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Thread: ISTps/SLIs intentionally making their significant others mad

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    Default ISTps/SLIs intentionally making their significant others mad

    I remember ages ago @Slackermom said her SLI husband sometimes seemed to do things to make her mad, and I thought that was weird at the time... several years later, and married to an SLI, I think I understand what she must have been talking about. My husband does it all the time, I guess bc he enjoys my reaction. When I ask him why he always smiles and says that's his job, lol.

    Anyone else experience this?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Yes because they like the drama and to get the sense that you love them. Hidden agenda...to love. And they have a temper that flares up with things that they take in but don't have the ability to verbalize their feelings towards.

    Take care
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-18-2016 at 08:28 PM.

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    @Maritsa, I think you are thinking of SLE hidden agenda: To be Loved. The SLI hidden agenda is: To Love.

    Now, yes, they do seem to be mostly okay with some drama. The SLIs I know often end up with SEEs because they don't mind the drama that SEEs are happy to bring along, and also because SEEs are socially assertive and they are not, and the SLIs are happy to be led-along socially. Especially by a pretty girl. And one "who does not flinch at her own sexuality", well - all the better.

    But as to @sapphire's question - yes, Sapphire, my Dh SLI does this, a little bit, some of the time. And at times, that has touched on past trauma for me, as my ex had serious problems with verbal/emotional abuse and he LIKED to see me uncomfortable but for him, in a serious way (with intent to harm). With SLI, there is NO intent to harm. Its a mild teasing thing. SLI's hidden agenda in fact is "To Love", so they do not manifest this teasing agitation in a way that would jeopardize love, their priority in relationship. In fact, if my husband is doing this (its very subtle), and I feel uncomfortable, since I have great freedom in my relationship with him as a result of feeling protectively and securely loved, I feel free to speak my mind, and I protest rather pointedly that I DON'T LIKE THAT, with a rapid explanation of how it makes me feel (hurt, or reminds me of past trauma) and he stops immediately, and he remembers, and does not do that again. However, if I, instead, just show normal mild (or unconscious) discomfort, and I don't come out and complain or ask him to stop, he will do the same thing again in a similar situation. Its sort of a tease thing. Its interesting because I read here that his SLI type does that, and probably particularly because of past trauma, I always notice when he does, and each time I make a choice inside to let him go ahead or to protest. And it makes me feel secure to know that I can protest, and if I do he will pay attention. And when I don't protest, I just smile inside, and think, "Ok, I know what you are doing, and I'm letting you..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Maritsa, I think you are thinking of SLE hidden agenda: To be Loved. The SLI hidden agenda is: To Love.

    Now, yes, they do seem to be mostly okay with some drama. The SLIs I know often end up with SEEs because they don't mind the drama that SEEs are happy to bring along, and also because SEEs are socially assertive and they are not, and the SLIs are happy to be led-along socially. Especially by a pretty girl. And one "who does not flinch at her own sexuality", well - all the better.

    But as to @sapphire's question - yes, Sapphire, my Dh SLI does this, a little bit, some of the time. And at times, that has touched on past trauma for me, as my ex had serious problems with verbal/emotional abuse and he LIKED to see me uncomfortable but for him, in a serious way (with intent to harm). With SLI, there is NO intent to harm. Its a mild teasing thing. SLI's hidden agenda in fact is "To Love", so they do not manifest this teasing agitation in a way that would jeopardize love, their priority in relationship. In fact, if my husband is doing this (its very subtle), and I feel uncomfortable, since I have great freedom in my relationship with him as a result of feeling protectively and securely loved, I feel free to speak my mind, and I protest rather pointedly that I DON'T LIKE THAT, with a rapid explanation of how it makes me feel (hurt, or reminds me of past trauma) and he stops immediately, and he remembers, and does not do that again. However, if I, instead, just show normal mild (or unconscious) discomfort, and I don't come out and complain or ask him to stop, he will do the same thing again in a similar situation. Its sort of a tease thing. Its interesting because I read here that his SLI type does that, and probably particularly because of past trauma, I always notice when he does, and each time I make a choice inside to let him go ahead or to protest. And it makes me feel secure to know that I can protest, and if I do he will pay attention. And when I don't protest, I just smile inside, and think, "Ok, I know what you are doing, and I'm letting you..."
    Yes. They really like taking care of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Yes because they like the drama and to get the sense that you love them. Hidden agenda...to love. And they have a temper that flares up with things that they take in but don't have the ability to verbalize their feelings towards.

    Take care
    I agree they like the drama...at least to an extent, and a healthy IEE doesn't bring too much drama for a healthy SLI in my experience and observation. It genuinely cracks my husband up sometimes to annoy me or intentionally rile me up. (I should clarify he doesn't do truly hurtful things to hurt me on purpose, ever.)

    And it probably does reassure them that you care


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Maritsa, I think you are thinking of SLE hidden agenda: To be Loved. The SLI hidden agenda is: To Love.

    Now, yes, they do seem to be mostly okay with some drama. The SLIs I know often end up with SEEs because they don't mind the drama that SEEs are happy to bring along, and also because SEEs are socially assertive and they are not, and the SLIs are happy to be led-along socially. Especially by a pretty girl. And one "who does not flinch at her own sexuality", well - all the better.

    But as to @sapphire's question - yes, Sapphire, my Dh SLI does this, a little bit, some of the time. And at times, that has touched on past trauma for me, as my ex had serious problems with verbal/emotional abuse and he LIKED to see me uncomfortable but for him, in a serious way (with intent to harm). With SLI, there is NO intent to harm. Its a mild teasing thing. SLI's hidden agenda in fact is "To Love", so they do not manifest this teasing agitation in a way that would jeopardize love, their priority in relationship. In fact, if my husband is doing this (its very subtle), and I feel uncomfortable, since I have great freedom in my relationship with him as a result of feeling protectively and securely loved, I feel free to speak my mind, and I protest rather pointedly that I DON'T LIKE THAT, with a rapid explanation of how it makes me feel (hurt, or reminds me of past trauma) and he stops immediately, and he remembers, and does not do that again. However, if I, instead, just show normal mild (or unconscious) discomfort, and I don't come out and complain or ask him to stop, he will do the same thing again in a similar situation. Its sort of a tease thing. Its interesting because I read here that his SLI type does that, and probably particularly because of past trauma, I always notice when he does, and each time I make a choice inside to let him go ahead or to protest. And it makes me feel secure to know that I can protest, and if I do he will pay attention. And when I don't protest, I just smile inside, and think, "Ok, I know what you are doing, and I'm letting you..."
    Good point on SLIs ending up w SEEs -- I have seen that too, and it's probably a lot easier a relationship to get started than IEE-SLI relationships, in a lot of cases.

    Your experience and mine seem to be similar.

    It's one of the things that keep duality from being boring, I think...duals get along so well, but are still so different and w silly little...what to call them? Even "spats" is too strong a word...things stay interesting, at least ime.
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-19-2016 at 05:49 PM.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    With Si, often the parameters are sensed with the change in the object. Like he'll say something to see if you'll get pissed then maybe he knows now what will tick you off. Often it's to feel your changing moods and boundaries. Like Si will sense when you're in pain and not say anything but to lay with you to keep things relaxed and calm or he'll say things that will be an attempt to get you strong and pull yourself out of it by expressing his OWN experience (he is after all an introvert) "you don't know what pain is like...When I crashed in my motorcycle and had 10 surgeries I was in pain" doesn't sound pleasant and reassuring and maybe it will piss you off. It is meant to get a feel for you, to get sympathy from you and even to get you to think about and realize that something worse isn't on your plate.

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    I asked my husband about this the other day and he said, "Sometimes it's to test the relationship, to make sure the other person really cares," which I thought was a fascinating response from someone who knows socionics exists but knows nothng really about it (unless he's a secret lurker...are you here, reading this? lol). He's a really self-aware person in general imo, but that answer was textbook SLI... except for the fact that he actually gave it, haha
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    I have seen this in SLI's but they don't like it when it's done to them. It can easily become abusive as well.

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    Can also confirm with SLI ex. It was usually discernable by a smirk or trying to hold back a smile, especially after i started to react.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I asked my husband about this the other day and he said, "Sometimes it's to test the relationship, to make sure the other person really cares," which I thought was a fascinating response from someone who knows socionics exists but knows nothng really about it (unless he's a secret lurker...are you here, reading this? lol). He's a really self-aware person in general imo, but that answer was textbook SLI... except for the fact that he actually gave it, haha
    That's one thing LSE don't do.

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    Yeah sometimes i would make it a Thing even though i knew it was never meant to be a Thing because i wanted him to know he'd reap what he sowed. If you're going to start something don't be surprised if someone runs with it.

    It wasn't all that bad though- a lot of the time i didn't mind. It just got tiresome when it was like every day and that sort of banter comprised a huge percent of our interaction. I would start to feel disrespected, like my feelings were a toy to him.

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    Like, all impish "hehe I'm such an asshole and you're my long suffering woman." but uh...id rather not suffer? Thanks

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    Whoa, wait.

    Just to clarify, it is always little things he does; he's not a jerk. Often they're things I don't even see as related to the state of the relationship or showing I care by getting irritated. One (rather lame, I'm afraid) example is bringing a half-filled glass of water instead of a full one when I ask for one while feeding our daughter, then refusing to get more unless I drink that first (I drink a ton of water, so half a glass is not going to quench my thirst when I'm nursing/trapped on the couch and he knows it).

    There are other, better examples, but they escape me at the moment. The point is that these aren't big, emotionally abusive things I'm talking about.

    Actually, let me go ahead and make a disclaimer: doing mean things to make someone (especially your significant other, imo) angry or sad = being a jerk, and is not type-related, and should not be tolerated. What I'm talking about SLIs doing is small things that get a rise out of their partners, but don't actually damage trust or the relationship.

    IEEs have Fi in second position...healthy ones have pretty high standards for relationships (which, incidentally, is one of the things my husband likes about me, even if he does enjoy pushing my buttons from time to time)
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-21-2016 at 11:39 PM. Reason: clarity
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Actually, here's an example of him doing something that, in hindsight, was to guage my reaction:

    When we were first dating I was working in a job I didn't really like or see as my end goal, but I worked hard at it anyway and it was important to me to do well. One day he sent me a text asking how my day was going and making a joke about my job, and I took it as an insult (he had plausible deniability, but I felt insulted even if he was or could say he was only joking). This was after just a few dates and I didn't know him that well, and the comment/joke made me mad and I basically told him off via text message. His response was an apology and we talked about it, and he never made such a joke/comment again, out of respect for me/my job; to the contrary, he was incredibly supportive and encouraging bc he knew it was important to me.

    Looking back I think he was seeing whether I would stand up for myself, which I did; he withstood the storm of my anger/irritation; and we were back on track by our next date.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Yeah, it usually wasn't any worse than the glass of water sort of thing. I just don't like that sort of thing on a regular daily sort of basis. Constantly being taunted got draining and made me angry.

    I also look like i was just ranting out of nowhere since someone deleted their posts lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post

    I also look like i was just ranting out of nowhere since someone deleted their posts lol.
    lol, I saw it
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    My SLI doesn't really intend to make me mad, but he'll definitely tease and do dorky things to get my attention. When he's in that mode, he'll say my name in the most annoying way, so I usually find something equally annoying to say back. Or I just tell him to stop. He handles that sort of honesty very well.

    Also, he CAN'T STAND IT when he's seeking my attention and doesn't get it. I usually give laser-like focus to a person, and when he doesn't get it because I'm tired or moody, he'll go so far as to put his head on my shoulder and say something cute and sweet.

    @sapphire - you make that man give you a full glass of water!




    EDIT: I'm also noticing more and more that he doesn't like it when he's home alone without me. I stayed out until 11pm last Wednesday socializing with his mom, dad, and sister while he stayed home, and he (unsuccessfully) tried to guilt trip me for being alone for so long. Maybe that has to do with the attention thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Whoa, wait.

    Just to clarify, it is always little things he does; he's not a jerk. Often they're things I don't even see as related to the state of the relationship or showing I care by getting irritated. One (rather lame, I'm afraid) example is bringing a half-filled glass of water instead of a full one when I ask for one while feeding our daughter, then refusing to get more unless I drink that first (I drink a ton of water, so half a glass is not going to quench my thirst when I'm nursing/trapped on the couch and he knows it).

    There are other, better examples, but they escape me at the moment. The point is that these aren't big, emotionally abusive things I'm talking about.

    Actually, let me go ahead and make a disclaimer: doing mean things to make someone (especially your significant other, imo) angry or sad = being a jerk, and is not type-related, and should not be tolerated. What I'm talking about SLIs doing is small things that get a rise out of their partners, but don't actually damage trust or the relationship.

    IEEs have Fi in second position...healthy ones have pretty high standards for relationships (which, incidentally, is one of the things my husband likes about me, even if he does enjoy pushing my buttons from time to time)
    It's still often sadistic, and you'll be surprised how long term effects can make things intolerable, but some people can check it better or keep them from being total tools about it. A lot of people especially men are quite entitled and SLI are kind of dense imo.

    If it's enough for you to talk about it here, it's already enough that this is ingrained into your memory, that makes it fairly noticeable by you already. It might be nothing, it might be something.

    The whole thing with water seems very off imo, if you don't like it tell him to not do that anymore.

    The behavior he's doing imo is abusive, because it shows he's in control and you're not and that's the purpose. It's not just to get your angry, but to make you feel helpless when you're in a vulnerable position. He should stop if he respects you when you ask, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    My SLI doesn't really intend to make me mad, but he'll definitely tease and do dorky things to get my attention. When he's in that mode, he'll say my name in the most annoying way, so I usually find something equally annoying to say back. Or I just tell him to stop. He handles that sort of honesty very well.

    Also, he CAN'T STAND IT when he's seeking my attention and doesn't get it. I usually give laser-like focus to a person, and when he doesn't get it because I'm tired or moody, he'll go so far as to put his head on my shoulder and say something cute and sweet.

    @sapphire - you make that man give you a full glass of water!




    EDIT: I'm also noticing more and more that he doesn't like it when he's home alone without me. I stayed out until 11pm last Wednesday socializing with his mom, dad, and sister while he stayed home, and he (unsuccessfully) tried to guilt trip me for being alone for so long. Maybe that has to do with the attention thing.
    lol since I'm such a home body my SLI ex too loved me being at home all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    lol since I'm such a home body my SLI ex too loved me being at home all the time.
    I bet he did! Mine doesn't want to do anything social without me, and doesn't like being apart for long periods of time. But I've found its healthy to practice that interdependence and take an occasional trip away every so often.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Yeah, it usually wasn't any worse than the glass of water sort of thing. I just don't like that sort of thing on a regular daily sort of basis. Constantly being taunted got draining and made me angry.

    I also look like i was just ranting out of nowhere since someone deleted their posts lol.
    Sorry I thought about it and I felt weird when I thought about how others would read either of my posts without more background. If I had read yours following mine I would not have deleted. I try not to do that but now I clearly see it followed what I said.

    She was not ranting guys.

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    @applejacks -- I agree having seperate hobbies/interests/whatever can be a really good/healthy thing. And missing each other a little from time to time helps you appreciate each other even more :-) Does he have any hobbies he does without you?

    @mu4 -- I see where you're coming from if it were to actually be mean or deprive me, but it was just to rile me up; after I complained (loudly, lol) he went and got the full glass like I'd assumed he would bring in the first place. It was a, "You asked for water but didn't specify how much" smartass thing -- he was joking around, giving me a hard time. I could have started a thread on SLIs treating their significant others extremely well, but the teasing/riling up reminded me of another IEE's comment from long ago (referenced in opening post). He's probably the most tender, caring person I've ever met...though he is a prize smartass
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    @sapphire - strangely, most of our hobbies and interests are separate for us. He meticulously cleans his car at least twice a week in the spring/summer, but that's the extent of his outdoor time. I love being outside- biking, kayaking, running, playing frisbee with the dog. He'd rather lift weights at the gym. We come together for video games, movies, dinners, but our other activities we usually do alone or with friends.

    There's literally no way that he and I would have met and married had we not met online. He spent all his time studying and weight lifting. I was working, kayaking until sunset, and then out dancing at some cover band concert.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    @applejacks -- I agree having seperate hobbies/interests/whatever can be a really good/healthy thing. And missing each other a little from time to time helps you appreciate each other even more :-) Does he have any hobbies he does without you?

    @mu4 -- I see where you're coming from if it were to actually be mean or deprive me, but it was just to rile me up; after I complained (loudly, lol) he went and got the full glass like I'd assumed he would bring in the first place. It was a, "You asked for water but didn't specify how much" smartass thing -- he was joking around, giving me a hard time. I could have started a thread on SLIs treating their significant others extremely well, but the teasing/riling up reminded me of another IEE's comment from long ago (referenced in opening post). He's probably the most tender, caring person I've ever met...though he is a prize smartass
    It's good he stopped but doing it consistently over a period of time can result in eventual contempt. Some people can handle it, others won't tolerate it. Entitlement sort of creeps up on you and it grows unless someone recognizes that the entitlement is not something they're actually entitled to. It's easy to be nice when you think you're in control, but stress can change things a lot.

    It's not just that, they're doing it because at a certain level there is anxiety they're feeling, and to reassert control they rile you up. People aren't perfect and we all have some sort of behavioral patterns, I'm analyzing this because a bunch of red flags pop in my head because of this and that's how I see the world, these days I don't ignore my red flags or keep them silent anymore.

    Also the part with "the most", it's ok to think this and a certain level it's true but it's also a blinder.

    This behavior I've seen quite a bit from SLI's I've known and lived with, and it escalates. People also think this is the "nicest" guy. Maybe IEE is a type that can handle this teasing better, since I have seen IEE's give it pretty good too.

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    @applejacks -- that's funny. We're similar again haha: like you guys, we have totally different hobbies and would probably not have ever met if not for online dating

    @mu4 -- I understand, and it's interesting to get your perspective. (And yeah, it's definitely back-and-forth w us, haha.)
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 03-22-2016 at 03:52 PM.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    typical dual does nothing systematicly to bring negative feelings
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    typical dual does nothing systematicly to bring negative feelings
    Duals don't bring negative feelings? Is that what you are trying to say?

    I can make my dual feel guilty from their improper action. That's classically how Fi works with LSE now That makes LSE feel bad about their bad behavior

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    sapphire,

    SLIs can easily rub people the wrong way because they defend themselves by throwing barbs, many times blindly, over their defensive walls; this is their preferred method of pressure release because the alternative would be to physically strike. Their walls can be quite high so as to mask their insecurities and or frustrations, and to present an image of control and strength. Being made mad is a matter of perception by the person who is mad. If one looks at the SLI as not the pillar of strength that s/he pretends to be, that SLI would not appear as threatening or irritating; SLI is primarily a defensive type and not an aggressor unless he feels slighted or threatened. Unfortunately, Fi can be rather sensitive to barbs but often won't voice the 'ouch', and instead will stew.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    sapphire,

    SLIs can easily rub people the wrong way because they defend themselves by throwing barbs, many times blindly, over their defensive walls; this is their preferred method of pressure release because the alternative would be to physically strike. Their walls can be quite high so as to mask their insecurities and or frustrations, and to present an image of control and strength. Being made mad is a matter of perception by the person who is mad. If one looks at the SLI as not the pillar of strength that s/he pretends to be, that SLI would not appear as threatening or irritating; SLI is primarily a defensive type and not an aggressor unless he feels slighted or threatened. Unfortunately, Fi can be rather sensitive to barbs but often won't voice the 'ouch', and instead will stew.

    a.k.a. I/O
    The forum is where Fi types Stew

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    Marista,

    Any social media, where there is distance between the pulpit and the flock, is ideal for INFjs because they normally have lots of morality to preach but can be afraid of the repercussions. There are similarities with INTj except that we're not concerned with morality.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Marista,

    Any social media, where there is distance between the pulpit and the flock, is ideal for INFjs because they normally have lots of morality to preach but can be afraid of the repercussions. There are similarities with INTj except that we're not concerned with morality.....

    a.k.a. I/O
    Yes

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I remember ages ago @Slackermom said her SLI husband sometimes seemed to do things to make her mad, and I thought that was weird at the time... several years later, and married to an SLI, I think I understand what she must have been talking about. My husband does it all the time, I guess bc he enjoys my reaction. When I ask him why he always smiles and says that's his job, lol.

    Anyone else experience this?
    Hi, you started this when I had little time to write and I wanted to get back to it. When I read this post to my dear SLI husband, when you posted it, his response was to laugh (like he understood perfectly) at your husband's answer here.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I asked my husband about this the other day and he said, "Sometimes it's to test the relationship, to make sure the other person really cares," which I thought was a fascinating response from someone who knows Socionics exists but knows nothing really about it (unless he's a secret lurker...are you here, reading this? lol). He's a really self-aware person in general imo, but that answer was textbook SLI... except for the fact that he actually gave it, haha
    That's interesting and probably exactly why my husband does it. Fits in the scenario I am about to explain. I had it in mind when you wrote this and thought If I start telling this little happening its going to get too long, as I am still thinking it through. But I will attempt to explain it, as you did ask for specific examples here somewhere, I remember.

    During Lent I was trying to practice all manner of self-control and of course everything conspires against me. Including myself, as no one suggests one should reform everything for Lent. But "everything" seemed a good idea to me. I was primarily focusing on eating very simply and not wasting time before screens. Yet I still found time to waste and was on eBay, something I hadn't done in awhile, so - "different" screen time?, and unexpectedly I stumbled upon the perfect dining room hanging lamp, exactly what the dining area needs, for a great price. Dh agreed it was quite nice, too, and I persuaded him we had to get this perfect one-of-a-kind now, and he conceded, and it came quick and he installed that day. Then he re-installed it the next day because the hanging chain was too short, so it was not exactly right, so he redid the whole thing. He is awesome.

    [I tried to load a pic but I have to have my husband shrink since this forum won't accept it too big.]

    Anyway, after the perfect lamp was in place, the other design/placement failings in the room were suddenly more apparent. Also probably Lenten restrictions gave me more time to notice. So I started to fix these problems. First by rearranging and rehanging about everything the room (LR/DR) - making better do with what I had. That's good. But I was focused, and now seeing just what the room "needed", I went about single-mindedly solving those "needs", ordering things, perfect wall pockets (after looking at 100's), perfect butterpats (also after looking at 100s - who knew there were so many!) to hang in this little spot, a perfect tiny holy water font for this spot, a better frame for this.. another wall shelf for here. My "presents" (as I referred to them) began to pour in as I was almost finished making the room "just right". But my self-indulgence made me feel guilty as it conflicts with other ideas I have, and with the idea of the season, but I ignored this and carried on . DH certainly saw my unexplained conflicted state when new presents arrived, and this is where I think he intentionally got a bit provoking, to get at the mystery of what was bothering me (which I was trying to ignore).

    Anyway I had to deal with my own feelings/conscience and his little pricks, but the latter is easier, once I realized what he was doing (which I did not see at first - only reacted to - which happens to me quite a bit, actually).

    [aside: I just asked my husband to get me more water in my cup, and he did, and it was less than half a cup! How strange! Considering what else is in this thread! I need to get up and get more! He did say he is anxious for us to get to bed... hmm].

    Well let me finish here and be good to him since he is so good to me and honors all my requests. Once I realized what he was doing, it was easy enough to ask him to stop. I explained to him why I was uncomfortable after I sorted it out with myself. I just think I cannot hide my own emotions so well, so they show even before I "get" them, and he wants to get at the meaning of what he sees (my emotions) that I have not explained. So I just told him, I feel guilty for wasting my time and our resources on frivolity, but I am getting a lot out of this and I am almost done so I want to finish.... Anyway, he gets it and is not bugging me now. But he happened to be doing that when you wrote your OP, and I had not resolved that or my feelings at the time...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ...is ideal for INFjs because they normally have lots of morality to preach but can be afraid of the repercussions. There are similarities with INTj except that we're not concerned with morality.....
    I think morality transcends type, just as religion, culture, etc. does. My INTj freind is quite moral. She returned to her Catholic faith after achieving with her brains and hard work true worldly success. Then one day it hit her, strong, that the things she was concerned with were not the things that matter in life, and that was a moment/day of true conversion for her. I know her as a person devoted and knowledgeable about her faith, and she often applies her superior intellect to the question of what is moral and right. (And she is courageous about repercussions for stating these things - perhaps that's type-related).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Fi is not morals, Fi is relationships. Fi-leading can assess the nature of relationships easily and depending on their type, influence, counsel, call to action, etc. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, just with natural inclination to be concerned with and able to easily size up the psychological and emotional distance between people and the nature of their relationship.

    As for the topic, it is my experience, too, that SLIs poke to get attention. They also test your love and loyalty. This becomes a problem when you have an insecure SLI who goes overboard with this.

    I don't think SLIs like drama - they like energy and feeling alive. They like it when they throw a (verbal) barb and you chase them around the house with a Windex bottle or get flustered and frustrated and start lecturing them until they look at you with SLI smirk and you burst out laughing or you say "stop being a jackass and take me to IHOP." They like bursts of energy, but it has to be non-threatening energy and it has to lead to a sense of unity - we are silly together, we understand each other, we take care of each other. They don't like drama and fights and negativity.
    Last edited by Kim; 04-10-2016 at 03:22 PM.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    sapphire,

    SLIs can easily rub people the wrong way because they defend themselves by throwing barbs, many times blindly, over their defensive walls; this is their preferred method of pressure release because the alternative would be to physically strike. Their walls can be quite high so as to mask their insecurities and or frustrations, and to present an image of control and strength. Being made mad is a matter of perception by the person who is mad. If one looks at the SLI as not the pillar of strength that s/he pretends to be, that SLI would not appear as threatening or irritating; SLI is primarily a defensive type and not an aggressor unless he feels slighted or threatened. Unfortunately, Fi can be rather sensitive to barbs but often won't voice the 'ouch', and instead will stew.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Yes, this sounds pretty spot on for me. A typical dysfunctional IEE-SLI relationship for me would be an insecure SLI who does this to excess (and includes barbs poking fun at insecurities) and an IEE who puts up with it and suffers in silence while it chips away at their self-esteem. SLI is oblivious to this and is surprised when IEE packs and leaves.

    A healthy SLI will be concerned with IEE boundaries and pay close attention to their reactions to their barbs. They first of all want to take care, not poke, so they would put their IEE's well-being above all. A healthy IEE would communicate discomfort clearly so this way they would wiggle into a space in which the barbs are received in good fun and communication of discomfort is productive.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I agree, there are certain moral traits that transcend type and culture, the basics of these are:

    Don't harm someone who has not previously harmed you, or does not intend to do so.
    You can harm someone who intends to harm you or in retaliation for harm they have done to you
    One good turn deserves another
    The strong should have consideration for the weak
    Don't lie
    Abide faithfully by any promises or agreements you have made

    It makes me wonder about the whole idea of Fi being morals. I feel something isn't right with this, but i'm not sure what yet. It is to me similar to the idea that Si is healthy which people translate to cooking and such. Health is useful to Si because if the senses are sharper (healthier) then senses can be better experienced.

    I wonder how Fi fits into this, maybe morals can be a by product, similar to the 'health' of Si. I see Fi in terms of connections, the ability to manipulate the distance so I feel close to the Fi person, so this can take the form of being understanding and kind about how I approach things (ie the whole getting to know you, understanding rather than judging which is attributable to Fi), or if the Fi person is particularly cross or has an innately internal unpleasant disposition (for whatever reason) they will use their own view of morals, the world, to create a distance and judge the offender in their eyes.

    So I suppose this is how Fi with Se can be seen as more enforcing of morals, and Fi with Ne can be seen as more compassionate, the Ne is able to see the whole picture and therefore not judge in set examples only.

    Of course, it also depends on the inate disposition of said Fi type.

    In harmonious conditions, the Fi type is able to create the conditions for the right level of emotional distance, ie everyone gets on, to do this it often evokes kindness and understanding (traits I like about Fi), but it can also evoke morals (ie the right set of morals so everyone gets on), or something like this. What are your thoughts?

    You too @Rebelondeck, if you care to comment, would be much appreciated also.
    It seems to me that anyone can form relationships. It's basic human trait. Fi is static person ethics. Fi Introverted Ethics: internal harmony, resonance or dissonance of personal sentiments, sympathy, pity, compassion, support, condemnation, judgement, positive and negative emotional space

    It has a tendency to moralize as a social group securing factor. "We shouldn't say that it hurts her feelings and she doesn't want to participate in the project" you need everyone`s cooperation and togetherness for things to work well and survival to be viable. It's driven by sensitivity and feelings for people because it can absorb emotional attachment and emotions and want to reach out and talk to them Ultimately to include them.

    It's a social survival adaptation. Fi positive extends outward to include more people in the mix Fi negative may contract the group (?) They work in different ways on society. Fi positive can think of people that they've never met in preparation for inevitable encounter...that has Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I agree, there are certain moral traits that transcend type and culture, the basics of these are:

    Don't harm someone who has not previously harmed you, or does not intend to do so.
    You can harm someone who intends to harm you or in retaliation for harm they have done to you
    One good turn deserves another
    The strong should have consideration for the weak
    Don't lie
    Abide faithfully by any promises or agreements you have made
    Yes, I agree - morality is outside of type. I agree the above are morals are what most good persons agree to. Then there are those who do violence to their conscience and it hardens and then they have their own set of values, like, "What's in it for me?". I cannot believe I heard this said to me more than once by someone I had in my life too long, so long that I began to not see this persons hardness, and did not protest the extreme wrongness of that (in the context it was said).

    And I agree also with another thing that is said: that the laws of God are written on our hearts.


    Now below what you wrote is more challenging for me to respond to. I can see Ne is a part of your nature because you are okay discussing this vs. someone who wants to keep the subject more to reality you can see, hear, taste, touch. My Ne is happy with the former, too, but, I seem to approach typing differently than you, and different from some others here on 16T, I have noticed as well. In fact that got me thinking about how I type and I am going to post on that later and hopefully other people will want to explain their approach as well. Meanwhile I'll respond to this:



    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    It makes me wonder about the whole idea of Fi being morals. I feel something isn't right with this, but i'm not sure what yet.
    I think a moral way of looking at things has, or can have, something to do with Fi specifically but its not generally how I see Fi. And all the types use Fi differently depending on where it is in their Model A, and what else it primarily plays off of.. Yet I often peg a person willing to point out a thing as being moral or immoral as to be more often Delta, though that's not across the board.


    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    It is to me similar to the idea that Si is healthy which people translate to cooking and such. Health is useful to Si because if the senses are sharper (healthier) then senses can be better experienced. I wonder how Fi fits into this, maybe morals can be a by product, similar to the 'health' of Si.
    I don't know, and I am not sure I totally see "health of Si". Like my Si husband has a more conscious approach to protecting his health than sometimes me, and he is basically sensible, but I think I make healthier choices in other ways, so its hard to say what "health of Si" is. Also, I like cooking more than my SLI husband does, AND I am picker about cooking properly, like, very picky right temps (don't smoke oil, ever - if I mistakenly do I dump it and start over) and meat not to well done, veggies never over-cooked, etc.) and picky about quality of food, not only for taste but for health (in particular, though I avoid extra driving yet I drive a bit to get raw milk and fresh farm eggs...(my husband likes to say I won't accept an egg unless I lay it myself!). This is part due to being Enneagram -1, I think, but for whatever reason I had a realization some years ago that my doctor's approach was wrong, found a natural approach that worked, and have researched natural health solutions ever since, coming to believe that there is probably an alternative approach to everything the doctor says. So far it seems so... so when it comes to reforming health, its more me helping my husband. However, he DOES help me. He notices if I am indoors too much or need fresh air adn sunshine and a good walk outdoors. He thinks of these things, and helps me to.

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    I see Fi in terms of connections, the ability to manipulate the distance so I feel close to the Fi person, so this can take the form of being understanding and kind about how I approach things (ie the whole getting to know you, understanding rather than judging which is attributable to Fi),
    yes

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    or if the Fi person is particularly cross or has an innately internal unpleasant disposition (for whatever reason) they will use their own view of morals, the world, to create a distance and judge the offender in their eyes.
    I have seen this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    So I suppose this is how Fi with Se can be seen as more enforcing of morals,
    Maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    and Fi with Ne can be seen as more compassionate, the Ne is able to see the whole picture and therefore not judge in set examples only.
    may also yes, but both these probably have more to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    Of course, it also depends on the innate disposition of said Fi type.
    Or, since those with Fi often have strong emotional reactions to things - be they expressed or suppressed - it might depend on the mood.


    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    In harmonious conditions, the Fi type is able to create the conditions for the right level of emotional distance, ie everyone gets on, to do this it often evokes kindness and understanding (traits I like about Fi), but it can also evoke morals (ie the right set of morals so everyone gets on), or something like this. What are your thoughts?
    I agree with all of this!

    Best I can do, as I think I take a different approach, which I will explore in another post, another time.

    ___________

    More on "health of Si" - while as I said, my SLI husband helps me in this way, in ways that are really helpful, like I noted, and also noticing when I am stressed before I notice it, and moving in what I am doing, to help me do things to relieve the stress I am feeling. Yet, we both care for my Mom (late stage Alzheimer's), and she has an awful habit which neither my SLI or any doctor has been any help in alleviating but I have had the most success. Partly its determination - if someone tells me there is "no" answer/solution to a problem, and I instead think that there must be, somewhere, then I search and persist until I find it. And I tend to pour all my concentration on it til I do. And in this case I have found a solution, at least an 80% one. And it makes me more annoyed with her doctors whom should have solved this, though. And making me think, once again, what good are doctors, anyway? (I am sure they are good for something, just nothing I have come across in my own life experience).
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 04-10-2016 at 05:24 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by yen View Post
    @Kim, and @Maritsa thank you.

    At the OP, sorry if this was a tangent to your thread, I didn't think of this at first, until afterwards.

    As for the OP question, I apologize if this is not quite following your line of questioning, but I gave it some thought and what I have noticed in general, is that men often will tease a woman and the woman will not always realize it, i've seen this happen in relationships and also at the flirting stage, and i've seen it happen with different types.

    An ESE once said to me, that he was winding up the women in our group, simply because they were women. I don't think his intent was to be sexist, it was just the male-female dynamic.

    I also know an EII who claims she does not like to be ... annoyed or poked at, but then when we don't do it (myself and some friends) she complains about feeling left out.

    I have found myself doing this teasing thing before, and the girl wasn't quite sure how to take it, my SLI friend said to her somewhat firmly, "He is flirting with you."

    Although I have found myself less inclined to tease, because I don't want to be misinterpreted.
    I get when an LSE teases with me. It's just that when I'm in a serious mood it won't fly as expected because I continue talking in my serious manner, tone, or line, if I was on that mood.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-11-2016 at 06:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Fi is not morals, Fi is relationships. Fi-leading can assess the nature of relationships easily and depending on their type, influence, counsel, call to action, etc. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, just with natural inclination to be concerned with and able to easily size up the psychological and emotional distance between people and the nature of their relationship.

    As for the topic, it is my experience, too, that SLIs poke to get attention. They also test your love and loyalty. This becomes a problem when you have an insecure SLI who goes overboard with this.

    I don't think SLIs like drama - they like energy and feeling alive. They like it when they throw a (verbal) barb and you chase them around the house with a Windex bottle or get flustered and frustrated and start lecturing them until they look at you with SLI smirk and you burst out laughing or you say "stop being a jackass and take me to IHOP." They like bursts of energy, but it has to be non-threatening energy and it has to lead to a sense of unity - we are silly together, we understand each other, we take care of each other. They don't like drama and fights and negativity.
    Absolutely.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Absolutely.
    Which part are you agreeing to.

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