Discussion of the role function

[Muddy]

I think it is a little bit interesting in how the role function manifest with each type. Despite being devalued, we feel the need to develop the role function as means of being accepted by others and society. This development might be the reason look-a-like types start looking more and more alike as they get older.

I will make a list of the role functions and the ways I've seen effort being put into them:

Si role: Going on a diet, buying fancy clothes, honing in on art skills

Ni role: Joining a religion, making emergency provisions for the future

Ti role: Pursuing high level education, engaging in intellectual activities

Fi role: Affiliating with political movements, reaching out to old friends

Se role: Working out, joining the military, engaging in masculine hobbies

Ne role: Traveling to new places, catching up on media and entertainment

Te role: Setting ambitious careers goals, collecting and reading books

Fe role: Attending counseling, organizing formal social events

[consentingadult]

The descriptions are cool, however, they apply more to the mobilizing function than the role function. All of these descriptions have an element in them of the individual taking the initiative on them, and also these are more or less longer lasting activities. The idea behind the Mob function is that the individual is in some way seeking acceptance or recognition (from intra-quadra people). As such, the individual indeed tries to fulfill perceived social expectations. If this function doesn't yield expected results, it is more likely that they will become depressed.

The role function, instead, manifest under immediate social pressure (e.g. when cornered in some way, usually by people from other quadra), is short lasting, and in most cases in some way harmful to the individual themselves and/or other people, especially the person applying the pressure. Sometimes, when an individual has to maintain themselves in in unfriendly environment for a longer period of time, this function can become chronic and cause a lot of stress. Instead of becoming depressed, the individual will burn out.

E.g. Se-role: fiercely striking back dis-proportionally when under physical pressure/danger.

[Thelema]

The role function is like a mask. You don't like the mask that much, but you know you have to keep it during some circumstances. It is a necessary protection measure. When you are comfortable, you generally let the mask drop.

[squark]

I see Fi role as basically trying to be polite to people I don't know well, remaining non-offensive if possible, and keeping most of my thoughts to myself.


Edit to add: None of which I enjoy or "want to show off."

[Muddy]

The descriptions are cool, however, they apply more to the mobilizing function than the role function.

I think the main difference between the role and the mobilizing is that the role works like an insecure teenager that wants to show off his new car to the world, while the mobilizing is more like a kid who wants to steal cookies from the cookie jar. The role is wants to be boldly displayed to the world in order to hide our insecurities, the mobilizing is our dark hidden fetish that we hope others will take the initiative in so we don't feel weird. Therefore the role is often very visible on things such as social media, were the individual has complete control of the image he makes for himself. The mobilizing on the other hand becomes more visible in direct personal contact in which the person's desire to engage in the function begins to leak out against their control. The role is what we openly declare we what want to to be good at, while the mobilizing is want we are unconsciously drawn towards against our knowing.

[Beautiful sky]

I see Fi role as basically trying to be polite to people I don't know well, remaining non-offensive if possible, and keeping most of my thoughts to myself.

Idk but I don't see this as part of Fi. LSI are distrustful of people so that's why they keep thoughts to themselves. I don't keep thoughts to myself and I'm Fi. Fi is about being subtle with ones tact and finesse as to preserve relationships. You would do that well if you had relationships with vendors whereas ESE wouldn't care so much

[squark]

Idk but I don't see this as part of Fi. LSI are distrustful of people so that's why they keep thoughts to themselves. I don't keep thoughts to myself and I'm Fi. First is about being subtle with ones tact and finesse as to preserve relationships. You would do that well if you had relationships with vendors whereas ESE wouldn't care so much

Well, leading Fi is different from Role Fi. Basically with the role, you recognize that you're not all that great at it, so you find work-arounds to cover for it. The role is the work-around itself.

[ghost of forum past]

Idk but I don't see this as part of Fi. LSI are distrustful of people so that's why they keep thoughts to themselves. I don't keep thoughts to myself and I'm Fi. Fi is about being subtle with ones tact and finesse as to preserve relationships. You would do that well if you had relationships with vendors whereas ESE wouldn't care so much

Well, as a Fi-dominant type, you naturally have a better understanding of Fi. Us Fi-role types have a more simplistic understanding of the function, because we want to bring the alien role function under a logical system that dictates its proper usage, while not naturally being able to understand its more nuanced elements. LIIs and LSIs may desire to be seen as "polite and proper" in public, which is a gross oversimplification of Fi.

I'm curious: how do you see your own Ti role? I want to see if my reaction is similar to yours in response to the perceived oversimplification of the role function.

[Beautiful sky]

Well, as a Fi-dominant type, you naturally have a better understanding of Fi. Us Fi-role types have a more simplistic understanding of the function, because we want to bring the alien role function under a logical system that dictates its proper usage, while not naturally being able to understand its more nuanced elements. LIIs and LSIs may desire to be seen as "polite and proper" in public, which is a gross oversimplification of Fi.

I'm curious: how do you see your own Ti role? I want to see if my reaction is similar to yours in response to the perceived oversimplification of the role function.

I take a shot at analysis of things categorically but can't see difference well so can't make clear systems. It's not something I want help with. I want Te as in "honey, I feel bad" where I can't figure out what could have caused it and Te objective reality says "it's from the food you I ate".

[1981slater]

I think it is a little bit interesting in how the role function manifest with each type. Despite being devalued, we feel the need to develop the role function as means of being accepted by others and society. This development might be the reason look-a-like types start looking more and more alike as they get older.

I will make a list of the role functions and the ways I've seen effort being put into them:

Si role: Going on a diet, buying fancy clothes, honing in on art skills

Ni role: Joining a religion, making emergency provisions for the future

Ti role: Pursuing high level education, engaging in intellectual activities

Fi role: Affiliating with political movements, reaching out to old friends

Se role: Working out, joining the military, engaging in masculine hobbies

Ne role: Traveling to new places, catching up on media and entertainment

Te role: Setting ambitious careers goals, collecting and reading books

Fe role: Attending counseling, organizing formal social events

I am ILE normalizing. My role makes me a workaholic

[1981slater]

se role: workaholic ILE / Marty McFly "no one calls me chicken" IEE
ne role: trying to come across as original

si role: being very clean
ni role: I dunno

te role: trying to come across as knowledgeable
fe role: laughing in a weird way

ti role: memorizing lots of things
fi role: being very polite

[ashlesha]

In order to be taken somewhat seriously I like to give the impression my brain works like a functional machine that competently processes problems fed into it and isn't just a bubbly cauldron of memories, instincts, and random knowledge that i pull from somewhat arbitrarily.

[ConcreteButterfly]

The role function is like a mask. You don't like the mask that much, but you know you have to keep it during some circumstances. It is a necessary protection measure. When you are comfortable, you generally let the mask drop.

I agree, it's used mostly as a defense mechanism for the more vulnerable super-id block. In situations where your super-id is protected, you'll naturally drop it in favor of your ego.

[consentingadult]

se role: workaholic ILE / Marty McFly "no one calls me chicken" IEE
ne role: trying to come across as original

The first line is right, the second one needs expansion before a distinction can be made with the mobilizing function

Ne role: trying to come across as original, which is simply not the case, e.g. because it's obvious, or outright insane ("what's the big deal?", "You're crazy!")
Ne Mob: trying to come across as original, and violating Ni principles (PoLR) in the process ( "You're wrong, because such and such...")

With most of your other quotes, you simply have them mixed up with the mobilizing function, imho.

P.S. The McFly quote is an excellent example of IEE Se-role!

A good example of someone constantly using Ne-role in his videos, is Alex Jones. Ne-Paranoia all over the place, presented with lots of Se bravado:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alex+jones

[ashlesha]

Ti role definitely has nothing to do with memorizing stuff.

[Motion]

For me, Si role had always been a relation of love/hate with the mirror, little obsessions such as standing with my back straight, always wanting others to see my external appearance almost perfect, the extreme and unhealthy concern for aesthetic dissonances.

[Myst]

I think it is a little bit interesting in how the role function manifest with each type. Despite being devalued, we feel the need to develop the role function as means of being accepted by others and society. This development might be the reason look-a-like types start looking more and more alike as they get older.

I will make a list of the role functions and the ways I've seen effort being put into them:

Si role: Going on a diet, buying fancy clothes, honing in on art skills

Ni role: Joining a religion, making emergency provisions for the future

Ti role: Pursuing high level education, engaging in intellectual activities

Fi role: Affiliating with political movements, reaching out to old friends

Se role: Working out, joining the military, engaging in masculine hobbies

Ne role: Traveling to new places, catching up on media and entertainment

Te role: Setting ambitious careers goals, collecting and reading books

Fe role: Attending counseling, organizing formal social events

What in particular makes these behaviours role function related and not simply related to the IE in general regardless of function position?

[Myst]

I see Fi role as basically trying to be polite to people I don't know well, remaining non-offensive if possible, and keeping most of my thoughts to myself.


Edit to add: None of which I enjoy or "want to show off."

Yeah I don't enjoy placing that much restriction on myself either but it's what I do in those generic situations. Especially the last one is what gets harder over time, keeping my opinions to myself.

[The Exception]

Si role: Going on a diet, buying fancy clothes, honing in on art skills

Diets- have done from time to time
Fancy clothes- nope
Art skills- not interested

Ni role: Joining a religion, making emergency provisions for the future
Joining religion- no
Emergency provisions for the future- sort of. I don't have a bomb shelter or anything like that, but I do have a sizeable savings account should something go bad and insurance

Ti role: Pursuing high level education, engaging in intellectual activities
A strong yes to both

Fi role: Affiliating with political movements, reaching out to old friends
Political movements- I'm not really active in any movements like protests and the like, but I do have some strong political views on some issues
Reaching out to old friends- I do this from time-to-time but I still manage to 'drift apart' from old friends

Se role: Working out, joining the military, engaging in masculine hobbies
Working out- I do this from time to time but it's more for health reasons (Si)
Military- hell no
Masculine hobbies- no

Ne role: Traveling to new places, catching up on media and entertainment
New places- love doing this
Media/entertainment- partially yes/partially no. I'm often oblivious to what's currently popular but at the same time I'm often curious to see what the 'hype' is about and don't want to miss out on something potentially good.

Te role: Setting ambitious careers goals, collecting and reading books
Career goals- yes. Not so much for climbing the corporate ladder but I do want to grow professionally and be seen as successful
Collecting and reading books- Yes!

Fe role: Attending counseling, organizing formal social events
Attending counseling- have done this in the past for personal problems
Organizing formal social events- I have on occasion but mostly they are informal

[Muddy]

What in particular makes these behaviours role function related and not simply related to the IE in general regardless of function position?

These behaviors would seem normal in the position of other functions (especially the ego), or in the case of the polr/ignoring rarely to never done at all. (Except for maybe SLI and those Se role activities I mentioned) The role does these activities in random periodic burst, so it becomes very visible and obvious when a person is doing these through the role function. Mobilizing may also do these periodically but it doesn't seem as out of character as it does in the role. The only other function that might engage in these randomly is perhaps the DS seeking function under direct influence from a dual.

[Jeremy8419]

Role isn't randomly used. It's basically always used in the social sphere as what aspect of reality needs to be maintained as "normal." Person: "I need water to live." LSI: "I need normative relationships to live." ILE: "I need normative force to live." ESI: "I need normative structures/laws/logic to live." IEI: "I need normative sensations to live." If you don't maintain the Role, society puts an end to you.

[Jeremy8419]

Another point is that Role alone, as all functions, does nothing; only a functional pair can complete subjective judgement plus external response. Role+Creative is used substantially (business ITR), as is Role+PoLR (Super-Ego).

Example EII:
By maintaining the social facade of primary modus operandi of accepting energy extroverted onto him/her for logical reasoning and responding with extroverting force or potentials to connect others with said logical reasoning, the enemies (SLE first and foremost) will not pressure his force to such a point that "attack" is turned on, which will lead to the destruction of formation of positive relationships (the leading). Due to the unfiltered strength of 1D, this "attack" would simultaneously cause the enemy to succeed in formation of a group to attack their own enemy, the EII.

Example SLE:
Similar setup to the EII; however, the "death" of the SLE is simply the formation of positive relationships which do not include the SLE, leaving his Ego, his "intelligence" unable to form groups to attack, leaving him alone and (since humans are social creatures) basically alone to die.

Simpler example of IEI:
Uses emotions in attempts to appear sensually focused, so others will not think they care about efficiency well enough to want to pressure the fact that they're essentially worthless other than predictions and being emotional.

[Muddy]

Role isn't randomly used. It's basically always used in the social sphere as what aspect of reality needs to be maintained as "normal." Person: "I need water to live." LSI: "I need normative relationships to live." ILE: "I need normative force to live." ESI: "I need normative structures/laws/logic to live." IEI: "I need normative sensations to live." If you don't maintain the Role, society puts an end to you.

What I mean when I say the role is used randomly is that the role sometimes makes these displays when it is pressured to show society that it is capable. Examples:

Si role: "Look at how much weight I lost on this new diet"- Proceeds to gain the weight right back in couple of weeks.

Fe role: "Look at how I let people act loose and playfully that day"- Dry and down to business the other 364 days of the year.

Te role: "Look at how productive I am to society with this line of work I'm in"- Quits in a few months and goes to mcdonalds



I am confusing this with the polr? Let me know what you think.

[Jeremy8419]

What I mean when I say the role is used randomly is that the role sometimes makes these displays when it is pressured to show society that it is capable. Examples:

Si role: "Look at how much weight I lost on this new diet"- Proceeds to gain the weight right back in couple of weeks.

Fe role: "Look at how I let people act loose and playfully that day"- Dry and down to business the other 364 days of the year.

Te role: "Look at how productive I am to society with this line of work I'm in"- Quits in a few months and goes to mcdonalds

I am confusing this with the polr? Let me know what you think.

The Si sounds more like Se. Si is more about interactions of spaces. A good example is physical looks: A girl can have big ole titties a nice butt and expensive jewelry, however, her face has poor symmetry and it's features just don't match up well (big lips but beady eyes or something) and although her TnA is good, her body is disproportionate and she doesn't look health. In such case, it would be Se; she's relatively fit and maintains an "appearance of desire/stature/whatever" but stuff just doesn't "jive well." Compare this to a Si girl who dresses modestly and has little TnA but looks healthy and is aesthetically pleasing because all her individual features mesh well. In your example, the focus appears to be on simply having the "appearance of" X, or in other words, a single objective trait devoid of the interactions of the remainder of her traits. Maybe due to the remainder of her traits, the weight loss looks like shit from Si perspective?

The Fe role is also Fi. Extroverted actions are just that. They are from the self. They require their introverted counterparts to do any sort of comparison. Fe Role would be the user seemingly displaying "normal" emotional usage in public.

Te role isn't bad, but Role still isn't situational in this regard. You'll always be the quote when in social non-intimate sphere. The "off" would rather be when you got to know the person and they feel comfortable with you, that they'd make it aware that they just seem Te to Everyone all the time because they feel like they "have to" and it will probably also become evident that when their alone at home or whatever that they really don't do jack-crap but lay around all day watching TV and eating cupcakes.

[Muddy]

The Si sounds more like Se.

The Fe role is also Fi.

That might be because Si role is tied to Se valuing and Fe role is Fi valuing. Therefore work on the role is tinted somewhat to the DS seeking function. The action is itself related the role and the motivation behind it related to the DS.

[Jeremy8419]

That might be because Si role is tied to Se valuing and Fe role is Fi valuing. Therefore work on the role is tinted somewhat to the DS seeking function. The action is itself related the role and the motivation behind it related to the DS.

That's true, but you'll have to separate the two correctly to have accurate role descriptions.

Another example: Take for instance the stereotypical "airy" and sensual IEI, whose descriptions most closely match an amorous narcissist. The primary of the stereotypical vision is actually the Role: Sensual, aesthetically pleasing, indulgent, etc. Following such, she will also situationally display strong emotional warmth. So you basically have a girl waiting to get taken to be laid. This leads into the real purpose of the creation of positive futures for the self and negative ones for the enemies. In so doing such, she attains Force. Full-circle, her stereotype of sensuality in society leads into DS of personal power/stature.

[Myst]

These behaviors would seem normal in the position of other functions (especially the ego), or in the case of the polr/ignoring rarely to never done at all. (Except for maybe SLI and those Se role activities I mentioned) The role does these activities in random periodic burst, so it becomes very visible and obvious when a person is doing these through the role function. Mobilizing may also do these periodically but it doesn't seem as out of character as it does in the role. The only other function that might engage in these randomly is perhaps the DS seeking function under direct influence from a dual.

It was more a rhetorical question. Keep speculating tho'.

[chemical]

I think I take the perspective that the dual/HA aren't so much "used" (at least directly towards the ego's aims) so much as implicitly part of the perspective taken by the ego. And it's basically as if, because they are the complementary perspectives, they hold a relatively independent position in the psyche, rather than essentially being "obligations" thrust on the ego's perspective that must be consciously handled. The role often seems like it appears as one of these obligations. The id block I view mostly in terms of saying, while the i/e differentiate out to create a unique perspective, there's a certain integrity to the informational processes of N, T, S, F themselves (in fact Jung would say there are 4 functions, but 8 ego-orientations that result from them).

I don't tend to be convinced by views that de-emphasize some dichotomies in favor of others, such as ones that de-emphasize that NTs have a lot in common, even if there are 2 very different flavors of them....in favor of overly suggesting say, a SEI and ILE have a ton in common. HA may be more understandable, but the DS is highly highly outside of the conscious perspective, and should only be realized as an implicit influence (unless the person isn't differentiated).

[Muddy]

I was thinking about this a little more. I think the role is exerted foolishly sometimes to provoke a dual to teach the alternative approach in the DS function. Examples:

Ti role rigidly adheres to the rules and established systems of doing things. Provokes Te base to come over and say" Hey, it might be better to do it this way".

Se role exhaust themselves by exerting all their energy and power on a task. Provokes Si base to say, "Hey, why don't you give your body a rest and relax?"

Fi role acts serious and dry. Provokes Fe base to loosen them up.

Ne role displays their unique interest, hobbies and skills. Provokes Ni base to develop a plan that will put his talents to uses.

[Jeremy8419]

They directly feed each other, the role and DS, that is.

Ti = comparisons of objects, Te = objective qualities of objects. Te DS wants to know more stuff about stuff, which allows a "more correct Ti." In example, "I can use this and this and this object to do that." "There's also this object you don't know about." "Ooooo yeah, now I can do that better because of this new piece."

Fi: "Ima have these relationships." "Something something something this person has these feelings." "Really? Oh cool, now better relationships."

[ConcreteButterfly]

Something else about the role function is that it is a person's first response to stress. A situation which is secure and familiar will trigger the observing function instead.

eg
ILI
In stressful situations they become focused on surrounding space, the quality of the space and the things/people within it, what impressions they make ( role)

In familiar safe situations, they are producing external harmony, reducing external conflicts. Going with the flow ( observing)


SLI

Under stress they become focused on the succession of events, likely future developments, the pace and timeliness of actions ( role)

In secure situations they are extending themselves outward, expending physical energy, occupying space ( observing)



Over time the role function become gets more sensitive to stress, so it reacts faster. Consequently the role function can be mistaken for one's base.

[ConcreteButterfly]

the role function is part of the superego block, equivalent to Jung's persona:

"Jung said that, ‘The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is." Robert Johnson refers to the persona as our "psychological clothing." The persona refers to that aspect of the ego that we present to the world for its approval. It is like a mask and we can hide behind it.
The word "persona" comes from the Greek word for the large masks that early Greek actors would use to portray their characters. With audiences in the big Greek amphitheater the nuances of performances could easily be lost. The primary function of the mask was not to hide the actor but give information about the character. The persona is the mask or role that a person plays in society. While it gives information it can be used to hide the ego.

As a social role the concept of the persona is useful in allowing an individual to move in and out of relationships without being too vulnerable. A persona can be the oil to ease potential social friction. A persona provides for some predictability of relationship. For example, the personas of doctor and patient or of student and teacher can be useful in knowing what to do, when, and where. Other examples of the persona are: mother, father, husband, wife, lawyer, judge, policeman, baker. A persona becomes a problem only when a person becomes too attached to it and can not put it aside. For example, when someone who is a judge is a "judge" all the time at work and at home. Or perhaps, a teacher who is in her role all the time. When a person cannot move flexibly between roles then the persona not only hides the person from others but also from himself. It is difficult for such a person to have appropriate self-knowledge.

An overemphasis on the persona not only blocks avenues of communication between people but also between the ego and the darker aspects of the personality that need to be acknowledged. These darker aspects are represented by the shadow."

[consentingadult]

I am ILE normalizing. My role makes me a workaholic

Somehow I missed this, but I have yet to meet a workaholic ILE. Playaholic ILEs, okay, but workaholic ILEs, nah....

[sbbds]

I was thinking about this a little more. I think the role is exerted foolishly sometimes to provoke a dual to teach the alternative approach in the DS function. Examples:

Ti role rigidly adheres to the rules and established systems of doing things. Provokes Te base to come over and say" Hey, it might be better to do it this way".

Se role exhaust themselves by exerting all their energy and power on a task. Provokes Si base to say, "Hey, why don't you give your body a rest and relax?"

Fi role acts serious and dry. Provokes Fe base to loosen them up.

Ne role displays their unique interest, hobbies and skills. Provokes Ni base to develop a plan that will put his talents to uses.

Si role pathetically drinks green juice. Provokes Se base to give them a burger