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Thread: Model B

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    Default Model B

    I know all about it. Anyone have questions?

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    what's it all about?

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Yeah, go ahead...
    LII

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    In Model A, information goes clockwise from leading to creative to role to vulnerable, and counterclockwise from suggestive to mobilizing to observant to demonstrative. In Model B, this is only true for extroverts. Libido flow is reversed. Libido is energy exerted to receive information. For introverts, the Model A flow is Libido, and the reverse is for information.
    So...
    Model A Extrovert/Introvert: Information flow is Leading->Creative->Role->Vulnerable and Suggestive->Mobilizing->Observant->Demonstrative.
    Model B Extrovert: Information flow is Leading->Creative->Role->Vulnerable and Suggestive->Mobilizing->Observant->Demonstrative. Libido flow is Demonstrative->Observant->Mobilizing->Suggestive and Vulnerable->Role->Creative->Leading.
    Model B Introvert: Libido flow is Leading->Creative->Role->Vulnerable and Suggestive->Mobilizing->Observant->Demonstrative. Information flow is Demonstrative->Observant->Mobilizing->Suggestive and Vulnerable->Role->Creative->Leading.
    If you read Jung chapter 11, this is congruent with what he says for extroversion and introversion, as well as when applied to individual elements. Extroverted elements request information and receive information. Introverted elements receive information requests and supply information.
    On to polarities of functions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    On to polarities of functions?
    Yes, yes.

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    In Model B, polarities represent a few things.

    The first thing, is that polarity represents the blocked pair of the element. E.g., Ni- means that Ni is blocked with Fe, by default. No matter what the type or the function, if Ni is interacting with Fe, then Ni is negative and Fe is positive.

    The second thing is that each Superblock interacts in a circular manner. That is, if Fe is Leading and Ni is creative, then Fe is positive and Ni is negative, in THAT interaction. However, Ni also passes to Te, and, in such situation, Ni is positive, because it is interacting with Te. So, each elements polarity changes as it crosses to a different element. In this example, Ni may be negative by default in the Ego; however, it still passes to Te, in which case it is negative. Due to such, all aspects of polarity are covered within each type.

    Because the Ego and Super-id are preferred within each Quadra, the polarities are also preferred. Although each type exhibits all polarities, one for each element will always be preferred. Because Ni- is paired with Fe+, if Ni- is valued, then Ni+ will not be something this type focuses on nor places preference in.

    The polarities are equivalent to externalities and internalities. In Model B, externalities are dealt with at long psychological range, beyond immediate, direct, and closed contact. They apply to society at large. Internalities, on the other hand, exist at close psychological range, and typically are seen when in close contact with an individual. Leading is always an externality and Demonstrative is always an internality, so Leading is always long psychological distance and Demonstrative is always short psychological distance. Creative is always an internality and Observant is always an externality. Etc.

    Positive signs start out small and expand their influence, like planting new seeds. Negative signs start out large and constrict their influence, like removing weeds. E.g., EII starts with small social circle and plants new seeds for an expanding social circle, while ESI starts with large social circle and removes bad weeds for a constricting social circle.

    Other questions?
    Last edited by Jeremy8419; 12-02-2015 at 09:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    In Model B, polarities represent a few things.
    The first thing, is that polarity represents the blocked pair of the element. E.g., Ni- means that Ni is blocked with Fe, by default. No matter what the type or the function, if Ni is interacting with Fe, then Ni is negative and Fe is positive.
    The second thing is that each Superblock interacts in a circular manner. That is, if Fe is Leading and Ni is creative, then Fe is positive and Ni is negative, in THAT interaction. However, Ni also passes to Te, and, in such situation, Ni is positive, because it is interacting with Te. So, each elements polarity changes as it crosses to a different element. In this example, Ni may be negative by default in the Ego; however, it still passes to Te, in which case it is negative. Due to such, all aspects of polarity are covered within each type.
    ?
    Why is Ni negative with Fe, but positive with Te? Is there any reason for that, or is it just arbitrary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacha View Post
    Why is Ni negative with Fe, but positive with Te? Is there any reason for that, or is it just arbitrary?
    Well, for one, it gives a cohesive base definition for polarities. For two, the polarities are all the classical definitions of polarities. When Ni is interacting with Fe, Ni is distant, long range, and contracting, and Fe is local, close range, and expansive. So, when wanting to narrow down, or hone in, on a specific forecast of many and weed out the rest (Ni-), one will utilize emotions in an expanding manner for such, or vice-versa if the block order is reversed. When utilizing Te with Ni, the Ni is then the local, close range, and expansive one, while the Te is the distant, long range, and expansive one.

    In example, IEI weeds away negative consequences and futures for the self by utilizing emotional control, taking both positive and negative futures into account for the self and others. LIE uses visions of a positive future to create a specific Te outcome. Due to only having the positive aspects of Ni, the LIE often gets into situations which are primarily a gamble devoid of attention to negative futures.

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    How interesting. Mind making descriptions for introverts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    How interesting. Mind making descriptions for introverts?
    In what regards? The type descriptions don't change, because the types don't change. Model B is simply more thorough than Model A and addresses parts of Jung that Model A did not. I can give type descriptions from Russia that aren't commonly seen, or post the original polarities descriptions (though I think they are already on here), or post the translated Model B articles.

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    Original article translations links. If someone wants to repost them in a thread on here, be my guest. I don't feel like going through the hassle.

    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...im-socion.html

    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...s-model-b.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    LIE uses visions of a positive future to create a specific Te outcome. Due to only having the positive aspects of Ni, the LIE often gets into situations which are primarily a gamble devoid of attention to negative futures.
    How is the Ni acting locally in this case? I understand the dichotomy of positive versus negative but I don't see how Ni is being local and expansive...

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    I believe the phrase is breadth versus depth. - starts with breadth and goes into depth. + starts with depth and goes into breadth. Overall, all of socionics is a system of positives and negatives, everything going from one to the other, like a wave. Even in duals, the two alternate back and forth, until they resonate and lose distinguishment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimu View Post
    what's it all about?
    another fantasy without experimental and strong logical basis. you may create 10 such models per day, unfortunally quantity of letters is limited
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    another fantasy without experimental and strong logical basis. you may create 10 such models per day, unfortunally quantity of letters is limited
    Well, the amount of possible combinations of letters is literally endless (if not restricting to any number of characters). One could create a hypothetical system that uses a complete description of the universe to describe the state of one individual. That would be kinda accurate and has a logical basis

    So I call bullshit on the restriction of limited amount of letters, start creating those 10 models a day! ;-)

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    Sol, you didn't even know what Model B was lol

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    Well, that's interesting. It almost justifies MBTI swapping the functions by implying p == P, at least mathematically, despite that they both interpret the functions differently.

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    So anyway, what's the difference between "libido flow" and "information processing" as it pertains to model B?

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    @Reactance

    Well, the second article doesn't really imply that they are equal, but does directly state they most closely correlate as such, rather than the other way around. In general, Socionics treats it as such when comparing the two, though most prefer not to compare at all. Someone simply took some very heavy liberties on the Wikipedia article and it was popularized in the West, while being contradictory to the views of mainstream Socionics.

    Socionics, and especially Model B, treat Leading as being the primary conscious element in regards to the external world, while MBTI, per Myers-Briggs own statements, does so only for the extrovert, and places Auxiliary in this role for the introvert, as spoken of in the second article.

    This is an image I made for introverts Model B. I should point out, though, that there is differing terminology between the first and second article, with the first referencing the shadow, and the second referencing libido. I had to logic-through multiple scenarios to reach a model diagram that allow both to simultaneously exist. The shadow in article could be the same thing as the libido flow in my diagram or simply be his chosen terminology for vital Superblock in that article, or it could be the "flip side of the coin" that is our internal dual that sometimes manifests itself, or it could be just a reiteration of cross-block.

    Attachment 6755

    Model B rectifies lapses in Model A compared to Jung with logical consistency. All extroverted elements in Mental Superblock are Libido Transmitters, that exert energy to receive information, and Information Receivers. All introverted elements in Mental Superblock are Libido Receivers, that energy is imposed on to transmit information, and Information Transmitters. E.g., Se leads exert Force to receive Laws or Relations, either from themselves or others. Due to the nature of Mental versus Vital, it is implied that extroverted/introverted elements roles are reversed in Vital. E.g., Ne in Ego may be libido exerted for Relationships or Laws information, but in the Id, it would be Libido acceptance to supply information; that is, Mental is generally what we consciously "put out" to the world, and Vital is generally what we unconsciously take in from the world. (so basically a polar switch for E/I elements over conscious/unconscious line)

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    very good explanations, much thanks... what about subtypes though?

    All of this seems to me like a hyper labeling of the quadra values, the difference from the -/+ within the same element is only reduced to what the quadra makes of it... hm..

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    Other question, aren't polarities supposed to be combined with each others? From Model B we get duals who have the same positive or negative sign, but shouldn't they be complimentary?

    I've been wondering about this for a while and I think we should invert some intrinsic socionic order though..

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