2016 US Election

[Kim]

and also that you subscribe to the popular culturally and politically correct view on the "good" of killing of unborn children. And I respect that you think these political discussions are worthwhile.

I believe in the good of leaving control over their reproductive rights to women. But I also have a lot of respect for Christians who oppose abortion, but instead of vilifying others or harassing women at abortion clinics, do on the ground work to help those less fortunate because alleviating poverty reduces abortion rates.

But you are the type of Christian who will sit at her computer, scream "EVIL" and probably thinks it's God's will when a desperate women dies trying to induce an abortion by herself. There is no compassion in that.

I know I sound belligerent, but your self-righteousness and self-absorption sometimes really gets under my skin.

[Eliza Thomason]

Are you talking about this, @Eliza Thomason? Bc a lot of these are questionable at best. More info, w citations, might be interesting....

There's this as well: http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

Pretty much that, Sapphire. Lots more detail elsewhere but that's the abbreviated list. Snopes - I have completely disagreed with them on enough occasions to not want to read the opinions of Snopes anymore. Their arrogant assumed sense of authority is annoying enough, but I also am repelled by attempts to tell what is the proper way to think and feel - I hate that.

[Eliza Thomason]

I believe in the good of leaving control over their reproductive rights to women.

Sounds good except that the baby is a completely different person than the mom. I feel for Moms who choose abortion because of crisis and the influence of this society. Society does her wrong, and she has to live with fallout of that.

But I also have a lot of respect for Christians who oppose abortion, but instead of vilifying others or harassing women at abortion clinics, do on the ground work to help those less fortunate because alleviating poverty reduces abortion rates.

I am really glad to hear you have respect for Christians who oppose abortion. I really respect you for that. Those harassers get a lot of press, but I have never seen the harassers in real life, only a lot of good kind people. I know one women who has dedicated every single weekend to peaceful prayerful protests at abortion clinics for years and years. She is also involved in many services for moms in crisis, too. So much dedication! Her life poured out for this cause. Her own beautiful life was the result of a botched abortion - her mother had an abortion of her own twin - the abortionist did not realize there were two of them... she was a surprise much later...

But you are the type of Christian who will sit at her computer, scream "EVIL" and probably thinks it's God's will when a desperate women dies trying to induce an abortion by herself. There is no compassion in that.

That's not me - that's your own imagination entirely. I cannot imagine what in the world about me makes you think I would consider it anything but a heartbreak to God when a woman harms herself, and is desperate enough to believe she must abort. In fact I almost always refer to the state of the aborting mother as "in crisis", assuming it is clear to most of us that a woman in crisis can make choices she may not make if she did not have fear as a motivator.

I know I sound belligerent, but your self-righteousness and self-absorption sometimes really gets under my skin.

Sorry I seem that way to you. I do feel very strongly about certain injustices and I really don't care if people don't like me expressing my reaction to injustice - because to me stating the truth about a true injustice, even poorly and clumsily, and even if expressing these thoughts makes me look stupid, is what is more important than what anyone thinks of me. Even though I do care what other people think of me plenty of other times.

[ashlesha]

I don't know which posts to split while keeping this thread coherent...

@Eliza Thomason @Kim please continue any further abortion discussion here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ection-Thread)

[Kim]

I don't know which posts to split while keeping this thread coherent...

@Eliza Thomason @Kim please continue any further abortion discussion here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ection-Thread)

I suppose this was a "Hillary is evil" spin-off. In any case, I am not discussing it any further. Sorry for the derail.

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't know which posts to split while keeping this thread coherent...

@Eliza Thomason @Kim please continue any further abortion discussion here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ection-Thread)

Sorry for the disorderly posting, lungs!

[End]

Just assuming there's no "Kim body count".

I completely agree. For all his negatives (and there are alot I admit), there isn't really a credible or even plausible case to be made that Trump had a hit put out on someone that would be "problematic" to be allowed to live. With the Clintons? Ho boy, where do we begin on the whole chain of VERY convenient coincidences of people dying right before they may conceivably screw them over royally.

It's like with the mob and important witnesses. They had a habit of dying right before taking the stand if ya catch my meaning. I can tell you why Comey and Bernie did her bidding, they have families, and they were told in no uncertain terms what would become of said loved ones if they dared to defy the Clinton Political Machine. She's Tammany Hall on Steroids, I understand why they bent the knee given that fact. I'm hardcore in my libertarian beliefs... but even I may pause if carrying on my ideals to the bitter end meant my Mom and Brother die horribly. I'd rather take the path of martyrdom than see them die in front of me as I watched helplessly.

[Eliza Thomason]

I completely agree. For all his negatives (and there are alot I admit), there isn't really a credible or even plausible case to be made that Trump had a hit put out on someone that would be "problematic" to be allowed to live. With the Clintons? Ho boy, where do we begin on the whole chain of VERY convenient coincidences of people dying right before they may conceivably screw them over royally.

It's like with the mob and important witnesses. They had a habit of dying right before taking the stand if ya catch my meaning. I can tell you why Comey and Bernie did her bidding, they have families, and they were told in no uncertain terms what would become of said loved ones if they dared to defy the Clinton Political Machine. She's Tammany Hall on Steroids, I understand why they bent the knee given that fact. I'm hardcore in my libertarian beliefs... but even I may pause if carrying on my ideals to the bitter end meant my Mom and Brother die horribly. I'd rather take the path of martyrdom than see them die in front of me as I watched helplessly.

Yes. Killing - murder - is pretty serious. Yes, I can understand being afraid to publicly cross the Clinton's. And yes, we are not seeing "body count" issues with other candidates.

I might vote just to vote against Hillary.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Trump-Loving Christians Owe Bill Clinton an Apology

[Not A Communist Shill]

Why We Ask to See Candidates’ Tax Returns

[Erk]

I'm going to be the first to say I was wrong about Trump. He's going to collapse the US economy and turn us into nazi germany. He'll get away with it too, because well it was corrupt politicians faults in the first place. He says he's going to fix everything, but our very economy is dependant on the very status quo he claims he's going to dismantle. You can only fix the system by doing it very slowly one little piece at a time. They're trying to start with dismantling the federal prison system and crazy looney conspiracy theorists claim it's to flood us with criminals. Liberals are really botching up their attempt to destroy destructive nationalism with their terribly aggressive migration policies.

Trumps been saying for years he wouldn't run until things got so bad, and that had me fooled for a second, but if he cared so much why'd he wait so damn long to speak up? The only nasty conspiracy here is Trump, playing with the poor ignorant fools emotions, what a terrible man. Ugggghhhh.

[Not A Communist Shill]

[replica]

You guys are probably gonna give me shit for this, but i think Trump is clearly the best option.
Clinton
Pros:
Can't think of any, maybe you guys could give me some.
Cons:
Part of the establishment that has been fucking us without lube for decades.
With the DNC and the media's help, stole the nomination from Bernie Sanders.
Her disastrous meddling in Libya and Syria destabilized them, making them breeding grounds for jihadism.
Negligently had a private email server that had classified info hacked by foreign agencies.
Panders, flip flops, and says whatever she think will get votes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV4hrZueNZk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMqaItzolOg
She has a terrible track record with black people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uWu...ature=youtu.be
Her health is undeniably a concern. https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fbi-releas...174820715.html Quote from the article: "However, in December of 2012, Clinton suffered a concussion and then around the New Year had a blood clot," the FBI's summary said. "Based on her doctor's advice, she could only work at State for a few hours a day and could not recall every briefing she received."
Recieved millions from the very progressive countries of Saudi Arabi and Qatar, which execute people for witchcraft, being gay, getting raped, etc.
Lied multiple times under oath to a house committee about her emails, and Benghazi.
Not to mention all the illicit thing going on in the Clinton Foundation, holy shit.
I could name dozens more, she's the slimiest polititan in american history, no bullshit.
Trump
Pros:
His trade policies would bring jobs back to the U.S.
Anti corporatist/anti crony capitalist.
Non-interventionist
THE WALL! I probably lost some of you here lol. Honestly there are legitimate reasons to have our borders secured. One of the reasons is that right now the corporatists of our country are taking advantage of the cheap labor of undocumented people. Also, I have family from Mexico, and believe me, it is rife with crime and corruption. Being cautious of who you let in is NOT a bad idea. Also, the mexican president now supports the wall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtt198LweoU
Free market healthcare. Forcing insurance companies to compete for customers will force them to lower prices and provide better quality care. Compare that to Obamacare, which is a mandate to buy private insurance, allowing them to profit at the patient's expense. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...liticians.html This is also why EpiPens have skyrocketed in price. FDA regulations stifled all their competition.
Trump is the most supportive Republican in history for LGBTQ people.
The black community has some massive fucking problems. Unemployment 3x higher than the national average, 70% single parenthood rate, 81 killed and 400 injured due to gang violence in Chicago alone. Trump has talked about these problems frequently, Hillary hasn't.
He wants to remove the federal prohibition on weed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWIQ...ature=youtu.be
Cons:
Undiplomatic and tactless
He is not eloquent whatsoever and not very good at justifying his viewpoints. He gives the media tons of fodder to shoot at him.


If you guys think i'm wrong, I implore you to convince me otherwise.

[Raver]

Clinton and Trump are both terrible, but for different reasons. Hillary has a shady history with things she's done as secretary of state and the ever increasing body count of anyone that dares leak anything negative about her. It's not obvious at first glance, but if you do enough research, you will found out that she is up to no good. As for Trump, what's bad about him is more out in the open, the media does a good job of already showing his negative aspects. I wouldn't vote for either if I was American.

[replica]

To be clear, I definitely have my reservations about Trump, but he is the lesser of the two evils IMO. Ideologically I line up with Gary Johnson more, but there's no way he's gonna get a majority.

[SongOfSapphire]

I live in Georgia (the state), where some gas stations are currently low on or out of gas due to a leak last week. Yesterday I was inside a gas station to pay, and I asked the clerk whether they were running low at his station. He said they weren't yet but that he knew of three nearby stations where they had none left, when the guy behind me, who drove a Lexus suv with a Trump "Make America Great Again" sticker on the back and a Confederate flag sign on the front, asked, "Why? What happened?" I stifled the impulse to reply, "Please don't vote." He can't even keep up with issues that affect him directly; the question he asked, his Trump sticker, and the Confederate flag seem to me to imply woeful ignorance.

I am afraid Trump will win.

To a lesser extent, I'm afraid Clinton will win.

[replica]

so what specifically makes you think trump would be worse than clinton?

[Adam Strange]

so what specifically makes you think trump would be worse than clinton?

If you don't know the answer to this, I hope you will look into it.

Here's a place to start, concerning Donald's character:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htt91G2qDwM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM3rBuFVJGg

[Not A Communist Shill]

so what specifically makes you think trump would be worse than clinton?

Clinton has at least some conscience, and she is somewhat competent. Trump has no positive qualities whatsoever.

[Kim]

Clinton has at least some conscience, and she is somewhat competent. Trump has no positive qualities whatsoever.

She is not just somewhat competent. I am so sick of the "they are the same and both horrible" bullshit.

[Not A Communist Shill]

She is not just somewhat competent. I am so sick of the "they are the same and both horrible" bullshit.

Yes, true. She is about as experienced as you can get for such a role.

( although worryingly, 538 had this article on the subject: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...of-experience/ )

[Not A Communist Shill]

Why Trump is a bad candidate:
- he is a poor businessman (if he simply invested the money he inherited in the stock market, he would be far richer today than he is)
- he has no political experience
- he is a clear psychopath (as controversial as it is to publicly assign disorders to people)
- he is a pathological liar, far beyond the realms of what is normal for a politician
- he knows nothing of international affairs, and many other political issues
- he has cosied up to the tyrant Putin, called for Clinton to be hacked, and implied that he would like to see her assassinated
- he has no level of empathy for refugees, immigrants, or prisoners
- his tax proposals would make the poorer in society worse off
- he believes global warming is a hoax

[Kim]

( although worryingly, 538 had this article on the subject: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...of-experience/ )

Trump. End of discussion.

[strangeling]

If you vote Gary Johnson, I'll send you cookies or cupcakes or some other food you like.

/not_joking

[SongOfSapphire]

so what specifically makes you think trump would be worse than clinton?

Rather than waste time, I point you to Adam Strange's post:

If you don't know the answer to this, I hope you will look into it.

Here's a place to start, concerning Donald's character:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htt91G2qDwM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM3rBuFVJGg

[strangeling]

I don't like Trump or Hilary, but Hilary once got a rapist off as a defense attorney and laughed about it like it was just what you do as a lawyer. Course the same dude went on to rape more people. The interview where she talks about it is on youtube and other various places. https://youtu.be/Tor00iWUhDQ

But as much as I know Donald has poor character, I can't fathom how you all are so quick to defend her as having better character. Hilary is sketchy.

Vote Gary Johnson

[Pallas]

I think Trump and Hillary are pretty much equally bad people. The only problem is that people are going to be divided between Jill Stein and Gary Johnson as better candidates, and write in Bernie some, which will stop any of the non-Republican or Democratic candidates from winning, while Trump has far more enthusiastic supporters than Hillary. If you live in America, get your passport ASAP. I would also say the same to Austrians and some other country inhabitants. Right wing authoritarian "populism" is on the rise while left wing "populism" is tending to be stifled in favor of corporate-backed "liberals" who alienate many people through the cosmopolitanization of cultures.

[Raver]

The first of three presidential debates between Clinton and Trump has just begun, check it out here:

[Aylen]

I decided to skip the debates since they would not change my mind. I find Trump too whiny and weak minded to tolerate for long. So irritating...his antics are not amusing anymore. If he can keep it together for 90 minutes tonight doesn't mean he won't start crying about how unfair the process was to him, tomorrow.

I am finishing up season 4 of Vikings instead which is much more exciting and enjoyable.

[SongOfSapphire]

image.jpeg

[Not A Communist Shill]

[replica]

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I was busy playing Fallout 4

Why Trump is a bad candidate:
- he is a poor businessman (if he simply invested the money he inherited in the stock market, he would be far richer today than he is)
That's because he's spending that money building things, and employing thousands of people, instead of just letting it sit in an investment account. And of course he has failures in his past. Ask anyone who knows anything about business, 9 out of 10 businesses fail. Business is fucking hard

- he has no political experience
And look at where the political establishment has led us; 20,000,000,000,000 in debt, many credible economists say we're on the precipice of another major economic meltdown. The middle class continues to deteriorate, and Hillary wants to "continue Obama's legacy". She is more of the same, which is not what we need. If we stay on this trajectory, collapse is inevitable.
Given the approval ratings of our politicians, how is Trump being a political outsider considered a bad thing?

- he is a clear psychopath (as controversial as it is to publicly assign disorders to people)
Based on what? I actually find Clinton psychopathic.

Qaddafi had given up his nuclear weapons, he was a threat to nobody, and the people of Libya had a standard of living that was higher than 2/3 of the rest of Africa. Now look at Libya. It's chaos. It's a breeding ground for jihadism now. "We came, we saw, he died! (laughs)" I felt sick when she said that.

As a lawyer Clinton got a child rapist off and laughed about it too.

Look at Obama and how he has aged in 8 years. You can see it in his face, his posture, the way he carries himself. He is so drained. You can see how much weight he is burdened by. Clinton on the other hand seems... weightless. She takes no personal responsibility for her many mistakes. She has participated in the deaths of hundreds of thousands and doesn't feel that weight. She can make wrong decisions, lie about them, and feel no remorse for the destruction behind her.

- he is a pathological liar, far beyond the realms of what is normal for a politician
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uT68riwrFI
lol

- he knows nothing of international affairs, and many other political issues
Presidents are not experts in everything, they delegate. If Trump can get some decent advisers, and delegate properly, I don't see this as a big issue.

- he has cosied up to the tyrant Putin, called for Clinton to be hacked, and implied that he would like to see her assassinated
Cosied up with Putin? He hasn't recieved any money from him. Clinton has recieved millions from the despotic states of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Algeria, and so on. I think you could make a better case that she's cosied up with them. If you think they don't expect something in return you're incredibly naive. And listen, I'm not gonna sing Putins praises, he's not a good guy, but we don't want a contentious relationship with him. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCMyHJJrdDw

And he didn't call for Clinton to be hacked, she was ALREADY hacked. Trump said "I will tell you this, Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press." Didn't she say that there wasn't any classified material on that server? If that were the case, that would make it merely a foreign entity hacking a private citizen, which is a job for local law enforcement. Or... did she violate the Federal Records Act and destroy government documents? And what was in those emails that she wanted to destroy so badly? #thingsthatmakeyougohmm. That would make anything Russia put forward evidence of a crime. Saying this was very clever on Trump's part, believe it or not.

About the assassination bit, Trump's exact quote was: "Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish the second amendment, by the way, and if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But I tell you what, that will be a horrible day, if Hillary gets to put her judges in, right now we're tied." Clearly he's talking about party unity, and if you care about the second amendment you should line up behind him.

- he has no level of empathy for refugees, immigrants, or prisoners
Trump wants to create a safe zone in Syria for the refugees, which is preferable to having untold amounts of unskilled third worlders with incompatible values pouring into our countries, imo.
Trump doesn't have a problem with immigrants as long as they come in legally, so idk what you mean.
Prisoners? Clinton has received massive donations from private prisons you know.

- his tax proposals would make the poorer in society worse off
How so? The poor would only pay 12%. His plan is to lower the tax rate from 35% to 15% for small businesses and corporations alike. Do you think that money would only go to the executives on the top? In reality, businesses would use that money to employ more people, and expand their business so they can make even more profits. China has a corporate tax rate of 25% btw, in theory this would incentivize manufacturers to come back to the US.

- he believes global warming is a hoax
Yeah, this is one hang up I have, I still think he's better than Hillary.

[replica]

I have no idea if trump will be a good or bad president. It's a game of russian roulette. Hillary is a hollow point round. Trump is a big question mark. Which chamber will you fire?

[ghost of forum past]

Watching VP debate.

Tim Kaine: ESE
Mike Pence: LSI

[Not A Communist Shill]

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I was busy playing Fallout 4

Why Trump is a bad candidate:
- he is a poor businessman (if he simply invested the money he inherited in the stock market, he would be far richer today than he is)
That's because he's spending that money building things, and employing thousands of people, instead of just letting it sit in an investment account. And of course he has failures in his past. Ask anyone who knows anything about business, 9 out of 10 businesses fail. Business is fucking hard

Someone with many millions and who has engaged in many projects should not fail so badly. Again, if he had invested in the 500 companies in the S&P500, he would have been a far better businessman. In the one area he claims expertise, he is a failure.

- he has no political experience
And look at where the political establishment has led us; 20,000,000,000,000 in debt, many credible economists say we're on the precipice of another major economic meltdown. The middle class continues to deteriorate, and Hillary wants to "continue Obama's legacy". She is more of the same, which is not what we need. If we stay on this trajectory, collapse is inevitable.
Given the approval ratings of our politicians, how is Trump being a political outsider considered a bad thing?

Aside from ignorance of the political process, he has no knowledge whatsoever outside of his own little bubble. He believes that as President, he can simply do as he wishes, and he has already sided with Putin, called for the hacking of a politician's emails, and has engaged in innuendo where he suggested those who supported gun ownership could shoot Clinton if she was elected.

- he is a clear psychopath (as controversial as it is to publicly assign disorders to people)
Based on what? I actually find Clinton psychopathic.

Qaddafi had given up his nuclear weapons, he was a threat to nobody, and the people of Libya had a standard of living that was higher than 2/3 of the rest of Africa. Now look at Libya. It's chaos. It's a breeding ground for jihadism now. "We came, we saw, he died! (laughs)" I felt sick when she said that.

As a lawyer Clinton got a child rapist off and laughed about it too.

Look at Obama and how he has aged in 8 years. You can see it in his face, his posture, the way he carries himself. He is so drained. You can see how much weight he is burdened by. Clinton on the other hand seems... weightless. She takes no personal responsibility for her many mistakes. She has participated in the deaths of hundreds of thousands and doesn't feel that weight. She can make wrong decisions, lie about them, and feel no remorse for the destruction behind her.

I suggest you read this article: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/...nn-sanity-test

It may be true that Clinton has some of these traits, but Trump has combined the worst of his personality with abominable policies and statements.

- he knows nothing of international affairs, and many other political issues
Presidents are not experts in everything, they delegate. If Trump can get some decent advisers, and delegate properly, I don't see this as a big issue.

It doesn't seem like he is knowledgeable about anything, other than how to be a blowhard.

- he has cosied up to the tyrant Putin, called for Clinton to be hacked, and implied that he would like to see her assassinated
Cosied up with Putin? He hasn't recieved any money from him. Clinton has recieved millions from the despotic states of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Algeria, and so on. I think you could make a better case that she's cosied up with them. If you think they don't expect something in return you're incredibly naive. And listen, I'm not gonna sing Putins praises, he's not a good guy, but we don't want a contentious relationship with him. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCMyHJJrdDw

And he didn't call for Clinton to be hacked, she was ALREADY hacked. Trump said "I will tell you this, Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press." Didn't she say that there wasn't any classified material on that server? If that were the case, that would make it merely a foreign entity hacking a private citizen, which is a job for local law enforcement. Or... did she violate the Federal Records Act and destroy government documents? And what was in those emails that she wanted to destroy so badly? #thingsthatmakeyougohmm. That would make anything Russia put forward evidence of a crime. Saying this was very clever on Trump's part, believe it or not.

About the assassination bit, Trump's exact quote was: "Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish the second amendment, by the way, and if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But I tell you what, that will be a horrible day, if Hillary gets to put her judges in, right now we're tied." Clearly he's talking about party unity, and if you care about the second amendment you should line up behind him.

Trump has expressed public admiration for Putin's dictatorship over Russia, and has not condemned Russian incursions into Georgia and the Ukraine, both acts of aggression.

Trump also said that (in regards Hilary):
"I think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons. I think they should disarm. Immediately. What do you think. Yes? Take their guns away. She doesn’t want guns. Take them. Let’s see what happens to her. Take their guns away, OK. It will be very dangerous."

- he has no level of empathy for refugees, immigrants, or prisoners
Trump wants to create a safe zone in Syria for the refugees, which is preferable to having untold amounts of unskilled third worlders with incompatible values pouring into our countries, imo.
Trump doesn't have a problem with immigrants as long as they come in legally, so idk what you mean.
Prisoners? Clinton has received massive donations from private prisons you know.

When you have Trump supporting tyrants like Putin, calling Mexican immigrants rapists, and suggesting that medical treatment should be withheld from prisoners, you wonder if having "incompatible values" is a bad thing.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005

[SongOfSapphire]

image.jpeg

Edit to add (and I almost can't believe I find this necessary) that I intend this post as a joke.

[Park]

Donald Trump is leading over Hillary in the (the16types) polls.

[totalize]

If HRC can get away with breaking the law and flouting national security without a charge, then why shouldn't Donald Trump be able to get away with rape???

Come on. This is why you have to prosecute politicians if they break the law. Otherwise you will never be able to prosecute any of them for breaking the law. HRC should be in jail and if Donald is a rapist he should be in jail too.

[Raver]

Here's a live stream of the second presidential debate if you're interested in watching it: