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Thread: Gamma Quadra Analysis

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    Default Gamma Quadra Analysis

    (This post is currently a rough draft and includes my perspective of the Gamma quadra, hopefully being as consistent with Classic socionics as possible, paragraphs may have mild disorganization, but will be renovated to better fit the more accurate descriptions of the Gamma Quadra)

    (This description is incomplete and is lacking in key points about Gamma types, more information will be added soon)

    The Gamma quadra values the IM elements of , , and . While the subdued IM elements of the Gamma quadra will be , , and . Within the Gamma quadra, you have the LIE, ESI, SEE and ILI types.

    Gamma SFs are characterized by their harsh judgements of character and desire to build close relationships with the individuals (or sources of information) that they personally trust. Gamma SFs often pay more attention to their internal emotional attitudes along with a practical and realistic approach to the world around them. Some Gamma SFs, SEEs in particular; have may have ambitions that are usually centered on furthering some real world cause or doing good in society rather than compulsive power-seeking. While other Gamma SF types, ESIs in particular; are highly reliant on their own personal attitudes towards others in directing their path through life, which can sometimes lead them down circuitous and complicated pathways and interfere with their moral rectitude. In terms of how these types assess the individual qualities of those around them, the SEEs judgments tend to be rapid and impetuous, lacking internal logical consistency but still being all around harsh. SEEs might also exhibit much more obvious moving-towards people attitude than the other Gamma types, focusing more on building positive relationships with the individuals they trust and can lack foresight in the sense of recognizing who is and who isn’t a “good person” to them. The judgements of the ESI however, are usually much more private and closed-off, commonly being motivated by their internal feelings of skepticism and distrust. ESIs can be more thoroughly evaluating of the people they come across, often reacting coldly and bitterly, almost permanently towards individuals they have had past transgressions with. Despite this, ESIs can behave less standoffish and confrontational towards the individuals they personally like, acting more consoling and empathetic towards the individuals the ESI likes. (It should be noted that ESIs are often mistaken for introverted logic types within the Socionics community, due to ignoring being overshadowed by their strong desire to keep all their emotions contained at all costs for base

    Gamma NTs are characterized by their orientation towards independently envisioning the realistic long-term and collecting relevant and useful knowledge for to optimize their productivity. Gamma NTs are inclined to evaluate information based on the reliability of its source and as such, they desire to have all the information for themselves, so they can evaluate it independently. Gamma NTs are predominantly future-oriented in their thinking, considering future developments and forecasts that have long-term implications. Gamma NTs often use knowledge as a gateway to visit complex mental landscapes that are adapted and continually revised by new information. Some Gamma NTs, particularly LIEs; possess an entrepreneurial spirit and seek to advance their own vision of some paradigmatic innovation or improvement. LIEs can also be specifically concerned with matters of efficiency and optimization of their environment and may be inclined to offer suggestions as to its improvement. In contrast to the highly pragmatic, assiduous, and proactive LIE; the imaginative, detached and reclusive ILI will be represented in a different way. Despite the LIEs encyclopedic knowledge and ambitiousness lies a rather internalized sense of mental activity, which can sometimes manifest in reflective, philosophical, and detachedly contemplative behavior which can make them resemble their ILI counterparts to some extent. Though ILIs do not actively wish to materialize their visions, while the other Gamma types have a specific degree of discipline, ambition and proactivity; these qualities are very subdued in the ILI. It should also be noted that ILIs are very prone to spending excessive amounts of time in their mind, pertaining to a solipsist perspective towards their own emotions, more often than not being out of touch with how they internally feel. In this sense, ILIs are just as concerned on factual accuracy and the rudimentary understanding of how things work as LIEs are; they simply do not emphasize this as much as LIEs. (The base function of in LIEs are always “on” and in ILIs, this is expressed as sometimes “on” or “off” in the creative function of ) ILIs also have a deep factual understanding of subjects or specialized fields of interest, often so being highly critical of others if they share the same field of interest, but do not understand it as well as the ILI does. In conflict with what was stated about ILIs earlier, some ILIs are highly competitive and deeply oriented towards their own self-efficacy, even if they resist materializing their productive efforts in a consistent way.

    Gamma types exclusively value , meaning they have a preference to take information unfiltered from specific sources, these sources are often so trustworthy people, but can also be from a book or a website that contains reliable information; often so as a result of valuing extroverted logic. Valuing and results in a specific type of integrity that prefers to see judge which information is reliable or useful vs. what is unreliable or useless, often so brings up the issue of finding the most reliable sources of information. Introverted ethics types are more disposed towards evaluating the source of the information based on their character quality of the information, or potentially for other reasons as well.

    In general, the judgement goes directly to the source, not the information itself, but whatever physical entity is supplying the information. It wouldn’t necessarily be wrong to assume that Alpha and Beta types have a tendency to criticize the information at hand, but rarely the source of the information, while the opposite occurs in the Gamma and Delta types; though in practice this is a grey-area when used as a method to find an individual’s type of information metabolism. Judgements within the Beta quadra have a tendency to appear more dynamic and expressive of how the person feels about this externally. While the Gamma quadra’s judgements have a tendency to be rather neutral or realistic in terms of how the individual feels about something. The reason for this is because of devaluing, where the emotions of most (not all) Gamma types are hidden.

    The emphasis that is deeply rooted within all Gamma types is to form meaningful relationships with the individuals or sources involved. A general rule towards the emotionality that the Gamma quadra, they are likely to carry their emotionality to be expressed inwardly and not presented to the world externally. For instance, there are many scenarios that can equally describe and prove the claim that Gamma types generally do not care what others think of them and acknowledge that they have self-centered motivations. These motivations are expressed somewhat weakly and superficially on the surface, but when observed deeper in the essence of a Gamma type; they are not so passionate about such developments.

    A major difference in telling apart Gamma extroverts and Gamma introverts, the SEE and LIE will be disposed to less critical judgement and behave in a more accepting manner towards the environments around them. The SEE will be more impulsive and will generally lack a cohesive depth in their judgments, frantically jumping from one activity to the next to attract people; often presenting themselves as attention seekers. From what we can observe about the SEE externally, is they appear socially outgoing and socially accepting, but when provoked can unleash an immense amount of anger that creates conflict and drama in situations where there shouldn’t necessarily be any at all. As a result, these particular kinds of SEEs tend to be relatively unresponsive to the social needs of other people and sometimes prefer to satisfy their own individual needs in the moment first. In addition, the emotional expression of the SEE tends to be variably intense and spontaneous.

    Gamma extroverts tend to have a greater entrepreneurial spirit compared to other types and a more prominent expression of independence as a rule for these types. In this sense, it would appear that the Gamma extroverts are more demanding and impatient than the Gamma introverts. Almost always as a result of pushing the extroverted IM elements of their quadra; and valuing. While in contrast, the Gamma introverts are more thoughtful, yet more rigorously judgemental and focused more on their inner world of preferences; and valuing.

    The Gamma type that is the least skillful in navigating the world of people and relationships with others is the LIE. This is mainly because this type is often phenomenally unskilled in navigating the world of people, because of suggestive and creative in a sense of focusing greatly on their own goals in which they have a great sense of personal ambition and become absorbed in their work often at the expense of neglecting their personal lives; though there is a great deal of variability in calculating this. A major difference between the LIE and LSE, is the LIE can articulate it's goals and formulate sources to further benefit these goals in a way that the LSE is not always inherently familiar of. Even though the LSE is still somewhat focused on their goals because they have demonstrative , but the LIE is different in the way they become so single-mindedly focused on their goals and in some situations become so absorbed in their relationships that they lose sight of what they truly want out of life to satisfy them.

    Gamma NTs consciously reject the idea of positive emotionality and normative traditions that are created out of jocularity and propriety, without any factual evidence to support their reasoning for following through and joining the group atmosphere. Gamma NTs (more so ILIs than LIEs) tend to be very skeptical spreading joy and cheer without doing solving problems pragmatically or impacting realistic change in the environment. The ILI in this case, may question the person’s angle towards having a demeanor that is “all talk and no action”, seeing little reasoning in doing something they are not obsessively interested in or obligated to do. Gamma NTs tend to find it very irritating when emotions are being passionately and authentically expressed, when the quality of the information is not mentioned or even ignored entirely.

    LIEs in fiction that are often encountered in movies or TV shows, they are commonly portrayed as some variant of a greedy capitalist character that has no idea how to connect with people in interpersonal relationships nor truly understand what they want with life. Other than having a successful business or something like this and only good at dealing with people in order to make lots of money. Sometimes when this LIE character has a love interest, they expect the love interest to be there for them and don't care very much about them any more than that. Broadly speaking, I think this is a reasonable caricature of the LIE to say that they don't often understand what they personally want. Even some famous LIEs in real life that are very successful business people that have little to no personal lives whatsoever, almost a self-sacrificing workaholic in a much more literal sense of the term, then again, not all LIEs are like this.

    When LIEs encounter problems in the world, the functional importance of which they respect, that they are insensitive to the idea of productively working with their hands to deal with the resources they have available. The LIE is a type that commonly prefers, in principle, to be greedy capitalists that make lots of money; though not always. A better example would be for the LIE to hire and manage people who work for them, employees to deal with the mundane problems of their work for them, rather than have to figure out how to deal with it on their own. This is not overly stereotyped, but then again limited to a certain degree. LIEs tend to thrive and perform well as a CEO or economically prosperous entrepreneur that actively works from one job to the next and working to reap their own individual rewards or prestige; appearing powerful but not having impatient and demanding leadership style or the base type.
    Last edited by Avalonia; 01-06-2016 at 03:31 AM.

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    Interesting analysis, the POV from the other side of the spectrum is always a bit unsettling. This is probably why I strongly prefer the Straty descriptions (type & quadra) compared to the others.

    I would generally agree that Gamma types are strongly self-motivated and (especially in the case of the introverts) quite guarded about that fact. It typically draws accusations of all kinds from other quadras, most often alphas, that Gammas are insensitive. I would argue that all beings should be self-motivated toward their own success and honestly don't feel pity for those that allow themselves to be disregarded at the bottom. I am rather conservative personally and believe that the success of an individual is most often always in their own hands (their ability to adapt, overcome, and face down challenges on their own). Other Gammas I know would agree with this.

    Straty wrote that Gammas key element in life is their ability to do their own work freely and not have their creative (and often entrepreneurial) initiatives extinguished by less ambitious people. She also wrote that a Gammas sense of purpose and necessity (having a job and being useful) is key to our self-esteem. I would agree wholeheartedly and believe this is why Gammas, as you state, "tend to have a greater entrepreneurial spirit compared to other types." In other words, we believe success is up to us, just don't get in our way.

    On the point about emotional considerations, I would agree that Gammas tend to evaluate the source of information much more thoroughly than the information itself (this is situation specific of course). I know as a Gamma that there are people I trust implicitly, not many of course, but those that I do are given quite a bit of freedom. Those people get that trust because they usually will not speak on topics they are not experts in, and are aware of the impact of a lie or false information to their credibility. Gammas use information to get things done (Te), otherwise they generally have no interest. This means that people who speak without useful concrete information (often alphas, see Straty's article on alpha and their right to offer opinion) are seen as untrustworthy sources and are not typically valued.

    "The ILI in this case, may question the person’s angle towards having a demeanor that is “all talk and no action”, seeing little reasoning in doing something they are not obsessively interested in or obligated to do." -This is absolutely spot on.

    "Gamma NTs tend to find it very irritating when emotions are being passionately and authentically expressed, when the quality of the information is not mentioned or even ignored entirely." -The word "authentically" is a sticking point for me here. This may be due to Fi activating(Fe PoLR) but I don't think words impart authenticity, that is where action comes in. Otherwise I agree with this statement.

    All the LIE's I know are quite funny when it comes to navigating human relations. I can't figure out who is worse between LIE & ILI but you m
    ay be right here. My LIE friends are all horrible at evaluating Fi bonds. They honestly don't know how people are disposed to them, or what those bonds mean. This has resulted in one I know that thinks everyone is a friend, and another that thinks that he doesn't really have any friends. Both are rogue warriors basically, both have three jobs, look a bit ragtag most of the time, and almost always doing activities that don't really require other people. They can talk for hours if you get them going though.

    That's what comes off the top of my head, curious to see what you add in the future.


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    This is a very good summation of many of the characteristics of the Gamma Quadra.

    I only take issue with two points, both regarding LIE's.

    One, most LIE's are represented in popular culture, not as greedy capitalists, although those do exist, but rather as slightly amoral individuals who lack empathy and make their own rules, but who nevertheless can see ahead and can make things happen. Criminal sociopaths, in other words.

    Two, I completely disagree that LIE's are unwilling to get their hands dirty. I believe this is a misreading of the literature on the subject; confusing us with some Aristocratic types. All of the LIE's I personally know are ready to get up close and dirty with tasks, usually because it allows them to better understand and master the process, often to the point where they become very, very good at performing it. However, LIE's are also optimists and tend to take on more work than they can personally do, and they also value efficiency. Thus, when they have undertaken some task that turns out to be more work than can be done in the allotted time, they will easily hire someone, usually without quibbling about their pay rate (as long as they are profitable), and will happily turn the work over to them (and, once they prove to be competent, are left to do things their own way, whatever works), while the LIE concentrates on the part of the task that can't be hired out. This part, usually, is the job of selling the vision to a customer and, equally importantly, to the guys hired to do their particular jobs.

    I, personally, have found that most people can't even sell themselves, much less something which has never been seen or done before, so this job usually falls to the LIE. It is not necessarily that the LIE wants to be CEO (at first, anyway. After seeing his vision screwed up a few times, that changes), but rather it is that no one else seems to be willing to step up and do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is a very good summation of many of the characteristics of the Gamma Quadra.

    I only take issue with two points, both regarding LIE's.

    One, most LIE's are represented in popular culture, not as greedy capitalists, although those do exist, but rather as slightly amoral individuals who lack empathy and make their own rules, but who nevertheless can see ahead and can make things happen. Criminal sociopaths, in other words.

    Two, I completely disagree that LIE's are unwilling to get their hands dirty. I believe this is a misreading of the literature on the subject; confusing us with some Aristocratic types. All of the LIE's I personally know are ready to get up close and dirty with tasks, usually because it allows them to better understand and master the process, often to the point where they become very, very good at performing it. However, LIE's are also optimists and tend to take on more work than they can personally do, and they also value efficiency. Thus, when they have undertaken some task that turns out to be more work than can be done in the allotted time, they will easily hire someone, usually without quibbling about their pay rate (as long as they are profitable), and will happily turn the work over to them (and, once they prove to be competent, are left to do things their own way, whatever works), while the LIE concentrates on the part of the task that can't be hired out. This part, usually, is the job of selling the vision to a customer and, equally importantly, to the guys hired to do their particular jobs.

    I, personally, have found that most people can't even sell themselves, much less something which has never been seen or done before, so this job usually falls to the LIE. It is not necessarily that the LIE wants to be CEO (at first, anyway. After seeing his vision screwed up a few times, that changes), but rather it is that no one else seems to be willing to step up and do it.
    Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and thank you for the response!

    Whenever I bring up a fictional example or representation of a certain type, I'm not backing up my words on this with 100% certainty. Thus, I don't believe it would be a good idea to constantly refer to the part of my article that refers to LIEs in popular culture; I might even shorten the paragraphs down to mention more important information about the quadra in question. Though, this is to be expected when analysizing fictional examples, I was taking a bit of a risk when mentioning that.

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    I thought it was a good read but I'd like to see more about how the Super-Id functions manifest themselves in the Gammas e.g. how Se+Fi functions in the ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    I thought it was a good read but I'd like to see more about how the Super-Id functions manifest themselves in the Gammas e.g. how Se+Fi functions in the ILI.
    I can try to explain from my own personal experience. First off, when they say is motivating they aren't kidding. We don't express it very well externally, but internally we're very emotional. What we lack in outward emotional expression we make up for in our sincerity. We don't get close to many people (as most of them are dumb and thus not worth our time), but to those that we accept as family, friend or lover, well, we'll kill for those people. You fuck with them, you fuck with us, and we respond harshly to such things. Do not push that button, just... don't.

    In regards to it's more of a lament over how people can't see what's happening in the world and, what's even worse, won't do anything about it. So many people, they just sit there, staring at the train about to obliterate them and they aren't even thinking about dodging. It's sort of ironic as, well, we're pretty much doing the same thing as we aren't exactly inclined to tackle them out of the way. being dominant and essentially the "opposite" of we'd rather observe and see if they'll do anything either without us acting or seeing what they'll do if we whisper in their ear over doing something physically or otherwise attracting attention to ourselves. We like people who actually do something for a change, who take charge of their own fate rather than resign themselves to it. This is why types are drawn towards those with dominant and creative . Say what you will, they're at least trying to do something with their life. We respect that and would like to see more of it in our lives, which explains why it's so suggestive for us.
    Last edited by End; 01-26-2016 at 04:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I can try to explain from my own personal experience. First off, when they say is motivating they aren't kidding. We don't express it very well externally, but internally we're very emotional. What we lack in outward emotional expression we make up for in our sincerity. We don't get close to many people (as most of them are dumb and thus not worth our time), but to those that we accept as family, friend or lover, well, we'll kill for those people. You fuck with them, you fuck with us, and we respond harshly to such things. Do not push that button, just... don't.
    I see. I can relate to a bit of this but I tend to not engage people because I believe they are probably corrupt/evil despite putting on a nice face. To me, a jerk is a jerk, he/she didn't become like that overnight, they were always that way and were either deliberately hiding it or just not aware of it and acted a different way. I suppose this is the difference between the SF and NT types of the Gammas.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    In regards to it's more of a lament over how people can't see what's happening in the world and, what's even worse, won't do anything about it. So many people, they just sit there, staring at the train about to obliterate them and they aren't even thinking about dodging. It's sort of ironic as, well, we're pretty much doing the same thing as we aren't exactly inclined to tackle them out of the way. being dominant and essentially the "opposite" of we'd rather observe and see if they'll do anything either without us acting or seeing what they'll do if we whisper in their ear over doing something physically or otherwise attracting attention to ourselves. We like people who actually do something for a change, who take charge of their own fate rather than resign themselves to it. This is why types are drawn towards those with dominant and creative . Say what you will, they're at least trying to do something with their life. We respect that and would like to see more of it in our lives, which explains why it's so suggestive for us.
    Ah I see now, so the ILI is more the type to naturally resign themselves to fate/the will of God without much of a struggle? I'm starting to get the victim nature of this type a lot more now; I wouldn't be able to do something like that without becoming angry, spiteful and resistant or just outright depressed and neurotic if it's something totally unavoidable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    I see. I can relate to a bit of this but I tend to not engage people because I believe they are probably corrupt/evil despite putting on a nice face. To me, a jerk is a jerk, he/she didn't become like that overnight, they were always that way and were either deliberately hiding it or just not aware of it and acted a different way. I suppose this is the difference between the SF and NT types of the Gammas.
    To me it's a matter of their general level of "jerkiness" and whether or not it's within acceptable levels. The world is fucked up, everyone has issues, but some are just, well, stupid. Those people I actively avoid, I simply cannot suffer fools lightly. The smarter they are the more I'll take, but their Jerk-To-Brains ratio had better favor the brains side of this equation. The more heavily the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    Ah I see now, so the ILI is more the type to naturally resign themselves to fate/the will of God without much of a struggle? I'm starting to get the victim nature of this type a lot more now; I wouldn't be able to do something like that without becoming angry, spiteful and resistant or just outright depressed and neurotic if it's something totally unavoidable.
    Well Gulenko did point out that Dialectical-Algorithmic thinkers are the most likely to develop a "religious" mindset and that many scholars who possess it adopt a faith at some point .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    To me it's a matter of their general level of "jerkiness" and whether or not it's within acceptable levels. The world is fucked up, everyone has issues, but some are just, well, stupid. Those people I actively avoid, I simply cannot suffer fools lightly. The smarter they are the more I'll take, but their Jerk-To-Brains ratio had better favor the brains side of this equation. The more heavily the better.



    Well Gulenko did point out that Dialectical-Algorithmic thinkers are the most likely to develop a "religious" mindset and that many scholars who possess it adopt a faith at some point .
    Speaking of Gulenko, how do you experience being a pseudo-aggressor? I've only had knowledge of this romantic style from non-Gamma types and would be interested to read a first-hand insight into it, especially since I was typed as one not too long ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    Speaking of Gulenko, how do you experience being a pseudo-aggressor? I've only had knowledge of this romantic style from non-Gamma types and would be interested to read a first-hand insight into it, especially since I was typed as one not too long ago
    Well an ESI is the least "aggressive" aggressor so that you'd find resonance with it isn't all that surprising. It's really all about the and how we're seeking someone who seems to do an end-run around a dark vision we have about the relationship (as victims, we think that them liking us as much as we like them is not likely yet if it is we say OH THANK GOD or we think it's being too good to be true and bail). Let's face facts people, women want masculine men, and men want feminine women. Subconsciously mind you, the notion is reinforced by pretty much every majorly successful society and relationship since forever. We get it (especially if we're male), there's an expectation we are to fulfill and we'll do it. The man must make the first move? Fine, we'll make it. Kinda really wish we didn't have to ( doesn't care as much about such things which is again why we like them so much) but we'll do it.

    However, it's only a ploy. We shoot first, so to speak, to view the reaction. We miss intentionally. We subtly fire a shot in your general direction. The hope is a provocation, to get you to ask a hard question that, for any non-aggressor type, would be unthinkable. We're trying to get you to ask us if we'd like you as a lover. The answer we'll give you (of course) is an emphatic yes if we sense the is strong within you. Of course we do, why the hell would we even try to provoke you if we didn't? It'd be so much easier if the girls were more assertive in their interests instead of playing these subtle mind games that society teaches them to play but it is what it is and we accept it.

    sees these things. We get deviance mitigation and are a little miffed about it. Yeah, I like imperious women. Yeah, that means they overtly fill a "masculine" role in the relationship and fuck you I like her telling me what to do 9 times out of 10. She's challenging me, telling me to essentially compensate for her weaknesses and I don't mind it. She has a noble goal, but does not grasp how to best achieve it. This is why the SF is drawn to the NT in the Gamma quadra and vice-versa. The SF has a goal, yet hasn't the vision to achieve it most efficiently and effectively. The NT has the game plan that will bring about their visions, yet hasn't the overt physical force/seductive power needed to motivate masses to achieve it like the SF does. Thus we're psuedo-aggressors. We fire a shot off your bow only to see if you can give as good we hope you can get. Best us to bed us and earn our most sincere devotion, only the most worthy of conquers can enlist our most formidable services. According to socionics, that means they're either a dual or an activator. Yeah, I can settle for that.

    It really is like one researcher said it was. Male Victims seek to serve a worthy princess as her knight. That's a big thing for a princess, for the hierarchy of knights goes all the way up to heaven. He represented an incarnation of her faith and virtue. As the times were already against her, she had to make doubly sure her knights were as "knightly" as possible. After all, if you really think about how a knight in steel armor looks in comparison to a filthy, grime encrusted peasant well... it really is kind of like an angel descending from heaven .
    Last edited by End; 01-29-2016 at 07:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Well an ESI is the least "aggressive" aggressor so that you'd find resonance with it isn't all that surprising. It's really all about the and how we're seeking someone who seems to do an end-run around a dark vision we have about the relationship (as victims, we think that them liking us as much as we like them is not likely yet if it is we say OH THANK GOD or we think it's being too good to be true and bail). Let's face facts people, women want masculine men, and men want feminine women. Subconsciously mind you, the notion is reinforced by pretty much every majorly successful society and relationship since forever. We get it (especially if we're male), there's an expectation we are to fulfill and we'll do it. The man must make the first move? Fine, we'll make it. Kinda really wish we didn't have to ( doesn't care as much about such things which is again why we like them so much) but we'll do it.
    Yeah, I see a lot of differences between us. I don't really get the mindset of something being so good that I should bail, but then again I'd never get married or enter a serious relationship lol. I personally would not like it if my romantic interest initially came on to me at all because I almost feel like I haven't earned it. What I tend to do is just wait for a solid sign of interest and then pounce if I'm really into her and the situation isn't too awkward. Most of the time I just let it go because I can't think of a genuine good opener

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    However, it's only a ploy. We shoot first, so to speak, to view the reaction. We miss intentionally. We subtly fire a shot in your general direction. The hope is a provocation, to get you to ask a hard question that, for any non-aggressor type, would be unthinkable. We're trying to get you to ask us if we'd like you as a lover. The answer we'll give you (of course) is an emphatic yes if we sense the is strong within you. Of course we do, why the hell would we even try to provoke you if we didn't? It'd be so much easier if the girls were more assertive in their interests instead of playing these subtle mind games that society teaches them to play but it is what it is and we accept it.
    Yeah, I like it when my romantic interests to this. I don't like approaching romantic interests that give off absolutely no signs of interest, but then I find that I normally fall short in my approach when I come on a bit too hard and they back away. I think they mistake me for a victim and don't expect me to be so forceful.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    sees these things. We get deviance mitigation and are a little miffed about it. Yeah, I like imperious women. Yeah, that means they overtly fill a "masculine" role in the relationship and fuck you I like her telling me what to do 9 times out of 10. She's challenging me, telling me to essentially compensate for her weaknesses and I don't mind it. She has a noble goal, but does not grasp how to best achieve it. This is why the SF is drawn to the NT in the Gamma quadra and vice-versa. The SF has a goal, yet hasn't the vision to achieve it most efficiently and effectively. The NT has the game plan that will bring about their visions, yet hasn't the overt physical force/seductive power needed to motivate masses to achieve it like the SF does. Thus we're psuedo-aggressors. We fire a shot off your bow only to see if you can give as good we hope you can get. Best us to bed us and earn our most sincere devotion, only the most worthy of conquers can enlist our most formidable services. According to socionics, that means they're either a dual or an activator. Yeah, I can settle for that.

    It really is like one researcher said it was. Male Victims seek to serve a worthy princess as her knight. That's a big thing for a princess, for the hierarchy of knights goes all the way up to heaven. He represented an incarnation of her faith and virtue. As the times were already against her, she had to make doubly sure her knights were as "knightly" as possible. After all, if you really think about how a knight in steel armor looks in comparison to a filthy, grime encrusted peasant well... it really is kind of like an angel descending from heaven .
    I see...I've noticed how the SEE-ILI relationship seems to be centred around the word "submission" while the ESI-ILE seems to be more about "loyalty", would you say that's correct? I tend to be good at telling other people what to do in order to achieve their goals, yet also become unable to achieve mine at times.

    Also, about Se+Fi in ILIs, is the Se strictly valued but weak or is it capable of manifesting itself? For example, a friend of mine was really unhappy about a milkshake he bought because it was mixed with another flavor. I told him he should go get a new one and he said it was fine and that he simply won't drink it even though I knew he wanted to drink one. Eventually, I convinced him that we should ask for a replacement and when we got to the till the cashier was making up excuses. My reaction to this was to step a bit closer to the cashier and tell him "My friend ordered a vanilla milkshake NOT a chocolate one. Give him what he ordered.", to which the cashier proceeded to do. From what I've read I think of this as Se-ego type behavior, but is this something that you as an ILI could potentially do, though not comfortably?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    Yeah, I like it when my romantic interests to this. I don't like approaching romantic interests that give off absolutely no signs of interest, but then I find that I normally fall short in my approach when I come on a bit too hard and they back away. I think they mistake me for a victim and don't expect me to be so forceful.
    Interesting, fits the theory. It makes sense that an aggressor wants a sort of "green light" to start doing their thing from a romantic interest. After all, nobody likes rejection .

    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    I see...I've noticed how the SEE-ILI relationship seems to be centred around the word "submission" while the ESI-ILE seems to be more about "loyalty", would you say that's correct? I tend to be good at telling other people what to do in order to achieve their goals, yet also become unable to achieve mine at times.
    I think you mean ESI-LIE relationships but yeah, that's about right. LIE is a bit harder to manage though, being an extrovert and all. Plus, as the stereotypical corporate CEO, if he occupies that position he'll face the "gold digging whore" problem that the comedian Bill Burr talks about. I guess that's what the ESI's job is in that situation, keep that LIE from succumbing to his base instincts with a heaping helping of their dominant .

    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    Also, about Se+Fi in ILIs, is the Se strictly valued but weak or is it capable of manifesting itself? For example, a friend of mine was really unhappy about a milkshake he bought because it was mixed with another flavor. I told him he should go get a new one and he said it was fine and that he simply won't drink it even though I knew he wanted to drink one. Eventually, I convinced him that we should ask for a replacement and when we got to the till the cashier was making up excuses. My reaction to this was to step a bit closer to the cashier and tell him "My friend ordered a vanilla milkshake NOT a chocolate one. Give him what he ordered.", to which the cashier proceeded to do. From what I've read I think of this as Se-ego type behavior, but is this something that you as an ILI could potentially do, though not comfortably?
    One can manifest the behaviors of their dual, though it is not the preferred method of operation. I've told waiters and such that they've fucked up my order and such, though I did so as nicely as possible (introvert here, don't want the whole room looking at me). I could get confrontational like that, but not if the room was full of people and I had a line behind me. I'd be more likely to note that that particular restaurant was staffed by incompetents and just never eat there again. I guess that's why people seek their duals. They "could" fill that role, but prefer that someone else do it instead. If that someone else is also your romantic interest then all the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Interesting, fits the theory. It makes sense that an aggressor wants a sort of "green light" to start doing their thing from a romantic interest. After all, nobody likes rejection .
    Yeah, but I wonder how far this theory goes? I still think basic instinct will kick in at some point and the male will approach the female regardless of their type.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I think you mean ESI-LIE relationships but yeah, that's about right. LIE is a bit harder to manage though, being an extrovert and all. Plus, as the stereotypical corporate CEO, if he occupies that position he'll face the "gold digging whore" problem that the comedian Bill Burr talks about. I guess that's what the ESI's job is in that situation, keep that LIE from succumbing to his base instincts with a heaping helping of their dominant .
    Yep I meant LIE


    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    One can manifest the behaviors of their dual, though it is not the preferred method of operation. I've told waiters and such that they've fucked up my order and such, though I did so as nicely as possible (introvert here, don't want the whole room looking at me). I could get confrontational like that, but not if the room was full of people and I had a line behind me. I'd be more likely to note that that particular restaurant was staffed by incompetents and just never eat there again. I guess that's why people seek their duals. They "could" fill that role, but prefer that someone else do it instead. If that someone else is also your romantic interest then all the better.
    I see. I also wouldn't want the whole place looking at me but I think I'd be faster to get into a confrontation.

    Anyway I ask this because I'm fairly sure I am ESI though others here have typed me ILI

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