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Thread: How do I experience Si when I value Se?

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    Default How do I experience Si when I value Se?

    Pretty much every socionics resource I've read define extraverted sensing as the will power, force and the gut reactions to the external environment... the tendency to hold the objects in the immediate reality, etc. with little concern for the consequences... which are in the domain of introverted intuition. Introverted sensing on the other hand is the desire for comfort, harmony, etc. If I, as an IEI enjoys the music (as it is without any concern for the lyrics), follows the routine to feel the harmony, lift weights, etc. would I be using Si or Se? How to really differentiate them apart in my personal enjoyment of "sensations"? I am trying to develop my role Si, but I think I use Se whenever I try to live in the present moment. Does taking the deep breaths and feeling the internal state (i.e., the direction of airflow) of the body Si or Se?

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    Lifting weights could be any function. From my own it would be the goal to be health, from Si it would be to feel good about themselves and do it because they feel good. From Se it is to be strong. You get my point. It isn't the activity in concern but the thought and motivation.

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    what does Se even feel like?

    anyway, if your overall goal is to just live more in the present, taking deep breathes, exercising, going hiking, etc, might help. (i think?) maybe cook or paint something and notice the components lol. i'm not sure how to separate out the Se from Si.

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    I had made a sticky note of this awhile ago and it is a simple way to remind me the difference between Si and Se. I can tell when I am using my role now because I can temporarily recall an experience almost down to the last detail, and partially the sensations and emotions that went along with it, mostly in my mind but in my body too. It is like replaying a movie and experiencing things like adrenaline or other body sensations (just not as intense as the first time). It doesn't last long though and I have to struggle to hold onto it. Takes way more concentrated focusing on the information processing than using Ni, which comes very effortlessly. This is why I am reluctant to try some things that I have hated in the past and I am willing to replay old scripts in my head before creating new ones. I also had a situation recently that involved an emergency with blood (not mine). I was paralyzed by my Si to the point I could not physically act. I did however call an ambulance. The experience just overloaded my system and I was an emotional mess. In general I can think and act rather quickly, in a crisis, except when it involves blood. :/

    I also think Si is the reason that I was totally freaked out a few days ago when I kicked a caterpillar (barefooted) thinking it was a stick. I could not go in the room I saw it in for like a whole day after it happened. It brought up memories of my sister chasing me with worms when we were children and I still cringe when I think of that. I can't stand worms even the cute stuffed colorful kind. Too many creepy memories associated with them. She used to make me cry with those worms. It was her greatest weapon against me.

    Introverted Sensing is best understood when compared to Extraverted Sensing. With Se, the individual perceives exactly what the senses are telling it, live and in real time.

    With Si, the individual perceives mostly stored memories of previous sensory experiences.

    Thus the person with dominant Introverted Sensing will experience something real time, but then they will quickly compare it to stored memories in their minds.

    The perfect example is a quality assurance inspector in a widget factory. Their job is to look at widgets coming off the production line and then compare those widgets to a known perfect widget, an image of which they have stored in their minds.

    They can easily detect any widgets coming off the production line that do not match the stored image of a perfect widget. Introverted Sensor's brains are wired for this.

    Another example is a personal trainer in a gym who has been trained in anatomy and who knows the precise way to perform each exercise. When they are training someone on how to exercise, they have an image in their mind of how the person should move. How they should lift a weight. How they should hold their body. How they should be breathing. The Introverted Sensor trainer can then instruct the person in how to do the exercise perfectly and safely.

    What makes Si so interested is that the individual's brain is wired make this comparison and to show them what is different between the new widget off the line and the memorized image.

    Thus people with dominant Si usually have the ability to recall a past experience in great vivid detail, complete with any stored emotions. A dominant Si can re-experience a past event just as if it was happening live, complete with memories of how they were feeling at the time.

    Some dominant Introverted Sensors describe this as if a movie was playing in their head, and it takes them back to the original event which they experience as if it were real.

    Some Introverted Sensors also see the world in a surrealistic way. This is where images of the original event appear slightly skewed and distorted. Think of surrealistic paintings.

    Introverted Sensors tend to have very good memories for details. They can easily recall details of things they are interested in: names of movies, actors in movies, names of football players, numbers, percentages, specifications, financial results and prices.

    Remember that Introverted Sensing is focused internally. It's happening inside one's mind and is therefore difficult to observe from the outside.

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    Se brings experience through the senses to someone who spends a lot of time in the intellectual, emotional, and dreamy world in their head

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    Hang out with IEEs (or ILEs).

    Yesterday I've hung out with my IEE-Fi aunt. It really made me engage in my Si Role more. We were on a trip and had to wake up really early before it, at 5:30 am, so I was pretty tired and kept yawning. To keep the conversation going, I've told her how I would like to be in my bed now. Or how I was cold. Little superficial things like that. Engaging my Si Role feels like engaging in small talk to me. Talking about little nothings. I imagine using one's Role has this "small talk" superficiality to it. Of course using a function does not only transfer to communication, so this "small talk" idea extends to the abstract, and more varied situations, as well.

    Anyhow, my Si is not the best regardless, and still pretty unvalued. When we stepped into a train, she immediately said "Ew, it stinks in here. Had a horse been standing in here?!" I did not even notice the smell, until we've sat down for a while, haha. Eventually, I've noticed it, but I was just like "Oh well" in my mind. It did not bother me as much as it bothered her. She took out a perfume sample bottle, and sprayed some of the perfume in the air in front us. "This usually helps with situations like these", she said. I was surprised she's had that perfume with her in the first place, I never do, haha. The bad smell would not go away. She grew more uncomfortable. There was this pretty overweight, old, unkept dude in the back of the train, and it was most likely him who exuded the unpleasant smell. My aunt: "Ugh, I can't bear it any longer, let's go to the other side." Personally, I could have kept sitting there, haha. But for her sake, I've stood up and left the spot in the guy's vicinity.

    All in all, IEEs and ILEs can show you what Si-seeking looks like, and it might push you to engage in your Si Role to please them. But you'll find you actually don't care for Si that much at all, so you may be tempted to leave it alone altogether.
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    First off, I'd say if you're a sensation-type of any kind, you probably carry out a lot of your Si automatically. It doesn't mean any specific concrete set of things will be things you do easily, like for instance with a LSI-Creative, it's likely some of them neglect things like personal needs in favor of more stimulation-seeking.

    If you're an intuitive/N type, yeah you probably do need help, because a classic thing is being unable to balance inner and outer manifestations. The best solution to that is to not segment sensation and just work on it as a whole. Even if a Se ego does not emphasize Si as a perspective, they don't neglect the 2 sides of sensation.

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    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

    The informational macroelement «space» () consists of the essence component «will» («will sensing», «black sensing» )and the relation component «comfort» («comfort sensing», «white sensing» ).

    «comfort» (or «comfort sensing», «white sensing»)

    We remember that macroelements are divided according to their essence component and the relation component. Subjectively, we perceive space as emptiness between objects that is formed by their boundaries. Space would not exist in our perception without boundaries. The measurable space and extent of «empty» space and the notion of objects appear as soon as boundaries appear. Any bound is a force barrier, since we need to apply some force to set boundaries or to change them, hense «will sensing» is related to force. Thus, the essential feature of space is the presence of bounded extent.

    We can consider not only physical but also psychological space. You’ve possibly heard the expression «life space». We can broaden, defend, enrich, make larger or smaller, or protect all these spaces. When you buy something for yourself, your home, or family, as well as earn money, you thereby are strengthening your life space.

    The vocabulary of this information element is following: defense, attack, space limitation, pressure, to strike, to kill, to repulse, will, influence, compulsion, discipline, firmness, power, authority, mobilization, aggression.

    Information on relations between boundaries constitutes the informational element «comfort». Indeed, let us remenver our sensations while wearing new shoes. For example, we could say: «They are too tight and uncomfortable». How have do you know if they are comfortable or not? You have sensed the co-relation between boundaries of your feet and the inner space of the shoes. This relation has brought to you the required information on comfort. The same thing happens when you sit on a chair or an armchair. You sense how boundaries of your body and the chair touch each other. And you get to know if this chair (or a dress, or a room) is comfortable or not.

    Another example regarding this kind of information is the notion of harmony of lines. You see a vase posessing elegant lines and proportions and exclaim: «How beautiful!» Beauty is perceived as relation between boundaries, hence it is also attributed to «comfort sensing». But note, that if we understand beauty as emotional admiration, or if we call beautiful an expensive status object or a relationship, or even a math formula, then we should understand that in this case it means another information element. Such ambiguous words are called multi-elemental. Their attribution to a certain information element depends on the context and on the implied meaning. The word «money», which we usually encounter in the context of «black sensing», is also multi-elemental.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Lifting weights could be any function. From my own it would be the goal to be health, from Si it would be to feel good about themselves and do it because they feel good. From Se it is to be strong. You get my point. It isn't the activity in concern but the thought and motivation.
    My motivation for lifting weight is getting stronger, gaining weight (I am underweight), and at least appear strong from the outside. Most often, I overdo exercises, lift too much weight without any concern for internal states. I think that would be Se, as hypothetically Si user would lift only those weights which his body / health could bear. I was watching EJArendee's videos on Se vs Si, and he explained how ignoring the outside atmosphere (temperature, parameters that might affect the health, etc.) when trying to achieve some goal is the motivation of Se, which might explain why I overdo exercises, overindulge in sensations, etc. Sometimes I go outside the home without wearing any sweater or jacket despite the cold weather.... well because I need to get the "object" as soon as possible. I have a fair amount of Se activities, but it exhausts me and cause fatigue, resulting in pain in the shoulder / back, etc. so I am trying to balance it with Si.

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    Well, do you like such, or do you feel like you're required to be that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    what does Se even feel like?

    anyway, if your overall goal is to just live more in the present, taking deep breathes, exercising, going hiking, etc, might help. (i think?) maybe cook or paint something and notice the components lol. i'm not sure how to separate out the Se from Si.
    I DO take deep breaths, particularly costal breathing to speak assertively, and exercise as well, but I think I "feel" Se when doing such activities and not Si. My gym instructor is LSE, and all he does is sit on a computer table (without any conversations with people) and occasionally shout on people who are not following the instructions (like leaving the weights on the ground instead on their places). He has this "stillness" vibes which feels like he is creating the harmony in the environment. The Se users I've observed move a lot, maneuver in the physical environment, focus on one object to another instinctively, etc.
    Last edited by seriousguy; 12-31-2015 at 05:10 AM.

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    Here:

    My motivation for lifting weight is getting stronger, gaining weight (I am underweight), and at least appear strong from the outside (Se, social appearance, "at least" showing weak). Most often, I overdo exercises, lift too much weight without any concern for internal states. I think that would be Se, as hypothetically Si user would lift only those weights which his body / health could bear. I was watching EJArendee's videos on Se vs Si, and he explained how ignoring the outside atmosphere (temperature, parameters that might affect the health, etc.) when trying to achieve some goal is the motivation of Se, which might explain why I overdo exercises, overindulge in sensations (overindulgence, super-id Si), etc. Sometimes I go outside the home without wearing any sweater or jacket despite the cold weather (ineptitude, one-dimensionality).... well because I need to get the "object" as soon as possible (necessity for Se, super-ego). I have a fair amount of Se activities, but it exhausts me and cause fatigue, resulting in pain in the shoulder / back, etc. so I am trying to balance it with Si.
    Se is in Super-Ego, Si is in Super-Id. That reduces you to PoLR or Role Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    ...
    Se is in Super-Ego, Si is in Super-Id. That reduces you to PoLR or Role Se.
    I appear weak from the outside, yes, it shows the motivation for weight lifting and excising. Overindulging in sensations implies one-dimensionality of sensing, it could be either Si or Se. I don't understand how you deduced that I value Si over Se, can you elaborate more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    ...
    That's really insightful, thanks I run away from the past memories, as all I can recall is the bad memories, including the sensations associated with it (like bad feeling, anxiety etc.) which happens automatically, so I instead focus on the future and present. Do you think "Creative visualization" relates to Si scenario / image building from the past experience? This technique is recommended to me in the past for coping with a fear of public speaking, but it never worked for me as I can't accurately associate the sensations (like touch of the objects, smell, etc.) to the objects in the good past experience.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    I appear weak from the outside, yes, it shows the motivation for weight lifting and excising. Overindulging in sensations implies one-dimensionality of sensing, it could be either Si or Se. I don't understand how you deduced that I value Si over Se, can you elaborate more?
    Sensations are Si. Force is Se. You having overindulgence of physical pleasures implies Si in the super-id. Super-ego is the Social control block; necessities in the face of society. Super-id is the individual control block; that which you like via individuality despite what society has to say. The bolded areas are marking indicators of dimensionality and blocks.

    How did you come by IEI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Sensations are Si. Force is Se. You having overindulgence of physical pleasures implies Si in the super-id. Super-ego is the Social control block; necessities in the face of society. Super-id is the individual control block; that which you like via individuality despite what society has to say. The bolded areas are marking indicators of dimensionality and blocks.

    How did you come by IEI?
    If sensations (stimulation-seeking) are exclusive to Si, then it could be possible that I have developed Si (perhaps due to harmonizing type). I certainly use force A LOT, I don't see why it can be a PoLR, maybe role, but not PoLR. IxE have Se in role, and I am anything but extrovert (both socially and cognitively). When I read "Social control block", the Model G type diagrams came to my mind, but I've just looked again, and it put role in "social adaptation block" (I don't know if they are same though). I actually see Te (in myself) as a necessity to function in the society.

    How did I come by IEI? Through understanding the functions both intuitively and logically, and realizing that I use Ni and Ti very extensively. Initially typed myself as LII and ILI, but realized I am a strong Ni subtype of IEI who has undergone (could be temporary) a change and value logic over ethics, though still subconsciously moving through ethics / feeling. In the conversations with IEIs online, they type me as LII based on the vibes (and their understanding of alpha vs beta values). Previously studied Myers and Briggs system (self-typed INFJ, regardless of the differences in the system), but realized that socionics make more sense, say "more" and matches the original Jungian model better. Socionics is also quite open-minded about new ideas / theories, and people can discuss the development of shadow / unconscious / weak functions. I have developed LSI/SLE values over-time, and these days I am all in the implementation of my goals, organizing myself, studying concrete things (or studying abstract theories to apply on myself). Basically, I value Ni/Se and Ti/Fe, so I belong to beta quadra, you can argue why you think I value Si/Ne (which would put me in the alpha quadra assuming you acknowledges Ti/Fe valuing in me) as I can understand the rationale that people mistype themselves a lot. My environment strongly encourages sensing and logic, which explains why I've developed beta ST values, and I am just 21. I hope it makes sense, I am open to new ideas and the typing, because I am obsessively want the "truth" to develop myself fully as much earlier in life as possible.

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    Are you aware that at your age, in Socionics, you would just be in the beginning of an observable personality shift? From 14-21, individuals are in the development of their super-ego. Transitioning between Role+PoLR/Creative, until they realize their Leading.

    "My environment strongly encourages sensing and logic"
    So you're basically required to ST? Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Are you aware that at your age, in Socionics, you would just be in the beginning of an observable personality shift? From 14-21, individuals are in the development of their super-ego. Transitioning between Role+PoLR/Creative, until they realize their Leading.

    "My environment strongly encourages sensing and logic"
    So you're basically required to ST? Lol
    I don't know, but I think leading remains the same regardless of Role / PoLR / Creative. I see Ni in my ego... it's just obvious. Yes, I required to ST daily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    I don't know, but I think leading remains the same regardless of Role / PoLR / Creative. I see Ni in my ego... it's just obvious. Yes, I required to ST daily.
    Required = Super-ego. Necessity to Ti+Se = EII or IEE.

    Ne vs Ni:

    The informational macroelement «time» () is subdivided into the essence component «possibilities» («possibility intuition», «black intuition» ) and the relational component «events» («temporal intuition», «white intuition» ).

    Let us imagine that we are standing somewhere in an open place. We have a lot of possibilities to turn around ourselves at any angle up to 360° and make a step. But all these possibilities are potential and not yet realised. From the variety, we can choose only one possibility and make that step. And this undertaken step will crate a realised possibility, i.e., an event. This illustration is very simple, however at any moment in our lives we indeed have an immence choice of options. The exact development of further events depends on the choices we make. Thus, a possibility is a potential event, and it constitutes the essence of «time» macroelement. Possibility intuition is related to such notions as insight, positive (negative) potential, abilities, essence, ideas, originality, uncommon, interest, fabulous, good and bad variants, possibilities, positive and negative traits, «the other side of the coin», lack of prospects, meaninglessness, mediocrity.

    Instead, it is an accomplished event that will be registereg on the timeline. It determines the developments of history. We subjectively perceive sequential events as flow of time. «Время и интуиция времени»Not only something grand and historical is considered to be an event, but any realised possibility or change: a pen which fell from a table is also an event. Flow of time can be described only in terms of events or happenigs. Try to write an essay about how you have spent your day, and you will see that you are writing about what has happened during the day. The man perceives time through events, i.e., realised possibilities. Therefore, co-relations between possibilities as they are realised is translated into events, or changes in time. Time intuition is associated with such notions as: perspective, events, changes, forsight, prediction, being late, delay, waste of time, cavalcade of history, fortune, etc.

    An important remark should be done here. Terms used in socionics are often confused with the common language notions and meanings. The word «intuition» is often understood as getting some information by insight. Of course, we can grasp some possibilities or predict some events in this way, but describing a way or mode of getting information does not always correcpond with the "possibility intuition" in socionics. Perhaps, intuits generally have a more developed channel for getting insight knowledge, but this topic has not yet been investigated. Therefore, it is incorrect to immediately label all people who have had insights or who have seen prophetic dreams and «signs» as intuits. All people have insight to some extent, however 'intuitive' TIMs must be identified by means of other tools, that will be discussed later.
    Ne Ego considers possibilities, alternatives, different outlooks, etc. Ni ego considers events, forecasting, probability, etc.

    This is for conscious thought. You're either clearly thinking through one, or thinking through the other. Ni types will go with the most likely outcome in regards to others. Ne will be more concerned with the possibilities of what may happen, than sticking to what they consider the safest bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Anyhow, my Si is not the best regardless, and still pretty unvalued. When we stepped into a train, she immediately said "Ew, it stinks in here. Had a horse been standing in here?!" I did not even notice the smell
    If a smell really bothers me - then I'm much more likely to move to some place away from the smell and to minimise any significance of such. It's a downbeat/shift rather than upbeat in your face move though. Like squeezing between people to get through a crowd rather than pushing people out of the way.

    Although usually it's things like women who wear too much bad perfume. I'm more sensitive to potent "positive" smells than potent negative smells.

    Where positive is what some people think smell good like cheap perfume, air freshner etc. Like I think air freshner smells worse than shit. (high frequency tinny pop music bugs me too)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post

    Although usually it's things like women who wear too much bad perfume. I'm more sensitive to potent "positive" smells than potent negative smells.
    I tend to be turned off by strong perfume smells too. If I can smell someone's perfume from the other side of the room, it's horrible to me, haha.
    Smell plays a big part in what we find attractive; I suppose perfume smells can become overwhelming in that manner, because to your instinctual mind it is like you smell the pheromones of some random stranger... Likely a type of pheromones you are not into, so it is a nuisance to you.

    I don't mind people smelling nice. I like it the best when I can smell someone's perfume or natural scent when I am much more up close to them (voluntarily). Like, when I am in their personal space/bubble on purpose, and they smell good, it is mostly pleasant for me. My SEE sister is pretty smart about good smells and whatnot, so I always find it pleasant being near her, haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Anyhow, my Si is not the best regardless, and still pretty unvalued. When we stepped into a train, she immediately said "Ew, it stinks in here. Had a horse been standing in here?!" I did not even notice the smell, until we've sat down for a while, haha. Eventually, I've noticed it, but I was just like "Oh well" in my mind. It did not bother me as much as it bothered her. She took out a perfume sample bottle, and sprayed some of the perfume in the air in front us. "This usually helps with situations like these", she said. I was surprised she's had that perfume with her in the first place, I never do, haha. The bad smell would not go away. She grew more uncomfortable. There was this pretty overweight, old, unkept dude in the back of the train, and it was most likely him who exuded the unpleasant smell. My aunt: "Ugh, I can't bear it any longer, let's go to the other side." Personally, I could have kept sitting there, haha. But for her sake, I've stood up and left the spot in the guy's vicinity.
    That doesn't seem like weak or unvalued Si to me. It just seems like you have a less sensitive sense of smell which can be caused by allergies or colds too. Maybe weak Se can cause it since smell is one of the senses and is an in the moment thing, unless you are recalling a similar smell and it triggers something in you but I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    That's really insightful, thanks I run away from the past memories, as all I can recall is the bad memories, including the sensations associated with it (like bad feeling, anxiety etc.) which happens automatically, so I instead focus on the future and present. Do you think "Creative visualization" relates to Si scenario / image building from the past experience? This technique is recommended to me in the past for coping with a fear of public speaking, but it never worked for me as I can't accurately associate the sensations (like touch of the objects, smell, etc.) to the objects in the good past experience.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization
    My EII sister is really into creative visualization and she tried to get me into it. I tried to tell her I was not good at it but she still bought me books. I think it falls more in the domain of Si (if you are good at it) when you are very specific with what you are visualizing. I guess I am more into writing stuff down and letting the "universe" take care of it.

    I tend to relive the sensations of bad memories more often than the good ones but not on purpose. Sometimes lots of anxiety. Something triggers it and then it brings up unpleasant emotions and sensations. I try to shake it off, sometimes literally, quickly. I can do it by humming or singing sometimes. That chases bad memories away or I will close my eyes and try to focus on something else. I hate bad memories and everything they bring up so even if it only lasts a few moments it can feel like an eternity when you are caught up in it.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Required = Super-ego. Necessity to Ti+Se = EII or IEE.
    Required for myself... for completing my goals... to implement them by making the blueprint (Ni), studying the system deeply (Ti) and just doing it (Se) without contemplating too much and making the plan complex (Ni+Ti), and sometimes listening to the songs (particularly heavy metal) to become motivated (Fe)... not for appealing to the society. Te is something I thought to develop a while ago due to its bluntness and objectivity in debates, as I was losing debates with my LIE friend, and also because I thought organization skills are exclusive to Te, but due to its PoLR nature, I am studying things related to organization (Ti) and focusing on the outside world (Se) as much as I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    Required for myself... for completing my goals... to implement them by making the blueprint (Ni), studying the system deeply (Ti) and just doing it (Se) without contemplating too much and making the plan complex (Ni+Ti), and sometimes listening to the songs (particularly heavy metal) to become motivated (Fe)... not for appealing to the society. Te is something I thought to develop a while ago due to its bluntness and objectivity in debates, as I was losing debates with my LIE friend, and also because I thought organization skills are exclusive to Te, but due to its PoLR nature, I am studying things related to organization (Ti) and focusing on the outside world (Se) as much as I can.
    You're using a lot of those wrong.

    "without contemplating too much" means with less Mental and more automatic Vital.

    Te is properties of objects and physics-work. Ti is the comparison of objects in regards to each other.

    "and focusing on the outside world (Se)"
    Se has nothing to do with the outside world. Se is Force and Boundaries. I quoted Se vs Si earlier.

    "I am obsessively want the "truth" Ti
    " to develop myself fully" Ne

    That's Ti to Ne, and Mental. You're some static.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    That doesn't seem like weak or unvalued Si to me. It just seems like you have a less sensitive sense of smell which can be caused by allergies or colds too. Maybe weak Se can cause it since smell is one of the senses and is an in the moment thing, unless you are recalling a similar smell and it triggers something in you but I dunno.
    My sense of smell is not bad. In another comment I have mentioned how certain smells can be quite intense for me in a negative manner. But it is largely unrelated to the harmonic equilibrium of the bodily self and/or environment that Si valuing wants to achieve. When smells "trigger" me, it is mostly related to attraction or the lack thereof. For instance, some people's normal (not dirty) body scent turns me off a lot, to the point I want to go away. It is rather what is considered to be a "less pleasant" smell, one that "taints" the environment, that I do not care for.

    For instance, my LSE-Si father regularly gets upset over the smell of cat food in the house. If he walks in, he almost always starts to get angry about it. He'll press me to stop giving the cats this food, because it makes the entire house stink (according to him). Whereas I don't care that much about it. He'll throw the food away, or just complain enough so I put it away. I do believe this is related to Si. Not all smells are related to Si, but those that pertain to "upsetting" the environment usually are.

    (...) Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.
    Also, I want to note that Si valuing types commonly attache special meaning to smells, related to memory/past experience, much more than Se valuing types do. In that manner, often has a certain nostalgic quality about it. You may argue this is unrelated, but most people who are regularly nostalgic have been valuing in my experience. In relation to smells, valuing is rather focused on "good" smells that make a good impression on others, whereas valuing tends to favour smells that have a positive impression on them, usually related to their past experiences. I am not saying Se valuing types never experience nostalgia or choose smells related to personal memory, but it is just less common for them to do so in comparison to Si valuing types.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 12-31-2015 at 12:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    You're using a lot of those wrong.

    "without contemplating too much" means with less Mental and more automatic Vital.

    Te is properties of objects and physics-work. Ti is the comparison of objects in regards to each other.

    "and focusing on the outside world (Se)"
    Se has nothing to do with the outside world. Se is Force and Boundaries. I quoted Se vs Si earlier.

    "I am obsessively want the "truth" Ti
    " to develop myself fully" Ne

    That's Ti to Ne, and Mental. You're some static.
    "without contemplating too much" means not forecasting by collecting the possibilities or living in the head without any action, and just do things tactically like a typical Beta ST would do. I didn't say Se is about the outside world (or living in the present moment imply the usage of Se), but how I am focusing on the outside for the facts (as I want to for Te related tasks) so that I can understand the concrete things better. I can have strong Ne, but I don't value it and focus on how things are going to turn out.

    It's interesting that you think I am Ti/Ne valuing, as you aren't the first person to have this opinion. I am thinking of making a separate type-me post, where I will make points on why people are wrong about typing people based on their behaviors (without considering other possibilities) and why I think I am an IEI who value Ni/Se over Ne/Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    If I, as an IEI enjoys the music (as it is without any concern for the lyrics), follows the routine to feel the harmony, lift weights, etc. would I be using Si or Se?
    music relates to F and Ni mostly

    How to really differentiate them apart in my personal enjoyment of "sensations"?
    When you see and sense traits of objects - it's Se. When you estimate is it pleasant or beautiful - Si.
    For example, - notice a color of an object - Se, decide do you like this color - Si.
    If you'll look at something and just draw it with most accuracy or make a sculpture - you'll use Se mostly in such copping. When you think anything else besides copping like what emotional impressions your painting gives, is it beautiful - other functions are used.

    I am trying to develop my role Si
    to develop role function is better by suggestive function. force of E/I functions is linked
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    in SEIs:
    SEIs prefer to guide others by providing individual rewards and helping satisfy the needs of specific people that hold meaning in their lives rather than through direct leadership or issuing directives. They avoid confrontation, but become fierce and unbending for brief periods of time when they are fully unavoidable.

    He does not resonate well with the idea of beating the competition, preferring instead to listen to their internal desires and care for their own physical, emotional, and psychological well-being rather than doing what the outside world seems to demand or require of them.

    SEIs are adept at perceiving fights over power of a confrontational nature around them and are able to resist them or even actively participate in them if that is seen as unavoidable. However they see no point in giving these power struggles priority over their own sense of comfort and well-being. Participation in violent physical activities where such fights may take place, as in some sports, are motivated not by those fights themselves but by the stimulating sensations those activities generate, such as the release of adrenaline.
    in SLIs:
    SLIs try to avoid making demands on others and themselves and prefer to motivate people by offering them enjoyable rewards rather than pressuring them to act. They are impervious to forceful attempts by others to make them do things and become very stubborn when pressured. However, when under extreme stress or in a hostile situation, SLIs can become very aggressive and forceful for periods― sometimes with malicious intent. This function is the strongest (and malevolent) part of the SLIs' subconscious.

    Taking action solely to better their own economic status (how rich they appear to others) or social condition does not often appeal to the SLI.
    in SEEs:
    SEEs place little emphasis on this function despite having a strong sense of it. They prefer finding a state that is powerful or influential to one that is understated or nuanced. This often leads to an over-the-top attitude that can cause mutual disharmony because of their direct approach. They perceive this function but are unable to do much with regard to it and ignore it.

    Knows exactly what is needed for an attractive, comfortable environment and is very good at evaluating this in present environments. If the SEE is "stuck" in a social environment he does not prefer, he can appear to enjoy it and get along with others well for a while, but he will soon become bored and feel a constant nagging in the back of his head to "get the f*** out of here!" In such a situation, he will look for the first excuse possible to exit the situation elegantly and preserve the good will of others towards him.
    in SLEs:
    SLEs are aware of how something makes them feel, but give little concern to it. (They will not, however, refrain from expressing their physical attraction or desire towards another individual.)

    SLEs effortlessly manage to create an environment of comfort for themselves, but this comfort extends to very little, as they see no need to occupy themselves with creating excessively cozy atmospheres. As long as SLEs are not overly unhealthy or malnourished, they're unconcerned with what they eat and drink. SLEs are quite capable of living with the bare minimum and not feeling disturbed or unsettled by their circumstances. This gives the SLE the ability to ignore discomfort and tedium, powering through such obstacles in order to accomplish their goals.
    Basically, -valuing types are more likely to find relaxed and unchallenging environment rather unpleasant and perhaps boring.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    "without contemplating too much" means not forecasting by collecting the possibilities or living in the head without any action, and just do things tactically like a typical Beta ST would do. I didn't say Se is about the outside world (or living in the present moment imply the usage of Se), but how I am focusing on the outside for the facts (as I want to for Te related tasks) so that I can understand the concrete things better. I can have strong Ne, but I don't value it and focus on how things are going to turn out.

    It's interesting that you think I am Ti/Ne valuing, as you aren't the first person to have this opinion. I am thinking of making a separate type-me post, where I will make points on why people are wrong about typing people based on their behaviors (without considering other possibilities) and why I think I am an IEI who value Ni/Se over Ne/Si.
    No, you're just off on your super-blocks and blocks. What you've been saying in this thread enforces static, not dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    No, you're just off on your super-blocks and blocks. What you've been saying in this thread enforces static, not dynamic.
    I haven't studied Reinin Dichotomies deeply, so I don't understand your deduction. Can you highlight the words / sentences which enforce static? LSI and SLE in the Beta quadra are static types. Perhaps it's the Ti in the ego that makes one static. If that's the case, then it could be possible that I use Ti (as an hidden agenda) heavily, thus appearing as Ti ego. These trait based approach to type people is flawed, as the models assume the person is going to use ego block heavily, when that's not always the case, perhaps due to unfavorable environment. Conflating values with functions is an absurdity as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    I haven't studied Reinin Dichotomies deeply, so I don't understand your deduction. Can you highlight the words / sentences which enforce static? LSI and SLE in the Beta quadra are static types. Perhaps it's the Ti in the ego that makes one static. If that's the case, then it could be possible that I use Ti (as an hidden agenda) heavily, thus appearing as Ti ego. These trait based approach to type people is flawed, as the models assume the person is going to use ego block heavily, when that's not always the case, perhaps due to unfavorable environment. Conflating values with functions is an absurdity as well.
    Static just meaning Ti, NE, Se, and Fi in the Mental Super-block.

    "thus appearing as Ti ego"
    False social appearance isn't HA. It's Role.

    Beta ST? No. But I do think you're about to fall pretty hard from such sometime in the next couple of years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Static just meaning Ti, NE, Se, and Fi in the Mental Super-block.

    "thus appearing as Ti ego"
    False social appearance isn't HA. It's Role.

    Beta ST? No. But I do think you're about to fall pretty hard from such sometime in the next couple of years.
    In that case, what would be my type according to your assessment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    In that case, what would be my type according to your assessment?
    Most likely EII, currently alternating between Role+Creative (Ti+Ne) (LII) and Role+PoLR (Ti+Se) (LSI).


    Control block 2 (Super-ego) of the Mental superblock. Age 11-14 through 19-21 (approximately). Transition from Identity to Personality, from the block of individual life to the block of social life. Development of social attitude, social medium discovery. Level of the psyche development in this period can be expressed through the standpoint - "I have to/I must".

    This block can be the source of many mistypings and confusions and the reason why many socionists don’t recommend being typed before at least 18. People tend to over-associate themselves with their Super-ego, that is also called the block of social adjustment, and sometimes get stuck in it up till 30 and even further, while Ego block remains unclaimed.

    At later stages, when a person is supposed to be already at their Ego level, it’s pretty much common to mistype as Role+Creative, because vulnerable becomes more and more obvious and pronounced, but self-identification with Super-ego still remains strong.

    Executive block 2 (Ego) of the Mental superblock. Age 19-21 through 28 (approximately). Development of intellectual maturity, active attempts at independent creativity, deepening of understanding of moral norms and attitudes, role and situational behavior, development of socio-temporal ideas of themselves as an adult, which leads to a more or less clear awareness of their functional purpose. Level of the psyche development in this period can be expressed through the standpoint - "I know".
    For the length of this thread, Fi is the only element missing from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Introverted Sensing is best understood when compared to Extraverted Sensing. With Se, the individual perceives exactly what the senses are telling it, live and in real time.

    With Si, the individual perceives mostly stored memories of previous sensory experiences.

    Thus the person with dominant Introverted Sensing will experience something real time, but then they will quickly compare it to stored memories in their minds.

    The perfect example is a quality assurance inspector in a widget factory. Their job is to look at widgets coming off the production line and then compare those widgets to a known perfect widget, an image of which they have stored in their minds.

    They can easily detect any widgets coming off the production line that do not match the stored image of a perfect widget. Introverted Sensor's brains are wired for this.

    Another example is a personal trainer in a gym who has been trained in anatomy and who knows the precise way to perform each exercise. When they are training someone on how to exercise, they have an image in their mind of how the person should move. How they should lift a weight. How they should hold their body. How they should be breathing. The Introverted Sensor trainer can then instruct the person in how to do the exercise perfectly and safely.

    What makes Si so interested is that the individual's brain is wired make this comparison and to show them what is different between the new widget off the line and the memorized image.

    Thus people with dominant Si usually have the ability to recall a past experience in great vivid detail, complete with any stored emotions. A dominant Si can re-experience a past event just as if it was happening live, complete with memories of how they were feeling at the time.

    Some dominant Introverted Sensors describe this as if a movie was playing in their head, and it takes them back to the original event which they experience as if it were real.

    Some Introverted Sensors also see the world in a surrealistic way. This is where images of the original event appear slightly skewed and distorted. Think of surrealistic paintings.

    Introverted Sensors tend to have very good memories for details. They can easily recall details of things they are interested in: names of movies, actors in movies, names of football players, numbers, percentages, specifications, financial results and prices.

    Remember that Introverted Sensing is focused internally. It's happening inside one's mind and is therefore difficult to observe from the outside.
    but this isn't socionics afaik ?

    also, some of this sounds like having a photographic memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Most likely EII, currently alternating between Role+Creative (Ti+Ne) (LII) and Role+PoLR (Ti+Se) (LSI).
    Interesting that you see Se as PoLR when Te seems plainly obvious to me. Either way, I see both Se and Te one-dimensional (very weak), so running by the same model, I am EII or IEI. It is possible that I am an EII who is associating with Ti role (due to extreme stress, which might explain neurosis in me) and conflating it with ego. Can you tell me how to make a type-me post? Which kinds of information are needed for the type assessment by other forum members?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    Interesting that you see Se as PoLR when Te seems plainly obvious to me. Either way, I see both Se and Te one-dimensional (very weak), so running by the same model, I am EII or IEI. It is possible that I am an EII who is associating with Ti role (due to extreme stress, which might explain neurosis in me) and conflating it with ego. Can you tell me how to make a type-me post? Which kinds of information are needed for the type assessment by other forum members?
    There should be a template on those forums. As I stated before, there are 3 typically displayed types, Super-ego, Business, and actual. There are also the inversion of these on Mental/Vital, Activity, Benefactor, and Quasi-Identical. The ability to discern between them is subject both to the individual, who may be acting in any one of the 3 typical ones, and the typer, who may not have good Mental/Vital recognition. PoLR is a point of neurosis that typically is avoided altogether. Suggestive is that which we know we are not good at, simply due to the fact that we want such and are aware of lack of our object of desire.

    You, for instance, seem like white logic, Ti. Comparisons of placement of "things." This suggests Ti role. Similarly, your emotion displays are subjugated. To what? To the absorption and processing of others' emotions.

    If and when you find your Leading, it is not likely something others will ever really recognize, as in the social sphere, until you are much older and have all the information you need, you will behave in a strictly logical manner, you should remember and recall your Leading often , as all things have the ultimate goal of the Leading. If the goal, the REAL goal, is not for "peace," then why should it possibly have any consequence. In recognition and remembrance of the pain we have felt, people are able to see and recognize such in others, and, ultimately, strive for a tomorrow free from such pain.

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    I haven’t read the whole thread. Also this probably kinda tangents the issue, like I didn’t write neatly, yo this is how it should go with you. It’s just my personal experience with sensing functions, take it or leave it.

    Preface: I am somebody who likes a state of mind, where I feel I’m concentrating on something 100%. I remember certain activities from back then, which made me engange in this state, like when I was drawing in school. I read sth. about like when you begin and you make the mistake on working on it too much, like thinking about what you are doing too much, you cannot really enter into this natural state. After some time, when you loose that awareness and you are really just into the activity, it just flows and then it's like 4 hours went and it felt like 1 hour and you feel like you could still sit there, working on whatever you were producing. I also remember, when I was sitting in the library or in the book shop and read for like hours. I was mentally exhausting myself and then I stepped out of the building and I looked around and it felt like my filter became so clear.

    Normally there are a lot of thoughts and things going on inside my head. After exhausting myself mentally, it‘s like my brain becomes empty in a good way. I felt like after this, things became clearer, sharper, like my vision/the filter cleared up. It‘s like looking at things and it’s just an relaxed awareness, being immersed naturally, organically in your surroundings. Looking around yourself and seeing things. You know, don‘t think about sth., no mental processing, planning to reach goal X. Just experiencing something. Being drawn into the experience. I was kinda young back then, but I remember that sensation, because it felt like really light in my head and like grounded and clearsighted and that made me feel tranquil and relaxed. Single minded concentration on a thing before me helps me... idk.

    So I have this tendency of trying to concentrate on sth. for a long period of time (never loose sight). But sometimes with this tendency of mine, things can get a bit too much (overdoing it). Like you’re too concentrated on sth. and also with other things, it can start to get too much in my head. And when I feel like I have accumulated too much, I don’t see clear anymore. I start to feel to tense. I think sometimes you have to let yourself room to breathe. Development needs time to take place. Like try to give it your best shot. Like I have this periods, where I go about things and I immerse myself in sth. and focus and ... everything. This is how it feels the most natural for me and with that I sometimes forgot to eat and you know when people are like sitting down and relax... I just couldn’t when I felt like things weren’t finished.

    I had to deal with some consequences because of that behaviour and I think for me, with Si it’s about developing an awareness of your body. Like learning to recognize some signals. Like I have some clues now, when I should take a pause. For example I won’t get any further with this today, or I realize I’m stuck with this, I'll take a pause. Doing something to recharge myself in a relaxed way. But you know don’t plan it. I think it’s somehow funny when you are already in this mode and then you are like ok now I even plan, when I want to relax. Just naturally, organically recharging myself. Now I recognize this state, when my brain is becoming truly aware again. Not concentrating, narrow focus. More like an relaxed aware state, where my awareness broadens again and I pick things up naturally. It’s like getting too caught up in narrow focus, it can lead to unawareness with consequences.

     
    Body Awareness: I try to recognize it now, if I’m in this state. Like by body awareness, I recognize that I start to feel too high strung. Another way is to close my eyes, pause and track how fast the thoughts are spinning right now. I try to make myself aware, if I’m wheeling to much fast forward in my head (charged state). Like am I too much ahead of normal time (seconds) like my thoughts are racing and it's too fast and I can't count down the seconds in a relaxed way. I see if it's this or if I‘m with time (like my thoughts are clear and lined and concised, and I can do a relaxed counting of seconds). And when I’m really relaxed I don‘t feel time pressure at all. But when I’m bored I’m feel like to slow in the head, which is also not good. So when I’m in the charged state, I know now that I need to take a break/pause.

    Then when the speed has turned itself down and I enter that state again, where I feel my scope broaden again, is not narrow anymore, I continue. Then I also had to recognize, when it’s enough for that day. Back then, my parents would give me the advice to stop while I’m still feeling good and not to push it until I feel tired or not good. So idk about gym or body awareness and eating the right foods. I really tried and people really tried with me, but It’s just ... it’s difficult. Now I just learned to cover basics. Like in not overdoing things. Just trying to get an awareness, eating things that are basic and that I feel like are not too heavy. With sports ... I hate gyms. I could never work out a gym routine. I fucking hate the building, the whole stuff inside ehhh. I actually try to combine sports with my other tendency.

    Like I bike for a long time, until I feel like I’m starting to feel very aware in my body. Like the beginning is hard and I feel too head centered and boah .. I don’t wanna. Then after some time I reach a state, where I feel like I could bike and bike and bike... and then I usually enter this moment, where I look at the trees, at the light and I feel very immersed. You know, I love the golden hour... when the sun is low set and everything looks warm. So the thing is, I don‘t schedule anything, because that would be like playing into my natural tendency again and that doesn’t really help. I think it’s about thinking back and finding an activity, where I always felt immersed and natural and body aware. Like being aware how relaxed you are breathing. Like when I went for a swim in cold water, then came home and while sleeping, it was like body rememberance, like I remember how the water felt, the movements etc. I think it has to be natural, to be helpful.
    Regarding Si: I read somewhere that Si is about homeostasis and I think this is maybe a definiton of Si, that I can understand (because I can see how it affects my Si Polr father). I remember this article about a young fellow, starting his job at the Bank of America in London. He was like working non stop and they found him dead in his shower after he came home from working to change clothes etc. It was a big deal, because they discussed the working conditions, like days working without sleeping, practically living in your office, just getting home for 30 min to shower and change clothes. They speculated this had sth. to do with his death. He had some epileptic seizures from time to time and after the autopsy it turned out, he had one before his dead. So they speculated, that he fell because of his seizure and drowned in his shower. So the working conditions where not the main cause, but probably played a part. I just remembered it now and this is just how I see very weak Si. Like this constant ignoring of warning signals of your body, gloating over bodily capacities, in favor for Ni future planning (Yeah I haven’t slept for 2 days, but this just needs to be done rn ... I will rest after that okay?)

    This is how I see those 2 things as antagonistic, working against each other. Some people have this different style, like needing to have their minds on sth. non stop for days. Some people just work that way. Like this way of working is just stimulating their brain and other things just don't work for them. Srsly it’s just my personal experience, there are some days, where my brain starts to get very slowed down , then I start to gloat and then it’s really like the caricature of the person who is ‚not really there‘ and kinda absent and brain feels like empty (in a bad way) and I hate that like hell. I think in developing Si (to which extent it is possible to you) you need to build up an honest awareness, where the limits are (although it’s like a constant tug of war) and what I see with healthy Si in my real life, it’s more like they know how to take care of the work, but not to the cost of your own health. Regarding Si as smell, and food and whatever. No clue man.
    Last edited by Nymeria; 03-28-2016 at 10:19 PM. Reason: added facts to bank of america story

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    You, for instance, seem like white logic, Ti. Comparisons of placement of "things." This suggests Ti role. Similarly, your emotion displays are subjugated. To what? To the absorption and processing of others' emotions.
    But, if I am using Ti on a regular basis without resorting back to Fi (which is the function I hate in other people, particularly Fi leads because they don't "get" my logic and remain attached to their ideals / beliefs, so I don't dig the idea of my ego as Fi leading), then why it could be a role? Because, AFAIK, we use role only for certain situations, and that also when we need to impress people or show our competence.

    PoLR is a point of neurosis, I agree. I have OCPD like symptoms like controlling my life TOO much, obsessive attention to details, perfectionism which leads to no action, which makes me insane, neurotic and tensed (probably due to unhealthy traits of 1w9), I always thought it's coming from Te PoLR, but it could be coming from Ni leading wherein I try to control the situations that I've already forecasted.

    I am pretty confident that I value Ti (always making relations between "objects", debating with people both in real-life and online, finding logical errors in people's arguments, try to make sense of things logically, system / model building, became agnostic atheist / moral relativist after obsessively studying religion / philosophy for years, particularly my native religion Islam) and Fe (animating face, though not much, emotional awareness of people, able to motivate / influence people, but not much, has a strong desire to study things holistically and change the overall society, dislike objectively understood values of my society / culture, but still want to study them to influence people in their language). People associate themselves with super-ego when they are not at peace with their ego, like pretending to be someone else to get appraised. This could also lead to narcissistic tendencies (like fleas) in people who have been around narcissistic people / parents in their childhood.

    I don't think I am an EII or LII, because I've met several of them IRL (not that I think it's a valid argument, but the reason why I find it hard to accept that I belong to these types). You have closed yourself to other possibilities and resorting to find out the type without getting enough information / details and nitpicking, as to satisfy the validity of those models / way to type people.

    I have read few questionnaires on the forums, but don't really know which one to pick and create a type-me thread. Can anyone help me either on here or through PM?

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    Fe is an action. Fi is not.

    If you dislike people's Fi... You don't, because it is not an action which you can perceive. Only extroverted elements are actions.

    Fi is the comparison of emotional states. Fe is the volatility that creates volatility in others, either for the betterment or harm of emotional stability as a whole.

    I mentioned your age for a reason. Time exists. People change over time. Socionics was designed based upon people in their 30's.

    "It must make logical sense" is Role Ti, not Ti Leading.



    Notice how many of your statements refer to your typings of others, which may or may not be correct.

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