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Thread: Difference between base/demonstrative and suggestive/polr explained

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    Default Difference between base/demonstrative and suggestive/polr explained

    I think I finally got a really good grasp on the exact differences between these functions and the nature of conscious/unconscious so I'd thought I'd share. You probably already know the basics so I won't go there. Lets use LII and ILI as an example.


    LII has all the conscious functions of ILI as his unconscious functions and vice versa. When a Ti seeking type ask LII to explain a concept, the LII will do so throughly because he is always "aware" of the existence of this function and its uses. When you ask ILI for an explanation to a statement or claim he made, he will give you strange looks and be baffled that you do not understand because this is something that comes so easily and naturally for himself that he doesn't realize others might not have this same ability. The same could be said LII's Ni. Knowing the future impact of the decisions of himself and others is something he has always been able to do since day one so he is oblivious that not everybody else has this same ability.


    You can also observe this in LSE vs SLE. Complaining to LSE about not having enough willpower to do something will not register to him and he'll tell you to just suck it up and go do it. Do the same to SLE and he'll provide you a story about what keeps him going in life.


    Now lets look at polr and suggestive functions. The polr is conscious a function, so we are aware of this function and thus our deficiencies with it. When others verbalize this function and bring it to our attention this causes irritation because when already know what they are trying to say but we simply lack the innate, unconscious ability to make use of any of that information. However, it is a misconception that we want absolutely nothing to do the polr. Ni polrs will still seek someone who is imaginative and punctual, Ti polrs will still admire people with a strong sense of logic, Se polrs will still be attracted to motivated individuals, etc. We become comforted and even perhaps aroused when we see people skillfully using this function as if its no big deal. LII becomes inspired by ESEs undefeatable optimism and "We can do it!" attitude, for example.


    The opposite is true for the suggestive function. The suggestive function is unconscious, so we are blissfully unaware of how our weakness with this function negatively impacts us. Because of our ignorance with it we approach it with curiosity, like a young kid trying to learn more about the world. We accept instruction on how to use this function because we are always trying to learn more about it. When we see people using this function naturally through the demonstrative function it leaves us feeling inadequate because we want to understand how they are able to use it so skillfully yet they don't bother to teach us how to so. It kind of of feels like entering a new job where everybody else knows what to do but we are left uninstructed and twisting in the wind.

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    punctual
    oh god. this needs to die.

    Overall though, good post.

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    ^I actually debated whether or not to include that word but I decided to go ahead and include it because I didn't have any other better ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    ^I actually debated whether or not to include that word but I decided to go ahead and include it because I didn't have any other better ideas.
    I think it is true that LSEs like people who are punctual (along with those who follow all other conventional norms of etiquette) but i just don't think it has much to do with Ni. I think in its lowest dimensionality there is definitely a more clear relationship between Ni and time (Delta STs preparing for the future because of apocalypse and whatever else, and also getting flustered under time constraints-- could be more of an LSE thing but idk), but it comes along with a lot of other deficits that one can relate to Ni, such as a rigidity with abstract concepts/beliefs, an inability to handle the Ni-arguments of thinkers with opposed views, very basic associations on darkness, evil, the unknown, and whatever else, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    very basic associations on darkness, evil, the unknown, and whatever else, etc.
    I observed this aspect of Ni polr in my step-father who is LSE when he had a somewhat squeamish reaction to watching me play mortal kombat (9), which is a relatively dark game. To a causal observer without knowledge of socionics he would seem like a pretty tough dude who wouldn't be bothered by things such as violent video games- he hunts and skins dear, works long hours in a rough manufacturing job, has no problem confronting people when need be- yet here he is afraid of things I would laugh off as mere fantasy.

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    @Muddytextures

    Think of all Vital as being 1D, based only on the users experience, but used in ways related to their proper dimensionality. Mental functions will generally be used in relation to society. Vital functions will generally be used in reference to the individual's personal experiences over the course of life. Mental is called Social. Vital is called Individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Now lets look at polr and suggestive functions. The polr is conscious a function, so we are aware of this function and thus our deficiencies with it. When others verbalize this function and bring it to our attention this causes irritation because when already know what they are trying to say but we simply lack the innate, unconscious ability to make use of any of that information. However, it is a misconception that we want absolutely nothing to do the polr. Ni polrs will still seek someone who is imaginative and punctual, Ti polrs will still admire people with a strong sense of logic, Se polrs will still be attracted to motivated individuals, etc. We become comforted and even perhaps aroused when we see people skillfully using this function as if its no big deal. LII becomes inspired by ESEs undefeatable optimism and "We can do it!" attitude, for example.
    Well you are actually not supposed to be easily aware of issues with PoLR. I don't really relate to the idea of already knowing what others are trying to say with Ne. With Fi, possibly, a bit. Also, I'm more aware of Fi issues than Ne issues, in general. I get along with ESIs and EII-Fi's more than with EII-Ne's or IEEs, lol, tho ILE is ok usually too.


    The opposite is true for the suggestive function. The suggestive function is unconscious, so we are blissfully unaware of how our weakness with this function negatively impacts us. Because of our ignorance with it we approach it with curiosity, like a young kid trying to learn more about the world. We accept instruction on how to use this function because we are always trying to learn more about it. When we see people using this function naturally through the demonstrative function it leaves us feeling inadequate because we want to understand how they are able to use it so skillfully yet they don't bother to teach us how to so. It kind of of feels like entering a new job where everybody else knows what to do but we are left uninstructed and twisting in the wind.
    No I'm much more like this with Ni than with Fe. Ni is my HA and Fe is my DS. This idea on being blissfully unaware of the weaknesses also resembles HA more, also the willingness to approach it with curiosity and trying to learn about it more fits HA more in my opinion. Same for accepting instructions. With DS I'm more like, I'm usually not even looking for instructions or try to use it consciously, it's too unconscious for that. It's rare that I'd try to consciously learn about it (it's happened before though).

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    The perspective I take is that the demonstrative-base-creative dynamic involves the creative T asserting an independent complementary contribution of T's principle to base N, whereas the Te is more or less the aspects of T that remain under the dominant's sway--the perspective of Te doesn't matter to the ego, but the raw information may be instrumental in suggesting potential, namely with ILE, the extraverted attitude may show a greater breadth for the factuality of Te to suggest new potentials (through more associative conceptual connection building).

    The suggestive-base relationship has to do with both being rational or irrational, except on truly opposite poles of either axis.

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