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Thread: Beta Quadra Analysis

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    Default Beta Quadra Analysis

    (This post is currently a rough draft and includes my perspective of the Beta quadra, hopefully being as consistent with Classic socionics as possible, paragraphs may have mild disorganization, but will be renovated to better fit the more accurate descriptions of the Beta Quadra)

    The Beta Quadra values the IM elements , , and . While the subdued IM elements of the Beta quadra are , , and . Within the Beta quadra, you have the SLE, IEI, EIE and LSI types.

    The Beta quadra can most easily be described as the most passionate, revolutionary and dynamic quadra, in comparison to the other three quadras. Beta quadra types have the greatest range of external emotional expression, it is by nature, what it means to be a Beta type tends to be quite varied. Particularly in the case of life experiences, whether or not they have memories that hold emotional meaning or significance, people go through different stages in life and have different perspectives in life. As a result, Beta types with greater life experience may withhold relevance, what stage you are in life, that strong awareness of where your life is going and the overall meaning of that; which is ultimately greater and arguably more emotionally powerful than other quadras.

    The Beta NFs are characterized by their rapidly changing emotional states and broad emotional ranges, also being rather perceptive towards long term visions of how the world should be. Beta NFs can often come across as cause-oriented or philanthropic, though is fundamentally character by high emotional energy-levels. (Which can often appear more prominently in the EIE than the IEI, though the IEI can sometimes appear like an extroverted ethics type, having generally higher levels of emotional energy but still quite resembling introverted irrational temperament) Beta NF types also pay a much greater attention towards emotional displays that they perceive as “real” and from the heart; giving them the appearance of being dramatic, sometimes overly so. Beta NFs feel the most comfortable in environments in which they can freely express themselves, unfiltered their sometimes dynamic and vulgar emotional states openly, not being remotely judged based on how they inherently feel in one moment in time.

    The Beta STs are characterized by their unambiguous generation of concrete structures and rules, also being able to recognize the levels of willpower and motivation in others. Beta STs can often come across as enforcing and confrontational, though fundamentally recognized as ambitious producers of logical structures to further derive benefit from the systems they create. (Often appearing more prominently in the LSI than the SLE, though the SLE can be quite intellectually minded in this area, generally being quite rigid and inflexible in the concrete rules they create, though are more impulsive and still resemble the archetype of the extroverted irrational temperament) Beta STs pay a much greater attention towards what ideology or way of interpreting the world is “correct”; giving them the appearance of lacking personal sensitivity or uncertain ambiguity. Beta STs are augmented towards ideological conflict, focusing on the more forceful implementation and achieving their goals through the tactical willpower (similar to SLE’s use of ) or strategic conciseness (similar to LSI’s use of ) to get what they want from the world.

    An important concept to digest about Beta types is the inherent awareness of positive and negative emotionality. It would not be incorrect to imagine Beta types that actively express light and dark emotionality, some Betas having a stronger preference towards expressing positive emotionality and other Betas being more prone to expressing negative emotionality. Beta types are strongly attentive to the signals and messages that others are sending off in an exterior emotional space, and are able to detect fluctuations in these signals at a rapid timescale. (Most exclusively Beta NF types) Despite the external differences between these Beta communities that share differences in the way they express their emotions; a common theme within both groups is the emotional strength of their messages and seeking to produce meaningful emotions. The emotional atmosphere that is produced by all Beta types can be both light and dark; though primarily dark.

    Beta types are deeply spiritual individuals by nature and are drawn to metaphysical interpretations of reality. They will often have a high awareness of the deeper meanings of the messages that can appear more straightforward to types of different quadras. Questions that seek to explore internal humanitarian values; “Where are we going?” “What is our origin?” “Why is humanity so cruel?” and other generalized questions that are asked rhetorically. Valuing introverted logic, the Beta type’s quests for finding a deeper meaning in the world around them, manifests in impulsiveness towards finding consistency and clarity in interpreting the messages of the world. Striving for a coherent worldview that not only internally makes sense, but also does not contain any place for contradictions or ambiguity. For Beta types in general, they will emphasize the need for a system or ideology to interpret this information using concrete, logical principles. The dislike of ambiguity and the desire to limit possibilities in Beta types is the result of valued introverted intuition and subdued extroverted intuition.

    Beta types are inclined to evaluate people based on the sensibility and concordance of their ideological principles, rather than on their individual character; as a result of valued introverted logic and subdued introverted ethics. The Beta quadra also shares the values of extroverted sensing and introverted intuition with the Gamma quadra, but there are many differences between these quadras in general. Beta types' visionary qualities and principled worldviews are intertwined together, and they have a somewhat narrow focus in where the principles adapt to vision over time. The Beta types live by group-oriented principles, instead of seeking/avoiding specific individuals like in the Gamma quadra, Beta types will often have an approach of ignoring the evaluation of individual character and have a keen awareness of what groups are “beneficial” or “toxic” to them. Beta types have an overall collectivistic mentality and can hone in on opposing groups with an “us-vs-them” mindset. Interestingly enough, because of the quadra values of introverted logic (constructing a framework of information) and introverted intuition, (limiting possibilities) the principles of Beta types have the capacity to change very rapidly if the ideology and vision are incompatible.

    A common theme within the Beta quadra is ideological conflict, this means that Betas have a tendency to subscribe to only one particular set of rules to describe the world in a way that makes the most sense to the individual. Occasionally, when their ideology that they personally follow rapidly changes, the individual can go from seeing the world one way to suddenly seeing the world in a different way. This can overall result in the individual occupying a very different place in society, which this can appear to be a very abrupt and baffling transition to the outside world. Now, this may or may not always be an abrupt transition internally, but rather a shift in rules within the ideology and not in the overall values of the structure.

    It’s debatable to say that all Beta types in general take their ideologies very seriously, some Beta types can take their ideologies very seriously and this can even be true for some Alpha types. Although, the idea of structure and pedagogical clarity in how the world works/operates; even if this does not have a satisfactory answer, tends to be very interesting for Beta types. The way that introverted logic and extroverted sensing is metabolized, is that there exists coherent rules to be followed and if these rules are not followed, there will be consequences. More extreme forms of this Beta “code of conduct” can be present in the Mafia, authoritarian government and military organizations. The structure of these organizations has to do with rules and applying these rules using forceful implementation rather than abstract implementation.
    It is a common theme for Beta types to have social hierarchies and organizations that operate in this way, in which there is a very clear set of rules that has to do with a hierarchy. Though a more prominent theme in the Beta quadra is authenticity, which is particularly important in the IEI (demonstrative introverted ethics), as a result of valuing ideological conflict as well as passionate emotionality. Beta types value the intensity in the external expression of their internal emotional states, they specifically view themselves (more so Beta NF types than Beta ST types) as somewhat volatile, dynamic and easily emotionally interchangeable. Beta types can jump from one emotional state to the next and have many emotions that are rapidly changeable and as a result; lack a sense of self and as a consequence view others as justice, just as emotionally malleable as they are. It should be noted from the previous statement that Beta extroverts (EIE and SLE) can express their external emotions with force by pushing the extroverted values of their quadra, while this may be slightly less prominent in the Beta introvert types (IEI and LSI) where they may initially appear reserved to others, but once emotionally “ignited”, can unleash a much more emotionally powerful part of their personality that they might not have explored before.

    Most commonly, the lack of a stable sense of self can be much more of an impending issue for the EIE, still being a somewhat accessible area for the IEI and SLE; though is much more of a poignant problem that the EIE comes across. A reason for this conclusion might be the EIE’s desire to express oneself in the moment and avoid the boring, mundane qualities of reality by making them more exciting for them to experience. The EIE has the broadest emotional range, though the emotional states experienced by the IEI, by contrast is slightly more difficult to explain. Mercurial is a word that I would likely use to describe IEIs, “moody” to a somewhat lesser extent. The lack of stability is often something expressed externally, in EIEs that have such little grounding, that this weakness eventually becomes obvious to them. In IEIs however, the lack of stability is more subtle, there’s much more grounding partly because of demonstrative introverted ethics. IEIs are more grounded in the way that they appear and also in some sense they recognize that there is not much stability in the way that they act. Therefore, the authentic expression of what IEIs are becomes very important to them, they view most interactions within the world around them as superficial and dynamically changing. Thus, the IEI will often so retain an idea of what a stable reaction is and they feel that it personally matters to them to have authentic interactions with other people.

    If you imagine the Beta quadra types emphasizing authentic interactions with other people, they are all being expressed in slightly different ways. Though the IEI emphasizes the close relationships between people and believes that it is a pressing issue, concerned about the quality of the messages they send to others. As a result, IEIs tend to pay little attention to social hierarchies from a personal standpoint, in the way that other people around them are interacting with each other. Instead, they’re often oriented towards the hierarchies created by the world around them as something irrelevant; something that has nothing to do with their intrapersonal interactions with people close to them. All Beta types share this quality to some extent, SLEs probably least so, but that dynamic of being in a social hierarchy is not always a conscious issue for these types. For instance, the SLE will often take upon themselves the role of a leader and asserting themselves to command others in the physical environment, but this concept does not enforce the idea of a hierarchy at all. If anything, the SLE will be much more focused on getting what they want, how SLEs interact with situations with militia in order to reach a common goal, rather than enforce a social hierarchy. (The SLE and SEE have similarities in leadership styles, though the SEE will often be more comfortable with knowing who to personally accept or reject and the SLE will often bring everyone together despite the individual differences and conflicts between people)

    Actually, the misconception that the SLE collects people to help them is generalized, if anything the SEE is more likely to select individuals that they trust to help them and are quite attentive to these individuals. While the SLE may not entirely be attentive to individuals and prefers to collect others in a rather indirect way. Almost in a sense that the SLE views people as “objects” that they use in an emotionally sterile manner.
    Last edited by Avalonia; 01-05-2016 at 10:46 PM.

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    In your description above, you mention that: "The emotional atmosphere that is produced by all Beta types can be both light and dark; though primarily dark."

    I'm not sure I agree with this. I think beta overall, tends to display more emotional intensity than the other quadras. This intensity can be both light and dark. Beta is less afraid than say alpha to express dark or negative emotionality but that doesn't mean they are primarily dark.
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    The Beta NFs are characterized by their rapidly changing emotional states and broad emotional ranges, also being rather perceptive towards long term visions of how the world should be. Beta NFs can often come across as cause-oriented or philanthropic, though is fundamentally character by high emotional energy-levels. (Which can often appear more prominently in the EIE than the IEI, though the IEI can sometimes appear like an extroverted ethics type, having generally higher levels of emotional energy but still quite resembling introverted irrational temperament) Beta NF types also pay a much greater attention towards emotional displays that they perceive as “real” and from the heart; giving them the appearance of being dramatic, sometimes overly so. Beta NFs feel the most comfortable in environments in which they can freely express themselves, unfiltered their sometimes dynamic and vulgar emotional states openly, not being remotely judged based on how they inherently feel in one moment in time.
    That's SEI.

    The Beta STs are characterized by their unambiguous generation of concrete structures and rules, also being able to recognize the levels of willpower and motivation in others. Beta STs can often come across as enforcing and confrontational, though fundamentally recognized as ambitious producers of logical structures to further derive benefit from the systems they create. (Often appearing more prominently in the LSI than the SLE, though the SLE can be quite intellectually minded in this area, generally being quite rigid and inflexible in the concrete rules they create, though are more impulsive and still resemble the archetype of the extroverted irrational temperament) Beta STs pay a much greater attention towards what ideology or way of interpreting the world is “correct”; giving them the appearance of lacking personal sensitivity or uncertain ambiguity. Beta STs are augmented towards ideological conflict, focusing on the more forceful implementation and achieving their goals through the tactical willpower (similar to SLE’s use of ) or strategic conciseness (similar to LSI’s use of ) to get what they want from the world.
    Bolded the Alpha NT stuff. there's probably more but i'll leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    That's SEI.



    Bolded the Alpha NT stuff. there's probably more but i'll leave it at that.
    You are possibly a misguided EIE male, or not beta at all.

    This article isn't Megane's original thoughts, it is a proper socionics article originally in Russian. Creating your own ideas for what elemental quadra values should be sounds like a Ni-creative, Ti-valuing thing to do.

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    I believe it is a valid assumption to say that the Beta quadra (compared to the other quadras) is the most prone to expressing darker themes of emotionality. The predominating theme of the Beta quadra is to externally express meaningful emotions to convey how the individual personally feels and finding a group that you identify with.

    The only other quadra that is inclined to express their feelings externally is the Alpha quadra, and if anything Alphas are quite fearful and anxious of dark emotionality. Beta types can handle potentially volatile emotional states, as long as these emotional states carry enough meaning to motivate others to action and take care of the impending issue that is causing the emotional reaction.

    I wouldn't think it's unreasonable to assume that Beta types are more prone to expressing darker moods within themselves and find healthy outlets to express their emotions freely and without judgement from others. I would not also like to imagine that Beta quadra types ONLY express dark emotionality, in fact it can be quite the opposite where Beta types are so dynamically positive that it's almost unreal.

    In EIEs, their authetic expression of emotions can be somewhat more exaggerated and have theatrical effect, creating a mask r a persona to face the world differently than one would expect from them. These personas that the EIE creates can be exclusively created to find an outlet to express themselves positively or negatively in the way where things are kept interesting and never mundane or boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maithili View Post
    You are possibly a misguided EIE male, or not beta at all.

    This article isn't Megane's original thoughts, it is a proper socionics article originally in Russian. Creating your own ideas for what elemental quadra values should be sounds like a Ni-creative, Ti-valuing thing to do.
    Sorry, but that's not correct, I never translated a Russian description of the Beta quadra.

    I compiled the information that I have learned in total about that quadra along with my own additional thoughts to better convey the idea of what the Beta quadra is about.

    Even if this was a Russian description, you would probably be more aware of that than I would be, I would never exclusively translate a description to copy and paste that to here, I put a lot of effort into this.

    The Psyche-Yoga descriptions I translated, the stuff that I post about socionics are mentioned from the thoughts of socionists within English communities or from my perspective of what socionics is.

    (But I appreciate it that you wanted to defend my work like that, thank you )

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    "Beta types are inclined to evaluate people based on the sensibility and concordance of their ideological principles, rather than on their individual character"

    I don't understand the difference here.

    X evaluates people based on.... [X's] ideological prinicples rather than [Y's] character. Is what I assume this is saying. How can Y's character be assessed if not by measuring against the measurer's {X] principles?
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    "Beta types are inclined to evaluate people based on the sensibility and concordance of their ideological principles, rather than on their individual character"

    I don't understand the difference here.

    X evaluates people based on.... [X's] ideological prinicples rather than [Y's] character. Is what I assume this is saying. How can Y's character be assessed if not by measuring against the measurer's {X] principles?
    I suppose the point is that they are so-called ideological principles... some expression to denote Ti > Fi.

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    I thought authenticity was an introverted ethics thing (at least that's how it is in MBTI).
    Where does the need for authenticity and honesty in interpersonal relationships come from in beta's (specifically IEI) if their Fi is unconscious/unvalued?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilush View Post
    I thought authenticity was an introverted ethics thing (at least that's how it is in MBTI).
    Where does the need for authenticity and honesty in interpersonal relationships come from in beta's (specifically IEI) if their Fi is unconscious/unvalued?
    Surely the interest in honesty in relationships is not type related...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilush View Post
    I thought authenticity was an introverted ethics thing (at least that's how it is in MBTI).
    MBTI Fi != Socionics Fi.

    Where does the need for authenticity and honesty in interpersonal relationships come from in beta's (specifically IEI) if their Fi is unconscious/unvalued?
    I don't have much experience with betas, but I suppose it could come from the Fe+Se "intense emotions" that aren't necessarily made pleasant to avoid hurting another party's feelings. Betas would rather all emotions, including those with negative content, be directly expressed instead of avoiding unpleasant emotions like Fe+Si types. Betas would rather have a real conflict that "does something" than a "fake" atmosphere that ignores perceived "real" problems with people/anything for the sake of peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilush View Post
    I thought authenticity was an introverted ethics thing (at least that's how it is in MBTI).
    Where does the need for authenticity and honesty in interpersonal relationships come from in beta's (specifically IEI) if their Fi is unconscious/unvalued?
    Authenticity, as it relates to people themselves, pertains to all NFs. We want to be able to accept people for who they really are in order to help to improve them, either from an introvert or extrovert's standpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Surely the interest in honesty in relationships is not type related...
    see above
    Last edited by IBTL; 01-11-2016 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post

    I don't have much experience with betas, but I suppose it could come from the Fe+Se "intense emotions" that aren't necessarily made pleasant to avoid hurting another party's feelings. Betas would rather all emotions, including those with negative content, be directly expressed instead of avoiding unpleasant emotions like Fe+Si types. Betas would rather have a real conflict that "does something" than a "fake" atmosphere that ignores perceived "real" problems with people/anything for the sake of peace.
    Much of what you're saying is crude and unsophisticated or simply biased, however, Se is inherently overt, heavy-handed, brute and powerful and therefore won't lend itself to softening. It doesn't happen! Complaining about Fe+Se hurting another party's feelings is like complaining about lemons being sour once you factor in Se. ISFps have Si+Fe and are indeed coined "The Peacemaker" on www.Socionics.com under the types heading. I believe ISFps needlessly suffer, almost rendering themselves helpless or at least ineffective, because of their middleman-like dispositions. Why do they even bother if their efforts fall on deaf ears, go unappreciated and then get wasted? I guess all introverts are guilty of feeling helpless and wish their message in a bottle at least gets received, hopefully by the best recipient too, and therefore that's why I the internet and see it as the fastest track to send such messages.
    Last edited by IBTL; 01-11-2016 at 12:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
    see above
    Lol, I maintain it's not type related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Lol, I maintain it's not type related.
    I maintain that NFs are apathetic to relationships; their own personalities survive by deploying blackmail. SF is relationship-oriented.

    I could argue the need for dishonesty in relationships as well as for honesty.
    Last edited by IBTL; 01-11-2016 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
    Much of what you're saying is crude and unsophisticated or simply biased, however, Se is inherently overt, heavy-handed, brute and powerful and therefore won't lend itself to softening. It doesn't happen! Complaining about Fe+Se hurting another party's feelings is like complaining about lemons being sour once you factor in Se. ISFps have Si+Fe and are indeed coined "The Peacemaker" on www.Socionics.com under the types heading. I believe ISFps needlessly suffer, almost rendering themselves helpless or at least ineffective, because of their middleman-like dispositions. Why do they even bother if their efforts fall on deaf ears, go unappreciated and then get wasted? I guess all introverts are guilty of feeling helpless and wish their message in a bottle at least gets received, hopefully by the best recipient too, and therefore that's why I the internet and see it as the fastest track to send such messages.
    Not really sure of your point in posting this. Nowhere in my post do I criticize or complain about beta types, because, as you say, there is indeed no changing their nature.
    Se won't lend itself to softening.
    That's basically what I said. I was talking about the differences of how Fe is manifested in the Alpha quadra vs the Beta quadra.
    Much of what you're saying is crude and unsophisticated
    Well, ain't that somethin'! Also, unnecessarily rude.
    simply biased
    Well, you certainly aren't wrong. I am but a human, and I come from another planet quadra as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    Not really sure of your point in posting this. Nowhere in my post do I criticize or complain about beta types, because, as you say, there is indeed no changing their nature.

    That's basically what I said. I was talking about the differences of how Fe is manifested in the Alpha quadra vs the Beta quadra.

    Well, ain't that somethin'! Also, unnecessarily rude.

    Well, you certainly aren't wrong. I am but a human, and I come from another planet quadra as well.
    Welcome to beta home of the LSI penny pinching misers, the SLE bulldozers who wipe out habitats, the EIE bratty messiahs who will do anything to prevent their own suicide in order to avoid confronting any kind of other messiah, and the IEI airheads who will walk around with rose-tinted glasses on unable to cope with the devastation. I'm not being unnecessarily rude (more like out of necessity) because that would be a "fake" emotion, according to you and very much relationship-oriented. Censored Fe emotions are not tolerated by Ti+Se LSIs nor Se+Ti SLEs; those rascals are Ti schizoid and Se paranoid like you won't believe! I'm simply being a beta NF and true to my IEI program - FOR ONCE IN MY GOD DAMNED LIFE! I understand your grievances, though, as EIEs certainly can have a messiah complex (perhaps this is best understood as slightly reduced introverted intuition which they would need more of if they had any intention of easing their own blows) and difficulty seeing beyond their own extroverted, megalomaniac tendencies into humanity itself as it exists here on Earth. Do you need a hug too? Why are you trying to fix what is not broken about me? Would you like me to pick you apart? Maybe you're too weak as well and this would not be advisable as judging types are fantastic at picking others apart and wire mothering and a total failure as it relates to Dr. Harlow LIE's experiment with orphaned monkeys and their wire and cloth mothers. I swear, you and Myst are SEIs! (I've already been picked apart my entire life by my LII mother who is a personality type junkie and a Socionics enthusiast, for whatever value it has to our discussion as there is no allowance for pity or poor sportsmanship in my particular double aggressor quadra )
    In actuality, it makes since how this thread is loaded with alphas considering how quadras progress from alphas, betas, gammas and then to deltas through supervisory and beneficiary rings. The OP is alpha and you and Myst are alphas as well. I clearly see LII/SEI activation playing out true to form within this thread while the Lithuanian lady who developed Socionics was an ILE reformist and an alpha - the Soviet Union sucked anyway after Karl Marx ILE demolished slavery without preserving the individual's value, which is where your type comes in to do that kind of dirty work. Si is undoubtedly biased to its own mythological experiences. Blah blah blah ... I understand (as it is my hidden agenda "to understand" just like it is yours) why y'all are interested in Socionics and betas, but again, I'm a beta NF and not being unnecessarily rude since that isn't even how beta NFs operate. You even said so yourself! Geez, it's difficult communicating between DA algorithmic, black or white, deductive, negativistic cognition and VS circular, inductive, synthetic, positivistic cognition. No wonder DA cognition and VS cognition is not a basis for duality! We can hardly communicate ... I just had an epiphany ... *there went my IEI revelation light bulb* ... see if an ESE can communicate all of this to an LII, after the LII pisses off the ESE of course, and then to you SEIs and then get back with us! Lets play telephone! Lol Where is an LII and an ESE whenever you need one?! Haha... I am indeed the IEI sheriff breaking my head open and looking for her deputies since SLEs don't have a want to clean up their own dirty, destructive demolition work.


    Or you could just as easily take my word on a few things, because my INXx mastermind head is back on straight. My SLE boyfriend and his LSI dad had screwed it back into place, just like I knew they could as soon as I had a formulation of their types, until the unprecedented speed of our dualization and subsequent activation got the best of their mirror relationship! I felt like I had won the lottery as soon as my head fit back on straight. My SLE boyfriend is in jail now, though, and his dad is finally coughing up the funding to remodel his rundown bunker of a house. I think I'm supposed to repay the favor and get him out of jail, it's at least implied by them, but SLEs can be cheating, lying dogs and promiscuous players since their hidden agenda is "to be loved". So what's a girl to do? I'd just as soon let him rot and savor his aged but improved flavor later on in the relationship he had promised to me. (He would have killed himself or someone else on his particular path of disaster without our duality progressing past the initial phase of rapid dualization.)

    If it makes others feel better, FeSe and/or SeFe can also be understood as a proclamation.

    So where are you from, other than alpha quadra? I like to say "ain't" too but as a playful joke like Dr. Fried in the paperback book I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. (I'd underline the name of the book but mobile PCs like smartphones have extensive limitations.) It's an excellent book about personal perseverance for people with fried brains who have lost their sanity and freedom at some supposed great cost to the patient. The protagonist Debra is an IEI schizophrenic who simply has an inner world because she isn't coping otherwise, and Dr. Fried, the German psychiatrist who practiced in America after WWII, is an LSI. For what it's worth, IEEs will ease others, but it's by letting them down as the IEE takes over just like Hayley Williams sings in that Paramore song "Ain't It Fun".
    Last edited by IBTL; 01-12-2016 at 04:06 PM. Reason: I hope you at least got a good laugh out of this ridiculous circus known as life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
    Welcome to beta home of the LSI penny pinching misers, the SLE bulldozers who wipe out habitats, the EIE bratty messiahs who will do anything to prevent their own suicide in order to avoid confronting any kind of other messiah, and the IEI airheads who will walk around with rose-tinted glasses on unable to cope with the devastation. I'm not being unnecessarily rude (more like out of necessity) because that would be a "fake" emotion, according to you and very much relationship-oriented. Censored Fe emotions are not tolerated by Ti+Se LSIs nor Se+Ti SLEs; those rascals are Ti schizoid and Se paranoid like you won't believe! I'm simply being a beta NF and true to my IEI program - FOR ONCE IN MY GOD DAMNED LIFE! I understand your grievances, though, as EIEs certainly can have a messiah complex (perhaps this is best understood as slightly reduced introverted intuition which they would need more of if they had any intention of easing their own blows) and difficulty seeing beyond their own extroverted, megalomaniac tendencies into humanity itself as it exists here on Earth. Do you need a hug too? Why are you trying to fix what is not broken about me? Would you like me to pick you apart? Maybe you're too weak as well and this would not be advisable as judging types are fantastic at picking others apart and wire mothering and a total failure as it relates to Dr. Harlow LIE's experiment with orphaned monkeys and their wire and cloth mothers. I swear, you and Myst are SEIs! (I've already been picked apart my entire life by my LII mother who is a personality type junkie and a Socionics enthusiast, for whatever value it has to our discussion as there is no allowance for pity or poor sportsmanship in my particular double aggressor quadra )
    In actuality, it makes since how this thread is loaded with alphas considering how quadras progress from alphas, betas, gammas and then to deltas through supervisory and beneficiary rings. The OP is alpha and you and Myst are alphas as well. I clearly see LII/SEI activation playing out true to form within this thread while the Lithuanian lady who developed Socionics was an ILE reformist and an alpha - the Soviet Union sucked anyway after Karl Marx ILE demolished slavery without preserving the individual's value, which is where your type comes in to do that kind of dirty work. Si is undoubtedly biased to its own mythological experiences. Blah blah blah ... I understand (as it is my hidden agenda "to understand" just like it is yours) why y'all are interested in Socionics and betas, but again, I'm a beta NF and not being unnecessarily rude since that isn't even how beta NFs operate. You even said so yourself! Geez, it's difficult communicating between DA algorithmic, black or white, deductive, negativistic cognition and VS circular, inductive, synthetic, positivistic cognition. No wonder DA cognition and VS cognition is not a basis for duality! We can hardly communicate ... I just had an epiphany ... *there went my IEI revelation light bulb* ... see if an ESE can communicate all of this to an LII, after the LII pisses off the ESE of course, and then to you SEIs and then get back with us! Lets play telephone! Lol Where is an LII and an ESE whenever you need one?! Haha... I am indeed the IEI sheriff breaking my head open and looking for her deputies since SLEs don't have a want to clean up their own dirty, destructive demolition work.


    Or you could just as easily take my word on a few things, because my INXx mastermind head is back on straight. My SLE boyfriend and his LSI dad had screwed it back into place, just like I knew they could as soon as I had a formulation of their types, until the unprecedented speed of our dualization and subsequent activation got the best of their mirror relationship! I felt like I had won the lottery as soon as my head fit back on straight. My SLE boyfriend is in jail now, though, and his dad is finally coughing up the funding to remodel his rundown bunker of a house. I think I'm supposed to repay the favor and get him out of jail, it's at least implied by them, but SLEs can be cheating, lying dogs and promiscuous players since their hidden agenda is "to be loved". So what's a girl to do? I'd just as soon let him rot and savor his aged but improved flavor later on in the relationship he had promised to me. (He would have killed himself or someone else on his particular path of disaster without our duality progressing past the initial phase of rapid dualization.)

    If it makes others feel better, FeSe and/or SeFe can also be understood as a proclamation.

    So where are you from, other than alpha quadra? I like to say "ain't" too but as a playful joke like Dr. Fried in the paperback book I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. (I'd underline the name of the book but mobile PCs like smartphones have extensive limitations.) It's an excellent book about personal perseverance for people with fried brains who have lost their sanity and freedom at some supposed great cost to the patient. The protagonist Debra is an IEI schizophrenic who simply has an inner world because she isn't coping otherwise, and Dr. Fried, the German psychiatrist who practiced in America after WWII, is an LSI. For what it's worth, IEEs will ease others, but it's by letting them down as the IEE takes over just like Hayley Williams sings in that Paramore song "Ain't It Fun".
    I laughed. Not sure why. Thanks?

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    SEI is more desperate, flighty and splayed out in behavior than Beta NF. Beta Nf has more gravitas, so to speak, that the description completely misses. They are less distracted by the periphery. Their emotional compass is more locked into its direction. They don’t have the uglier emotional static buzzing around them that SEIs do. SEI is far more prone to hysterics....what they lack in gravitas they make up for with ranginess.

    LSIs are anything BUT ideological. LSI is a cynical, tough, practical type. Not a true fanatic or ideologue.

    Remember, the map and the territory are different. SEI descriptions out there do better at describing type 9 than they do SEI.….which can happen when you have socionists that don’t know the enneagram.

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    @Kill4Me you should write your own type descriptions

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    Quote Originally Posted by maithili View Post
    You are possibly a misguided EIE male, or not beta at all.
    I have too much knockout power for an EIE. In both my left and right.

    This article isn't Megane's original thoughts, it is a proper socionics article originally in Russian.
    My disagreement with the article has clearly bothered you. That would suggest you are Alpha quadra.

    Referencing people as misguided because they disagree with socionics canon narrows it down to ESE-Si. And EIE is typically the type that ESE-Si picks when they retype these misguided sorts.

    Your deference to the establishment is duly reinforced by your enneagram type: 6w5 sx/sp.

    FYI Socionics New Wave turns the Russian approach to knowledge about socionic types upside down. The best insights into types come from the ground up.

    Creating your own ideas for what elemental quadra values should be sounds like a Ni-creative, Ti-valuing thing to do.
    Plenty of Se-doms create things. In what area a SLE creates in varies with their interests. Interests aren't type-related.

    If you had more Ni, your imagination would be flexible enough to pick up on that.

    obviously I believe in my typings enough to tout what I have grasped. I suppose that's just a matter of confidence, typologically, for which you don't seem to have much of.

    I'm not really creating any ideas so much as I am describing what I see. I have grasped the qualia of these specific types and I am then using language to communicate what i have grasped. Qualia-grasping is very Se. Ti gives it organization and coordination. My interest is in typology. A ten year old could pick up on that. Your argument is very weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
    Welcome to beta home of the LSI penny pinching misers
    Lol don't confuse LIE with LSI

    Anyway, stereotypes are meaningless.


    I swear, you and Myst are SEIs!
    Lol what the fuck is wrong with you, this retyping compulsion.

    I just can't take this seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
    I maintain that NFs are apathetic to relationships; their own personalities survive by deploying blackmail. SF is relationship-oriented.

    I could argue the need for dishonesty in relationships as well as for honesty.
    I maintain my previous stance; also, you are getting brainwashed by bullshit.


    In actuality, it makes since how this thread is loaded with alphas considering how quadras progress from alphas, betas, gammas and then to deltas through supervisory and beneficiary rings. The OP is alpha and you and Myst are alphas as well. I clearly see LII/SEI activation playing out true to form within this thread
    Supervisory/beneficiary rings lol. More brainwash.

    What the fuck do you get out of typing people randomly?

    You are not gaining any real understanding ruminating on this crap.

    Remove the socionics language and think about this stuff in normal everyday terms. You are going way past the limits of the original socionics framework.

    After you've understood that, go and get into psychology more beyond this extremely narrow framework of socionics. There is so so much more to psychology than that.


    Or you could just as easily take my word on a few things, because my INXx mastermind head is back on straight. My SLE boyfriend and his LSI dad had screwed it back into place, just like I knew they could as soon as I had a formulation of their types, until the unprecedented speed of our dualization and subsequent activation got the best of their mirror relationship! I felt like I had won the lottery as soon as my head fit back on straight. My SLE boyfriend is in jail now, though, and his dad is finally coughing up the funding to remodel his rundown bunker of a house. I think I'm supposed to repay the favor and get him out of jail, it's at least implied by them, but SLEs can be cheating, lying dogs and promiscuous players since their hidden agenda is "to be loved". So what's a girl to do? I'd just as soon let him rot and savor his aged but improved flavor later on in the relationship he had promised to me. (He would have killed himself or someone else on his particular path of disaster without our duality progressing past the initial phase of rapid dualization.)
    God.. just because his socionics type is SLE it doesn't mean you can use this tidbit to make decisions like this in your life.

    Try to interpret literally this phrasing of yours - "but SLEs can be cheating, lying dogs and promiscuous players". There is a "can be" in it. Meaningless on its own. It won't say anything about your life specifically. Again, don't reach beyond the socionics theory's well defined limits.

    If you just mean you don't know him well enough yet so not sure if you want to bail him out by money then sure that's sensible too.

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    Bruh, he hits too hard. The left AND the right.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I think I understand why Beta is the most metaphysical Quadra now.

    Beta is the "meme" quadra. It creates subcultures, ideologies, hierarchies, customs. Things that are beyond the human being, things that can be adopted, shared or transmitted between many human beings. Ideas and ideologies are "alive", and we are their hosts.


    I think Plato was Beta because of the way he put emphasis on our idea of things, not on things themselves. Hegel was probably Beta too, or Ni ego, at least.
    "If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought. If Power asks why, then is Power weakness".



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    @Megane, I am very curious as to how two supposedly positive relationships may play out in these quadras in your view. Basically, how would an IEI and LSI would view an ILI. One is their kindred, and the other is a part of a benefactor/beneficiary ring. They're both "close" as it were, yet also so far. I'm also interested in how you view a good quasi-identical relationship in the long term. Technically, given quadra values, the two ought hate each other yet, when push comes to shove, they get along. LII and ILI don't exactly have any beefs against each other. Hell I got an LII cousin and by god I love him as an intellectual equal. I'm rambling and all but still, each quadra technically has a beef with the others and I'd like to hear your take on that subject. The disrespect may be real, but I'm quite interested in the how and why of that process .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Megane, I am very curious as to how two supposedly positive relationships may play out in these quadras in your view. Basically, how would an IEI and LSI would view an ILI. One is their kindred, and the other is a part of a benefactor/beneficiary ring. They're both "close" as it were, yet also so far. I'm also interested in how you view a good quasi-identical relationship in the long term. Technically, given quadra values, the two ought hate each other yet, when push comes to shove, they get along. LII and ILI don't exactly have any beefs against each other. Hell I got an LII cousin and by god I love him as an intellectual equal. I'm rambling and all but still, each quadra technically has a beef with the others and I'd like to hear your take on that subject. The disrespect may be real, but I'm quite interested in the how and why of that process .
    How I view ILIs: I don't mind them, I get pretty supportive/helpful with them. The Ni of ILI-Ni sometimes actually takes my attention and I listen to it a bit. ILI-Te is just fun to do sparring with, they -not all them, it's more likely with the DCNH D versions or maybe enneagram related- are often pretty feisty. And again, the helpfulness can come out from my part. I listen to their Ni less often. The non-feisty ILIs come off either timid (but interesting Ni; more likely Ni subtype) or confident but very dry (more likely for Te subtype). One more thing I can find entertaining is their Fi rants but not always.
    Last edited by Myst; 01-30-2016 at 02:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    How I view ILIs: I don't mind them, I get pretty supportive/helpful with them. The Ni of ILI-Ni sometimes actually takes my attention and I listen to it a bit. ILI-Te is just fun to do sparring with, they -not all them, it's more likely with the DCNH D versions or maybe enneagram related- are often pretty feisty. And again, the helpfulness can come out from my part. I listen to their Ni less often. The non-feisty ILIs come off either timid (but interesting Ni; more likely Ni subtype) or confident but very dry (more likely for Te subtype). One more thing I can find entertaining is their Fi rants but not always.
    And I appreciate the help. Still, what is it like for a benefactor to meet and get involved with a beneficiary when there's no real factor that sets them up as superior/inferior socially. I heavily suspect that I'm in a supervision type relationship where my supervisee is technically my superior socially. It's... very damaging to my calm as it were. The benefit relationships have those elements too, but it's more subdued rather than blatantly obvious if ya get what I'm trying to say. I wonder how someone would play that in a way that helps both parties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megane View Post
    Actually, the misconception that the SLE collects people to help them is generalized, if anything the SEE is more likely to select individuals that they trust to help them and are quite attentive to these individuals. While the SLE may not entirely be attentive to individuals and prefers to collect others in a rather indirect way. Almost in a sense that the SLE views people as “objects” that they use in an emotionally sterile manner.
    I think you may have nailed the reason why the SLE is only a quasi-dual for me as opposed to the SEE being the full dual. The "sterile" manner would rub me the wrong way. I'd accept it so long as the end goal was reached without major ethical incident yet still, to just use another human as a mere tool emotionally... I just can't fully agree with it. Deep down, I'd want them to see them as human with goals, ambitions, dreams, etc. To just slot them into a framework with no sentimentality, while perhaps justified given the facts of human nature, just feels wrong to me. Not *super* wrong mind you (I get how people get the way they are given environmental factors), but still, not how I'd like it all to truly be. Guess it fits into the dynamic described by socionics as well. You fight with thy quasi-dual, yet you also can't stay mad at them for very long as you both still essentially "get" each other in a fundamental way. So it's like "No! Bad you! Yet I also get it so I guess I can let it all slide as, well, it'll still all work out in the end (though I wish you'd see how my way is better for everyone)". You get the point. I'm just rambling now though, so respond as you will.
    Last edited by End; 01-31-2016 at 05:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    And I appreciate the help. Still, what is it like for a benefactor to meet and get involved with a beneficiary when there's no real factor that sets them up as superior/inferior socially. I heavily suspect that I'm in a supervision type relationship where my supervisee is technically my superior socially. It's... very damaging to my calm as it were. The benefit relationships have those elements too, but it's more subdued rather than blatantly obvious if ya get what I'm trying to say. I wonder how someone would play that in a way that helps both parties.
    I described what it is like in my own experiences. I'll elaborate a bit if that helps. I do naturally get helpful and supportive which may be due to me seeing that they have low Se. Otoh, I have low-ish Ni so it's not always true that I never listen to what the beneficiary has to say especially if they are the Ni subtype. Some ILI-Ni's see me as very cool and they come off rather submissive, the Te subtypes seem to feel a bit closer to being equal to me. They also get more irritated than the ILI-Ni's if they perceive me as not acknowledging their input. On the whole, with ILIs, I always know instinctually that it would be no good if we tried to get closer. Definitely agree on how it would feel unfulfilled. Overall I see it as a positive enough relationship though.

    As to what you are wondering about. From wikisocion, "If the benefactor doesn't offer the beneficiary some praise for his efforts, the beneficiary will feel inadequate" - seems sensible advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I think you may have nailed the reason why the SLE is only a quasi-dual for me as opposed to the SEE being the full dual. The "sterile" manner would rub me the wrong way. I'd accept it so long as the end goal was reached without major ethical incident yet still, to just use another human as a mere tool emotionally... I just can't fully agree with it. Deep down, I'd want them to see them as human with goals, ambitions, dreams, etc. To just slot them into a framework with no sentimentality, while perhaps justified given the facts of human nature, just feels wrong to me. Not *super* wrong mind you (I get how people get the way they are given environmental factors), but still, not how I'd like it all to truly be. Guess it fits into the dynamic described by socionics as well. You fight with thy quasi-dual, yet you also can't stay mad at them for very long as you both still essentially "get" each other in a fundamental way. So it's like "No! Bad you! Yet I also get it so I guess I can let it all slide as, well, it'll still all work out in the end (though I wish you'd see how my way is better for everyone)". You get the point. I'm just rambling now though, so respond as you will.
    Yeah that Fi HA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Yeah that Fi HA.
    Is this how an HA manifests? That the apparent "robot" type lamenting their lack of humanity around such things? Yeah ya got the job done but it just doesn't "feel" right... I mean hell, given the general behavior of an ILI you'd think that's not a big deal but it so completely is yet they just can't explain this paradox in a generally acceptable way. It's basically their fundamental contradiction. Outwardly, they're robots, yet if you glimpse into their heart of hearts they're shedding tears of scarlet!

    It's all very confusing really IMO, how the stereotype assigned to you can be so off the mark yet so on target that it actually makes perfect sense in a kind of bizarre sort of way...
    Last edited by End; 02-08-2016 at 04:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megane View Post
    Sorry, but that's not correct, I never translated a Russian description of the Beta quadra.

    I compiled the information that I have learned in total about that quadra along with my own additional thoughts to better convey the idea of what the Beta quadra is about.

    Even if this was a Russian description, you would probably be more aware of that than I would be, I would never exclusively translate a description to copy and paste that to here, I put a lot of effort into this.

    The Psyche-Yoga descriptions I translated, the stuff that I post about socionics are mentioned from the thoughts of socionists within English communities or from my perspective of what socionics is.

    (But I appreciate it that you wanted to defend my work like that, thank you )
    I've come across all the information in the original post before, hence the mistake.

    But yeah, machine translations do not read nearly as well as this did.

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