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Thread: Quadral Complexes and Characteristics by Stratiyevskaya

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    Default Quadral Complexes and Characteristics by Stratiyevskaya

    following the chatbox conversation, for those who might be interested in reading this with an automatic translator (post the url in here: https://translate.google.com/)

    Quadral Complexes:
    Alpha: Quadral Complex of Closed Mouth - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...02/19891--q-q-
    Beta: Quadral Complex of Subservience - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...19892-----q-q-
    Gamma: Quadral Complex of Tied Hands - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...-02/19893--q-q
    Delta: Quadral Complex of Undercut Wings - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...-02/19894--q-q

    Quadral Characteristics:
    1st quadra - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...11-12-17-16-22
    2nd quadra - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...11-12-17-18-12
    3rd quadra - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...11-12-17-19-34
    4th quadra - http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...11-12-17-21-31

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    It sounds intriguing! But pretty hard to read. (impossible, on my computer - it did not translate at all) Those machine translations are pretty hard to read, anyway. But I am quite curious about the complexes,. the "Alpha: Quadral Complex of Closed Mouth", the "Beta: Quadral Complex of Subservience", the "Gamma: Quadral Complex of Tied Hands" and the "Delta: Quadral Complex of Undercut Wings"... could you maybe give us a tiny bite? A sentence or two of explanation on those??
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ... could you maybe give us a tiny bite? A sentence or two of explanation on those??
    I've cleaned up the first section of each article to give a feel for each - you can view them here

    α - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    β - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    γ - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
    δ - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Thank you! It looks like its going to be really interesting!

    _____

    Doing a quick skim now. Saw this:
    "It is difficult for Delta types to live among representatives of other quadra - their demands and expectations are too high and difficult to match. The hardest time they have among orthogonal and opposite to them Beta Quadra, where on mere self-opinion and conceit one does not get far. Neither will they allow one to depart to virtual reality - they will bring him down from the clouds to the ground, push him out as the "weak link", lead him to a monastery as a "sacrifice". "

    ____

    BTW, @silke, what type is Stratiyevskaya?
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 11-14-2015 at 03:40 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    More goodies as I read:

    "Beta Quadra types fears that there won't be enough sweet cake for all, and those who become expelled into the lower level will get "a stick" instead of the cake - punishment and oppression instead of encouragement and reward." - - Aw!

    * * *

    "If a Delta Quadra type tell others: "You still have something to work on," - he sincerely believes that he's doing good work by raising the bar of requirements (and thereby places himself in the position of a strict critic, a teacher, a creative mentor) and making others perfect and improve in their skill and abilities, and unravel his potential. On the other side, falling under the criticism and finding themselves in a forced position of a "student", Delta Quadra types take an offense at such a self-appointed teacher and try to escape from his "care", retorting with: "I'm satisfied with everything about my work. I'm content with what I'm doing and not in need of outside advice."

    * * *

    "Emotional pressure in Gamma Quadra is considered to be the most cruel form of psychological terror. It is considered to be here an "illegal move", which no one under any circumstances should use. If the partner uses this "move" all too often, his demands become ignored, while his emotional state is simply not taken into account. " - - Aw.

    * * *

    Re: Alpha: "Each person considers it to be their duty (a natural and legal right) to speak freely on any subject or issue, not limiting themselves to the means of expression in the lexicon and by time." - - My ILE friend's message on his answering machine has always ended with a very pleasant: "And please feel free to leave as long a message as you'd like."! And so here we see a reason for that!

    More Alpha: "Alpha Quadra is not distinguished by the ability to keep secrets. Here, any restrictions to disclosures are experienced painfully. (Especially talkative in this regard is TIM ESE, Hugo: he doesn't make secrets of other people's secrets. But at the same time fears that his own confessions might be made public. Therefore, in a confidential, private conversation, ESE makes his companion promise not to reveal his secrets.)" - - Yes.

    "Secretive people are not liked in Alpha Quadra. They are not trusted, even a little bit feared - who knows what they have in mind! (This is one of the reasons behind conflicts with introverted negativist type of Gamma Quadra - ESI and ILI, who are inclined to hide and not voice their private thoughts and feelings.). - - Makes sense

    * * *

    "Beta Quadra hates attacks on their social standing, their rank, position, rights and privileges. They can't stand when their rights and benefits are being challenged, cannot stand familiarity in attitudes of others - in jest or serious. They don't tolerate ridicule that creates false impression of their inability to fend for themselves." - - I've seen this.

    * * *

    Gamma Quadra is afraid when:
    ...
    - when their right to professional and personal fulfillment is challenged.

    The latter causes a particularly painful reaction for "forced housewives" - women of Gamma Quadra who are made to stay at home while their husband works and cares for them – often this leads to dissolution of relations and leave of family under any given conditions.
    - - I noticed my dh's daughter has more interest in her career than I did when I was a Mom, and we give her a lot of support so she can work, which we are happy and blessed to do. I notice that its a different view of parenting than I have (includes "be there all the time"), but have not questioned it, as everyone is different. This helps me understand a reason why; where this comes from.

    ___

    Overall, a very interesting, sometimes merciless article, exposing human fears, which we all have, and how we cope with them. .

    .. But I am wondering if Stratiyevskaya's type helps explain why Alpha and Beta's descriptions are less than half as long as the Delta's and Gamma?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Sounds like I have all of the quadral complexes. Yippee!
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    The Closed Mouth complex fits me pretty well! I don't relate to the LII part but definitely the general issues.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    These seem like pretty cool articles. I've been meaning to read them all of the way through. So far the gamma one fits extremely well for me..

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    I have casually brought it up with four people and each of them say they aligned to the one I brought them up with.

    That's:
    1 Alpha
    1 Gamma
    2 Delta's

    So issue is that I don't have any Beta friends. Actually, no, that's a positive in my life (lel). But I think that the subservience fear is the most foolish sounding fear to have, so it will be interesting to see if there's anyone who says "yes that's how I see the world".

    As an aside, wouldn't it have made more sense aesthetically to call the second fear "Fear of Bowed Head" or something? You know, keep the body-part motif going.

    EDIT: Just change fear for complex
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ____

    BTW, @silke, what type is Stratiyevskaya? .. But I am wondering if Stratiyevskaya's type helps explain why Alpha and Beta's descriptions are less than half as long as the Delta's and Gamma?
    She types as ESI and writes from a Gamma perspective. Most seem to agree that she belongs in Gamma quadra, as -Fi negativist in SF club she gives plentiful rather specific warnings about relationships drawn from real life examples and experiences.

    The types are listed on this page: Wikisocion - Category:Socionists

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    She types as ESI and writes from a Gamma perspective. Most seem to agree that she belongs in Gamma quadra, as -Fi negativist in SF club she gives plentiful rather specific warnings about relationships drawn from real life examples and experiences.

    The types are listed on this page: Wikisocion - Category:Socionists
    Thanks so much. It explains why, even though I find it true and interesting what Stratiyevskaya writes, it seems to be coming from some other strange world. Thanks for the useful link. What Gulenko writes always makes sense to me - not sure if I remember correctly but perhaps LII and IEE have a similar cognitive style. Gulenko may be my favorite. Meged & Ovcharov stuff always strikes home with me, too.

    Do you have a favorite, and do you see a favorable relation with your type or cognitive style explaining that?

    _____________
    P.S. Do you know if Meged is IEE-Fi and Gulenko is SLI-Te? Because that is my guess.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Thanks so much. It explains why, even though I find it true and interesting what Stratiyevskaya writes, it seems to be coming from some other strange world. Thanks for the useful link. What Gulenko writes always makes sense to me - not sure if I remember correctly but perhaps LII and IEE have a similar cognitive style. Gulenko may be my favorite. Meged & Ovcharov stuff always strikes home with me, too.

    Do you have a favorite, and do you see a favorable relation with your type or cognitive style explaining that?

    _____________
    P.S. Do you know if Meged is IEE-Fi and Gulenko is SLI-Te? Because that is my guess.
    Gulenko is LII and LII is IEE Supervisor. Supervision rings share the same cognition style.

    Stratiyevskaya is usually nearly entirely correct. However, since she is 4D Fi, she is going pretty deep into the nature of humanity and human interactions. Most types will simply brush off what is said as BS, simply because they cannot see that in-depth into the realities of humanity. Her writings are generally accepted, because people understand her type and know that their own simply isn't capable of seeing such on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Gulenko is LII and LII is IEE Supervisor. Supervision rings share the same cognition style.

    Stratiyevskaya is usually nearly entirely correct. However, since she is 4D Fi, she is going pretty deep into the nature of humanity and human interactions. Most types will simply brush off what is said as BS, simply because they cannot see that in-depth into the realities of humanity. Her writings are generally accepted, because people understand her type and know that their own simply isn't capable of seeing such on their own.
    Okay, that makes sense. I have a LI friend whom I met after reading her writings on Catholicism, a subject dear to me, and what she wrote made a lot of sense, so I followed her. I was surprised to find she was my supervisor, and sort of worried about tension coming into our friendship, but I never saw that. Perhaps Supervision problems come into play only with close relationships/shared lives.

    Can you explain 4D Fi??
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Okay, that makes sense. I have a LI friend whom I met after reading her writings on Catholicism, a subject dear to me, and what she wrote made a lot of sense, so I followed her. I was surprised to find she was my supervisor, and sort of worried about tension coming into our friendship, but I never saw that. Perhaps Supervision problems come into play only with close relationships/shared lives.

    Can you explain 4D Fi??
    Supervision "problems" don't exist. The only problems that exist are with individuals for individualistic reasons. As an IR, you only have Ex for your PoLR; that is, you only have your own personal version of L. The only two types that have globality and time parameters for L are LI and LF. This means that the only two types who can psychologically adapt their frame of reference to your own personal L are these two types.

    As an example, I have eccentricities to my own F (EI). I normally cannot discuss F with people outside Delta, because they will not be able to understand my version of F without being critical. FR, my supervisor, however, can give me advice concerning difficulties that I encounter with F that "make sense" and "work for me." This is because the FR's F can speak consciously on F as though my version of F were their own. This helps my F and helps my ability to go from F to R (PoLR to base) when I need to.

    4D R is a continuous stream of information on R that is free from time and space in it's reference. It is always on. It is always running. It is always processing R information for everyone within my sphere of influence simultaneously.

    The winner is always the one who at all times has the priority positions:

    - one who monitors the situation from the standpoint of his or her personal, even if short-term, leadership or dominance

    - one who constructs and controls any situation from the standpoint of his or her personal (even arbitrarily assigned) privileges, rights, benefits; who simulates all the factors and all the conditions affecting the situation in accordance with his or her own personal plans, intentions, priorities and ambitions;

    - one who has the last word, opinion, or action, and is able to impose it on the "controlled" as a kind of immutable absolute with which he needs to comply (often due to some kind of previous agreements which now he cannot reject);

    - one who always knows best what needs to be done and how to do it, when and to whom to speak, and constantly teaches others, while not permitting to get lectured himself;

    - one who always controls others, but doesn't recognize any control over himself;

    - one who finds faults in others, ignoring or not taking seriously the criticism in one's own address;

    - one who adapts flexibly to the constantly changing conditions and circumstances, keeps up with and adapt to the "spirit of the times", current demands, and presently encouraged ideologies;

    - one who knows how to conform, can often change their views, and is able to accurately and flexibly integrated into the existing system of relations,

    - one who is able to be humble and ambitious at the same time, who can be deliberately uninhibited in his actions, and at another time ostentatiously dependent on the conditions and arrangements that allow to re-address this dependability to others;

    - one who calls others to reconciliation, submission, obedience, to making favors and other-wordly mutual concessions, and himself refuses to obey, to submit, to go to concessions: falls into panic and hurt, almost to tears, when any concessions are demanded from him;

    - one who displaces and oppresses others, while remaining "at a hight" himself in all circumstances retaining the position of "moral and ethical superiority," remaining in the public opinion a person who is in all respects infallible - "the standard of morality", "the stronghold of ethics", "the focal point of all virtues."
    When I read this, I thought, shit!.... They're on to me! LOL

    The quoted is what I naturally do non-stop, no matter where they go. Since people are Social creatures and basically everything revolves around Relationships, R ends up as the final supervision of all types. If I enter someone or some group's sphere of influence... It's too late. At some point, they will belong to me. And I will have peace. For whatever the individualistic reason, the amount of time it takes for such is much lower for myself than other EI and IE that I know. Whatever the case may be, if I started selling coffee in the lobby of Congress, within 5 years or so, they would do whatever I want.

    So, to skip all the technicalities and just give you a basic point-blank answer to, can I explain 4D Fi: It's like social God-mode, no one realizes the game is rigged, and if you're simultaneously intelligent... There's not really anything anyone can do to stop you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    "Emotional pressure in Gamma Quadra is considered to be the most cruel form of psychological terror. It is considered to be here an "illegal move", which no one under any circumstances should use."
    I found this sentence to be funny... lol.

    So basically, to get along with each Quadra members:

    Alpha: Never make him shut up
    Beta: Never make him feel weak and subservient
    Gamma: Never make his hands feel tied up and unable to do meaningful work
    Delta: Never make him feel unable to fulfill his potential
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    "Secretive people are not liked in Alpha Quadra. They are not trusted, even a little bit feared - who knows what they have in mind! (This is one of the reasons behind conflicts with introverted negativist type of Gamma Quadra - ESI and ILI, who are inclined to hide and not voice their private thoughts and feelings.). - - Makes sense

    --> in what ways are they inclined to be a) disliked and b)hidden ??

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    socionics is all about life goals imo so makes me wonder what is it about Ti, Ne, Si life goals that makes alpha dislike gamma introverts? like it says ESI are "hidden" according to
    maybe a Ti, Ne , Si pointview but when i see ESI this seems far from observation??

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