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Thread: I don't get dual relationships (duality)

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    Default I don't get dual relationships (duality)

    They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
    There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
    Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?
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    Lol Fay
    My ILI friend was experiencing very bad posture problems when she took her delicate and fragile body to her SEE future husband chiropractor who asked her out after giving her an adjustment. No parties involved lol.

    I set up a young SLE with his sister's IEI friend. The sister is SLE too and she made friends with the IEI in school. In math class

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    Well this is exactly what sucks about duality and life in general. Even though duality has the most potential that does not mean it is the easiest to start, in fact it is one of the more difficult type of relationships to start. This is largely due to duals being in opposite clubs, in which one's dual is mixed in with their superegos/conflictors which may cause to someone to make the mistake of believing it is best to avoid members of their opposite club altogether. The other reason for this is that duals are unlikely to meet because their fields of activity are very distant from one another. For example, an NT may spend most of his time on the internet while an SF would be doing things like going to community events. Even when you do manage to get into close contact with your dual you might think they are too good for you or that there is some sort of catch.

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    Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
    A SLE could be impressed by the writing ability and thoughts of an IEI, and an IEI impressed by the physical prowess/competitiveness of a SLE. All over the internet, you will find IEI type women wanting mates who are outgoing, tough, non-emotional, productive. You'll also find SLE type men being attracted to introverted, feeling types of women. Just as a personal example, I once knew a woman who was a very gifted artist. I have no interest in producing visual art or keeping up with that world, but I was interested in the art she would create. I think in the same way, an IEI might not be interested in SLE type pursuits generally, but they might make an exception for a particular SLE. Even if a SLE isn't interested in poetry, the SLE might find it attractive somehow seeing their IEI love-interest reading such words with feeling, or just observing that such feeling and/or talent exists in their significant other.

    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    Meeting a romantic partner that is a dual might be difficult, but there is something refreshing and invigorating about being drawn into the sphere of your dual, and how they allow you to draw them into yours. They validate each other naturally if they're psychologically healthy and other variables are in alignment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uncivilized View Post
    (...) IEI impressed by the physical prowess/competitiveness of a SLE.
    Yes!

    When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    SEE can be lazy people too, they are quite easy going, you know who is also easy going, ILI.

    When they talk to eachother they light up. This has nothing to do whether one is adventurous or not.

    Also don't overreact to the introvert extravert thing. SEE need time on the couch too, i have an SEE friend he doesn't like visitors during the week, that's 5 evenings alone. I however like to visit friends 3 or 4 times during the week.

    Where you meet, well I met a lot during my internet dating time lol, but you can meet them everywhere, just like all the other types. I actually have met very few ILI girls, which according to your reasoning I should have.

    Stop theorizing and imagining, start seeing how things work out in real life. This is my number one advice.

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    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work
    The other person takes care of all the shit you really don't wanna do, so you both complement each other's weak points and so you both can be your narcissistic selves with the most comfort. Say you have Starfall on a date with an omega male. Starfall wants to be spat on during sex. The omega male.... also wants to be spat on. They both want a hot black guy to spit on them, and none are wanting to do the spitting themselves. It's just awkward. I mean maybe not even awkward. Maybe they get along great but still something is missing. After all 'getting along well' is also too easily friendzoned.

    You need the spark of differences to be attracted to somebody. You do still need things in common and equality to make something last, but the fires of attraction are created via opposites. Not to be all heteronormative or anything.... but yeah. *lol still remembers the time when @lungs cutely used the word heteronormative in a sentence.*

    So you then instead pair Starfall with a more dominant male that spits on her and volia you have compatibility. The dominant str8 black dude wants to spit, and she wants to be spat on.

    (Lol I know that example was kind of crude but funny and accurate. <3 Starfall)


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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Yes!

    When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.
    lmao, i'd always crush on guys who were intellectually killing it. one of those guys *was* an SLE though, he was sort of hermetic (sp/sx) and read about everything and when i didn't know something would explain it to me as if *anyone* would know ... luved it, haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    lmao, i'd always crush on guys who were intellectually killing it. one of those guys *was* an SLE though, he was sort of hermetic (sp/sx) and read about everything and when i didn't know something would explain it to me as if *anyone* would know ... luved it, haha
    Sp/Sx SLEs, do they even exist?
    It sounds more like that intellectual hermetic sp/sx guy was rather SLI-Te.

    (Te = "what everyone (should) know(s)")

    P.S: And yeah, I was never really attracted to guys "killing it intellectually" per se, haha.
    Though I'd like them to be somewhat witty, of course...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Yes!

    When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.
    I wish that you will find a very nice SLE

    He will be commander general of such and such and willl know how to cook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uncivilized View Post
    Meeting a romantic partner that is a dual might be difficult, but there is something refreshing and invigorating about being drawn into the sphere of your dual, and how they allow you to draw them into yours. They validate each other naturally if they're psychologically healthy and other variables are in alignment.
    Yep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow.
    May support each other as friends do. Best IR for this among 16.

    > How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts.

    INTP may be in places wich visit ESFP. People often make couples with those they study, work, live near. INTPs visit public places like cafes, parks, etc. There are many ways where introverts meet extraverts. Sometimes they get interest and get to know on streets, but it's less common.

    > I just don't see how this is supposed to work.

    You never saw extraverts in places you visit? Really? Situation with INTPs is similar.

    Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class
    The ESTP sees a charming INFP girl, comes to her, begins to talk about something, about her. If the girl shows return interest and asks about him, an extravert may offer to spend more time together to know better each other. If the girl shows no interest but is liked significantly, then may be done 2nd, 3rd, ... try to establish relations. E-S types are persistent to compensate possible shyness, timidity, reticence of I-N types.

    > and then talks about football rules

    If ESTP is not an idiot he will find a theme interesting for both. The talk about own specific interests may happen on later step of relations.

    I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen
    Besides accidental meetings of people, I suppose in most cases couples are done where both study, work or live near.
    Yep. ESTP and INFP may even work together, - in same office room, same company, etc.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
    There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
    Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?
    Maybe you're having trouble imagining it because you're thinking about caricatures, rather than people. I've seen plenty of EP/IP pairups of all the possible dual dyads. Se types do find Ni types, it does happen. Ne types do find Si types (or maybe it's Si types who find Ne types, hah).

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    They're good for friendships for a long time - only after a significant period of time would a closer LTR work. Intimate duality requires emotional maturity, something that duals must first instill in each other. Quickly going into a dual relationship would be dangerous because both parties are just so different. Doesn't makes sense to most people until after a long period of time.

    I think this process would take anywhere from several months to several years, if at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    irl, comes to her, begins to talk about something, about her. If the girl shows return interest and asks about him, an extravert may offer to spend more time together to know better each other. If the girl shows no interest but is liked significantly, then may be done 2nd, 3rd, ... try to establish relations. E-S types are persistent to compensate possible shyness, timidity, reticence of I-N types.
    I had a charming SEE guy approach me recently. I was on my way to my car, wanting to finally get home after a long day at university.
    He walked besides me, asking me whether we could talk. I held back a lot, hardly replying anything, exhibiting the typical Ni lead shyness and timidity, I suppose. Also I was not particularly interested, distracted.
    Differently from other guys who have approached me in the past, my lack of clear verbal response or direct attention did not phase him at all, he kept "pushing", for a 2nd and 3rd time, but in a casual manner. Interestingly, this did not bother me, though I did want to get away, haha. Eventually he "gave up", and walked away, still smiling. My behaviour did not irritate or unsettle him, how I am used to observe with most other guys (who are often actually Childlike types, possibly taking note of my Si Role and being confused when I respond like a Victim, haha).

    For me personally, the most interesting take-away from that short interaction was the fact I've felt like my mood had improved afterwards, haha! Even though I did not reciprocate his interest and rejected him. Usually, guys make me feel bad for rejecting them, and/or the interaction with them was so cringe-worthy I feel uncomfortable for a while afterwards. But this SEE guy, he did not "guilt-trip" me for not being interested and busy. His approach had actually made me feel better, haha. The magic of .

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    The best stories about love involve attraction, problems, overcoming those problems.


    Yes, duals might not seem to have a lot in common at first, or seem "worlds appart" but that doesn't mean when it happens it won't be the best story.


    I think duality happens less often then we think, but I think it's also kinda what we see in many stories about romance. They seem far out, or impossible sometimes, but it's still the best narrative.

    I guess that's one of the things socionics could be useful for: being aware that your dual might not be the ideal person you're imagining and worth experimenting outside of your normal preferences/comfort zones.

    Yes, talking to the poetry chick might be odd for the soccer player, or visa versa, but it might just be worth it. After all, poetry dorks are boring to poetry chicks(jk jk you sensitive IEI guys).

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    You can be sensitive and artistic and sporty and athletic all at the same time. You can be sweet and mean at the same time. It's called...bittersweet lol

    I agree with Narc that u ppl think way too much in caricatures. It's like this defensive mechanism you have with people to avoid being hurt by them or something. Because other ppl's messy complications are hard to deal with, we simplify them in order to deal with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
    There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
    Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?




    First of all you should acknowledge that all gamma types are focused on productivity and important tasks. Just because SEEs are extroverted, active, and people centered doesn't mean they will always be partying. That's a ridiculous stereotype. It does happen but you're more likely to find *all types* partying when their culture groomed then to do so. That said, because of the amount of people in the world and the that all human activities are *fairly human* (not limited to specific types.) People within the same Quadra are likely to have very (v.e.r.y) similar interests. I'd add that people who love each other, share world views and goals, and respect each other will do well together regardless of type, and this pair will do better than two duals who don't see the similarities. It's not likely that these two will be nothing alike. It just so happens that when you find a dual that has these similarities you'll be inseparable. But i don't recommend looking for a dual (or a relationship; they should happen naturally). Bonus round: se valuing duals will often come together by accidentally bumping heads; this is how they are discovered. The success of duality is also partially due to the nature of conflict and growth. These relations *are not* free of conflict. However they do stimulate maturation and growth

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    Also, healthy, experienced people (that are actually ready for relationships) actually know that it's okay to have different interests. C'mon now that's textbook xP

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    Also i have a dual that I'm attracted to but that has a completely different worldview than myself. I have an activity partner that isn't as *sexy* (blech that came out gross) that i connect with soo well on that level. I'd opt for the second in a heartbeat.

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    I just attended the wedding of a SEE(f)-ILI(m) couple a couple of weeks ago. They are, as you would imagine, crazy about each other. It's really sweet -- she teases him and is super outgoing and fun but also down-to-Earth, and he plays along w the teasing and is a little shy in general w his feelings but also smitten. It's very sweet.

    Duals can and do find each other...just keep living your life and paying attention, and also know it may be up to you to get things started, whether directly or less obviously.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Duality works provided that both parties are sufficiently open-minded to associate with someone that is irreconcilably different from their own selves. For those lacking in patience it is not the best choice.

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    @Fay -- the reason you probably don't get it is that it doesn't really make sense, the way it is hyped up. I view socionics as excellent for classifying certain abstract patterns in how people see things, but there are many other factors affecting relationships, probably some far more relevant to some than socionics.

    Also, I don't even think of the SEE/ILI as you say, in that I don't even associate very closely the extroversion of socionics to that of the Big 5, say. So I guess I don't associate SEE with the party-animals, and so on.
    I think that's true of the MBTI analogue, maybe ESFP in the straight up test-measured dichotomies.

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    I have realized that there are certain aspects which make me feel less emotionally attracted/compatible to my Dual.

    Aspects which are not related to Duality, but anything outside of that.

    For instance, I have noticed I actually value matching political orientations a lot, more than I've previously thought (unconscious ftw).
    If someone is too politically Conservative, I am disinclined to enter anything romantic with them. The mindset turns me off, relationship-wise. I could be sort of friends with the person, but not anything too close.
    I find Conservative people are often too closed-minded (in certain areas) for my taste.

    By that standard, I would probably choose a Liberal Semi-Dual (or Activity partner) over a Conservative Dual.

    Just like Gulenko said, good Semi-Duality is better than bad Duality.

    "Good" being the person with whom you are more compatible with in terms of lifestyle, values, and interests.

    I know of Fi valuing types who are naturally primarily concerned with values, hence they often choose partners who share those values, before any compatible inter type relation.
    They are more willing to be in a less ideal/matching intertype relation in favour of matching values.

    Personally, I used to believe intertype relation ranked over everything; but this is not exactly the case anymore.

    Now I am "just" looking for someone with whom I'll have a good intertype relation with... and shared goals/values/interests. Haha.
    I am still leaning towards intertype relation > values, because certain types tend to have certain moral values due to their functional values... (And I don't care that much about moral values...)

    But learning about Conservative SLEs has really opened my eyes, and made me realize that I would/could not want to be with a Conservative SLE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    So...how is this supposed to work?...In real life?
    Take for example the Erotic Styles. In normal, healthy romantic relationships, partners do all four of them each, because life changes and the world moves on, and it requires each person to do these various things day in and day out.

    The "dual relationships" don't "work," because normal, healthy people alternate and go through all the elements equally to maintain a balanced lifestyle capable of sustaining the self first and foremost prior to joining with another similar person.

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    Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics

    SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

    V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
    Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
    V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
    Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
    V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
    Audience: Dialectic thinking.
    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.
    Thus, it is not possible to use formal logic to understand dual relations. They can only be understood through dialectic logic that understands that even if they are fighting they are still one whole. Only this kind of logic is able to explain these relations. Someone might say: "We have total harmony. We don't have any disagreements. There is nothing to smooth out." I don't believe it, because I know that dual relations have to go through these intensifications. Without them, you will get bored by one another. Without this there is no raisin, no spice, it would be uninteresting. This would have been static relations, while dual relations are introverted, that is closed-off autonomous relations, but also dynamic relations that are always changing.
    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?
    Dunno, no clue. For me it will always read like a ‚fantasy‘. I don’t know, if there is not too much ‚idealization‘ going on. It’s like when you really get to the core of a lot of peoples lives (what’s really going on behind the scenes) and know that life can be this huge meat grinder, that a lot of things can happen, then it‘s for me this deep understanding, that sometimes it just boils down to whatever works... sometimes there is no place for ideals. But then again for the ‚romantics‘ at heart, who are ‚open‘ and ‚believe‘ in the ideal, their hearts get moving and idk... because they believe, they will keep on moving and may end up where the cynics never thought they would and maybe it’s about striking a balance between the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymeria View Post
    Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics

    SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

    V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
    Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
    V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
    Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
    V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
    Audience: Dialectic thinking.
    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.


    This is excellent. Very accurate, imo. You can love adore and respect each other, but I don't think either dual really understands the other deep, deep down...and that helps keep it interesting.

    I think dual relationships, if both people are healthy and invested in having a successful relationship, are great not only for enjoyment, but for honing communication skills, effective argument skills (note: I mean fair arguing to seek out truth, not fighting), and respect for oneself as well as the other person.

    The differences bt the two contribute a lot to the respect factor: your dual can effortlessly do things and think in ways you struggle with or miss entirely, and in the course of interacting and especially when arguing w them, you realize this even more, but you also realize that the same is true from their perspective -- there is a lot of mutual respect (admiration, even), and that is a big factor in dual relations that I don't recall reading or hearing much about.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    OK.. new to socionics, not new to personality typing. I am a SEE gal involved with a guy who, as of this morning, is an ILI. Woohoo yeah! Duals!

    Ahem. This thread seems to assume that ILI's never leave the house? And that SEEs party 24 hours a day? Everybody has got to pay bills, go to work, everyone has friends, co-workers, and interests. If there are only 16 types of people out there, odds are ILI and SEE will run into each other at some point.

    My ILI is a high school math teacher and sports coach. He is very good at what he does. He has a group of nerdy (I say that with love) friends who share the same varied tastes in music, and they go to live music events and little hole in the wall pubs together a few times a month. They discuss the best beer brands, and vodka and talk about music and tell stories about things in the past. I absolutely love hanging out with them, and I am usually the only person drunkenly dancing next to them, but who cares. My point is, he is not a weird anti-social hermit, although he does need a good amount of down time and is perfectly content just chillin on the couch all day...but I am too, because we get to snuggle and talk about stuff.

    I also don't party every night, but I'm a mom, with a somewhat serious job. I do LOVE the hell out of social event though.
    Last edited by HotSauce; 02-02-2016 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Because.

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    Oh yeah - we don't fight. Ever. At least not real fights. Play fights are normal. He pretty much worships the ground I walk on (I also say this in the most respectful way possible, as he is very strong mentally and stoic and I totally respect his manhood and all that but he tends to worship me, at the end of the day) and I am perfectly OK with this arrangement

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotSauce View Post
    OK.. new to socionics, not new to personality typing. I am a SEE gal involved with a guy who, as of this morning, is an ILI. Woohoo yeah! Duals!

    Ahem. This thread seems to assume that ILI's never leave the house? And that SEEs party 24 hours a day? Everybody has got to pay bills, go to work, everyone has friends, co-workers, and interests. If there are only 16 types of people out there, odds are ILI and SEE will run into each other at some point.

    My ILI is a high school math teacher and sports coach. He is very good at what he does. He has a group of nerdy (I say that with love) friends who share the same varied tastes in music, and they go to live music events and little hole in the wall pubs together a few times a month. They discuss the best beer brands, and vodka and talk about music and tell stories about things in the past. I absolutely love hanging out with them, and I am usually the only person drunkenly dancing next to them, but who cares. My point is, he is not a weird anti-social hermit, although he does need a good amount of down time and is perfectly content just chillin on the couch all day...but I am too, because we get to snuggle and talk about stuff.

    I also don't party every night, but I'm a mom, with a somewhat serious job. I do LOVE the hell out of social event though.
    This sounds like he is the Te subtype, and you the Fi subtype.

    If he was the Ni subtype (strongly), he surely would fit the "hermit" stereotype of ILI more accurately.
    Same for SEE-Se being more of the party-girl/guy than SEE-Fi (though it depends).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymeria View Post
    Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics



    SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

    V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
    Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
    V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
    Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
    V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
    Audience: Dialectic thinking.
    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.
    Thus, it is not possible to use formal logic to understand dual relations. They can only be understood through dialectic logic that understands that even if they are fighting they are still one whole. Only this kind of logic is able to explain these relations. Someone might say: "We have total harmony. We don't have any disagreements. There is nothing to smooth out." I don't believe it, because I know that dual relations have to go through these intensifications. Without them, you will get bored by one another. Without this there is no raisin, no spice, it would be uninteresting. This would have been static relations, while dual relations are introverted, that is closed-off autonomous relations, but also dynamic relations that are always changing.
    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

    Dunno, no clue. For me it will always read like a ‚fantasy‘. I don’t know, if there is not too much ‚idealization‘ going on. It’s like when you really get to the core of a lot of peoples lives (what’s really going on behind the scenes) and know that life can be this huge meat grinder, that a lot of things can happen, then it‘s for me this deep understanding, that sometimes it just boils down to whatever works... sometimes there is no place for ideals. But then again for the ‚romantics‘ at heart, who are ‚open‘ and ‚believe‘ in the ideal, their hearts get moving and idk... because they believe, they will keep on moving and may end up where the cynics never thought they would and maybe it’s about striking a balance between the two.
    Want to know what else is dialectical? Narcissist-Borderline, Emotional Manipulation-Codependent, there are other pairings that are attractive based on disorder.

    Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.

    However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.

    Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
    There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

    How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
    Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
    Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


    So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?
    I'm working on translating some articles one of which does talk about some things you might have questions about.

    http://socionics.kiev.ua/articles/fe...oup/ascension/

    Quote Originally Posted by Research Relations
    1. Research relations.

    This group includes THAT, WE, IN, SW. Their task - to the knowledge of the world, its fundamental laws and themselves through a comparison with other people. Being in that relationship, the man is better than alone, compares, analyzes, classifies, and tests the hypothesis put forward.
    Research relations trained mental position in the formula type. The term "mentality" I am here not in the sense of using Ausra, a sense of "belonging to the mental processes" (see. My work [5]). I refer to the mental 1, 2, 7 and 8 positions of the socionic model.
    1. 1. Heavy studies.

    Identical (TO) - In these respects, people are attracted to a community of interests. However, to understand the other, it becomes uninteresting. The identity of the evolving understanding of the competition in the mental sphere. To discuss attracted the most unique, controversial issues.
    Mirror (WE) - always open the second side of the "medal". Wear analytical, allow to solve the most complex theoretical cognitive problems. A heavy load on the mental functions of the partners. There is a deep insight into the subject oboyudointeresnogo.
    Couple relationship occurs when the original type to join the other two types, interacting only through it as through a communicative center. Thus, the process of heavy research should be specially selected to model in the triad. Here are some examples of these types of triads for the Quartet of the right ring extroverted progress:
    IL ET FR PS
    IL LI ET TE FR RF PS SP
    1. 2. Lightweight research.

    Repayments (TO) - review, critique each other's positions, the message is interesting and useful information, the accumulation of information.
    Quasiidentities (HF) - verification, experimentation. The ratio of different business activity, initiative and curiosity. That's what the triad obtained lung research for our chosen way of example Quartet evoekstravertov:
    IL ET FR PS
    TP PT RI IR SE ES LF FL

    Research relations underlie the "youth" of marriage - psychologically immature. Many young people enter into marriage with their fellows on the basis of the general enthusiasm - usually music, fashion clothing, leisure.Despite the fact that sometimes it is stable (especially if the partners belong to the same quadra - WHAT WE), it should be taken no more than approbation relations experiment to create a family.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sociality
    2. Social relations.

    Four relationships include social orientation control, AC, EC, SC. Designed to fit into society, to create a family, to have a circle of friends, find your group. In these respects burden placed on the vital position in the formula type.
    It should be noted that I use the term "vital" not like Ausra, but in the sense of "belonging to the process are satisfied in the first place the needs of everyday life." By vital positions, ie. E. Those which are responsible for adaptation of the real human society, I refer positions 3, 4, 5, 6.
    2. 1. Light sociality.

    Duality (control) - having a small family living separately from other relatives. In the foreground - the convenience, minimal effort while maximizing getting on with everyone in the home.
    Activation (AK) - a large family or friends with whom you meet on holidays. First of all, a large number of emotionally charged contacts and real caring for each other. Examples triads simulating communication in society lightweight (truncated quadra):
    IL ET FR PS
    SE ES LF FL TP PT RI IR
    2. 2. A hard sociality.

    Superego (SE) - creates a lot of inconvenience in everyday life, leisure activities. Partners encounter rejection of its vital habits. Frequent unmotivated outbursts of emotion. This communicative situation razvorotlivym be coached in life, get comfortable against the resistance of others.
    Conflict (CP) - helps to survive in poor conditions of existence, hostile environment, in a word - in a difficult society. Trains are not razvorotlivost flexibility and resistance and tolerance to strenuous relations. The paradox of this kind of conflict that are looking for partners or unwittingly create problems themselves, which give rise to tensions, to unite to overcome them.
    Triad heavy society as an example:
    IL ET FR PS
    FR RF PS SP IL LI ET TE

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    Duality (control) - having a small family living separately from other relatives. In the foreground - the convenience, minimal effort while maximizing getting on with everyone in the home.
    Activation (AK) - a large family or friends with whom you meet on holidays. First of all, a large number of emotionally charged contacts and real caring for each other.
    Reading this, I might actually prefer Activation over Duality. Could be related to me being Social instinct first, and not SO blindspot (which the Duality description here sounds more like).
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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.
    Yeah... I agree, it‘s important. FTR I have a different outlook than this excerpt. Tried to skim the surface of what I was thinking in the last paragraph, but it’s kinda hard to put into words. Idealization, fantasy it just irritates me. It can open door for every kind of bullshit. Illusions, idealization can be exploited. It‘s just mist. People can talk and bullshit, whatever. It‘s not real and I’m sorry but the mist, the castle in the sky, is giving me nothing. There are some things you cannot derive from any system. There are things, you just have to know within yourself. When I think about real... it’s like a feeling deep in my gut. Stuff that cannot be put into words. You just know, that... there is deep caring for someone, that there is respect for someone and that it’s real with another person.

    Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.
    Yeah Yeah Yeah... super-ego etc. socionics. See how much can you really now about a person from the start? How much can you now about yourself at a certain stage in your life? You cannot foresee everything. See people get together for various reasons. Some seek stability, to realize it was not what the truly needed. Some seek stabilty, because it‘s exactly what they need. It can go every way. Everybody has their reasons for something. Sometimes outsiders don‘t know about that. You cannot know what might make a person seek out sth. what kind of things they carry with them. Sometimes some relationships (not just romantic) are needed. It’s reality in life often enough, people get together, things turn out to be not so ideal, doesn‘t mean they were not real.

    But I think I get it, looking at it from the Socionics angle. Super-Ego. Like Super Ego functions being the functions with the societal expectation. People who might look at a pair from the outside and everything seems fitting or ok, but in their intimate, private sphere it‘s actually not. Then people might stay together because of kids or because of being afraid of being alone or because they believe they can make it work or because of sth else. I don't know if duality is the answer for everything. I think things can be sometimes more complex, a lot of things can happen, nobody knows the answer to it all. Nobody has the manual how it should be going. Idk... Sometimes you don‘t always get what you want. Sometimes if you try, you might get what you need

    Yeah maybe this is the sad, hard and depressing reality of a lot of people, that it’s not Hollywood cliche, but staying together to raise kids. That just doesn’t sound so nice and yeah it’s maybe not good for the person involved, but it‘s their decision and I believe in life it’s often about you and your decisions. I also believe there are often more layers to anything. Sometimes even if it's people are no good for each other, but still people care about each other. I mean what they have is still real... even if there is conflict and idk... but that of course is hard. Like it would be easier to just hate the other person. That’s probably where you can go all cynical ‚that‘s why caring sucks‘. maybe that's where it's 'dialectical', things look ok from the outside, but from the inside?

    Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.
    Ah yeah... back to duality. See sometimes this is for me, just how it is at times. Real life relationships. I mean you know stuff like how women from poorer countries marry men in order to stay in the country. How stuff is, how relationships can be. Not how everything is so nice and yes I know... that’s actually sad. How people can be this unhappy and still have to carry on. How life can grind people to the ground, how you can be unhappy in this subdued way. Maybe that’s why I added the last part. Like... how you have to believe in something even if (well at least for me) it sounds quite to ideal and yeah I get your point, to find something real inside the fantasy. So yeah long story short. Life can suck, but it shouldn't suck everything out of you. Hopes whatever... Boah idk... I have no clue. I’m just throwing stuff on the wall... Like I have no idea.



    Last edited by Nymeria; 03-18-2016 at 10:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.

    However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.

    Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.
    Absolutely, I notice the same thing, this is definitely needed for duality, it's not magic that removes the need for mutual respect.

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    Doesn't it really come down to that the SEE wants someone who can plan, tell them about stuff and what's going to happen, and the ILI wants someone who is fun, inquisitive, positive, and knows what to do in the moment?
    I'm just an effin ray of sunshine

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Yes!

    When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.
    lol
    How about the possibility of meeting an LSE instead because they tend to become the best at something that they pick up. How do you recognize them from SLE

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    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring.[B][I] Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

    @Eliza Thomason What do you think of the above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring.[B][I] Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

    @Eliza Thomason What do you think of the above?
    I might write more later but for now will just say - I don't see hate with my dh, only at times, yes, annoyance, annoyance with him just being who he is. Like explaining a thing too much like a professor giving a lecture. We do come to conflict, like over design (we are building a room with many aspects) and we are learning how to synthesize for sure. His SEI )self-type from quiz) granddaughter said, "You two are so funny. You argue, then you call each other dear." Yes, because the conflict is about the thing, the disagreement, and its not the person that annoys. And this from her was not a criticism; I could see our way made her feel secure and comfortable. Yes, we "dear" all day even just after arguing.

    He is louder than me, and I don't like loud, and I tell him "I am not deaf", or if there is any strife in the arguing I turn my back and walk away and say, "I don't want to talk now. Lets talk later when you are not mad." He sees the real effect of "loud" and "strife" on me and he changes immediately - so he can continue if he is so motivated. And we continue the "fight" but with the gentler voices and less-strife that I need.

    Anyway, and so we learn about each other, and the "Don't let the sun go down on your anger" that seemed so impossible to achieve with my ex (he was loud and had a major anger issue) has never been an issue here. Never a question. I am never annoyed at sundown, nor is he. The annoyance, maybe what VG calls "hate", doesn't last. I guess frankly I get my way a lot, but I feel so MUCH gratitude that I can express my full opinion on a thing, that my way matters, as I have never been able to before in my life, except in moments with friends, but not in day-to-day real life. And so I love him more, and want to please him who I love more and who pleases me.

    A couple of times - design arguments have gotten complicated, like recently he was introducing an well-developed for a problem we had discussed and he arrived at a solution all alone while I had nothing to do with what he worked on, so, no input from me. And He shows me, and its a lot to see, and meanwhile and he is "selling" it, with a lecture, and is not giving me a chance to comment, and he sees a negative comment is about to come out from me and he anticipates, and rabbles on with his explanation and tries to overrule, saying, to acknowledge I am trying to say something, "I am going to win this one!" and I say, annoyed, "Why is it about winning?? Its about communicating and collaborating." And so we communicate. I get my way plenty, then I ask, was I not right? And I was. We both know it. But if he truly does not like my idea, no matter how much I like it I definitely don't push because I want him to be happywith the outcome. I know there will be something we find we both like, we just haven't thought of it yet. The solution, when we both still like our idea better, or I am rejecting his, or he mine, is to table it, and look/wait for another way.

    The biggest design one was we could not agree on the way to make a wall of cabinets, and tabled it, so long. He worked on the other wall, with the window seat cabinets instead, since the other wall ideas were stalled. Then months after, last month, we were watching Inspector Morse, and I saw VERY brief scene with a wall at Oxford that was EXACTLY the thing, and he agreed, drew up a design, and we both love it and are going with it. Its so exhilarating to arrive at a thing we are both enthusiastic about, a result of collaborating our strengths, which are different. We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ... Anyway, we always -eventually - arrive at something we BOTH think is right, and are both quite satisfied.

    Maybe if I can figure out a way I will post somewhere the several scaled complete design ideas he drew up for this wall that gave us so much trouble, all the rejected designs, and finally what we are doing....
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 04-03-2016 at 05:37 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I might write more later but for now will just say - I don't see hate with my dh, only at times, yes, annoyance, annoyance with him just being who he is. Like explaining a thing too much like a professor giving a lecture. We do come to conflict, like over design (we are building a room with many aspects) and we are learning how to synthesize for sure. His SEI )self-type from quiz) granddaughter said, "You two are so funny. You argue, then you call each other dear." Yes, because the conflict is about the thing, the disagreement, and its not the person that annoys. And this from her was not a criticism; I could see our way made her feel secure and comfortable. Yes, we "dear" all day even just after arguing.

    He is louder than me, and I don't like loud, and I tell him "I am not deaf", or if there is any strife in the arguing I turn my back and walk away and say, "I don't want to talk now. Lets talk later when you are not mad." He sees the real effect of "loud" and "strife" on me and he changes immediately - so he can continue if he is so motivated. And we continue the "fight" but with the gentler voices and less-strife that I need.

    Anyway, and so we learn about each other, and the "Don't let the sun go down on your anger" that seemed so impossible to achieve with my ex (he was loud and had a major anger issue) has never been an issue here. Never a question. I am never annoyed at sundown, nor is he. The annoyance, maybe what VG calls "hate", doesn't last. I guess frankly I get my way a lot, but I feel so MUCH gratitude that I can express my full opinion on a thing, that my way matters, as I have never been able to before in my life, except in moments with friends, but not in day-to-day real life. And so I love him more, and want to please him who I love more and who pleases me.

    A couples of times (design arguments - he is introducing an idea he arrived at alone and not giving me a chance to comment, and a negative comment is about to come out and he anticipates and rabbles on with his explanation and tries to overrule, saying, to acknowledge I am trying to say something, "I am going to win this one!" and I say, annoyed, "Why is it about winning?? Its about communicating and collaborating." And so we communicate. I get my way a lot, then I ask, was I not right? And I was. But if he truly does not like it I definitely don't push because I want him to be happywith the outcome. The solution when we both still like our idea better, or I am rejecting his or he mine, is to table it, and look for another way. We could not agree on the way to make a wall of cabinets, and tabled it, so long. He worked on the other wall, with the window seat cabinets instead. Then months after, last month, we were watching Inspector Morse, and I saw VERY brief seen with a wall at Oxford that was EXACTLY the thing, and he agreed, drew up a design, and we both love it and are going with it. Its so exhilarating to arrive at a thing we are both enthusiastic about, a result of collaborating our strengths, which are different. Maybe if I can figure out a way I will post somewhere the several complete design ideas he came up with for this wall, till we happily got there...
    He should leave the design up to you. Doesn't he know better?

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