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Thread: Subversion in the West

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    Washington delenda est totalize's Avatar
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    Default Subversion in the West

    Subversion is a serious problem in Western societies. What methods can we use to defeat subversion while still guaranteeing legitimate freedom of expression and speech?

    Discuss.
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    Subversion refers to an attempt to transform the established social order and its structures of power, authority, and hierarchy. - Definition.

    Your opening post is an incomplete statement.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I wasn't sure what I thought of this at first, but then I started reading Wikipedia's definition of 'subversion,' and it turned out to be a deep topic. My first instinct was to jokingly say, 'Yay! I want more subversion!' because I don't like a lot of things about society nowadays.

    But it's not that simple. Some of the things that I hate about society are actually the result of the subversion going on, and some of the things that I would have loved about society are gone, because of the subversion of values. I could use the word 'corruption' to mean something similar, except it's not merely a passive process happening by accident, but rather a deliberate process that various people are doing on purpose.

    Like the media. People's values are being changed by what they see on television. 'Moral depravity' on television.

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    Subversion is practically synonymous with having an opinion. Is there a particular focus you wanted to discuss then?

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    Empower people to build the type of society they themselves want to live in, locally. Teach people how to create intentional communities. That way people who believe the world should be different will be able to live in the kind of world they want, even if everybody in the society doesn't agree. Make political units smaller, not bigger, so there will be more variety and power will be more local. I imagine there would actually be lots of different subversive forces going on at the same time, and in many different directions. But there are many possible types of governments people could want to live with. The whole entire world doesn't need to be unified under one single government that is the same everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    Subversion is practically synonymous with having an opinion.
    No it isn't.

    It is not an issue of 'some people want to disagree with me'. Subversion is politics minus the discourse.

    Subversive movements generally have a few, interlocking aims:
    The replacement of a country's societal structure with a new structure, thought up by them, without discussion,
    Weakening or if possible, total annihilation of a country's moral and social fibre
    Total degradation of public morale and trust in important national institutions like the legal system and state security

    There is plenty of subversion in the democratic world. The current US social justice movement is highly subversive and extremely dangerous. Britain has a huge problem with internal subversion vis a vis the European Union. Not to mention the ever present corporate subversion in the political process of all western democracies. There are plenty of other examples.

    During the cold war western intelligence agencies kept internal subversion checked. With the threat of the Soviet Union gone, these measures were all but disbanded. And yet subversion remains. The question is what should be done about it.
    go on type me I fuckin dare u

    Mr Speaker — What I do is well within my right
    and anointed power to, as King,
    demand.


    Your Majesty — If this is what you want
    Then this you can, as King,
    command.

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    I don't care.

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    Who is subverting us, and why? You could say a Taiwanese nationalist is subverting China if they do not want to negotiate. I think some forms of subversion are welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    No it isn't.

    It is not an issue of 'some people want to disagree with me'. Subversion is politics minus the discourse.

    Subversive movements generally have a few, interlocking aims:
    The replacement of a country's societal structure with a new structure, thought up by them, without discussion,
    Weakening or if possible, total annihilation of a country's moral and social fibre
    Total degradation of public morale and trust in important national institutions like the legal system and state security

    There is plenty of subversion in the democratic world. The current US social justice movement is highly subversive and extremely dangerous. Britain has a huge problem with internal subversion vis a vis the European Union. Not to mention the ever present corporate subversion in the political process of all western democracies. There are plenty of other examples.

    During the cold war western intelligence agencies kept internal subversion checked. With the threat of the Soviet Union gone, these measures were all but disbanded. And yet subversion remains. The question is what should be done about it.
    yes, well, I could call this subversion against my post not because I want to disagree, but because I do disagree. But it's boring; and you seem to follow the textbook definition. Fair enough, I guess.

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    I think in the long term (the next 15 years or more), decreasing absolute poverty and increasing the standard of living for everybody will be of primary significance.
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