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Thread: The earth is round

  1. #761
    Jarno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    It saddens me that people who question the media and history and those who believe in silly things like flat earth, reptilians, ghosts and fake moon landings are put in the exact same category: conspiracy theorist. It's either you have to accept everything you are told in the media and history or you accept every other loony toon idea on the internet. Thinking for yourself (questioning everything and coming to your own truth with critical thinking) isn't allowed in this society or at least you are not allowed to be vocal about it and must keep it to yourself for the most part.
    Well there are 2 ways of critical thinking, dialectical though pattern and monological.
    I'm only putting the latter in the conspiracy group...

    Thinking for yourself is very good! However some people have a disability in that area, and with that come to really weird conclusions.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Nope, its actual perspective. You have to use a fish eye camera lens to "prove" the earth curves. Instruments do NOT prove a ball earth. They prove a flat one.

    You need theory to "prove" a ball planet, and to prove a far away sun, since actual observation and real science doesn't support it. You need a blackboard full of equations that no one else can understand, so you tell them what they are supposed to think it means.
    Not so. Using your eyes, you can see the Earth is curved merely by looking at the horizon when looking out to sea. Our eyes are not fish eye lens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    flat earth theories are in it's worst incarnation—senseless possibilities masquerading as the truth. this thread is a good case study, if you have the mental power to withstand the mind-numbingly erroneous claims from flat earthers. if you think this is bad, try talking to a flat earther in real life. it's absolutely exhausting. an odd contradiction i've noted about dysfunctional -valuers is that they are open-minded (perhaps too much so) but once they have latched onto an idea they won't let go, against all factual evidence, until they have had conclusive personal experience to disprove it. unfortunately, you cannot refute a flat-earther in that fashion, as space travel is currently quite pricey.

    it's pointless to argue with someone so blinded by their own ideological hubris, they live in their own world and recognize only that which affirms it. the only way to win is to not play. after nearly 20 pages, it's clear that Eliza isn't interested in conceding to anyone's points, which is a huge red flag.
    Considering something to be true that is impossible is the opposite of open-minded. It is the perspective of someone who has a very limited knowledge of reality and who adopts a perspective because they believe the fundamentalist ideology they have been indoctrinated with says the impossible is true, even when it can be readily disproved empirically.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    but that's the thing. they don't trust empirical knowledge. in fact, when their beliefs are contradicted by empirical knowledge, they see it as further evidence of their righteousness, somehow. "because The Government doesn't want you to know" ...why, exactly? it's true that our government has done lots of shady and unscrupulous things, but i don't think hiding the earth's true shape would benefit them whatsoever.

    and i suppose what i really meant by "open-minded" is that they are open to fantastical, grandiose beliefs that others might not be. i didn't mean it in the sense of "reasonable" or "accepting".
    I think in such cases, it is best to attempt to argue on their terms, e.g. pointing out that the Catholic Church in the 21st century do not believe the world is flat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Well there are 2 ways of critical thinking, dialectical though pattern and monological.
    I'm only putting the latter in the conspiracy group...

    Thinking for yourself is very good! However some people have a disability in that area, and with that come to really weird conclusions.
    Agreed, but keep in mind that there are some in the conspiracy group that have a dialectical thought pattern and some out of the conspiracy group that are in the monological though pattern as well. It's the ones that believe in ludicrous conspiracy theories or rejects all of them that are two opposite extremes that are unhealthy. The truth is that a tiny percentage of conspiracy theories may actually be true, but the trick is figuring out which ones are true after rejecting the vast majority of them.
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    Aaaaaahhhhhh...
    Because the world is round, it turns me on

    Because the wind is high, it blows my mind
    Because the wind is high...aaaaaaaahhhh

    Love is old, love is new
    Love is all, love is you

    Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry
    Because the sky is blue...aaaaaaaahhhh

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Not so. Using your eyes, you can see the Earth is curved merely by looking at the horizon when looking out to sea. Our eyes are not fish eye lens.
    NO. This is untrue. It is your mind playing a trick on you, in accord with the info you have told it was truth - ["the horizon/ the sea is a big curve"]. However, you can override that trick of the mind by simply holding up any straight edge, like a piece of paper. Look: its reality.

    You have to admit that using a straight edge is more scientific than "It looks curved to me!" And you get the SAME result with a straight edge, EVERY time, everywhere. Even high in a plane (try it next time you are on one) and from a weather balloon.

    Curved earth is a theory, not explainable by any documentable observation. (Computer generated and artist manipulated images do not count).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Oh look, every planet and surrounding moons, our moon and the sun in the solar system is round when you look through a telescope (nothing taken from space here, it's all from Earth):





    However, the Earth is flat because it defies the laws of physics and is special just because...Give me a break. -_-
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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    @Eliza Thomason -- What is the motive for the people who say the Earth is not a sphere?
    Motive - I think I look less at what is the motive than the concrete reason people even consider the theory. Motives are speculation, not very concrete. Because it is amazing that anyone does consider the theory, when we all KNOW the earth is a ball. We have seen a ball-globe in every classroom from the first day of school and in every important place of learning and in every well-appointed room, when all the respected institutes on earth only laugh at the possibly of any truth to a flat earth theory - they already all told us not to bother with this theory, so why would we? Therefore, why should anyone of intelligence even consider this? Then there is the universally loved "image" of the Blue Marble in space. We love it, it feels so beautiful to think we look like that in space. (But its created manipulated images that NASA is more than willing to allow us to believe is reality, though their words otherwise - by at least one of its official artists - can be found on the internet).

    The fact is its too much a threat to too many people to consider it. (I wont hazard a guess at percent - but it seems like a big one.) Most of us see the government and mainstream media as sort of comfy trusted paternal figures who are honest and will tell us the truth in all matters of importance. Yes, they can have their issues, but basically, overall, they tell us the truth. To question that accepted reality gets one into cognitive dissidence. Not a nice place to be. So most people won't even go there, and will ignore any idea contrary to this, and will beat it off with mockery. Such things are dismissed as kooky conspiracy theories ("kooky" and "conspiracy theory", the mainstream media makes it plain, are synonymous).

    I reflect that the idea we are supposed to believe that most conspiracy theories are for kooks is not realistic. Look at real life. People in real life present false fronts regularly. Particularly in positions of power. What about secrets? Do people keep secrets? Yes. Their entire lives. Are people you know generally upfront and completely transparent to all the people they know at work and in their personal lives and to any inquiring strangers, about everything they think and stand for? Of course not. People withhold, and they have a public face - what they want the public to know. People are naturally self-protective. Another matter is that many people are people of ill will.

    [Note: this is theological thought, so ignore if you don't like: I often think that's why God changed our lives from a length of 100's of years to under a 100 years after the Flood (i.e., "When Noah was five hundred years old, he begat Shem, Ham and Japheth."...) My thought is that by Noah's time the combination of evil in the world and our free will became just too much for the good of souls on earth, and God had to intervene to prevent our too-fast self-destruction. Because we choose, over our lives, good and evil, again and again, but at some point we have a preference and we take a fork in the road and it becomes more unlikely to turn back (God's grace is always available, though, in measures as-needed). If one chooses a life of evil (selfishness, ill will, etc.) at age 15 or 50 -- we get set in our way. The older we get the harder it gets to turn back. If we only live to be 100 or less then there is so much less destruction to the innocents and the earth if we all just die sooner. And make way for the new generation of hope...]


    Back to topic. Does human nature suddenly change when people get together in organizations, so that the organizations appear now as ideal humans, instead of everyday humans? Do organizations, instead, present complete transparency, and do away with all false fronts, and have no significant secrets kept for the entire life of the organization? I think not. They are still run by people, so, they take on the characteristics of people, just in a bigger way. Maybe more so. Power corrupts, and the bigger the organization (governments and other prestigious organizations of power and money) the more likely it is you see the same very same results of exposure to power and prestige that we see in individuals. Just on a grander scale. (Just look at our presidential candidates for freak show of how power and prestige affects individuals).

    Back to your original question, Sapphire, of "what is the motive"? You are asking, what is the motive of the ones in governments, NASA, educational institutes - the ones that actually do know the truth (because it makes sense that the truth would likely be given, in these organizations, to only those on a "need to know" basis)? "What is the motive" is speculation. Like speculating, "I know my friend Ralph has always been hiding a big secret but I don't know what it is." You can only guess. So I guess I would consider such organizations to be like persons, an I imagine persons keeping secrets, especially those tempted by power, money and prestige, and imagine what would motivate a person to keep secrets? Entitlement? Feeling of superiority? Etc. There would be plenty of good guesses to consider.

    But what interests me more than speculation about the motives of the corrupted (not a very interesting topic to me) is what keeps this topic open to intelligent consideration. That has proved continually interesting to me since the day I started this thread - a day when I did not consider the thread to last more than a week, because there really couldn't be anything solid to this theory, of course. But there is. Like the fact that there is no observable curve to be seen. That sea level is sea level because the sea is level. Flight plans - why do flights disappear from ALL of the GPS plane tracking sites once you are below the equator? You can follow ALL northern hemisphere flights on earth but NONE of the southern hemisphere flights that leave the continent - they ALL disappear on leaving and reappear just before destination if they are in the southern hemisphere. I can't think of a plausible reason for that. The many mysteries of the Antarctica. There is not explanation for any of these mysteries until you connect them with flat earth theory. And the perspective of the sun and the moon and its reflection on water or in the sky at sunset - racing ball earth and far distant sun do not explain it! And why is the sunlight warm, and its shadows cool, while the moonlight is cold and its shadows warm? Two independent lights explains it. I am not saying I have accepted this, but while most people are more than willing to discount this without studying it, what I have learned makes it impossible for me to eliminate from the realm of possibility. Those are just a few of the topics that get my interest and keep it. And there are more.

    Its also okay for me to have unanswered questions and not necessary for me to dismiss what is unexplained. I have no cognitive dissonance with the idea of government or organizations could be keeping major secrets, because of what I explained here in this post. And I have no disappointment, bewilderment, or surprise these organizations might not consider me as important as I consider myself.

    Another theological thought, which you can ignore, if it offends: I don't like to think about the motives of corrupt people or corrupt organizations. Because those people have a master, and that is not my Master. The evil one and his minions are specks of dust compared to the Almighty God, but the fact is the evil one is more intelligent than me, so I don't want to get mixed up in that mind and I prefer to focus on the good, the right, the true and the beautiful. Because those things I know are all of God. Considering the motives of why corrupt people/organizations think/do what they do is just not an interest of mine. I trust God to reveal to me anything I need to know at a time I need to know it on that, and other than that I do not want to think on it. That's why you do not get a personal answer from me on speculating on motives, because there really isn't one.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Ships disappear bottom first when sailing off toward the horizon.
    ...until you use a telescope. Then they reappear! Bottom and all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Oh look, every planet and surrounding moons, our moon and the sun in the solar system is round when you look through a telescope (nothing taken from space here, it's all from Earth):..
    Yup, its round alright. And also, seen though a telescope, apparently transparent. (Not like anything you could land on!). You can see stars, for example on the dark part of the half or quarter moon... straight through never seen "dark side" of the moon, too! You know, you see are cartoon version of this in the old Proctor and Gamble logo or on some country's flags. A quarter moon with a star in the dark part of the circle. Why? I remeber asking my Dad how there could be a star there, on that logo. Its just a drawing, he said. But I was left wondering why a company, that should be in the know, would draw something impossible for their logo? Why? Except that we see it in a telescope, so its not impossible. Just unexplained with the usual theory.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ...until you use a telescope. Then they reappear! Bottom and all!

    Yup, its round alright. And also, seen though a telescope, apparently transparent. (Not like anything you could land on!). You can see stars, for example on the dark part of the half or quarter moon... straight through never seen "dark side" of the moon, too! You know, you see are cartoon version of this in the old Proctor and Gamble logo or on some country's flags. A quarter moon with a star in the dark part of the circle. Why? I remeber asking my Dad how there could be a star there, on that logo. Its just a drawing, he said. But I was left wondering why a company, that should be in the know, would draw something impossible for their logo? Why? Except that we see it in a telescope, so its not impossible. Just unexplained with the usual theory.
    What are you trying to say here? o_O What does this have to do with my point about planets in our solar system including our moon appearing round in a telescope?
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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    What are you trying to say here? o_O What does this have to do with my point about planets in our solar system including our moon appearing round in a telescope?
    Not sure what you are asking. No one argues the view of the moon is round. As to its being a ball with a never-seen "dark side" - that has been questioned by the aforementioned minority (and its apparent transparency makes a case for that).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Eh. There would have to be a motive...and to go to such lengths as would be necessary to cover the truth of a flat planet would require motives important enough to be fairly obvious and require little if any speculation.

    ... this is besides the fact that laymen can use many of the same or similar techniques as astronomers to verify that our planet is round.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    What do you think of the other planets, both in our solar system and in others, @Eliza Thomason? Do you think they are flat, round, nonexistent...?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Not sure what you are asking. No one argues the view of the moon is round. As to its being a ball with a never-seen "dark side" - that has been questioned by the aforementioned minority (and its apparent transparency makes a case for that).
    So you believe the moon is round, correct? What about the other 7 planets and their moons in the solar system including the sun, are they round too?
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    Perhaps Eliza actually lives in an alternate reality where the earth is flat. If not for the internet there would be no meeting between the two worlds. Somehow the signals penetrated the veils between dimensions. She does not realize she is communicating with people in a reality that is different from hers so cannot believe that we do, in fact, live on a round planet. Mystery solved.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    (This answers @SongOfSapphire, too)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    So you believe the moon is round, correct? What about the other 7 planets and their moons in the solar system including the sun, are they round too?
    Does it matter what I believe? I don't know why that's a topic here. I pretty much say what I have provoking thoughts on, and share that. Not everything that runs through my head is that interesting.

    FET on planets is out there and super quick and easy to find basic info on. Articles if you like them, or youtube if you are more watcher than reader, and you can pick your length. (There are minute-bits on most subjects).

    Anyone who looks into FET will find it puts into question a great deal of the "reality" we know and love. That is too uncomfortable for most people. It can make them feel unsafe. It threatens cognitive dissidence. Stressful. Solar system science is not to us a theory, but plain reality! Then FET presents actual observations - telescope observations, for example, which question what we have always been led to believe is solid reality - since the 1950s for sure. All our favorite SciFi movies too! (which started up around then). Most people don't want to consider the real questions raised there. Some people are so frightened by them so they not only don't consider it, but they mock what they have not even considered. We know NASA lies, that's no biggie. But is it about just a few big things, or, basically about everything? That's a question.

    __________
    *[I am assuming of course that at least some of what I say is interesting. Based on the fact we have now reached page 20 somehow. Er, well, it could also be other reasons like social responsibility - persons passionately beating down offensive ideas, like a mob of book burners...or something...]
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 09-27-2016 at 04:47 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  18. #778
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Perhaps Eliza actually lives in an alternate reality where the earth is flat. If not for the internet there would be no meeting between the two worlds. Somehow the signals penetrated the veils between dimensions. She does not realize she is communicating with people in a reality that is different from hers so cannot believe that we do, in fact, live on a round planet. Mystery solved.
    Well this is a compromise that could be made which could aid anyone perched on the dissident edge...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    (This answers @SongOfSapphire, too)
    Does it matter what I believe? I don't know why that's a topic here. I pretty much say what I have provoking thoughts on, and share that. Not everything that runs through my head is that interesting.
    It is very important to know on whether you believe the rest of the planets in the solar system are round or not to understand where you're coming from and to see if there's consistency and logic in what you're claiming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    It is very important to know on whether you believe the rest of the planets in the solar system are round or not to understand where you're coming from and to see if there's consistency and logic in what you're claiming.
    Not sure why still. Sorry, I am not following your thinking. Not blaming that on you! I think I am freezing up. Too many demands on this thread on my vulnerable function. I need to manage these demands or I will literally type all night. I started this thread as a conversation starter, NOT so I could be a pontificater for a scientific theory I had only just learned the existence of.

    Honestly you really don't want me to be the one to tell you what I think FET says on planets. If I find a fact I find intriguing, I post it here, but do you want me to explain what the theory says on various topics? I honestly think not.

    So on this thread I am not volunteering to be the one to summarize and teach the fine points of flat earth theory. My posts will be way too long for the average person to want to read, and that's because I have to use my vulnerable function to do it. Its already happened all over this thread. People dash off a brief sentence to me on this thread, a question or some scoffing, and hit send and then they go about their day, or back to their online games. Then I see it and there goes a sizable chunk of my day as I try to answer it. And I answer the sentence just like this [from here]:

    IEEs tend to have a difficult time describing a concept or system in a manner in which the essential facts are all that is needed to understand or describe it. The IEE's focus in describing a concept or system is in how they themselves came to understand and see what they are describing. If an IEE is asked to describe or explain something, their natural tendency is to describe the pieces of the concept, system or idea that are related to the subject as a foundation before explaining the actual concept itself. The IEE will often describe details or aspects of a system that are unnecessary to the understanding of the system's properties, but the IEE views these details as essential functions of a sequential system (as opposed to describing the concept or system and only the concept or system as an independent entity). In other words, even if a detail is deemed outside of the IEE as extraneous, the IEE that is describing it will see it as a vital and significant part of a chain in order to paint the full, "proper" picture of the system the IEE wants to describe. An IEE will tend to start off explanations with a tremendous amount of detail, energy and patience and will move towards a more general explanation as they tire out (if they tire out). If something in the IEE's chain is broken or questioned, the description (in the IEE's mind) halts or falls apart.

    When an IEE understands a logical concept or system, they are much better at describing anecdotal experiences with the concept or system that help to illustrate the concept or system. They would prefer to do this rather than describing the concept or system as described in the previous paragraph -- describe the essential facts of a concept or system...
    [continues with more all about IEE and Ti, in the source linked above]

    Yup. That's exactly what I do. I have demonstrated my eptitude for the above-explained method all over this board. Many people read it, and conclude: "I need a nap", or, "Eliza's a bore." But not really! I am just an IEE, using my Ti function in the best way I know how...

    (You see there is a Holographic-Panoramic thinker in every quadra. It starts our heartily in the first quadra with Alpha's LII putting venerable use to Ti in the first function. But by the time you get to the last quadra, what you are down to is someone who uses it with Ti in vulnerable function - and this is the result.).

    My husband, when I go into this mode - which can happen - he is an "asker" - will listen to the whole thing with patience (and a bit of effort). But what really makes him awesome gold is that he understands it all, and he remembers what I said.

    So you see I am not endeavoring to add to the online FET knowledge-base. And please know that I am not answering your planet questions out of real charity to YOU. Because I just don't know how to present what I learned without also tying in what is said in the pertinent connected issues, like, the "firmament above", or, the prolific evidence of NASA space travel hoaxes, and lots more. Believe me - any question that pops in your head concerning how FET explains anything has already been asked by someone else, and so you can quickly find an article or a brief video for any part of FET explanations you have curiosity for. Those 1-5 minute videos I am sure you will find to be a much better use of your time than the sort of explanations I generate on a key board, powered by my 4th function....

    ___________
    P.S. That was a lot of typing and time. But hopefully I will manage questions that request my knowledge with "Please look at post #788 on page 20..."
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 09-27-2016 at 05:42 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    Eh. There would have to be a motive...and to go to such lengths as would be necessary to cover the truth of a flat planet would require motives important enough to be fairly obvious and require little if any speculation.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    ... this is besides the fact that laymen can use many of the same or similar techniques as astronomers to verify that our planet is round.
    By round you mean a ball of course. (FET's flat earth is round, too - with a round dome/firmament beginning somewhere outside the steep circumference of the Antarctic wall. So basically both theories refer to round earth).

    I also thought astronomer's observations certainly would would be a sure thing for verifying the solar system that we have been taught. Then I found FET has plausible disproofs for these "verifications", while ball-earth's [sorry for the strange but useful term] theory instead lacks solid scientific observations, relying on complex theories full of holes and problems for - well, all key points, so far.

    That is what I have seen. If you wanted to test that with some known sure fact, just read/see what FET says on that particular issue.. but be careful - one issue leads to the next!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  22. #782
    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
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    Yes, I meant like a ball...spherical.

    I appreciate you responding to my questions. I am still very skeptical... like w religion we will just have to agree to disagree, but I do find your perspective interesting.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    NO. This is untrue. It is your mind playing a trick on you, in accord with the info you have told it was truth - ["the horizon/ the sea is a big curve"]. However, you can override that trick of the mind by simply holding up any straight edge, like a piece of paper. Look: its reality.

    You have to admit that using a straight edge is more scientific than "It looks curved to me!" And you get the SAME result with a straight edge, EVERY time, everywhere. Even high in a plane (try it next time you are on one) and from a weather balloon.

    Curved earth is a theory, not explainable by any documentable observation. (Computer generated and artist manipulated images do not count).
    No, the horizon while at sea is demonstrably curved. As water always finds its own level, and therefore the surface of the water is pulled flat by the force of gravity, the Earth must be spherical. You do not need to get into an airplane and fly around the globe in order to see that.

    By the way, the definition of a theory in the scientific sense is as follows:
    (sciences) A coherent statement or set of ideas that explains observed facts or phenomena, or which sets out the laws and principles of something known or observed; a hypothesis confirmed by observation, experiment etc. [from 17th c.]

    Even the Catholic Church thinks the Earth is a sphere, so it is alright for you to live in the 21st century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ...until you use a telescope. Then they reappear! Bottom and all!
    Totally false. A telescope cannot make something which appears to have dropped below the horizon reappear again.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    No, the horizon while at sea is demonstrably curved. As water always finds its own level, and therefore the surface of the water is pulled flat by the force of gravity, the Earth must be spherical. You do not need to get into an airplane and fly around the globe in order to see that.
    Isn't this what any 4th grader on earth could parrot back? We all know the drill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Totally false. A telescope cannot make something which appears to have dropped below the horizon reappear again.

    (2 minutes, 20 seconds)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  26. #786
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Isn't this what any 4th grader on earth could parrot back? We all know the drill.
    That does not detract from the fact that it is correct. Further, not only is it correct, the knowledge has been of real practical benefit in many fields. It works.

    Again, not only do 4th graders know this to be true, even the pope knows it to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post

    (2 minutes, 20 seconds)
    Total nonsense.

    If the bottom of a ship appears to have gone below the horizon on a clear day, there is no illusion. Similarly, if you fly across the ocean from the US to the UK, you do not see the whole Earth at once, because the Earth is not flat, it is curved. You can see the full Moon despite it being 400,000 kilometres away because it is in your direct line of sight. You cannot however see Beijing from Buenos Aires no matter what you do.

    If you actually measure the horizon, you will determine that is in curved. This is especially pronounced from the top of a hill, from an airplane, and from space.

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    That does not detract from the fact that it is correct. Further, not only is it correct, the knowledge has been of real practical benefit in many fields. It works.

    Again, not only do 4th graders know this to be true, even the pope knows it to be true.





    Maybe someone posted a link to this article before too. I actually found it kind of funny but equally weird since it claims FET was created as a Psyop to see how gullible people are


    Flat Earth Hoax: Began As a Ridiculous Farce to See How Gullible People Would Be

    TMR Editor’s Note:
    There is perhaps no other internet hoax that is more ludicrous than the Flat Earth Theory. We’re talking about the most nonsensical and preposterous, laughable and foolish hoax in history! Yes, it is that zany and loony, wacky and silly.

    However, what is really crazy is how many people are buying into it. That is where the silliness ends and the serious PSYOP begins. That is also where the Tavistock Institute intersects with the NSA, Facebook collaborates with the CIA, and YouTube and Google really drive some heavy traffic IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. The spooks are watching the evolution of this PSYOP very, very closely. After all, they started it.

    All anyone has to do is read the following post by the Thunderbolts scientists and they will quickly understand the error and folly of the hysterical Flat Earth Theory hoax.

    The Electric Universe

    How’s that for an elegant and thoroughly scientific theory of astrophysics—an Electric, Plasma-filled Universe ?!

    Here is one more enlightening piece for the all flat earthers: The Thunderbolts Project. Perhaps they can send these two links to their handlers at the Tavistock Institute.

    The Millennium Report

    http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...e-3273014.html
    I would like to see a live debate between the two sides.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Total nonsense.

    If the bottom of a ship appears to have gone below the horizon on a clear day, there is no illusion.
    It only takes two minutes to watch the video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Similarly, if you fly across the ocean from the US to the UK, you do not see the whole Earth at once, because the Earth is not flat, it is curved. You can see the full Moon despite it being 400,000 kilometres away because it is in your direct line of sight..
    The sun and moon have a whole different size and place in FET. Its also a whole different map. More like a straight line through the tip Greenland.

    Different theory. Different map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you actually measure the horizon, you will determine that is in curved. This is especially pronounced from the top of a hill, from an airplane, and from space.
    Yes, its true - we have all been taught to believe the same thing.

    However, if you actually measure the horizon, you will determine that it is straight. Especially from the top of a hill, or from an airplane.

    (Unfortunately, no one has actually seen the earth from space. Only computer assisted compilations and artistically enhanced renderings of what it theoretically looks like. NASA has some excellent artists!)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  30. #790
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Flat earth Theory - in five minutes

    Flat Earth Theory in five minutes:


    "...No matter if you on the ground, on top of a building, a mountain, a hot air balloon, an airplane, or looking at high altitude amatueur balloon footage, the horizon never fails to rise right to your eyes. Whether you are looking.. 43.. 108... miles away... you will not see any curvature where it is supposed to be..."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  31. #791
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Model of Planets over Flat Earth

    @Raver and @SongOfSapphire - seeing a model is easier the easiest way to see where planets are on FET:

    (Two minutes, 47 seconds)
    ____________________________
    The video below is my favorite model I have seen where you can observe flat still earth and how the motion of the sun and moon as well as the planets and stars and calender and constellations all work in perfect consistency. Just like we see in our age and in every age of man. It's never changed. As if we were flat and still, and the sun and stars and planets moved around above us in a perfect order.

    (The model in this video starts at about the one minute mark, and the video length is altogether 4 minutes, 29 seconds):


    If we really are a ball in a solar system, spinning 1000pph, and while also doing this: http://www.universetoday.com/wp-cont...lh1io1_400.gif then how can we see any pattern in the stars and count the days month years by them? It cannot be figured. Because in that image/gif just linked above, the back ground stars remain the same while the solar system whirls crazily, but it you are a speck on a speed-spinning ball that is also twirling and whirling like that, the star background is going to appear quite different from the imaginary observer standing still taking that "picture".


    Its like God put those two lights in the sky just for us. One for day, one for night. And the stars, in their perfect order, turning around the North Star. It never changes. As seen in this beautiful time lapse: http://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/...oworlds-3.jpeg

    I appreciate what you say, Sapphire, that its interesting to consider, even if you don't believe it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  32. #792
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @Subteigh, this guy is speaking to you at the 4.40 mark til the 5.05 mark!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  33. #793
    Kim's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason if the earth is flat, do you fall off when you sail too far? What happens at the edge?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    @Eliza Thomason if the earth is flat, do you fall off when you sail too far? What happens at the edge?
    That's not a part of FET. The majestic antarctic wall is the circumference - see photos of it online, or read of Captain Cooks attempt to sail around it. And you are not allowed to go see it on your own - there are severe restrictions about viewing it, under international law... and the travel to it that is allowed is under highly regulated laws, which, for example, place strict limits on how much fuel and even FOOD can be on board a ship bound to the Antarctica. No such laws for any other place on earth...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  35. #795
    :popcorn: Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    That's not a part of FET. The majestic antarctic wall is the circumference - see photos of it online, or read of Captain Cooks attempt to sail around it. And you are not allowed to go see it on your own - there are severe restrictions about viewing it, under international law... and the travel to it that is allowed is under highly regulated laws, which, for example, place strict limits on how much fuel and even FOOD can be on board a ship bound to the Antarctica. No such laws for any other place on earth...
    Here are just a few of the private companies that offer cruises and/or expeditions to Antarctica:


    Here is an article from WikiHow on 3 Ways to Travel to Antarctica.

    The International Association of Antarctic Tour Operators, a non-government, member organization that advocates "safe and environmentally responsible private-sector travel to the Antarctic," has this to say on the massive amounts of red tape surrounding private travel to Antarctica:

    HOW IS ANTARCTICA GOVERNED? WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERSEEING THE TOURISM INDUSTRY?

    There is no formalized central government in Antarctica. Rather, it is managed through the Antarctic Treaty of 1959. Originally signed by 12 nations and now including 48, the treaty designates the entire continent as a "natural reserve devoted to peace and science". It specifically bans military use, disposing of radioactive waste materials, and any kind of nuclear testing. Under the treaty, tourism is considered to be a legitimate activity to Antarctica, and has been largely self-managed for the past 40 years. [Emphasis added]

    So, uh, in closing: What the fuck are you talking about? There's nothing stopping anyone -- even you -- from traveling to Antarctica if you have the means. The same goes for the North Pole, as well.

  36. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    That's not a part of FET. The majestic antarctic wall is the circumference - see photos of it online, or read of Captain Cooks attempt to sail around it. And you are not allowed to go see it on your own - there are severe restrictions about viewing it, under international law... and the travel to it that is allowed is under highly regulated laws, which, for example, place strict limits on how much fuel and even FOOD can be on board a ship bound to the Antarctica. No such laws for any other place on earth...
    CPig has already addressed one issue there (you are free to travel Antarctica), but then what if you travel straight West or East (from Panama City, for example). With car and boat. You will never hit ice.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    imo, @Subteigh's points being the same ones 4th graders would make helps the case for Earth being spherical; the science is so simple, even 9- and 10-year-olds understand it.

    http://www.popsci.com/10-ways-you-ca...earth-is-round
    Last edited by SongOfSapphire; 09-28-2016 at 04:29 PM. Reason: corrected "round"
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    It only takes two minutes to watch the video.:shrug
    The obvious curvature of the horizon is especially pronounced when approaching tall structures, such as oil rigs or skyscrapers. Similarly, the fact that stars appear and disappear as you move about the Earth can not be explained by a flat Earth within a dome of stars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    The sun and moon have a whole different size and place in FET. Its also a whole different map. More like a straight line through the tip Greenland.

    Different theory. Different map.
    The laws of physics are universal.

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    TIM
    RLOAI, maybe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, its true - we have all been taught to believe the same thing.

    However, if you actually measure the horizon, you will determine that it is straight. Especially from the top of a hill, or from an airplane.

    (Unfortunately, no one has actually seen the earth from space. Only computer assisted compilations and artistically enhanced renderings of what it theoretically looks like. NASA has some excellent artists!)
    False. The curvature of the Earth is possible to measure from the vantage of high places, as well as from airplanes, and from space.

    This man, for the cost of about $250, was able to send a balloon into space with a camera: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19586774

    The curvature of the Earth is obvious.

    You can do the same experiment if you wish. To accuse NASA of fabricating evidence, especially over something that has been verified independently by millions of people throughout history, is completely ludicrous.

    G.K. Chesterton once made the moronic remark that: "When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything." I think it is more the case that someone who believes in a god without evidence is capable of believing anything.

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