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Thread: Is ISFj similar to ESFp in romance behavior?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Is ISFj similar to ESFp in romance behavior?

    I was recently reading a "shocking" description of SEEs romantic behavior, in a case where society woudl frown at SEE, but seen from SEEs point of view, might actually make sense. It was from here, and this romance was described thus:

    For example, a young woman SEE has brought up a story from her personal life for public discussion, which involved fighting off her current husband from his lawful wife and thus destroying their marriage. She felt the necessity to do so because from the very first meeting she understood that this man is fated for her. This meeting took place about half a year before his marriage, when he first met his first wife. So why hasn't she started a relationship with him back then? It turned out that it was from this moment that she started building her strategy of getting close to him (SEE is a strategic type), and part of this strategy was allowing him to marry another woman.

    Couldn't she lose him by allowing him to enter another relationship, to form strong bonds with someone else, or at least create insurmountable obstacles for herself? Let me remind the reader that other people's established personal and social ties do not hold significance for this dyad. It was precisely for such newly emergent obstacles that this whole strategy was created. To complicate the situation even further, she started dating a close friend of the man she has "chosen" and kept resorting to this "tactic" all the way until his wedding day. It was only after the day of his marriage that she decided to take action. At this point she started looking for any chances and opportunities to meet with him, to establish a close and trusting relationship with him, and to make the most favorable impression of herself. She was constantly searching for ways to advantageously distinguish herself from his current wife and make herself look as the "winning" opposite to her in everything. In her own words, this is how it went:

    "I've always tried to distinguish myself from her in the most beneficial to myself ways. Even at a wedding when the bride was dressed in all white, I came in a spectacular black dress. As soon as I arrived, other guests at the wedding started asking one another: "Who is she?" His friends and relatives came up to me and said, "Oh, what a pity that you aren't by the side of the groom. You are so beautiful!" And then I again thought to myself that he must be made my husband."

    Since that day, such "winning contrast" became the main behavioral style of this young SEE woman. When after half a year the young husband realized that all her efforts were directed at him, he was able to appreciate this and divorced his wife to marry this woman. That's how easily she has attained her success.

    So why invest all these efforts? Why didn't she start dating this man when he was still single? Why did she allow him to marry another woman at first? Why did she start seeing one of his friends if she already knew that she was going to leave him? This is what the public did not understand and condemned her for this. Meanwhile she even took offense at the public censure (isn't it a pity that her strategy wasn't appreciated?), since she invested all this effort exactly so that she would be correctly appreciated, such that assessing her actions her partner would develop certain feelings that would correspond to her priorities and that would allow the relationship to take forms that she was most comfortable with.

    Obstacles in this case were necessary in order to overcome them, as this is the necessary and indispensable condition for dualization in this dyad. Let's not forget that in the third quadra, just as well as in all democratic quadras, evolutionary irrational aspects (with a "+" sign) dominate. In particular, the third quadra is dominated by the aspect of volitional sensing (+Se) – the aspect that accumulates and mobilizes forces for the following contention, for a forceful and massive breakthrough, for overcoming of the obstacles.

    3. SEE. The program of the onslaught and overcoming.

    In the third quadra, and especially the dyad SEE-ILI, the ability to show one's own willful superiority, to demonstrate one's advantages in power and capability, to favorably present one's own qualities, to persistently broadcast one's will to contend, to impose this on others and come out on top, that is, to use any and all opportunities to demonstrate your ability and willingness to get out of any situation as the prizewinner (even if it earns everyone else's condemnation) are all valued.

    How is it possible to show one's will, determination, drive, if there are no obstacles? If there are no obstacles - there is nothing to overcome. And if there is nothing to overcome, then there are no opportunities to interest your partner, and other people, in yourself.

    However, in our previous example, the man has preferred another woman at first. Why would this be? Most likely because she has shown considerable initiative in winning him over at first, while our SEE heroine got busy creating new obstacles for herself by starting a relationship with his friend. When our SEE heroine entered the scene in the role of contender, a major opportunity opened up before her to show in full that she is capable and determined - to get out of her situation and break up another's relationship would require much effort than her competition had the opportunity to demonstrate. By creating all these obstacles, she has seized a major opportunity to prove that she is "stronger than the strongest".

    Unfortunately, the "audience" did not understand this SEE woman and appreciate her "heroic feat" for its true worth, despite the fact that she was absolutely certain in her own right to so forcefully achieve her happiness. "The strongest wins and the strongest leads away" – such was the conclusion of our SEE heroine who felt quite offended by the fact that nobody else has supported her in this opinion.

    Doesn't she feel ashamed of such attitudes? The person is typically not ashamed of the values of his EGO functions. What feels shameful is departure or deviation from these values. Thus the SEE may feel ashamed if she has demonstrated weakness, or if she wasn't able to seize an opportunity and come out as a winner in this situation. But when SEE is showing his strengths and capabilities, he or she is not betraying his main values.

    And for this purpose the SEE allows herself to take away what belongs to someone else? If what belongs to someone else is better than what SEE has, and if it is already gravitating towards her, the SEE considers that she is simply taking what is rightfully hers. In the realm of human relations, first the SEE feels that she is a more suitable partner for somebody else than their current partner. Later, if she does indeed turn out to be stronger than her competition, this indicates that she will be able to do more for her partner than his previous match, and therefore her love is stronger.

    Piling up of obstacles could be called a kind of "courting ritual" of this dyad, or, more accurately, a part of the interplay of their dual relations. Our SEE protagonist might not have been so successful in her endeavors if it wasn't for the fact that her choice fell to a man of sociotype ILI, suggestive in Se and therefore is easily persuaded by her actions on this aspect. If this SEE woman would have tried win over a partner of some other sociotype, perhaps her strategy would not have worked so quickly and successfully. Although, if the will is there, SEEs are capable of breaking up almost any relationship. It is difficult to endure and counteract their onslaught and determination. The author knows of several stories where well-established dual relationships have been broken up by a SEE who couldn't calmly live in presence of someone else's happiness.

    SEE is not always consciously aware of the full impact that his EGO functions have on the people and environment around him. He can strongly influence others without noticing this himself and without actually wishing to cause any harm – he simply strongly wants to achieve something, to win someone over, to attain something for himself. The more the person resists – the more the SEE intensifies his efforts. In our example, the man hasn't put up much of a resistance so our SEE had to create obstacles of her own – allow him to marry another woman and start another relationship herself. Since all of this possibly transpired with his silent agreement, it can be even said that it was both of them who have created these barriers.
    Well, in Delta, and probably the other Quadra's, we'd just say this is not okay - you don't plan a take-over of another person's spouse. As an IEE, this is an interesting explanation of what a person who does this might be thinking. And, if the SEE did the very same thing without waiting for the SEE to marry someone else before she moved in on him, then i would say it might be admirably interesting what she did.

    It made me wonder, would an ESI be similarly motivated when they played such a take-over?

    Because my marraige, sort of, ended with such a "takeover" by an ESI. At least in her mind, I would say. I saw the entire romance play out after the fact, when I found the huge archive of emails documenting the whole tawdry affair, so I know exactly how it played out. And I am not one to pry - I stumbled on this and then of course I had a right to know the facts behind this giant coming shift in my life - the shocking new fact that my ex was secretly planning a divorce. And by God's grace, I got to see exactly how we got to that fact, instead of the elaborate falsehood my ex was planning to mislead me with instead.

    This is an old story, the painful shock and surprise is long since over, and, as my priest said at the time, "the other woman did you a favor." Yes, she sure did. And I am happily married now. My question is not for any emotional resolve, at all; its just to get at the Socionics understanding of the motivation from the ESI paramour's position. An intellectual curiosity.

    I totally get my ESE ex, and also his Narcissist's motivation, as well as the key shift that occurred in our (sad) relationship just before the affair, when I, with the help of a counselor, began to effectively and simply stand up to all verbal abuse from him, which was a shift that created a major crisis to him, as it stole from him a prime dependable, long-term source of vital Narcissist Supply. So I get it all about him, and I get it about our marriage (now deemed forever on earth, and in Heaven, as "Not a Marraige" by the Catholic Marriage Tribunal).

    All I know I know of the ESI is through her giant affair-correspondence with my ex, and also the long talks with her husband at the time. Which is quite a bit, I guess. I never had any confrontation with her at any time, as it seemed pointless. And one way I saw it as she was too beneath me, and since I knew where she was coming from, she wasn't worth my words. That's not humble, but in the circumstances, reasonable, IMO. Or just, the old adage applies: "If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

    When I read the above story of the machinations of a SEE, I thought, yes - I perceived in her, in EACH of the brief times we met, a "spirit of competition". Of winning, as described above.

    The first time was while we were married and ex wanted to attend a "Big Chill" sort of get together with old high school friends at one of their friends lakeside cottage. I protested; I wanted us to go too. He protested, other spouses weren't coming, and to convince me to come to the start of their weekend to meet everyone (two of the guys I knew - they were in our wedding!). That's when I first met her, who was already sending us her son's used clothes, being 3 years older. It was kind of a burden to store since they were always to big for him' also her son wore "husky" and my son did not). I had my son attached to me on a sling, and I took time to sit aside an nurse him on a couple of occasions. I talked with everyone, and the hardest to know was the ESI. So I take time with people who are hard to know, and got her to chat a bit. But she was cool, I perceived, and the hardest to like of the lot. I remembered I found a couple of things to compliment her on, to relax her a bit, and she accepted the compliments, and offered none in return.

    Of course I did not know she was to factor as the major player in the most difficult shift in my life. The following year was the next annual Big Chill weekend and the start of the silly romance that was what my ex constructed to jump from our marraige into. And she thinks it was all about her, I am sure, but she does not know that while kindling this, he also was fishing all over he place, online dating and contacting with other past girlfriends he was flirting with, evidently in case the ESI one didn't work out (she was married, after all). Knowing she did not know that for most of their "great romance" where she appeared to be the "one and only" he was flirting elsewhere tempted me to share that with her. But I reverted to what seemed more right - ignore her completely.

    So, I met her that once, and then very shortly after he prolonged divorce and custody battle completely and he moved to her home hundreds of miles away, his father died, and there was a funeral Mass, and as I had called him "Dad" so many years, and there was to be a funeral Mass, I went. After the Mass was the burial, and I moved forward to stand at the grave to pray, and she stood near, left of me. I don't remember who was there first, but I was focused on prayer and it was not to be for a long time. But I remember from the side of my eyes seeing ex approaching and taking a stand to the right and in front of me, and then saying, "'ESI'! Come here!", twice, so she then "obeyed" walking - rudely - in front of me to get to his side for a snuggle (between the grave and me there was not much room.

    I know my ex had something to do with that bit of stupid drama but she complied, and she would not have been ignorant of the insult of it.

    Lastly, a year later maybe, she and he came to pick up our son for a bay side cottage weekend with the same old bunch. And I helped our son put things in the trunk, and I thought, "Why ignore her? She is a part of our life", so as I walked by her window, I said, "Hi, 'ESI'". She immediately got out to help, but I saw in those brief seconds/minutes that she was sort of sashshaying about, in and affected way, tossing her hair, moving her jangly bracelets, and yes, she had had a recent pedicure and manicure and clearly spent time with her hair, none of which I had, as my life had gotten very practical and basic, and it hadn't occurred to me to gussy up for a showdown, and clearly she saw it that way. And after this I decided I will continue with ignore, since she thinks my attempts at civility are an occasion for competition. Or at least I will remeber she will see any future run-ins in this way.

    Then I read the above SE story, and think, I believe she started checking me out way back when, at that first meeting, when I had a baby attached to me, looking much like a country wife I guess, and she was in her "I'm back in high school" mode, with her high school friends, her kids more grown and not needing her like my baby did then and would for a few more years, and she thought, "I can win this." Which is why my compliments to her got a simple "Yeah, I know" in her mind, and not a "I see things I like about you, too."....

    So, being not so Gamma knowledgeable, I wonder, is this SEE behavior, this need to win over others, come out the best, on top, something that applies to ESI, too?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    lump's Avatar
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    That story is appalling and while it can be framed within the context of gamma values i really don't think it's typical behavior or that gamma sfs are especially prone to infidelity.

    I don't want to just dismiss this with a defensive response but I'm short on time right now. I can try to think of how to flesh out the way fi+se might approach relationships and competitiveness later.

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    TL;DR

    Just skimmed through it, but from what I read, that's absolutely disgusting and it sounds like they're trying to use Socionics to justify their actions.


    B e a u t i f u l S i l e n c e ・ 。☆・

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    well, i'll just say what i think and you or someone else can decide if my musings on this are representative enough of ESIs in general or not.

    the thought of "stealing" a man who is in a relationship is unthinkable to me. aside from morals, if theres someone that i want to be with, then the thought of them being with someone else provokes a negative emotional reaction that i can't imagine willingly exposing myself to repeatedly. the idea of competing for a man isn't some kind of exciting challenge to me because its about the connection between me and him - another woman being in the picture is an obstruction and not one i'm willing to take on and overcome. if he's interested in another woman, i'd rather not interfere with it at all because if he was right for me the choice would already be obvious to him and there would be no competition at all.

    i don't know if that addresses your question?

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    maybe i took this too seriously and i should have just said "this is all ridiculous" but that repertoire gets boring.

    but...it is kind of ridiculous. Stratiyevskaya tho

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    well, i'll just say what i think and you or someone else can decide if my musings on this are representative enough of ESIs in general or not.

    the thought of "stealing" a man who is in a relationship is unthinkable to me. aside from morals, if there's someone that i want to be with, then the thought of them being with someone else provokes a negative emotional reaction that i can't imagine willingly exposing myself to repeatedly. the idea of competing for a man isn't some kind of exciting challenge to me because its about the connection between me and him - another woman being in the picture is an obstruction and not one i'm willing to take on and overcome. if he's interested in another woman, i'd rather not interfere with it at all because if he was right for me the choice would already be obvious to him and there would be no competition at all.

    i don't know if that addresses your question?
    Well, first, please note that the quote from the Stratiyevskaya story is about a SEE woman's experience, not an ESI.

    I think it was Stratiyevskaya or maybe another Socionics author that has written some pretty steamy stories about at least one real life IEE sleeping all over the place, jumping from one lover to the next, while married. Also I cannot relate to that. [And one could argue that those are IEE sx/so's like me! ] Perhaps the folks that Stratiyevskaya has in his circle are far removed from Judeo-Christian morality. Or something. For me, being IEE and sx-first includes being extremely picky how I am going to hook up, and who with (husband -> that's the limit) and like other IEEs and sx-firsts I know, I am pretty strong and committed to sticking to exactly what I have decided on as far as being right and moral in that department. Also leading-on another's husband or boyfriend is an offense that I have always taken personal responsibility for, so, I need to make matters clear and/or stay away in order to not encourage if such a situation develops (which was a problem more often in my younger years; also, I think sx-firsts can give off impressions they do not intend).

    So you and I are of like-mind about other people's spouses and lovers. It helps that I grew up with values like that, and formed such values young. But suppose you grew up without that value, and on top of that, absorbed the strident cultural moral that if it feels good, if it makes you happy, then its okay. In that case, if that was my experience, I can imagine myself being like the descriptions of some IEEs, or like that IEE wife described in that article I read somewhere here, welcoming all kinds of people in my home, going from one lover to another, for the delight of the experience, since I would not be violating my own moral.

    But its just not in my nature to compete for other woman's men by scheming to appear as a "better catch" like the SEE woman in the story. Its easy enough to find others interested in relating-experiences without having the unwelcome drama (and guilt) of going someone's someone!

    So maybe then its safe to say that these are both stories that tell how IEE and SEE would act without the morality and values that you and I share.

    So, I wonder how ESIs might act romance-wise without that morality you have. The ESI I knew in the story above did have a sense of competition, "I want to be the superior". I know that; I just don't understand where in the psyche it comes from. I know from what her husband told me that this ESI's mother had about 4 marriages, each sort of climbing the ladder socially. The one she was in when her daughter knew my ex in high school (when I had not yet met him), was her mother had just moved to that town to marry a doctor, and live in a nice section of town, and this ESI hung out with the in-crowd my ex was in. But that marriage lasted about 5 years, maybe in state (location) they ended up. To grow up with that example of normalcy, and for the marriages to have seemed to be beneficial to her mother - that might likely has something to do with her moral formation, that would make it okay to pursue someone else's husband when you are married (to a nice man!). (A good, nice, honest, devoted man. My ex: charming, can play the romance game, truly believes he is exceptional and can make you believe it).

    So I guess I made a big mistake here not remembering the IEE stories, and not putting Stratiyevskaya's SEE story in perspective. Because my husband's SEE daughter would not be scheming after someone else's husband. And the SEE who used to care for my Mom, though she was single and seeking a husband for some years, would not have set her sights on someone else's husband. So while Stratiyevskaya had a good psyche evaluation of that particular SEEs motives, he left out that the reason why so many were appalled by her behavior is because MOST people, SEEs included, would say she seriously crossed the lines of morality that most people hold.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I think an ESI is equally capable as an SEE in "Hijacking" a relationship, however the difference between them is ESI would require some kind of moral justification for doing so and they would never intentionally set up such as situation like an SEE would. Remember, asserting power comes first for SEE while relationships are more of tool, while relationships come first for ESI and power second. AKA an SEE wouldn't put their power at risk for maintaining relationships, and an ESI wouldn't put their relationships at risk for acquiring power.

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    That sux. I can empathize with being scorned. It really hurts.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I think an ESI is equally capable as an SEE in "Hijacking" a relationship, however the difference between them is ESI would require some kind of moral justification for doing so and they would never intentionally set up such as situation like an SEE would. Remember, asserting power comes first for SEE while relationships are more of tool, while relationships come first for ESI and power second. AKA an SEE wouldn't put their power at risk for maintaining relationships, and an ESI wouldn't put their relationships at risk for acquiring power.
    Interesting. The "moral justification" for her may have simply been "her happiness". It seems she had a good marriage (she did not complain once about her husband in any of her very many emails to my husband, and her surprised ex told me it was a happy marriage). Likely it just wasn't romantically amazing. From the books she read during the affair (which she asked my husband to read, while, at home, she had her husband read them aloud to her in bed) - Bridges of Madison County, the Notebook - she may have thought that there was a moral high ground to romantic love that even surpassed a breach of marriage.

    Another moral justification His "story" about me when he prepared to leave was to tell everyone I was "crazy", (including his lawyer, so, psych evaluations for all) . And he said of himself "I can make anyone believe anything I want them to believe". So, yes - morally she was saving him from a crazy woman and awarding a deserving, beleaguered man the true love he deserved, with a normal woman. Perhaps even superior! Yes, so the moral justification would be there.

    So, yes - she had grounds for a moral justification, especially because of what my ex wanted her to believe, and had the power to make her believe: He was an innocent man stuck in a sad marriage with a crazy woman, and he needed the love (and commitment) of a woman like her...

    Actually, unexpectedly, its helping me to think her motivation through. I have never taken it this far before. This is much better, more true, than thinking of her as just "not my class of person". And the truth sets you free... and I would like to be free of dislike of her (and free of even of feeling superior to her). I already do pray for her and her family, as a priest advised me, and that helps take the edge off the dislike. I found it was easier (not easy - just easier) to forgive and forget my ex, because I thoroughly understand his issues, my own foolish cooperations, and the realities of our "marraige". But understanding where his paramour was coming from - very influenced by my ex, primed by society and her background - which I also was, in my own way - helps a great deal. So thanks, Muddytextures, for the reply, which was good food for thought.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    ... Remember, asserting power comes first for SEE while relationships are more of tool, while relationships come first for ESI and power second. AKA an SEE wouldn't put their power at risk for maintaining relationships, and an ESI wouldn't put their relationships at risk for acquiring power.
    Thinking more about the second part of what you said, here. Thanks for explaining the difference in motivations for SEE and ESI; its part of what I was trying to understand. In this case I think the ESI did have second thoughts about exploding her family; I saw it where towards the end of the giant email archive, when her husband, the first to discover the affair and their plans to leave their marriages, pleaded with her, and she told my husband about this, saying only, "I'm confused" - like a cry for help - like: "help me out of this mess we got in", and my ex did NOT help, instead, he aggressively upped the pressure, bombarding her with emails complimenting her for "sticking with me!" and "being so brave!" and links to love songs. So, yes, her main motivation was not power, but the promise of the great romance. (my glimpse of her power-interest must have been a glimpse of her "second goal")...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I'm instantly repulsed by anyone who is in a relationship and tries to start a flame elsewhere. They will likely do the same to anyone they date (including me). I prefer to be alone than to be in an unfulfilling relationship. Also-- I do not like to share the person I am with.

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    ^I can emphatically say: me neither!
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    From my personal experience, an ESI I know very well(who was in a relationship at the time) had an affair with a married man who she had a crush on ONLY after the married man confessed to liking her(4 years of chatting prior to affair). She considered this opportunity as kind of ego trip as in she must be better than his wife, the idea of having this married older man was a big turn on. ESI in this situation did not want to ruin this mans relationship, nor did she even want to know anything about his wife as she said it would make her feel guilty. It was purely for her own pleasure. From my understanding ESI would not plan to disrupt a marriage and does not think in terms of making things happen. She was busted by her boyfriend eventually and it ended. I don't think ESI cared that she had the affair, nor does she regret it, the only thing she regrets was hurting her boyfriend.

    I would also like to say not all ESI will be cool with doing something like this, i'm sure many will think this is disgusting behavior. Some don't really consider monogamy as "fair" either.

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    @Eliza Thomason wow that must've been hard for you. The ESI is much like the SEE given that they are mirrors and it is a pitfall I think Gamma SF types might fall into if they aren't careful. They got in the ego block like you do, but that damned irrational function just doesn't like you in the slightest. Aggressors don't much like caregivers, just like victims don't much like infantiles and vice-versa.

    Thus, the "conqueror" may feel justified in taking the mate of another only to find out that their conquest is devoid of the qualities they envisioned it having in the end ( ain't the same as , which is what they really wanted out of the deal). Like how a prince may conquer a province they believe is filled with gold when instead it is filled with pyrite (i.e. Fools Gold). They, and their subjects in turn, won't be happy about this but now that ya did it you're, well, kinda stuck holding the bag...

    Seriously, interpersonal relationships are pretty much as complicated as global politics. Which makes sense in the end, once you realize it's all a big game and that there is no escaping the playing of it. We're trapped at court, learn the rules fast because this game is unavoidably played for keeps sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Eliza Thomason wow that must've been hard for you. The ESI is much like the SEE given that they are mirrors and it is a pitfall I think Gamma SF types might fall into if they aren't careful. They got in the ego block like you do, but that damned irrational function just doesn't like you in the slightest. Aggressors don't much like caregivers, just like victims don't much like infantiles and vice-versa.

    Thus, the "conqueror" may feel justified in taking the mate of another only to find out that their conquest is devoid of the qualities they envisioned it having in the end ( ain't the same as , which is what they really wanted out of the deal). Like how a prince may conquer a province they believe is filled with gold when instead it is filled with pyrite (i.e. Fools Gold). They, and their subjects in turn, won't be happy about this but now that ya did it you're, well, kinda stuck holding the bag...

    Seriously, interpersonal relationships are pretty much as complicated as global politics. Which makes sense in the end, once you realize it's all a big game and that there is no escaping the playing of it. We're trapped at court, learn the rules fast because this game is unavoidably played for keeps sadly.
    These are really interesting and useful comments. I will want to comment more later when I can. But, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Eliza Thomason wow that must've been hard for you. The ESI is much like the SEE given that they are mirrors and it is a pitfall I think Gamma SF types might fall into if they aren't careful. They got in the ego block like you do, but that damned irrational function just doesn't like you in the slightest. Aggressors don't much like caregivers, just like victims don't much like infantiles and vice-versa.

    Thus, the "conqueror" may feel justified in taking the mate of another only to find out that their conquest is devoid of the qualities they envisioned it having in the end ( ain't the same as , which is what they really wanted out of the deal). Like how a prince may conquer a province they believe is filled with gold when instead it is filled with pyrite (i.e. Fools Gold). They, and their subjects in turn, won't be happy about this but now that ya did it you're, well, kinda stuck holding the bag...

    Seriously, interpersonal relationships are pretty much as complicated as global politics. Which makes sense in the end, once you realize it's all a big game and that there is no escaping the playing of it. We're trapped at court, learn the rules fast because this game is unavoidably played for keeps sadly.
    I know an ESI who kept flirting with married men for this reason. I thought it was peculiar but I was not a friend so I didn't contribute my moral opinion. Though I did judge it as inappropriate but that's only because I would condone such behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I know an ESI who kept flirting with married men for this reason. I thought it was peculiar but I was not a friend so I didn't contribute my moral opinion. Though I did judge it as inappropriate but that's only because I would condone such behavior.
    I'd think you wouldn't condone such behavior but it is an thing. Alien sentiments flourish in that arena. can't really be explained to those who don't know it. I'm a very logical creature yet there are things I just won't accept no matter how much anyone tries to make me do so. I think it's a result of my functions. (creative) is a bulldozer, flattening all that stands in its path. (motivating) is the protester lying down in front of it, daring the crew of said bulldozer to kill them in cold blood in the hopes that they will realize their humanity and stop.

    I prefer the naturally, but I can't help but root for the protester. They should stop, if only because that if they pancake that protester they'll become a martyr and, as Soren Kirkegaard so eloquently noted, when a martyr dies their rule begins. Tyrants die, but martyrs live forever. @Eliza Thomason, I think we both know who the ultimate martyr was. They nailed him to a stick. Boy I bet they wished they hadn't have done that in hindsight .
    Last edited by End; 01-20-2016 at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Eliza Thomason wow that must've been hard for you. The ESI is much like the SEE given that they are mirrors and it is a pitfall I think Gamma SF types might fall into if they aren't careful. They got in the ego block like you do, but that damned irrational function just doesn't like you in the slightest. Aggressors don't much like caregivers, just like victims don't much like infantiles and vice-versa.

    Thus, the "conqueror" may feel justified in taking the mate of another only to find out that their conquest is devoid of the qualities they envisioned it having in the end ( ain't the same as , which is what they really wanted out of the deal). Like how a prince may conquer a province they believe is filled with gold when instead it is filled with pyrite (i.e. Fools Gold). They, and their subjects in turn, won't be happy about this but now that ya did it you're, well, kinda stuck holding the bag...

    Seriously, interpersonal relationships are pretty much as complicated as global politics. Which makes sense in the end, once you realize it's all a big game and that there is no escaping the playing of it. We're trapped at court, learn the rules fast because this game is unavoidably played for keeps sadly.
    Very true. I don't conquer anyone and the qualities of envisioning are not there for me. I often just roll with what is there for me and work from there. For instance I'll choose someone based on fate and meant to be. Like I know I met my boyfriend because it is meant to be and we're together because both of us want that and asked it from each other. So we are in it together and pave a road ahead together and don't imagine or consider qualities within one another from the beginning. I just figure that all people are fairly decent human beings with slight variation in personal experiences. I have great hope that people can overcome whatever situations or grow in loving environments and people change. They change based on what they experience or feel. To conquer someone or have a predisposed idea of qualities when they don't know them thus further driving their desire to conquer is not right though I see what you mean that it's only a goal and objective not subject to judgement of right or wrong type of thinking. In any case I have experienced that personally with SEE who is dead set about this one LSE; the conquer part is over and the high of the seduction game is settling. We'll see how it goes. She was certainly much more persistent than I would have been and much more "keep an eye on the prize." Where I just would have went about my work and kept to myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I'd think you wouldn't condone such behavior but it is an thing. Alien sentiments flourish in that arena. can't really be explained to those who don't know it. I'm a very logical creature yet there are things I just won't accept no matter how much anyone tries to make me do so. I think it's a result of my functions. (creative) is a bulldozer, flattening all that stands in its path. (motivating) is the protester lying down in front of it, daring the crew of said bulldozer to kill them in cold blood in the hopes that they will realize their humanity and stop.

    I prefer the naturally, but I can't help but root for the protester. They should stop, if only because that if they pancake that protester they'll become a martyr and, as Soren Kirkegaard so eloquently noted, when a martyr dies their rule begins. Tyrants die, but martyrs live forever. @Eliza Thomason, I think we both know who the ultimate martyr was. They nailed him to a stick. Boy I bet they wished they hadn't have done that in hindsight .
    Yes I would. If I were a friend I would tell her outright that what she was doing was mean because she was stepping or putting a wedge in a relationship that's not her place. I would tell her that she's acting immature and inconsiderate and she needs to step back and consider the ramifications of her actions not only for that couple but also for herself. It is great show of one's character to act without such restraint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I have great hope that people can overcome whatever situations or grow in loving environments and people change.
    One of the problems - different people need different "loving" environments. For example, Fe types like you have no idea what is love and ethics in understanding of Te/Fi types and such your "love" would be useless or destructive for them.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    One of the problems - different people need different "loving" environments. For example, Fe types like you have no idea what is love and ethics in understanding of Te/Fi types and such your "love" would be useless or destructive for them.
    I asked you to please ignore me.

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    without having read the whole thread or first post, I'd say that presenting myself as a conqueror to attract someone sounds like too much work and pretty futile
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinoche View Post
    without having read the whole thread or first post, I'd say that presenting myself as a conqueror to attract someone sounds like too much work and pretty futile
    I don't think it is presenting oneself as a conqueror but acting like it

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    We're acting like we're presenting ourselves as conquerors to attract someone? Wouldn't that still be a lot of work to get the attention of a female?

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    Interesting.....

    You can't steal someone unless they are open to be stolen.

    Now, I have never stolen a mate away from his love, at least not on purpose.

    I just see it as people choosing the best option for them at the time. Why go through your entire life stuck with someone you don't like anymore because you made a promise to them a decade ago? You have a right to find your happy place, just as they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotSauce View Post
    Interesting.....

    You can't steal someone unless they are open to be stolen.

    Now, I have never stolen a mate away from his love, at least not on purpose.

    I just see it as people choosing the best option for them at the time. Why go through your entire life stuck with someone you don't like anymore because you made a promise to them a decade ago? You have a right to find your happy place, just as they do.
    Oh absolutely. However...ending things when you're unhappy is a pretty decent option.

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    i really hope not? that seems like a ridiculous thing to attribute to type. maybe there is a correlation but, to me, that's right fucked up.

    i transferred classes after finding out that a female friend of mine had a crush on our male friend because he told me he had a crush on me but i couldn't tell her about it because both friends swore me to secrecy, and that's not even cheating. there are guys out there i wouldn't even consider befriending (aside from a base level of neutrality/kindness) simply because they were previously involved with a friend of mine. so even just the idea of going after someone who's already spoken for is a big fucking no in my books, like i wouldn't touch that shit with a ten foot pole. cheating is the one thing i could never partake in or forgive, even just hearing about it makes my skin crawl, because how are you such a spineless coward?

    so nah, me no bueno. at all.
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    Interesting, even if Eliza seems to have an eye for most sensational stories lol.

    Well, according to some socionics sources, it is actually the dynamic type that starts things and I'd be willing to go for that. I don't know in what specific ways however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I don't know in what specific ways however.
    Ehh TMI
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    In LIE ESI dyad, LIE is the strategist and I myself have unconsciously and automatically had some strategies to get close to ESIs (not in the way it was described in the description but as a friend even) and since I have weak Fe and Fi, I need to impress them intellectually, in a way the ESI wouldn't find it boastful. But the romantic/erotic side of the relationship is like LIE drops hints of interest and ESI lets us get closer if they feel the same way, and then it becomes two sided, but if it is not reciprocal the ESI distances themself for a while or ignores the hints of interest LIE has dropped. We drop hints, and wait to see if they pick it up
    But then again I am talking from my experience as a female LIE and male ESI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    In LIE ESI dyad, LIE is the strategist and I myself have unconsciously and automatically had some strategies to get close to ESIs (not in the way it was described in the description but as a friend even) and since I have weak Fe and Fi, I need to impress them intellectually, in a way the ESI wouldn't find it boastful. But the romantic/erotic side of the relationship is like LIE drops hints of interest and ESI lets us get closer if they feel the same way, and then it becomes two sided, but if it is not reciprocal the ESI distances themself for a while or ignores the hints of interest LIE has dropped. We drop hints, and wait to see if they pick it up
    But then again I am talking from my experience as a female LIE and male ESI
    Do you happen to be able to share any examples that are more specific? Like do you also initiate beyond hint-dropping? Personally I'm extremely shy irl and don't initiate but the information exchange is what it is (aka it's there), etc.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Do you happen to be able to share any examples that are more specific? Like do you also initiate beyond hint-dropping? Personally I'm extremely shy irl and don't initiate but the information exchange is what it is (aka it's there), etc.
    Well, I don't have much, but I can share what I have.

    I was walking home from the bars extremely drunk, and a woman whom I retroactively type as ESI was walking down the very same street on the very same day, also extremely drunk. We walked along together for a while, not saying a word, and then kind of drifted behind the baseball backstop and started having sex. It was kind of an unspoken, natural agreement. Maybe telepathic. Or maybe we were just really, really drunk.

    Another time, I was talking to an ESI whom I really liked, and decided to test the water, so I kind of stood really close to her, and she told me "Back up, Bub."
    Weirdly enough, she later did that to me. But by that time, I had assigned her to the friend zone and was unprepared for her actions, so I came off really awkward and off-balance.

    Now, lest those stories put you off dating forever, I can say I had some success with an LSI, who is very similar (I think) to an ESI. She invited me to her place to watch a movie, we sat on the couch, shoulder to shoulder, and eventually decided we liked doing that and more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Do you happen to be able to share any examples that are more specific? Like do you also initiate beyond hint-dropping? Personally I'm extremely shy irl and don't initiate but the information exchange is what it is (aka it's there), etc.
    yes, I do initiate beyond hint dropping, if I am still interested in the ESI and they're not "opening up" I'll make it very clear where I stand or even tell them directly how I feel, to be sure of how things are with them, but then again ESIs are not at all into verbal affirmations. they show their affection by poems and useful actions right? at least what I've seen. and the information exchange seems to be just natural for LIE ESI, LIE sees the technical/logical/benefit related side of matters (my first question to everything "how/where/why is it used") and ESI complete us adding their ethics of relations and knowledge about history and society and often politics and information just flows and flows..I'll add the more specific example later on.

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