LII/INTj's role function - what should I do here? Stupid Fi.

[nickelslick]

I have this friend I made nine years ago in varsity. Back then he had many qualities that made him a great friend. He was very smart and had a lot of potential, and he lived a principled life.

No more. He was a straight A student, but didn't finish his degree. His career ambitions are gone, his company treats him like trash. He has random hookups with women I don't think he really finds attractive. He is pretty much isolated otherwise. He has health issues he doesn't see to. Given up on life, it seems. This depresses me and I feel like it's a negative drag on my life. I stood by him hoping to motivate him. But then...

Last year, he didn't bother wishing me on my birthday. I want at least that from a friend, you know? Bare minimum. Somebody else told him later, and all he said was "oops". How dare he violate the laws of Fe? There are other things but this was the last straw.

The easiest solution is to just ditch him and move on with life unencumbered. But treating your friends that way when they are in a bad place makes you a bad person, right? Friends are supposed to stand by each other no matter what? I don't know, a nine-year friendship seems like something I should value more.

[uncivilized]

Sometimes people crash and burn. He feels like shit which is why he's isolating himself and not bothering to try to keep his social connections alive. He's looking for the rejection that he feels he deserves on some level; he subconsciously wants to isolate himself in his shame by burning all of his bridges.

[Jeremy8419]

You're under the impression he is still LII. Such may not be the case.

[Beautiful sky]

Roll with it. Embrace

[sushi]

have you tried talking to him about your issues?

[nickelslick]

You're under the impression he is still LII. Such may not be the case.

I'm the LII.

You believe people can change types? Never seen it happen myself.

have you tried talking to him about your issues?

I'm not really comfortable being very direct, but maybe I should try.

[Jeremy8419]

I'm the LII.

You believe people can change types? Never seen it happen myself.

I'm not really comfortable being very direct, but maybe I should try.

Ohhhhh.... Hahaha. Sorry.

Communication. Always. Open, sincere communication.

Yes, it changes based upon growth and environmental changes, as long as the individual is well-adapted and healthy. People use the phrase "has no personality" to describe single-faceted personality individuals (ala TIM). When people have multi-faceted personalities and are free from illness, they'll naturally float between the sociotypes base on short-term and long-term environmental factors. For instance, the stereotype descriptions of beskosa (or however you spell it), which gives descriptions of the types from youth through married, child-raising adulthood... Although they are one potential string of life events/periods, one could easily mix and match these various periods to reflect how the individual actually reacts and changes from a personality perspective. The common "sweep it under the rug" argument by socionics is to claim mistype or being negatively altered into faking a type that they really aren't. Keep in mind, the sociotypes and typology as a whole are made-up. They give people a somewhat common (well, sometimes at least) common language to discuss their thoughts and behaviors in relation to others, which as this thread itself does, is really all anyone is doing with it anyways. "Difficulty understanding and communicating relationship difficulties with peer" is basically what it is, and such could be discussed on numerous types of forums free from socionics, typology, and personality. Often people simply use the types to say "fix it, because it's impossible for me to do better," but, as you will find, all things come with time, and I'm sure you'll find a way to resolve the issue, or at least learn from it, independent of socionics.

[blue hummingbird]

He is clearly depressed. Talk to him, tell him that you are concerned about him and you want to help him. Tell him that you are there if he wants someone to talk to. INTjs care about people but their outward expression often betray them (sometimes greatly). Perhaps he thinks you don't really care so he keeps pulling away.

[Skepsis]

Its very unfortunate. Unfortunately, other than trying to talk with your friend, there probably isn't much you can do. Offer that if he needs anything to let you know. Maybe he'll come around down the road.

[Rebelondeck]

Nickelslick,

Expressions like "hoping to motivate him", "depresses me", "negative drag on my life", "How dare he violate", "makes you a bad person, right" and "should value more" do not seem very LII-ish. I wonder whether or not you have mistyped yourself, or this situation has put you under so much stress that you've morphed into your dual in order to try to cope?

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

He's not LII

[Skepsis]

Not sure how anyone can rule out any type based on the limited information provided.

[tejing]

You don't sound much like an LII. I'd actually guess Te base, from what little info I have to work with. What makes you think you're LII? Also, Fe doesn't really have laws, that's Fi.

[ghost of forum past]

I think that you are overreacting to an insignificant social gaffe.

I'm not saying that you're not LII (that is your judgment to make) but it seems to me that your behavior in this situation is not typical of LIIs, as others have already pointed out.

[Skepsis]

Nothing quite like perpetuating LII stereotypes. LIIs can have high Fi via the Role function. LIIs also make good use of Te. The OP is asking for advice, not to have the type he/she identifies with questioned.

[Aylen]

Nothing quite like perpetuating LII stereotypes. LIIs can have high Fi via the Role function. LIIs also make good use of Te. The OP is asking for advice, not to have the type he/she identifies with questioned.

I think logical types can often have more difficulty processing these kinds of things and might be more inclined, than ethical types, to need outside help working them out. They can get really confused about a relationships and how to respond to other people's behavior especially once they have grown very close to someone and care about them. Like I would probably just instinctively know how to handle this and be less likely to ask advice in this area. I might vent to a friend though. Logical types feelings can be hurt. They can get depressed, feel put-upon and I have even seen them cry.

I took it upon myself to find the "official" approved language for LII and I implore all LII to read it, absorb it, commit it to long-term memory and never deviate from this.

(introverted logic)

related words

• logical, systematic, consistent, coherent
• system, scheme, ordering, classification, grouping, framework, structure, law, rule
• correlation, similarity, distinction, compatibility
• controversial, compliant
• denote, define, mean, signify, designate, refer to, constitute, correspond to, pertain to
• satisfy (i.e. a requirement), comply with, match
• establish (a rule or principle)
• counterpart, analogue, equivalent
• characteristic of, of a ____ nature
• according to, corresponding to, in view of, in terms of, apart from, given ___, equivalent to, tantamount to
• in principle, strictly speaking, by definition
• consider, call, deem, regard, associate ____ with
• therefore, consequently, thus, hence

related statements (real-life only, please)

• extremely similar in nature
• correlate rather poorly
• Now on that point, I'm going to have to take issue.
• I think a study of... {someone's} usage of the word will give a more accurate interpretation
• inconsistent in his punctuation
• We are obligated to abide by certain rules.
• Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
• Only when absolutely necessary.
• He knew what not to do is what he did do.
• Is it or isn't it?
• What does that refer to?
• You are contradicting yourself.

Features of speech

• A penchant for concise formulations ("No. That is incorrect." or "A holon is a whole that is also a part.").
• Tend to define new words (jargon) and then use them extensively.

(extraverted intuition)

related words

• idea, realization, epiphany, revelation
• general, overall, basic, main, core, fundamental
• important, key, critical, crucial
• enlightening, illuminating, insightful
• overview, glance (figurative)
• initially, recently, eventually, ultimately, finally
• in general, basically, for the most part, more or less, pretty much
• generate, engender, spawn, breed, give birth to, give rise to (all figurative)
• origin, crux, root, source
• any moment now, at the moment, until, since, later, once again, sometimes, occasionally, frequently, often, all the time, every time, for a while, periodically, regularly
• sudden, abrupt, unpredictable
• option, alternative, choice
• crossroads, juncture
• possibility, potential, likelihood, opportunity, chance, luck, fortune
• coincidence, concurrence
• come together, fall into place (of events)
• guess, suppose, imagine, reckon, conjecture, venture, hazard
• random (figurative)

related statements (real-life only, please)

• get to the root of
• you basically imply that...
• What I really meant was more that... (some here?)
• Here's another idea.
• I have a career {or any other idea} for you.
• Just some random thoughts...
• in the long run it makes more sense to... (some here?)
• ... and discovered lots of parallels with other things
• Within a week or so
• that's the main commercial activity I've been involved in here recently since...
• it seems that things are coming together to allow me to do this
• Any ideas where we can...?
• ... has real potential
• did you learn anything about yourself, people, country, you did not know before? (some here as well)
• You seem to have found a great niche
• Imagine that!
• Something really interesting is...
• Now just imagine for a second that...
• Suppose we go there and...
• I happen to have just spoken to him.
• Now is the critical moment.
• If I had gotten there earlier, I would have had time to figure things out first.
• One thing I have noticed is that...
• It has become clear to me lately that...
• I'm starting to realize...
• I'm pretty good at figuring out...
• So hypothetically...
• Well I think in that situation I would have responded in such-and-such a way.

Features of speech

• A tendency to use the conditional tense frequently ("would have been," "what might happen," etc.)

I have probably used every word/phrase on this list more times than I could count. It is kind of funny though.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Vocabulary

[Skepsis]

I think logical types can often have more difficulty processing these kinds of things and might be more inclined, than ethical types, to need outside help working them out. They can get really confused about a relationships and how to respond to other people's behavior especially once they have grown very close to someone and care about them. Like I would probably just instinctively know how to handle this and be less likely to ask advice in this area. I might vent to a friend though. Logical types feelings can be hurt. They can get depressed, feel put-upon and I have even seen them cry.

I took it upon myself to find the "official" approved language for LII and I implore all LII to read it, absorb it, commit it to long-term memory and never deviate from this.

Never, ever?

[Aylen]

Never, ever?

NEVER!

[Skepsis]

NEVER!

Then I am already dead!

[Aylen]

Then I am already dead!

*performs cpr*

I have chosen to undertake a challenge in the next few days. I am going to write a story only using approved Ni and Fe phrases on that link. If I disappear you will know that I have reached enlightenment and moved on to a better place. Just in case... it has been nice interacting with you. I would like to say "knowing you" but there wasn't enough time... <3

[Aylen]

The easiest solution is to just ditch him and move on with life unencumbered. But treating your friends that way when they are in a bad place makes you a bad person, right? Friends are supposed to stand by each other no matter what? I don't know, a nine-year friendship seems like something I should value more.

I don't think the real issue is the birthday wish and if that is it then just get over it. I know it is hurtful but in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. Are you typically a grudge holder, btw? This is something that can bother some grudge holders, that I know, for a long time. If not then you have probably already gotten over it.

People grow apart, move in different directions all the time. If he is not putting any effort into your friendship and is only taking from you then you have every right to walk away. I mean sure you can choose to stay by a friends side at your own expense but it isn't noble.

If you believe he is only depressed or even suspect he could be on drugs (just throwing that out there) then talk to him. Give him information on getting professional help. There is only so much you can do for someone who won't help themselves. If he has just resigned himself to a miserable life (by your standards) then that is not your problem to fix. Find out what is really going on. If he pushes you away or is draining your energy then you might have to walk away. People leave 20 year marriages for less. Seriously do you want to put 11 more years in only to feel like, "why did it take me so long to wake up"?

[Sol]

Friends are supposed to stand by each other no matter what?

Friends want this, see this as natural way of their souls, but not are supposed to because of obligation. If you ask this here and have relations wich you don't like - it's hard to call friendship.

[Rebelondeck]

Maritsa,

He's not LII

He could be LII. I knew a LII who went into ESFj mode for 6 months after becoming a single parent and until the children stabilized (became a real mother hen); during that time, the technical aspects of the job became a struggle but the personnel aspects much easier, where the opposite was the norm. I saw an INFj transform into an in-your-face ESTj inquisitor when management was trying to get rid of her; staff did not want to mess with her but she reverted to her normal pleasant self when she got a transfer months later. I noted that the writing styles also changed in both situations. One does the strangest things to cope.......

a.k.a. I/O

[nickelslick]

You don't sound much like an LII. I'd actually guess Te base

Interesting. One of the flaws I see myself having as an LII is the tendency to over-think things to the point where I'm never actually productive, so I've been a little obsessed with pragmatism lately. I want to pat myself on the back for being mistyped as Te-base, but I'll wait until I get some real world results

I think that you are overreacting to an insignificant social gaffe.

I'm sorry, I thought being a little over the top there about the birthday thing would convey that I actually didn't care much.

I don't think the real issue is the birthday wish and if that is it then just get over it. I know it is hurtful but in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. Are you typically a grudge holder, btw? This is something that can bother some grudge holders, that I know, for a long time. If not then you have probably already gotten over it.

People grow apart, move in different directions all the time. If he is not putting any effort into your friendship and is only taking from you then you have every right to walk away. I mean sure you can choose to stay by a friends side at your own expense but it isn't noble.

If you believe he is only depressed or even suspect he could be on drugs (just throwing that out there) then talk to him. Give him information on getting professional help. There is only so much you can do for someone who won't help themselves. If he has just resigned himself to a miserable life (by your standards) then that is not your problem to fix. Find out what is really going on. If he pushes you away or is draining your energy then you might have to walk away. People leave 20 year marriages for less. Seriously do you want to put 11 more years in only to feel like, "why did it take me so long to wake up"?

Thank you, Aylen! This gave me some perspective. Not only on the current situation but on past friendships too. You're awesome.

[Contra]

Yeah, it's definitely my nightmare (or at least part of it) to end up like this guy.