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    Default Examples of Conflictor Interactions

    SLE (Trump) and EII (Cooper)





    EIE (Charlize Theron) and SLI (Letterman)


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    LSI (Nicholas Hoult) and IEE (Jonathan Ross)



    ESI (Uma Thurman) and ILE (Russell Brand)


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    Trump - ENFJ
    Nicholas Hoult - ENTP
    Uma Thurman- INTJ
    Russell Brand - INFP
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I'll give an example.

    One day our phones went out because of electrical issues and the SLE coworker was asked to help with the phone system. When someone contributes their assistance I have a tendency to complement them by highlighting their efforts so I said (I'll change the name to BOB) "Wow, Bob look at you. You're the phone guy. Nice." What he did was instead of taking this as a compliment of his efforts he laughed saying "wow, Bob. ahahahah" I thought why won't you acknowledge my praise of you? LSE would feel pride, proud of this acknowledgement because they like the attention and being noted. He just ignored me and that made me feel unappreciated for having noticed him. As if it didn't matter. In this way conflict will build because after a while I won't get the feedback that I'm looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'll give an example.

    One day our phones went out because of electrical issues and the SLE coworker was asked to help with the phone system. When someone contributes their assistance I have a tendency to complement them by highlighting their efforts so I said (I'll change the name to BOB) "Wow, Bob look at you. You're the phone guy. Nice." What he did was instead of taking this as a compliment of his efforts he laughed saying "wow, Bob. ahahahah" I thought why won't you acknowledge my praise of you? LSE would feel pride, proud of this acknowledgement because they like the attention and being noted. He just ignored me and that made me feel unappreciated for having noticed him. As if it didn't matter. In this way conflict will build because after a while I won't get the feedback that I'm looking for.
    Maritsa, I have a SLE son and I will tell you don't look for this from SLE or you will be disappointed! He is not likely to show you that you are appreciated, especially not in any of the ways you'd normally hope for it. Don't try to get this feedback. Just be you, say your little compliment, and don't expect any smile or thanks back! I used to pray, "God, can I please have a compliment?" That's how I'd get my compliment fix if I was starving for that in one of those long difficult stretches i went thought. [meaning, I relax, because I asked, and wait for God to send someone to give me some compliment eventually, and someone would.] Looking for it in my son would not help. In fact, I think the demand makes them hold back. However, he shows me respect and appreciation in unexpected ways when I am not expecting it, and not how I am expecting it, and particularly when I don't ask for it. Asking it or expecting it - I think that's a SLE irritant. I think its like saying, "Where are your soft and nice feelings?? You are supposed to have soft and nice feelings!! You are deficient!!" Because they are in their logical mind a lot, and its like saying, "The way you are is not okay; you need to be more like me." I think for Conflictors its good to see how their Duals are with them and try to play that role a bit. [I got that from something @Jeremy said here somewhere; a good tip...].

    Consider that SLE's hidden agenda is "To Be Loved", and they will be not appreciate insincere compliments. So more specific: "Thanks so much for working on the phones. I am glad you are here to do that because I sure never could." might be more what he needs, and does not put him at an obligation to smile, or say "You're so nice" back or anything cheesy. Also, sometimes when people get a compliment they are starved for they are speechless, and want to hide their reaction. Consider that, too.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'll give an example.

    One day our phones went out because of electrical issues and the SLE coworker was asked to help with the phone system. When someone contributes their assistance I have a tendency to complement them by highlighting their efforts so I said (I'll change the name to BOB) "Wow, Bob look at you. You're the phone guy. Nice." What he did was instead of taking this as a compliment of his efforts he laughed saying "wow, Bob. ahahahah" I thought why won't you acknowledge my praise of you? LSE would feel pride, proud of this acknowledgement because they like the attention and being noted. He just ignored me and that made me feel unappreciated for having noticed him. As if it didn't matter. In this way conflict will build because after a while I won't get the feedback that I'm looking for.
    First let me say your new avatar is very pretty.

    Ok, so I wondered about this because it sounds unlike SLE to dismiss praise unless they found it demeaning in some way. They kind of eat it up if you do it the right way. I just talked to an SLE and told him this as a hypothetical and asked why he would not respond positively to someone saying what you said.

    He said the reasons he might not take it well would be tone of voice and whether or not he liked the person to begin with. Also he confirmed that he would not respond well if he thought it was demeaning calling him a phone guy if his skill set was above that. I asked him if that meant he would feel like his rank was lowered and he said yes. I don't know why I asked that but wasn't surprised by his answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    First let me say your new avatar is very pretty.

    Ok, so I wondered about this because it sounds unlike SLE to dismiss praise unless they found it demeaning in some way. They kind of eat it up if you do it the right way. I just talked to an SLE and told him this as a hypothetical and asked why he would not respond positively to someone saying what you said.

    He said the reasons he might not take it well would be tone of voice and whether or not he liked the person to begin with. Also he confirmed that he would not respond well if he thought it was demeaning calling him a phone guy if his skill set was above that. I asked him if that meant he would feel like his rank was lowered and he said yes. I don't know why I asked that but wasn't surprised by his answer.
    He did find it demeaning which I found astonishing. Yes my tone of voice was strange and I can't describe it. An LSE would say "right, you're complimenting me" they would get it. But he didn't and it makes it so hard for me to talk to him So hard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Consider that SLE's hidden agenda is "To Be Loved", and they will be not appreciate insincere compliments. So more specific: "Thanks so much for working on the phones. I am glad you are here to do that because I sure never could." might be more what he needs, and does not put him at an obligation to smile, or say "You're so nice" back or anything cheesy. Also, sometimes when people get a compliment they are starved for they are speechless, and want to hide their reaction. Consider that, too.
    I agree this is right but SLE can respond very positively if you do it right. They can even be goofy about it. Imagine a puppy scratched behind the ear in just the right way. If you do it wrong they might bite you. haha

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He did find it demeaning which I found astonishing. Yes my tone of voice was strange and I can't describe it. An LSE would say "right, you're complimenting me" they would get it. But he didn't and it makes it so hard for me to talk to him So hard
    Yeah don't waste your time on that. He probably decided he doesn't like you for something and will not respond well to you. I would just be civil to him and keep my distance if it wasn't work related. If he does something for you just leave it at "thank you". Otherwise he might hurt your feelings again.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I agree this is right but SLE can respond very positively if you do it right. They can even be goofy about it. Imagine a puppy scratched behind the ear in just the right way. If you do it wrong they might bite you. haha
    Ah! You have the right instincts! I'm envious! I need lessons! I want to see IEI/SLI interact. I keep praying he lands an IEI...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
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    ESI (Caller) and ILE (Dillahunty, green polo). Start at 0:39:


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    INTJ is my conflictor. INTJs don't like me and I don't like them.

    INTJs go on and on driving the same point home, until I want to hit them. It's like they get off on talking about that one thing they think they are right about, over and over. Just way too serious.

    I think INTJs spend their days looking for new evidence to back up their claims. "LOOK. I HAVE PRESENTED MORE EVIDENCE THAT I AM INDEED CORRECT ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH OF TIBETAN MONKS." < shit doesn't have anything to do with real life, lol.

    Still love you guys tho...:-)
    I'm just an effin ray of sunshine

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotSauce View Post
    I think INTJs spend their days looking for new evidence to back up their claims. "LOOK. I HAVE PRESENTED MORE EVIDENCE THAT I AM INDEED CORRECT ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH OF TIBETAN MONKS." < shit doesn't have anything to do with real life, lol.
    Look, here in this quotation I present more evidence that the assertion that SEE conflicts with LII is indeed correct. This plays out perfectly with my theory about the way that people interact in a system called Socionics.

    Real life is overrated.

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    I'm not convinced that Conflict is the worst intertype relation. Sure, it would be bad if you were in a close interpersonal relationship with a conflictor. However, it should be easy to not become emotionally attached to your conflictor, because you would tend to repel each other if you became more than casual acquaintances. This principle should apply to all relations with the opposing quadra.

    Much more difficult in my view are close asymmetric relations (Supervision and Benefit) when both partners are peers, because there is an inherent inequality to these relations. One is psychologically repelled (Supervision) or attracted (Benefit); the other is unaffected. This can lead to various manifestations of grief and anxiety.

    The above statements are only applicable to close peer-level relations.
    Last edited by hacim; 04-10-2016 at 02:19 AM.

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    LOL. If there was ever proof. Well. There it is.

    And real life is fucking awesome. Sorry you don't like participating.
    I'm just an effin ray of sunshine

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    Conflictor interactions are very unpredictable. It is hard to say when you truly hit sour spot. It can go smoothly for a while and suddenly...
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    I'm not convinced that Conflict is the worst intertype relation. Sure, it would be bad if you were in a close interpersonal relationship with a conflictor. However, it should be easy to not become emotionally attached to your conflictor, because you would tend to repel each other if you became more than casual acquaintances. This principle should apply to all relations with the opposing quadra.
    And that is why it is the worst when one of your close family members is your Conflictor.
    Because besides that, you can easily avoid most people. Except for maybe a boss you are working for; but you can quit the job, if absolutely necessary.
    It is much more difficult and heartbreaking having to "quit" relations with a close family member, no matter how bad the interaction is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    And that is why it is the worst when one of your close family members is your Conflictor.
    Because besides that, you can easily avoid most people. Except for maybe a boss you are working for; but you can quit the job, if absolutely necessary.
    It is much more difficult and heartbreaking having to "quit" relations with a close family member, no matter how bad the interaction is.
    In my family, my narcissistic LSE mother had an older IEI sister, and when we visited her house, we (the kids) always got a lecture about how she (the IEI) was spending too much money on decorating, how she was raising her kids (my favorite cousins) wrong, etc. etc. In retrospect, the two sisters did not get along well at all.

    My SLI father is my Supervisor, and no matter how much I (LIE) achieve, I cannot get him to say I have done anything productive with my life. It is not that he is reticent. He genuinely believes I'm a screwup. So, I find it best to simply keep a distance from him, and to expect nothing from him.

    Growing up in a household with parents whose approval is conditional or non-existent forces a person to maintain a psychological distance to maintain their own identity. I sometimes felt as if my parents were trying to kill my soul, and replace it with one that they liked better. Still, maintaining a psychological distance does not remove the desire for parental love. The desire merely gets transposed to someone else. I married an SLI because she was a better version of my father, and my LSE sister married an IEI conflictor male, because the conflict and distance she felt with him was familiar to her (growing up with a narcissistic mother who was her Identical, and thus competition), but the IEI also loved her. My other sister, an LII, married an LSE male. She says she married our mother, and she's desperately looking for an out from that marriage.
    Neither I nor my sisters spend any time with our parents. They sometimes ask why.

    Still, my son is another SLI, and both he and my SLI ex-wife visit my LSE & SLI parents frequently. They all love each other, and call each other almost daily. So, it is not that one type or another is intrinsically good or bad, but rather it is the interactions which can be good or can be toxic.

    This is why I am a strong advocate for finding a dual with whom you have compatible love-maps, world-views, and instincts. Mutual approval and support are almost a given in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In
    Growing up in a household with parents whose approval is conditional or non-existent forces a person to maintain a psychological distance to maintain their own identity. I sometimes felt as if my parents were trying to kill my soul, and replace it with one that they liked better.
    This is sadly poetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Thanks for sharing your personal experiences.

    Personally, all I am looking for (Socionics-wise) is a guy who has in his Ego (except for ESI, because the relation is asymmetric etc.)
    In this way, I can be somewhat sure he actually appreciates my insights – and I would surely appreciate his .
    I might also consider an ego type if he was particularly self-aware, secure, healthy and so on; but in this time of my life, I crave some of that Se-Ni interaction, and find I need Se help.
    To sum it up, all I would truly need in a partner (Socionics-wise) is someone who also values Se-Ni, because it is a vital part of who I am, and what I have been missing in my teens.
    (Oh, and honestly, I'd like my guy having the Aggressor Romance Style. Haha.)
    Yes, having a compatible Erotic Attitude makes a huge difference.

    I also know what you mean when you describe yourself as seeking Se. According to tests, I have a disproportionate amount of Se for an LIE, and I find Ni in IEI's entrancing. I chased an IEI for a while and got nowhere using Te, probably fell back a few steps with this approach, but one day, she was unloading supplies from her car, and I just stepped in and moved the heaviest items to where she wanted them, and she instantly looked at me differently, like she was happy and was considering possibilities. A week later, she broke off relations entirely.

    I assume she was starting to genuinely like me, and broke off relations as a defense against what she knew could become constant exposure to my Te.

    So for you, a guy who has Se in his ego may be good, but you might ultimately want to hold out for the whole deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    So for you, a guy who has Se in his ego may be good, but you might ultimately want to hold out for the whole deal.
    The "whole deal" being Duality?
    Somehow I don't foresee Duality truly happening/working out for me. As of now, ending up with a Semi-Dual seems much more probable.
    But that's something my own observations, aka my Ni, is telling me. Who knows, I might be wrong.
    I am not saying Duality will never happen for me, but the chances are not that high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    The "whole deal" being Duality?
    Somehow I don't foresee Duality truly happening/working out for me. As of now, ending up with a Semi-Dual seems much more probable.
    But that's something my own observations, aka my Ni, is telling me. Who knows, I might be wrong.
    I am not saying Duality will never happen for me, but the chances are not that high.
    The chances are higher for you than for your dual, because there are more of them than there are of you.

    I think that Duality is not the "whole deal", it is just one element of compatibility. Other factors include what one author calls a "love map", which I take to mean that there is an overall attraction (can I see myself with this person?), there is the matching of the first Enneagram instincts, and there must be good levels of mental health. Plus, there is the requirement of genuinely caring about the other person. So many things to consider. If you have most of them, then Duality alone can probably be tossed. After all, I was in a relationship with my Supervisor for a long time, and much of it was pretty good, because we had most of the other things.

    I don't share your pessimism about your finding a Dual. I see IEI's with SLE's often. SLE's are fairly common, in my opinion, more common irl than IEI's. I know one IEI who is ten years divorced from an ILE, and she has dated some SLE's, but they either cheated on her or spent her money. Not all of them are like that, though. Probably very few are like that. An SLE that I work with has said he would marry the IEI in a heartbeat, even though he's already married. She laughed when I told her this. They had met once at a party and she didn't remember him, but he certainly remembered her. Her problem is not finding SLE's, it is finding men who are as smart and responsible as she is, who are not either gay, married, or on death's door from reckless living.

    So, just put yourself out there. Sporting events, fencing or dance classes if you want an SLE-Se, Art museums, Physics lectures or some intellectual club event if you want an SLE-Ti. You can do it. They are looking for you, even if they don't know it themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't share your pessimism about your finding a Dual.
    I am not pessimistic about finding a Dual at all. On the contrary, finding one is not really the problem, as you have said yourself – SLEs are not that uncommon.

    It is rather that I feel like the likelihood of the relationship working long-term is not that good, for personal reasons.
    (It is not a "bad" chance, but other matches are more likely to work. Again, for reasons outside Socionics.)
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    I communicate quite well with my conflicting type; there've been hardly any misunderstandings. Where we seem to differ mostly is on life goals and or ways for achieving them. They tended to find me too introspective and serious while I found them too much the opposite; however, I have always enjoyed our sparring, which seemed to always occur, but it was jovial serious rather than combative.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I communicate quite well with my conflicting type; there've been hardly any misunderstandings. Where we seem to differ mostly is on life goals and or ways for achieving them. They tended to find me too introspective and serious while I found them too much the opposite; however, I have always enjoyed our sparring, which seemed to always occur, but it was jovial serious rather than combative.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Its the same for me with the Conflictors in my life. We are aware of each other's differences, and we respect them. But I don't live with them, or make joint everyday life's decisions with them - so we do not have those Conflictor's challenges. From what I have seen its quite a challenge with a spouse, but it can be done, as long as you don't look at other couples and wonder why is SO different for you...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    From what I have seen its quite a challenge with a spouse, but it can be done, as long as you don't look at other couples and wonder why is SO different for you...
    You know such couples? I have never seen a successful Conflict marriage before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    You know such couples? I have never seen a successful Conflict marriage before.
    My LSE sister is married to an IEI male which, of course, is a Conflict marriage. She earns the money, he works around the house and tells her to "get off her fat ass" and earn more. He has never held a full-time job since they got married, but she is desperate for connection, so she supports him and funds his 'searches for his inner male' adventures (which he goes on alone). They don't have kids, because that would take money away from his activities. When she lost her job as a pharmacist, he "befriended" her best friend, a successful lawyer, until my sister got another pharmacist job. Lest it seem that I'm painting the relationship as being one-way, he is very good at working around the house, he selects things for it of very high quality, he takes shit from no one, and he is a master at navigating life changes. She very much appreciates these qualities in him.
    Now that I think of it, their relationship is very much like the ones described by Stratiyevskaya between LSE and IEI.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    I kind of think that their marriage has made them into people who are very different from whom they would otherwise have been.
    I don't know if their marriage is successful, or psychologically good for either of them, but they are still married, and that is more than I can say about me and my ex-wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    he works around the house and tells her to "get off her fat ass" and earn more
    That does not sound like IEI at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    (...) he is very good at working around the house, he selects things for it of very high quality, he takes shit from no one, and he is a master at navigating life changes.
    Ah, this actually sounds pretty much like an LSI to me.
    Your sister might be married to her Extinguishment partner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    That does not sound like IEI at all.
    It sounds hurtful.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    You know such couples? I have never seen a successful Conflict marriage before.
    I know three! Two are ESE/ILI (both female ESEs) and one is SLE/EII (female EII). All have children and are determined to hold it together. I don't think any of them are aware of what a Socionics Conflictor relationship is, though I have told each wife aobut it. But because its like in they are engaged in battle, or are in a needed-respite from the last one and have to be one their toes for the next one, and they do not want to read/learn about what its like to be conflicting - they know they conflict since they live it and are doing the best they can to manage it.

    All three couples seem satisfied enough with their marital intimacy. All three families do more vacationing and traveling than other families I know. Conflictors seem to manage that, as well as holidays. But day-to-day life causes many, many conflicts.

    Particularly with the ESEs, the wives seem more beleaguered by the marriage than the husbands. But maybe that's because I see the "I"'s external strengths and not their internal suffering. The conflict is very personal and at-home because in both cases, the wives complain to their friends, then the friends meet their husband and think the husband is so nice and wonder why the wife complains so much. The two ESEs (my friends, one is more an acquaintance though) have had some of the same complaints about their husbands - that they keep their own little area (home office, or clothes) perfectly neat but do little-to-nothing to help maintain order and goings-on in the rest of the household. Which is an ILI trait, I think I read, which their dual might not mind but the conflictor just doesn't get. They seem to want their husbands to be more part of the team and complain about his withdrawing into himself and his own world. But I suspect an ILI needs that. The ESE wives both have head-spinningly busy schedules, and have a what seems to me to be massive circles of friend and acquaintances. They do seem to pour themselves out in work/care for the family, which makes the husband looks like he is just along for the ride. But I think you do not see the pain they experience in always being a disappointment to the wife's (maybe) high expectations.

    With my EII freind I have been able to observe that SLE/EII marraige the most, as its a relation. And I feel both the SLE and my EII's friend's pain. She is offended by his inconsideration, he is impatient with her focus on "unimportant" details or protocols. They do best when vacationing - nice vacations with hotels and meals out (no camping for them), and going to new and interesting or extra-nice places. So they plan them and I look forward to the oasis of family happy-times vs. the everyday conflict they normally face. My EII freind gets pretty mad - she YELLS - which he does not like. He does his own thing and ignores her... its all bad but they learn to get along by doing things separately as much as possible. They do good family holidays for themselves, focusing on what has to be done to make it happen and completing the jobs separately for the same purpose. Now she is busy studying for a challenging degree, after never having gone to college, and as the pressure there has cranked up they get along better. Perhaps because they have to be separate so much, and he has to step up and help the kids more. I am glad there has been less conflict, because when the kids were young they sure seemed headed for divorce. I think after years of ugly conflict they have learned how to avoid conflict as much as possible in order to have more get-along time.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My LSE sister is married to an IEI male which, of course, is a Conflict marriage. She earns the money, he works around the house and tells her to "get off her fat ass" and earn more. He has never held a full-time job since they got married, but she is desperate for connection, so she supports him and funds his 'searches for his inner male' adventures (which he goes on alone). They don't have kids, because that would take money away from his activities. When she lost her job as a pharmacist, he "befriended" her best friend, a successful lawyer, until my sister got another pharmacist job. Lest it seem that I'm painting the relationship as being one-way, he is very good at working around the house, he selects things for it of very high quality, he takes shit from no one, and he is a master at navigating life changes. She very much appreciates these qualities in him.
    Now that I think of it, their relationship is very much like the ones described by Stratiyevskaya between LSE and IEI.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    I kind of think that their marriage has made them into people who are very different from whom they would otherwise have been.
    I don't know if their marriage is successful, or psychologically good for either of them, but they are still married, and that is more than I can say about me and my ex-wife.
    When you describe it, I am reminded of what all the priests said to me - there were at least three, maybe four, that I consulted in a span of about a year, the year I was converting - when I described my marriage. And I was seeing them about my conversion questions, not about my marriage, which I knew was bad but I was committed to keeping my vow before God. All of them said immediately, "That's not a marriage." And that's exactly what I think when I read what you wrote here of your sister's marriage. That is not at all a marriage. A marriage is laying down your life for each other. Living for the other's best. Serving one another. Putting your spouse's needs first. Whatever they have, its not that. And its like deja vous, reminding me of the sadness and aloneness I felt in my ex-marraige. So much deja vous i wonder if her husband is a Narcissist. But whatever is up there, its not right.

    Recognizing that he has some good abilities doesn't mean she is in a real marriage. And she can hire a handyman and a personal shopper. And a marriage is more than a piece of paper...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In my family, my narcissistic LSE mother had an older IEI sister, and when we visited her house, we (the kids) always got a lecture about how she (the IEI) was spending too much money on decorating, how she was raising her kids (my favorite cousins) wrong, etc. etc. In retrospect, the two sisters did not get along well at all.

    My SLI father is my Supervisor, and no matter how much I (LIE) achieve, I cannot get him to say I have done anything productive with my life. It is not that he is reticent. He genuinely believes I'm a screwup. So, I find it best to simply keep a distance from him, and to expect nothing from him.

    Growing up in a household with parents whose approval is conditional or non-existent forces a person to maintain a psychological distance to maintain their own identity. I sometimes felt as if my parents were trying to kill my soul, and replace it with one that they liked better. Still, maintaining a psychological distance does not remove the desire for parental love. The desire merely gets transposed to someone else. I married an SLI because she was a better version of my father, and my LSE sister married an IEI conflictor male, because the conflict and distance she felt with him was familiar to her (growing up with a narcissistic mother who was her Identical, and thus competition), but the IEI also loved her. My other sister, an LII, married an LSE male. She says she married our mother, and she's desperately looking for an out from that marriage.
    Neither I nor my sisters spend any time with our parents. They sometimes ask why.

    Still, my son is another SLI, and both he and my SLI ex-wife visit my LSE & SLI parents frequently. They all love each other, and call each other almost daily. So, it is not that one type or another is intrinsically good or bad, but rather it is the interactions which can be good or can be toxic.

    This is why I am a strong advocate for finding a dual with whom you have compatible love-maps, world-views, and instincts. Mutual approval and support are almost a given in that situation.
    This is all very interesting the way you have explained it. You have certainly worked to understand these dynamics!

    My Mom is ISFj, my Dad was ISTp. I got along great with my Dad, who was easy, and my Mom was more challenging, always. A mystery. They say when your parent or person in authority over you, as in a job, is your Supervisee, you don't respect them. Certainly during my teen years I rebelled and I did not respect her; I found her exasperating. Then when I got away to college I felt guilty for that. I reflected that by marrying my ESFj ex, I "married my Mom" as the ESFj was more similar to Mom than Dad, especially in that he was hard to please, as well as quite sure and firm on how things should be done. But I was sure he loved me when I picked him, as he did a good imitation of that. And I think marrying him was a way of marrying the difficult parent, my Mom, in order to correct the past. I think that's done a lot. And it sounds like what happened in your family.

    In my case, my ex's inability to understand/appreciate me only increased. I spend a long time learning how to communicate better, and trying to understand him better (which is why I learned MBTI so thoroughly) but it didn't work because, as I later understood, he purposely was withholding any sign of understanding as a way of control, as he was a Narcissist - he would withhold what he knew I most wanted. In my Mom's case, I think her inability to understand or relate had to do with the shock treatment she had for postpartum depression. I think she never was able to be herself, really, even though, like my ex, she was seemingly normal.

    Its sure is hard to be our best when our lives are populated with so many fallible people!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    When you describe it, I am reminded of what all the priests said to me - there were at least three, maybe four, that I consulted in a span of about a year, the year I was converting - when I described my marriage. And I was seeing them about my conversion questions, not about my marriage, which I knew was bad but I was committed to keeping my vow before God. All of them said immediately, "That's not a marriage." And that's exactly what I think when I read what you wrote here of your sister's marriage. That is not at all a marriage. A marriage is laying down your life for each other. Living for the other's best. Serving one another. Putting your spouse's needs first. Whatever they have, its not that. And its like deja vous, reminding me of the sadness and aloneness I felt in my ex-marraige. So much deja vous i wonder if her husband is a Narcissist. But whatever is up there, its not right.

    Recognizing that he has some good abilities doesn't mean she is in a real marriage. And she can hire a handyman and a personal shopper. And a marriage is more than a piece of paper...
    I don't think he is a Narcissist. Maybe his actions are just what conflictors do. But he does insist on having his own way all the time, whatever that might be, whatever he wants. When they were first married, he moved her out to a house (which she bought) in the vast cornfields of Illinois, because, according to him, they would be surrounded by food when US society inevitably collapsed, and then he would come forth and teach the survivors how to truly live. (This is one reason why I think he is IEI. His imagination is completely untethered from reality, but he operates as if it is reality.) After living there for a few years, where they created a beautiful house in the middle of nowhere, he had a dream with the word "-------" in it. A few weeks later, an acquaintance told him about a house for sale in the town of "-------", he went to see it, and decided to buy it with down payment money from his parents. My sister said, "What about our present house?" He said, "That's your problem. I'm moving." She decided to go with him to the even more remote location in Colorado, but their first house sits unsold and unoccupied, because she can't work full time in Colorado and sell a house in the cornfields of Illinois.

    I've talked to them on the phone since they moved, and when they talk to each other, they sound like they don't even like each other.

    You made a number of good points in your post. Marriage should be a relationship between two people who both put the other person first. An additional bonus is when two people truly like each other, and can spend a lot of time doing nothing at all together. If you have to schedule trips and activities to distract yourself from the marriage, then the marriage could be improved. If you find yourself finding reasons all the time to be apart, then you might be in a Conflictor marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't think he is a Narcissist. Maybe his actions are just what conflictors do. But he does insist on having his own way all the time, whatever that might be, whatever he wants. When they were first married, he moved her out to a house (which she bought) in the vast cornfields of Illinois, because, according to him, they would be surrounded by food when US society inevitably collapsed, and then he would come forth and teach the survivors how to truly live. (This is one reason why I think he is IEI. His imagination is completely untethered from reality, but he operates as if it is reality.) After living there for a few years, where they created a beautiful house in the middle of nowhere, he had a dream with the word "-------" in it. A few weeks later, an acquaintance told him about a house for sale in the town of "-------", he went to see it, and decided to buy it with down payment money from his parents. My sister said, "What about our present house?" He said, "That's your problem. I'm moving." She decided to go with him to the even more remote location in Colorado, but their first house sits unsold and unoccupied, because she can't work full time in Colorado and sell a house in the cornfields of Illinois.

    I've talked to them on the phone since they moved, and when they talk to each other, they sound like they don't even like each other.

    You made a number of good points in your post. Marriage should be a relationship between two people who both put the other person first. An additional bonus is when two people truly like each other, and can spend a lot of time doing nothing at all together. If you have to schedule trips and activities to distract yourself from the marriage, then the marriage could be improved. If you find yourself finding reasons all the time to be apart, then you might be in a Conflictor marriage.
    The dude you are describing sounds completely ILE. He has an out there imagination, but also seemingly boundless energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    The dude you are describing sounds completely ILE. He has an out there imagination, but also seemingly boundless energy.
    Not only that but the guy sounds extremely controlling, selfish, emotionally and psychologically abusive. I can't see this person as an IEI for several other reasons but those things seem a bit over the top in this case. He does not seem to care at all for his wife and her feelings. Regardless their types I believe she is in a bad relationship the way AS describes it and it is not necessarily a conflictor relationship. The examples he gives illustrate something far more insidious going on.

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    Here's an example of how I interact with my conflictor. This guy is a pretty close friend of mine. ENFj-ISTp phone conversation:
    Me: *Calls on the phone* Hey, I was wondering if you had any plans tonight? You want to go do something?

    Him: Sure. I'm dying to get out of the house anyway. What did you have in mind?

    Me: I don't know. We could go see a movie or something.

    Him: Are there any good movies out? I didn't see any.

    Me: I looked, and nothing really interested me. Well, we could go eat somewhere or just drive around and talk for awhile.

    Him: You should've called me with a plan. We should go out and do something, not just talk.

    Me: My plan was to drive down and hang out with you. Doesn't really matter where we go. We could just wing it.

    Him: No, I don't like that. You should always have a plan when you call people, Mallory. I don't want to just hang out, we should be doing something fun.

    Me: Uh.. okay.. well, we could just hang out at your house and play video games then.

    Him: Alright. That works. When are you coming down?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't think he is a Narcissist. Maybe his actions are just what conflictors do. But he does insist on having his own way all the time, whatever that might be, whatever he wants. When they were first married, he moved her out to a house (which she bought) in the vast cornfields of Illinois, because, according to him, they would be surrounded by food when US society inevitably collapsed, and then he would come forth and teach the survivors how to truly live. (This is one reason why I think he is IEI. His imagination is completely untethered from reality, but he operates as if it is reality.) After living there for a few years, where they created a beautiful house in the middle of nowhere, he had a dream with the word "-------" in it. A few weeks later, an acquaintance told him about a house for sale in the town of "-------", he went to see it, and decided to buy it with down payment money from his parents. My sister said, "What about our present house?" He said, "That's your problem. I'm moving." She decided to go with him to the even more remote location in Colorado, but their first house sits unsold and unoccupied, because she can't work full time in Colorado and sell a house in the cornfields of Illinois.

    I've talked to them on the phone since they moved, and when they talk to each other, they sound like they don't even like each other.

    You made a number of good points in your post. Marriage should be a relationship between two people who both put the other person first. An additional bonus is when two people truly like each other, and can spend a lot of time doing nothing at all together. If you have to schedule trips and activities to distract yourself from the marriage, then the marriage could be improved. If you find yourself finding reasons all the time to be apart, then you might be in a Conflictor marriage.
    Well, maybe he is not a narcissist, just a very selfish person, and she is codependent, perhaps even assisting him in becoming his very most selfish self with her cooperation. That is a problem, but one can learn one's way out of bad codependent habits. And once you do, generally, you are cured.

    At any rate, Its a sad situation, and I am sure you are sad telling it.

    As to the off-the-grid thing, well that's nice. I like the idea of homesteading, living off the land as much as possible, so I would go along with that. But its not something we can do now, and if God wants us to do that, I trust He will make it clear. We are living the life that works for us right now. I can certainly imagine a scenario where they would be in the right place and we the wrong. But I do fell bad for your sister if this is not the life she wants.

    You are so right about just being together making you happy when you love each other. My husband and I really just like being together. I have to make a point to plan something different now and again because we are perfectly happy just hanging out together. But if one is in a Conflictor marriage, probably its better to just embrace it and get creative planning interesting family outings and vacations.

    Then again, for your sis, the problem might be Colorado itself. I have a who friend married a guy in corporate management and started a family and bought a nice house and worked hard fixing it up and then he kept changing what he wanted to do, like, sell their nice house and by a tiny one for her and the kids (she kept working, teaching, to assist these changes) so he could be a car repairman, then, back to Colorado for more corporate. But then, while there in Colorado, he found this commune, and announced to his wife they should sell their house and all their belongings and give it all to the commune, and move there with the kids for a better life. He could be their handyman and she could be cook for the commune! That's when she said "no" for the first time...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallan View Post
    Here's an example of how I interact with my conflictor. This guy is a pretty close friend of mine. ENFj-ISTp phone conversation:
    Me: *Calls on the phone* Hey, I was wondering if you had any plans tonight? You want to go do something?

    Him: Sure. I'm dying to get out of the house anyway. What did you have in mind?

    Me: I don't know. We could go see a movie or something.

    Him: Are there any good movies out? I didn't see any.

    Me: I looked, and nothing really interested me. Well, we could go eat somewhere or just drive around and talk for awhile.

    Him: You should've called me with a plan. We should go out and do something, not just talk.

    Me: My plan was to drive down and hang out with you. Doesn't really matter where we go. We could just wing it.

    Him: No, I don't like that. You should always have a plan when you call people, Mallory. I don't want to just hang out, we should be doing something fun.

    Me: Uh.. okay.. well, we could just hang out at your house and play video games then.

    Him: Alright. That works. When are you coming down?
    Driving around and talking is nice and pleasant

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    My mother is an ESFj. We certainly do better at a distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My LSE sister is married to an IEI male which, of course, is a Conflict marriage. She earns the money, he works around the house and tells her to "get off her fat ass" and earn more. He has never held a full-time job since they got married, but she is desperate for connection, so she supports him and funds his 'searches for his inner male' adventures (which he goes on alone). They don't have kids, because that would take money away from his activities. When she lost her job as a pharmacist, he "befriended" her best friend, a successful lawyer, until my sister got another pharmacist job. Lest it seem that I'm painting the relationship as being one-way, he is very good at working around the house, he selects things for it of very high quality, he takes shit from no one, and he is a master at navigating life changes. She very much appreciates these qualities in him.
    Now that I think of it, their relationship is very much like the ones described by Stratiyevskaya between LSE and IEI.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    That is an unhealthy SEI behavior: not hold a job b/c of Te polr anxieties, but worry about money, and goad someone else to do work. Essentially making that person do the work in place of SEI. This SEI that was in one of my classes would boast about making his group do all the work in laboratory sections, as he would sit back and copy results from them later.

    3. ... The SEI serves as a director of this function by providing advice concerning the initiative, determination, and specific actions: "Achieve everything by your own hands", "Do not sit around," "Do this right now", etc. (Same as your sister's husband is saying.)
    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ulenko#SEI-ILE
    And supervision couples are commonly encountered.

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