relatively soon, fwiw.)
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I do not know why people think we are living in peaceful times. More people have died in wars in the last century than have died in all conflicts added together in the known history.

    Plus the power of destruction is greater. The weapons we have, may they be of military power or propaganda power are nothing like has ever been known.
    Negativist

    Yes, I called you that.

    If you ignore the worldwide events of news and stick with what you are working on you won't get so jaded

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Interesting. Is there a source to back this up? I think most individuals -- in percentage of people as well as total number -- live far more peaceful lives now than they could have expected 100, 1000, 10,000, etc years ago, based on what I've read.



    Lately when I read the newsI find myself thinking of the Dr. Seuss cartoon where the two sides are fighting for some silly reason and both have the type of weapon that could destroy the enemy as well as the world.

    (I agree the world may end as far as humans are concerned (surely some forms of life will soldier on) relatively soon, fwiw.)
    We'll be replaced with fuzzy creatures who can reflect heat I love it.

    There's some positive to this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Thank you for the response, @Eliza Thomason.

    I am not ignoring you, but I hesitate to respond bc we are so far apart on the fundamentals that there's no way we will agree, and I don't see the point of arguing over those fundamentals as I can't disprove them just like you (or anyone) can't prove them in a way I find convincing. And I have no interest in changing your mind I actually think it's kind of beautiful how sure you are -- your faith is incredible to me.

    Anyway, this has been interesting. I have been out of the Christian loop for a long time and hadn't heard of this at all.
    Thanks you for your kind response and may God bless your for your kindness.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Interesting. Is there a source to back this up? I think most individuals -- in percentage of people as well as total number -- live far more peaceful lives now than they could have expected 100, 1000, 10,000, etc years ago, based on what I've read.
    I agree.

    Many people fail to take into account world populations during historical war times, along with the death tolls, so comparatively we, and I mean the majority of people on earth today, (I saw an estimate that is 7 billion) are living in much more peaceful times, than our ancestors, especially the last 30 years. The loss should be stated in proportion to population of the time. It has to be taken into account if you want some perspective.

    Of course there is no way to actually know the exact world populations or death tolls during historical wars, crusades, inquisitions/witch hunts . Some sources state that they are probably higher than commonly estimated, so it is a wonder there are so many people alive today.

    I will assume that some fairly intelligent people, who have studied this type of stuff, have some kind of system that allows them to estimate with relative accuracy.

    I am also taking into account things like population growth, better health care, therefore better survival rate if injured, and other relevant information. Life expectancy is higher than ever and modern medicine is only going to prolong it. Earth will find a way to balance the scales before it reaches any critical mass, through natural disasters, if war doesn't do it. Natural disasters bring people together more than push them apart. It culls humanity to keep them from destroying themselves and the earth.

    List of wars by death toll with over 1,000,000 deaths[edit]

    War Deaths Date Location Notes
    World War II 60,000,000–85,000,000 1939–1945 Worldwide see World War II casualties
    Mongol conquests 40,000,000–70,000,000 1206–1324 Eurasia [1][2][3][4]
    Three Kingdoms War 36,000,000–40,000,000 184–280 China [5][6]
    Second Sino-Japanese War 25,000,000 1937–1945 China [7] – Part of World War II
    Qing dynasty conquest of Ming Dynasty 25,000,000 1616–1662 China [8]
    Taiping Rebellion 20,000,000–100,000,000 1850–1864 China [9] – may be underestimated
    World War I/Great War 20,000,000 1914–1918 Worldwide see World War I casualties
    An Lushan Rebellion 13,000,000–36,000,000 755–763 China [10] – may be underestimated
    Conquest of the Americas 8,400,000 - 137,750,000 1492–1691 Americas [11][12][13] See Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas. These death toll estimates vary due to lack of consensus as to the demographic size of the native population pre-Columbus, which some say might never be accurately determined. [14][15][16][15][17]
    Dungan Revolt 8,000,000–20,770,000 1862-1877 China
    Conquests ofTamerlane 8,000,000–20,000,000 1370–1405 Eurasia [18][19]
    Chinese Civil War 8,000,000 1927–1949 China [20]
    Russian Civil War and Foreign Intervention 5,000,000–9,000,000 1917–1922 Russia [21]
    Napoleonic Wars 3,500,000–6,000,000 1803–1815 Europe see Napoleonic Wars casualties
    Thirty Years' War 3,000,000–11,500,000 1618–1648 Europe [22]
    Second Congo War/Great War of Africa 2,500,000–5,400,000 1998–2003 Central Africa [23][24][25][26]
    French Wars of Religion 2,000,000–4,000,000 1562–1598 France [27] – also known as Huguenot Wars
    Goguryeo-Sui War 2,000,000 At Least 598–614 Korea [28] – Korean(Goguryeo) and civilian casualties are not included.
    Shaka's conquests 2,000,000 1816–1828 South Africa [29]
    Korean War 1,200,000 1950–1953 Korea [30]
    Siege of Jerusalem 1,100,000 73 Middle East
    Mexican Revolution 1,000,000–2,000,000 1910–1920 Mexico [31]
    Iran–Iraq War/First Persian Gulf War 1,000,000 1980–1988 Middle East [32]
    Japanese invasions of Korea 1,000,000 1592–1598 Korea [33]
    Biafra War 1,000,000 1967–1970 Nigeria
    Soviet war in Afghanistan 957,865–1,622,865 1979–1989 Afghanistan [34][35][36]
    Conquests of Mehmed II 'the Conqueror' 873,000 1451–1481 Eurasia [37] – may either be underestimated or overestimated
    Seven Years' War 868,000–1,400,000 1756–1763 Europe [38][39]
    Vietnam War/Second Indochina War 800,000–3,800,000 1955–1975 Vietnam [40][41][42]
    List of wars by death toll with fewer than 1,000,000 deaths[edit]






    World historical and predicted populations (in millions)
    [119][120][121]

    Region 1500 1600 1700 1750 1800 1850 1900 1950 1999 2008 2010 2012 2050 2150
    World 458 580 682 791 978 1,262 1,650 2,521 5,978 6,707 6,896 7,052 9,725 9,746
    Africa 86 114 106 106 107 111 133 221 767 973 1,022 1,052 2,478 2,308
    Asia 243 339 436 502 635 809 947 1,402 3,634 4,054 4,164 4,250 5,267 5,561
    Europe 84 111 125 163 203 276 408 547 729 732 738 740 734 517
    Latin America[Note 1] 39 10 10 16 24 38 74 167 511 577 590 603 784 912
    North America[Note 1] 3 3 2 2 7 26 82 172 307 337 345 351 433 398
    Oceania 3 3 3 2 2 2 6 13 30 34 37 38 57 51



    For those who believe the bible is an accurate history book then they have st take the great flood into account to when comparing death tolls due to war and genocide. It is only fair.

    God wiped out humanity except a handful, if you believe it. That must have been by far the worst time to be alive on earth, if you believe it. Many more examples of smiting the wicked in the bible.

    The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
    By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group…. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups….
    So much genocide and smiting. I do wonder where humans learned it was ok...

    *I know there are arguments that god did not commit genocide but by definition that is exactly what is described in the bible. I am somewhat neutral on the idea myself, now.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    There were not prophets, but politics and capitalists wich say like "there are too much people". So some epic "cleansing" may to happen in this century. I see a new global power is establishing and this power I find close to evil, - liberal satanism, new middle ages with social segregation and antihumanism. Without a religion there are bad signs.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    There were not prophets, but politics and capitalists wich say like "there are too much people". So some epic "cleansing" may to happen in this century. I see a new global power is establishing and this power I find close to evil, - liberal satanism, new middle ages with social segregation and antihumanism. Without a religion there are bad signs.
    You don't need a religion to be a compassionate, conscientious person.

    How do you define liberal satanism? How does it differ from conservative satanism?


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    My family does this a lot, as in talking about armageddon/end times/new system of things and all that jazz. I myself am an atheist but at the same time I don't see the point of fussing over religious beliefs, as long others don't force each other into doing things according to their religion.
    Last edited by Muddy; 04-14-2016 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Even Jesus had false witnesses. Even Judas had a betrayer among his TWELVE. i have not heard such rumors so I don't know if they are false or if there is some truth behind the questioning over the finances, but then also I would not expect her ministry to do better than Jesus. The thing is, are the words true? That is discernible. It takes a LOT to get an imprimatur, and its says a lot. Also, Jesus, said, "My sheep know my voice". And I am one of His sheep.

    Cult - this cannot be true. I don't think you are looking at the accepted definition of a cult.

    I don't know if this will be useful to you in anyway. I respect your honest reactions to what you read an I am just honestly reacting to what you said. May God bless you with His wondderul peace.
    How did Judas betray the biblical Jesus? Jesus wanted to die.
    Last edited by Subteigh; 04-21-2016 at 05:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How did Judas betrayed the biblical Jesus? Jesus wanted to die.
    He didn't want to die. He was the ultimate sacrifice. It was god's plan to. It wasn't a choice. Wanting would suggest a choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He didn't want to die. He was the ultimate sacrifice. It was god's plan to. It wasn't a choice. Wanting would suggest a choice.
    Jesus believed he was god, so mentioning god is meaningless here. Also, he did not make the "ultimate sacrifice", as he knew (or believed) that he could choose to live again whenever he wanted. Three and a half days being dead is not much of a sacrifice.

    "I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He didn't want to die. He was the ultimate sacrifice. It was god's plan to. It wasn't a choice. Wanting would suggest a choice.
    Previously, you told me that when you taught about Christianity, you weren't taught about bad people going to hell, and yet here, you seem to have some wider knowledge of the New Testament. What do you believe happens to "bad" people when they die? And what was the reason for this "sacrifice"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Faith and religion are individual and different for everyone. I don't know where you are getting at

    In my family we weren't told that bad people go to hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Cult - this cannot be true. I don't think you are looking at the accepted definition of a cult.
    cult ‎(plural cults)

    1. (offensive, derogatory) A group of people with a religious, philosophical or cultural identity sometimes viewed as a sect, often existing on the margins of society or exploitative towards its members.  
    2. Devotion to a saint.
    3. (informal) A group of people having an obsession with or intense admiration for a particular activity, idea, person or thing.
    It is difficult to see Christianity, especially Catholicism & Orthodoxy, as not being "cults" by any of the above three definitions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    He is misunderstood and it is painful. He is all love and mercy, and having his love rejected is painful. Having wasted all that suffering for those whom He loves who have the free will to reject him and choose to reject Him and choose evil is painful. He does suffer for us. He suffered then and does now. With Judas it was betrayal, and those of us who have experienced betrayal know who much it hurts. Jesus knows, becaseu he really, really suffered from Judas' betrayal.
    What is your all loving and all merciful Jesus' views on suicide? Does he understand such individuals?
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    What is your all loving and all merciful Jesus' views on suicide? Does he understand such individuals?
    Heaven Speaks to Those Considering Suicide
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .


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    These threads seem more like a document of Eliza's mental illness than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have asked @applejacks about this in chat and I want to ask this here, too, because I just cannot wrap my head around it. If you are a kind, loving person, you cannot bear the thought of your loved ones suffering. Not all of your loved ones will share your faith and some might be gay, have sex outside of marriage, masturbate, and what have you with regards to mortal sins. Not all will consider these sins and ask for forgiveness. In other words, you can be sure that, as per your faith, many of the people you love will suffer eternal damnation. How can you rejoice in the prospect of going to heaven when you know people you love are going to suffer? How is that a loving god? I honestly cannot wrap my head around this. How can I believe that a god is kind and loving of he condemns my otherwise kind and loving child to eternal suffering because he is gay, for example?

    Isn't it the most selfish act to rejoice in going to heaven when good and kind people you love will go to hell? You can still love a god who does this? How are you not tormented by that?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    I have asked @applejacks about this in chat and I want to ask this here, too, because I just cannot wrap my head around it. If you are a kind, loving person, you cannot bear the thought of your loved ones suffering. Not all of your loved ones will share your faith and some might be gay, have sex outside of marriage, masturbate, and what have you with regards to mortal sins. Not all will consider these sins and ask for forgiveness. In other words, you can be sure that, as per your faith, many of the people you love will suffer eternal damnation. How can you rejoice in the prospect of going to heaven when you know people you love are going to suffer? How is that a loving god? I honestly cannot wrap my head around this. How can I believe that a god is kind and loving of he condemns my otherwise kind and loving child to eternal suffering because he is gay, for example?

    Isn't it the most selfish act to rejoice in going to heaven when good and kind people you love will go to hell? You can still love a god who does this? How are you not tormented by that?
    Hi Kim-now-Penny! Now I have to get used to your new name! I knew in my life only one Penny, who was a pale strawberry blond with fair skin and freckles and I do not picture you that way! Maybe because she was somewhat a reticent and not-smart person. Then again, maybe the vague idea I have pictured of how you look is completely wrong!

    Your question is a really good one and I am praying for wisdom to answer it well. All I can do is my best.

    Yes, I have experienced this real concern for others going to hell, and such thoughts have been active all my faith life, and understanding has evolved as my Christian faith has evolved. I will write a blog post about my faith background. I started it just now as a way to answer, but I am thinking I really don't want this answer to you to be pages long, in case that's not what you are looking for. So the part about me and my evolving faith, I will put in a blog post, and when I finish it and post it, I will edit this post to have a link to it, in case you are interested. If you are not, that's fine too!

    But I told my husband what I was working on here, and he did a much better job simplifying the answer than I would have. Its not how I would have approached the answer, but its good. And true. So I will repeat it.

    First he said that, as Catholics, we are called upon to be like Christ and to participate in the redemption of the world. Basically, we help to save others and the world with our prayers and our own life's sufferings. Because every one of our sufferings is now elevated with real eternal efficacious MEANING, because we can offer it up for the redemption of the world.

    And I will explain further: The sufferings of Christ's Body were redemptive for the world. And we are the Body of Christ, collectively, and so also, our sufferings redeem our loved ones and the world.. So, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ? What could possibly be lacking in that perfection? Our sufferings, united to His.

    Dh then went outside to work and apparently he did not stop thinking on this because he came back in to say that as far as Catholics are concerned, God does not send anyone to hell for not knowing any better. People condemn themselves by refusing the love and mercy of their Redeemer.

    And I will add to that: a just and merciful God is going to make SURE a person KNOWS what they are rejecting. (And only God knows their thought and understanding!). So those who SEEM to be rejecting now, in many cases - perhaps hopefully: most - they will not reject God when they see themselves and God in the full light of truth, like when they die, and suddenly no longer "see through the glass darkly". Yes, those avid angry atheists, who seem like they are headed to hell, may not be. Only God sees their hearts.

    And here is how He speaks to those who outright reject Him now. Heaven Speaks to Those Who reject God. If you read that, Penny, you will see that a person has every chance - apparently even after they die, as is said here, and that is not contradicted anywhere in scripture or in Catholic teaching - to make a fully informed choice to reject God for eternity, or not.

    The danger I always say is that to put off a decision to seek truth in this life and instead embrace what feels comfortable and fun or easier means those choices could lead to more choices that could ultimately make one hate all good. If you did come to truly hate good, then in the end are you going to want to choose a good God for eternity? With all those good people? And as St. John explains in the booklet above, if you choose to reject God in this life, and choose Him in the end, you will suffer much, much sorrow for rejecting Him in this one life you were given, for this one opportunity to give back to Him who gave you so much. Something to think about. I think about that a lot. How to have less regret when I die for how I spent this life.

    Back to your original question, I spend a lot of time praying for everyone I have even a passing worry about (for some its more than passing!) who seem to reject God. Which includes a lot of people here, whom I quite frequently in my prayers refer to "everyone at 16T" and also I refer to them by name, as I will you, since you brought up this topic and I therefore know God and all things good are also near to your heart. I pray for those who do not know and do not love God because it feels like a sacred responsibility I will be accountable for. After all, faith is a gift from God, not something I earned by being fantastic or anything. And its the best gift of my entire life! Its a gift that makes everything bad that ever happened to me totally worth it, because the worst things of my life brought me closer to God. So I would take all the grief of my life twice, thrice, more, for that gift. Not that I like grief! I complain like everyone else.

    But I expect God to say to me someday, like the parable of the talents: 'So what did you do with the gift I gave you?" And, in my mind, He would ask, "What did you do for that person I put in your life, that I gave you a concern for?". Yes, so I have a responsibility to offer prayer or suffering for them. And spiritual and/or corporal works of mercy.

    Jesus, who is the Way, the Light and the Truth, and Who is our Redeemer, said, "No man comes to the Father except by me." Yes, and in light of that, I offer you this, and may you be blessed: Heaven Speaks to Those Who Don't Know Jesus.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I appreciate the time this might have took, but my question really only requires a simple answer. Does it not torment you that a person you love is damned to eternal damnation by your god? Regardless of your own salvation or their possible salvation, how can you rejoice in the idea of eternal bliss when loved ones will suffer in eternal damnation? It seems utterly selfish to me.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hi Kim-now-Penny! Now I have to get used to your new name! I knew in my life only one Penny, who was a pale strawberry blond with fair skin and freckles and I do not picture you that way! Maybe because she was somewhat a reticent and not-smart person. Then again, maybe the vague idea I have pictured of how you look is completely wrong!
    Uhm, ok?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    Uhm, ok?
    I am a visual thinker, I guess? And names have certain personal connections, that nobody else would have. And that was the only Penny-reference I had, a personal one, and you seem intelligent and direct, vs. not-intelligent and reticient.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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