Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: privacy vs transparency

  1. #1
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default privacy vs transparency

    Another instincts thread

    So is privacy / transparency instincts related?
    I know someone who I type as so/sx who seems as if he has no concept of privacy, he share everything with his friends even his fb/twitter/instagram accounts passwords

    I would never be like that, but I wonder what makes him like that? Is it so-first ? sp-last? Enneagram? Socionics? Or not type related?

  2. #2
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Clarify what you mean by privacy vs transparency?

    IME there's a certain breed of So/Sx, and Sx/Sos to a lesser extent, that I like to call the "Broadcaster". Usually in the EP temperaments, they're the types to just talk about stuff with whoever they happen to make prolonged eye contact with. If they have an idea or experience they think is cool, they'll just spill it out without really caring much about the other person's reaction.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  3. #3
    silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    3,786
    Mentioned
    317 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Why not soconics "positivist" vs. "negativist" types?

    What made you correlate this to your friend's instinct stacking instead?

  4. #4
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Clarify what you mean by privacy vs transparency?
    you can say secrecy vs openness

    IME there's a certain breed of So/Sx, and Sx/Sos to a lesser extent, that I like to call the "Broadcaster". Usually in the EP temperaments, they're the types to just talk about stuff with whoever they happen to make prolonged eye contact with. If they have an idea or experience they think is cool, they'll just spill it out without really caring much about the other person's reaction.
    No I don't think he's a "broadcaster", but I like the name
    you can say once he consider you a friend (this exclude strangers but it is not difficult to be a friend with him), he share any personal or even intimate relationships stuff
    for example I have his email and social media passwords, he tells me anything (good or bad) happen between him and his gf (not only me but even with his other friends)
    I can accept the idea that he is so trusting of others, or if he had a relationship problem and need advice (even though he would be stupid to ask me for a relationship advice)

    when I asked him why he said what's wrong with that? we are friends and I was like

  5. #5
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Why not soconics "positivist" vs. "negativist" types?

    What made you correlate this to your friend's instinct stacking instead?
    mainly because I was reading about instinct stackings last few days, but how would that relate to soconics "positivist" vs. "negativist" types?

  6. #6
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    2,529
    Mentioned
    374 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    There are several aspects to this, not just instincts. There is also type, level of trust, and the fact that information can be transferred only if the receiver is tuned to the same channel, expects a message, and can interpret the message correctly.

    I tend to share whatever I'm thinking about with the people whom I trust. Direct, unfiltered link between brain and mouth, with no topics off-limits. On the other hand, people whom I don't trust have no idea what I'm thinking. ILI's sometimes come close to knowing, I think, but they put their own fears and slant on it and miss the full meaning. ESI's seem to be able to construct what I'm thinking from non-verbal clues, but only as far as it pertains to them. Long range planning is opaque to them.

    I've actually always been very aware of what people say, even when very young. Double-entendre's were offensive to me, because I saw them as hidden meanings which were obviously true but for which the speaker could deny responsibility, and LIE's hate false information and non-ownership of actions.

    One of the things that attracted me to my ex-wife was that, when we were dating, her speech was free of sexual innuendos and double-entendres. I thought, At last! Finally, someone who is aware of what they are thinking and edits their thoughts before speaking! (I was less LIE then, less confident in myself.) I was mistaken. Her speech was free of sexual references because she didn't think about sex. When she started to, she pretty much shared her experiences with her sisters and the rest of her family.

    My instinct stacking is sx/so, with sp last. Therefore, I tend to want to establish a deep connection with just a few others, and how better to do that than through sharing? I also have an extended friend network, and that requires sharing information on a different level. Last, I don't care about protecting stuff (unless not protecting it violates the first two laws), so I am not fearful of people finding out too much about me and stealing my stuff. I never locked my doors until my ex-wife (sp-first) insisted on it. I mean, what are they going to do, take the couch? If they do, we get to pick out a new one. This all adds up to me being seen as "oversharing" sometimes.

    I always thought my bluntness and directness in speech was just me, and people could either take it or leave it, but in either case, their opinions were not going to impede my forward progress. But after studying Socionics, I now believe that my privacy/transparency behavior is related to my LIEness and my relation to my Dual, which means that other LIE's are going to do this, too. I'm private, in cases where revealing too much would allow someone to oppose my plans. I'm less private with people when their knowledge of my plans can't affect those plans. And I'm completely transparent with the few people I trust because Enneagram 6's (with which most ESI's identify) are anxious and distrustful. They "have lost faith in authorities when young" and are suspicious of other people's motives (Palmer), and "they do not want to be abandoned and left without support." (Riso & Hudson).
    Since this behavior is an early-learned, effective reaction to childhood threats to survival (probably when love was abruptly taken away), it is not going to change. The best way to deal with this and reassure them is to be open with them and transparent naturally (naturally, so as to be steady and reliable). They can then tell me if they think my open sharing is too risky.

    So, is privacy/transparency related to instinct? Possibly, at least to the extent that the instincts correlate to a person's needs for survival, since hiding or sharing information can affect that survival. Is it type related? Again, possibly, to the extent that type is correlated to instinct.

  7. #7
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    2,529
    Mentioned
    374 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    I can accept the idea that he is so trusting of others, or if he had a relationship problem and need advice (even though he would be stupid to ask me for a relationship advice)
    when I asked him why he said what's wrong with that? we are friends and I was like
    So, have you stolen his identity yet? No? Maybe he is a good judge of whom he can trust with his passwords.
    Most likely, he just doesn't think you can or will harm him in any way that matters to him.

  8. #8
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,892
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    you can say secrecy vs openness


    No I don't think he's a "broadcaster", but I like the name
    you can say once he consider you a friend (this exclude strangers but it is not difficult to be a friend with him), he share any personal or even intimate relationships stuff
    for example I have his email and social media passwords, he tells me anything (good or bad) happen between him and his gf (not only me but even with his other friends)
    I can accept the idea that he is so trusting of others, or if he had a relationship problem and need advice (even though he would be stupid to ask me for a relationship advice)

    when I asked him why he said what's wrong with that? we are friends and I was like
    I know an EIE-Ni sx/so who gave me all his passwords and told me, and just about anyone, his deepest darkest secrets from the beginning. He shared very private stuff in open forums which I found annoying, and sometimes flattering, but still annoying. He never asked for my passwords and I would never have given them to him, even after we moved in together. It took me way longer to open up to him. I never fully trusted him because he had a big mouth. Apparently he did this with every girl he thought he was in love with. I found that out in hindsight.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  9. #9
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    my own personal bubble
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    4,108
    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    My stacking is either so/sp/sx or sp/so/sx. I have a moderately strong need for privacy I'd say. I don't need to broadcast everything that's on my mind all the time on Facebook or on some other social media sites. I am wary to share overly personal details to myself to just anyone. Yet, when I'm comfortable, I often find myself sharing things about myself that are quite personal.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  10. #10
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    There are several aspects to this, not just instincts. There is also type, level of trust, and the fact that information can be transferred only if the receiver is tuned to the same channel, expects a message, and can interpret the message correctly.

    I tend to share whatever I'm thinking about with the people whom I trust. Direct, unfiltered link between brain and mouth, with no topics off-limits. On the other hand, people whom I don't trust have no idea what I'm thinking. ILI's sometimes come close to knowing, I think, but they put their own fears and slant on it and miss the full meaning. ESI's seem to be able to construct what I'm thinking from non-verbal clues, but only as far as it pertains to them. Long range planning is opaque to them.

    I've actually always been very aware of what people say, even when very young. Double-entendre's were offensive to me, because I saw them as hidden meanings which were obviously true but for which the speaker could deny responsibility, and LIE's hate false information and non-ownership of actions.
    Yeah I like direct communication too, and I can be very blunt too (when I was a kid people were saying I'm blunt, rude, insensitive...etc. but now it is less common maybe because I learnt to keep my thoughts to myself), and I definitely hate using hidden meanings.
    but there will be off-limit topics

    (I was less LIE then, less confident in myself.)
    I don't like it when people belittle themselves, so don't say it like this, it annoys me
    maybe this is better "I wasn't as mature and confident in myself as I'm now"

    My instinct stacking is sx/so, with sp last. Therefore, I tend to want to establish a deep connection with just a few others, and how better to do that than through sharing? I also have an extended friend network, and that requires sharing information on a different level. Last, I don't care about protecting stuff (unless not protecting it violates the first two laws), so I am not fearful of people finding out too much about me and stealing my stuff. I never locked my doors until my ex-wife (sp-first) insisted on it. I mean, what are they going to do, take the couch? If they do, we get to pick out a new one. This all adds up to me being seen as "oversharing" sometimes.
    I don't think of myself as "fearful of people finding out too much about me and stealing my stuff" I just find it uncomfortable, and I would lock the door because I don't like to be intruded upon.
    but it is interesting that you don't care about protecting stuff, do you think it is sp-last related?

    I always thought my bluntness and directness in speech was just me, and people could either take it or leave it, but in either case, their opinions were not going to impede my forward progress. But after studying Socionics, I now believe that my privacy/transparency behavior is related to my LIEness and my relation to my Dual, which means that other LIE's are going to do this, too. I'm private, in cases where revealing too much would allow someone to oppose my plans. I'm less private with people when their knowledge of my plans can't affect those plans. And I'm completely transparent with the few people I trust because Enneagram 6's (with which most ESI's identify) are anxious and distrustful. They "have lost faith in authorities when young" and are suspicious of other people's motives (Palmer), and "they do not want to be abandoned and left without support." (Riso & Hudson).
    Since this behavior is an early-learned, effective reaction to childhood threats to survival (probably when love was abruptly taken away), it is not going to change. The best way to deal with this and reassure them is to be open with them and transparent naturally (naturally, so as to be steady and reliable). They can then tell me if they think my open sharing is too risky.
    Why would most ESIs identify with E6 ?

    So, is privacy/transparency related to instinct? Possibly, at least to the extent that the instincts correlate to a person's needs for survival, since hiding or sharing information can affect that survival. Is it type related? Again, possibly, to the extent that type is correlated to instinct.
    Yeah fair point

  11. #11
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So, have you stolen his identity yet? No? Maybe he is a good judge of whom he can trust with his passwords.
    Most likely, he just doesn't think you can or will harm him in any way that matters to him.
    Why would I try to harm him? still I don't think it about good judgement, from what I understand he seems as if he doesn't expect anyone to harm him (why would anyone want to harm me? he may ask) which I see as being naive

  12. #12
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I know an EIE-Ni sx/so who gave me all his passwords and told me, and just about anyone, his deepest darkest secrets from the beginning. He shared very private stuff in open forums which I found annoying, and sometimes flattering, but still annoying. He never asked for my passwords andI would never have given them to him, even after we moved in together. It took me way longer to open up to him. I never fully trusted him because he had a big mouth. Apparently he did this with every girl he thought he was in love with. I found that out in hindsight.
    this sound like my friend, and yeah I agree that it is annoying and can make me more guarded
    So do you think it is type related in any way?

    P.S. I like the underlined parts

  13. #13
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    My stacking is either so/sp/sx or sp/so/sx. I have a moderately strong need for privacy I'd say. I don't need to broadcast everything that's on my mind all the time on Facebook or on some other social media sites. I am wary to share overly personal details to myself to just anyone. Yet, when I'm comfortable, I often find myself sharing things about myself that are quite personal.
    So do think it is type relate or not?

  14. #14
    Pookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 6w5-9-2 So/Sx
    Posts
    2,127
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I dont really withhold anything, as I dont have many things id want people to not know about me. So/sx, and heavily transparent.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

  15. #15
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i think wanting to be safe/protected from intrusion may be related to the sp instinct - that's loosely connected to privacy.

    i don't know if not wanting a public face (wanting invisibility) could be related to some placement of the social instinct.

    eta: being able to keep track of a large range of people and what information about you you've given each, how each may perceive you, and how it might all impact you and your social status - maybe that is so-first related?
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-05-2015 at 06:10 PM.

  16. #16
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    2,529
    Mentioned
    374 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So, have you stolen his identity yet? No? Maybe he is a good judge of whom he can trust with his passwords.
    Most likely, he just doesn't think you can or will harm him in any way that matters to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    Why would I try to harm him? still I don't think it about good judgement, from what I understand he seems as if he doesn't expect anyone to harm him (why would anyone want to harm me? he may ask) which I see as being naive
    Two points.
    One, he freely shares stuff with you because he has determined that you are trustworthy. People whom he deems to be untrustworthy probably know absolutely nothing about anything he does. While in their presence, he has no existence in or connections to any other part of his life. He is perfectly capable of distinguishing between the two types of people (or will be - one is born with trust, but then learns caution), but he also likes to keep it light around his friends, and this is the part that you see. And believe to be naive.
    Two, I said he doesn't think the people he shares with can or will harm him in any way that matters to him. This is true, but there is always more to be learned. His question, "Why would anyone want to harm me?" is less about having a foolish world-view, and more about finding out what you think. He can then find out what your own fears are, as you project them onto him.

  17. #17
    epheme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Japan
    TIM
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    431
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm very private. BUT if someone directly asks me something (and they don't seem sketch to me-which most people don't) I'll tell them just about anything they want to know. So, I'm very private but also open and honest, if that makes sense?

    The reason I don't do social media is because I think it's a huge invasion of privacy. Last month I realized my husband probably had pics of me on his facebook and I was like, "Do you have pics of me on your facebook? Can you take them down? It feels creepy. All these people I don't know looking at my life with you." To which he replied, "No. You're my wife. You're in my life. There are going to be pictures of you on my facebook."
    (I kind of liked that answer, but anyway... I type sx/sp)

    @silke I'm curios as to how this manifests in postivist vs. negativist too. I've read up on it but nothing I've been reading has been very enlightening. There was a thread recently where @Narc said something about it being breadth vs depth in conversation, or something to that effect(?) I'd link it but can't remember where is was.

  18. #18
    silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    3,786
    Mentioned
    317 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm private and it's not because I invest effort into being so, but because putting myself out there simply doesn't occur to me. There is a kind of unawareness about being more open that I unwittingly fall into. I type as sx/sp and social-last. Since putting myself out there doesn't come to my mind over 90% of the time, others also happen to not know much about me, nor any of the stories from my personal life. I will willingly share with a friend, however, once certain level of trust has been reached, and I've been in friendships and relationships where we shared account passwords and more. I actually appreciate others nudging at me to be more open, as it feels like something that I need to work on that I naturally omit from my life (which might be related to tertiary/weak soc instinct).

    @epheme and @Simo the descriptions of positivist/negativist dichotomy on wikisocion and some of the articles here mention that positivists are more given to trust at least at first acquaintance than negativists, and these differences could feed into their privacy requirements:

    Positivists - "At first I trust people, distrust needs to be substantiated", "It irritates me when people talk only of character flaws and inadequacies in others"
    Negativists - "People in general are good, but it's better to keep your distance from them" "Negativists orient at what they could potentially lose as a result of a certain situation or contact with other people, rather than what this situation or contact can bring to them"
    Pos/Neg from Strati - "LIE and EII quickly close the distance, since for both it may be easier to get along with one another than with their dual partners. Their duals are Negativist, Asking types – ESI and LSE – who in social interaction often keep at extended interpersonal distances and may make an impression of being rather cold and insular, with suspicion relating to anything new, including new acquaintances. Bringing the distance with a dual-negativist is frequently a difficult task – one has to overcome their "barrier of negativity", which will require a lot of effort in the absence of a sufficient amount of self-esteem."

  19. #19
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,892
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    this sound like my friend, and yeah I agree that it is annoying and can make me more guarded
    So do you think it is type related in any way?

    P.S. I like the underlined parts
    I don't know if it is type related. Some people are more open than others. Sx/so are some of the most open people I know but most would not share their passwords with just anyone. A big part of it for me is issues of control. I want to control and protect the context of my private interactions with others. I will probably tell someone anything they asked, about me, but anything I write is personal until I decide the time to share. I try to keep a record of my inner world but it can be disjointed and I would be the only one to decrypt it.

    If someone were to look through my journals and messages I am sure there would be a lot of misunderstanding if there was no context. I had to deal with an ex ILI sp/sx with severe jealousy issues and my Fe did not help the situation. I learned to control and keep things from him that were innocent but he would have felt betrayed. It was like walking on eggshells with him for the first part of our relationship.

    We were both private people but he took it to the extreme and didn't even want me to privately discuss our issues with my closest friends. I couldn't even talk about his talents (guitar being one) without him telling me not to tell other people his business. How much money he made was off limits even to my mom. I chose him over everyone and I settled into him being the only person I could talk to for a long time. He even downloaded a password crack and looked at everything on my computer at one point.I would never go that far. I would just ask once I had enough info confirm suspicions. What he found was an archive of fantasy and mental masturbation. It got ugly because those were my private thoughts and he had no context. :/

    It was self expression. Unfortunately I am jealous too and this relationship (more than any other) set the tone for how I deal in relationships now. I feel that I always have to keep everything private and not expose the other person. Don't show genuine affection in public because it is "wrong". This goes against my natural instinct that says, "fuck what everyone else thinks and show how you feel". In a sense I was trained at a young, and still impressionable age, by a gamma to repress and control myself. Made to feel stupid even for expressing too much Fe.This is a real conflict in me. But regardless I appreciate everything he taught me and I think I got to experience the world from a totally different perspective than I had previously, where I let my sx instinct run rampant and unchecked.

    I realize I am a big hypocrite too because I have spied on my exes but only when the truth was hitting me right in the heart. I knew something was wrong and once I followed my instincts it all came out and yeah I kind of blew up and acted irrational and crazy. Then they could not deal with my emotional fallout and they pulled away until I chilled the fuck out. Probably the best thing for someone to do when I rage but for me it was frustrating. I wanted everything (pour out their heart like I would) and was getting nothing.

    I was also taught to keep secrets from a very early age, (4 or 5) even from myself. This gave an impression of someone who had multiple personalities (I am not convinced. In fact I kind of reject that notion now but it made sense once). I am not willing to say that it was due to sp issues but in a way it was a survival instinct working in the background, as it should, imo. SOME of my sp first friends can be a bit obsessed about maintaining security and privacy, like on the internet or they have alarms on the cars and homes. I imagine if someone is out to do me harm no alarm will prevent it so why even think about it. I am never obsessed with it. I usually don't think about it until after the fact. hahah

    I would not give anyone a password to something like my email or forums. I give my netflix and hulu password to several of my family members and would also give it to close friends. I think I am naturally trusting with a healthy dose of skepticism, now. I can also be very naive and trust someone I feel is trustworthy based only on their energy. Sometimes I am right but other times I am so wrong.


    /tangent


    Edit:

    Positivists - "At first I trust people, distrust needs to be substantiated", "It irritates me when people talk only of character flaws and inadequacies in others"
    This bothers me, unless it is a friend and we are half joking. When people do this it makes me want to play devil's advocate. I really don't like to gossip and usually it is presented in gossip form. One on one I can deal with it but when people do it publicly it is irritating. I had an issue with this recently and I held my tongue but right now I really wish I had spoke out.

    Edit: LOL I am not gossiping about my ex here. I am stating the specifics of the relationship. If he were alive I would not talk about him because he would not want me to. At this point I know he doesn't give a fuck anymore.
    Last edited by Aylen; 10-06-2015 at 01:17 AM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  20. #20
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    @silke I'm curios as to how this manifests in postivist vs. negativist too. I've read up on it but nothing I've been reading has been very enlightening. There was a thread recently where @Narc said something about it being breadth vs depth in conversation, or something to that effect(?) I'd link it but can't remember where is was.
    Here is the quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    As far as positivism and negativism go, they're not really optimistic vs pessimistic or naive vs cynical or anything. Positivists are oriented more around conversational breadth and negativists to conversational depth. In that way, positivists direct a topic of conversation but have less to do with developing any thesis or argument, which is more the domain of negativists. In this way, positivists create conversational anchor points for the negativist to attach to and develop further.

    An example would be the positivist making an absolutist statement, "private school kids are pompous irritating asswipes", the negativist responding with "they're not all bad, what about Jimmy, Phil and Sandra?". The statement of the positivist may have taken account of that information but found the overwhelming majority of private school kids to be pompous, irritating and also asswipes. The negativist sees that statement from their perspective as lacking depth and 'fill in the gaps' left by the initial statement because of its method of delivery.

    I remember Radio remarking that when a positivist isn't talking (for bad mood or whatever reason), the negativist will provoke conversation in the way of a question like "What's wrong with you? You're awfully quiet." rather than just generating a new conversational topic, which the positivist would do in that situation with another positivist that's gone quiet. Seems like it's easier for two positivists to create conversation, but it'll essentially be two people generating conversational topics over and over at each other and not really ever reaching the point of a proper dialogue, more like two parallel monologues (I have a LSI friend I do this with), especially if both types are also declarers, whereas two negativists would be less talkative amongst each other.

  21. #21
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I don't know if it is type related. Some people are more open than others. Sx/so are some of the most open people I know but most would not share their passwords with just anyone. A big part of it for me is issues of control. I want to control and protect the context of my private interactions with others. I will probably tell someone anything they asked, about me, but anything I write is personal until I decide the time to share. I try to keep a record of my inner world but it can be disjointed and I would be the only one to decrypt it.

    If someone were to look through my journals and messages I am sure there would be a lot of misunderstanding if there was no context. I had to deal with an ex ILI sp/sx with severe jealousy issues and my Fe did not help the situation. I learned to control and keep things from him that were innocent but he would have felt betrayed. It was like walking on eggshells with him for the first part of our relationship.

    We were both private people but he took it to the extreme and didn't even want me to privately discuss our issues with my closest friends. I couldn't even talk about his talents (guitar being one) without him telling me not to tell other people his business. How much money he made was off limits even to my mom. I chose him over everyone and I settled into him being the only person I could talk to for a long time. He even downloaded a password crack and looked at everything on my computer at one point.I would never go that far. I would just ask once I had enough info confirm suspicions. What he found was an archive of fantasy and mental masturbation. It got ugly because those were my private thoughts and he had no context. :/

    It was self expression. Unfortunately I am jealous too and this relationship (more than any other) set the tone for how I deal in relationships now. I feel that I always have to keep everything private and not expose the other person. Don't show genuine affection in public because it is "wrong". This goes against my natural instinct that says, "fuck what everyone else thinks and show how you feel". In a sense I was trained at a young, and still impressionable age, by a gamma to repress and control myself. Made to feel stupid even for expressing too much Fe.This is a real conflict in me. But regardless I appreciate everything he taught me and I think I got to experience the world from a totally different perspective than I had previously, where I let my sx instinct run rampant and unchecked.

    I realize I am a big hypocrite too because I have spied on my exes but only when the truth was hitting me right in the heart. I knew something was wrong and once I followed my instincts it all came out and yeah I kind of blew up and acted irrational and crazy. Then they could not deal with my emotional fallout and they pulled away until I chilled the fuck out. Probably the best thing for someone to do when I rage but for me it was frustrating. I wanted everything (pour out their heart like I would) and was getting nothing.

    I was also taught to keep secrets from a very early age, (4 or 5) even from myself. This gave an impression of someone who had multiple personalities (I am not convinced. In fact I kind of reject that notion now but it made sense once). I am not willing to say that it was due to sp issues but in a way it was a survival instinct working in the background, as it should, imo. SOME of my sp first friends can be a bit obsessed about maintaining security and privacy, like on the internet or they have alarms on the cars and homes. I imagine if someone is out to do me harm no alarm will prevent it so why even think about it. I am never obsessed with it. I usually don't think about it until after the fact. hahah

    I would not give anyone a password to something like my email or forums. I give my netflix and hulu password to several of my family members and would also give it to close friends. I think I am naturally trusting with a healthy dose of skepticism, now. I can also be very naive and trust someone I feel is trustworthy based only on their energy. Sometimes I am right but other times I am so wrong.


    /tangent


    Edit:



    This bothers me, unless it is a friend and we are half joking. When people do this it makes me want to play devil's advocate. I really don't like to gossip and usually it is presented in gossip form. One on one I can deal with it but when people do it publicly it is irritating. I had an issue with this recently and I held my tongue but right now I really wish I had spoke out.
    You really poured out your heart

    But I think your examples are a bit extreme, I mean your ex ILI's privacy & jealously are unhealthy
    in case of cracking your password, maybe he was betrayed before so it is hard for him to trust you
    but in case of not wanting you to talk about his talents? that's strange maybe he is so critical of himself that he believe that you're making fun of him
    I consider myself as a private & jealous person but still this seems unhealthy to me

    and btw how do you keep secrets even from yourself? I agree it is a survival instinct working in the background of such mindset
    but I think there is an abnormal amount of fear & untrust triggering the instinct

    If he were alive I would not talk about him because he would not want me to. At this point I know he doesn't give a fuck anymore.
    Sorry to hear that

  22. #22
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,892
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    You really poured out your heart

    But I think your examples are a bit extreme, I mean your ex ILI's privacy & jealously are unhealthy
    in case of cracking your password, maybe he was betrayed before so it is hard for him to trust you
    but in case of not wanting you to talk about his talents? that's strange maybe he is so critical of himself that he believe that you're making fun of him
    I consider myself as a private & jealous person but still this seems unhealthy to me

    and btw how do you keep secrets even from yourself? I agree it is a survival instinct working in the background of such mindset
    but I think there is an abnormal amount of fear & untrust triggering the instinct

    Sorry to hear that
    In his defense he worked on himself. He bought books on emotional intelligence and he even learned my ways of the tarot. He was kind of forced by a situation to face his jealousy and overcome it, to a degree. I have written about this before so won't go into it. He put a lot of effort into it and by the time he died he was a changed person, spiritually.



    And thank you, I am ok with it now. I am out of the mourning period that comes with losing a family member. That is what he is to me. We remained good friends after our breakup. We even lived together with our new partners. Mine was SLE and I thought his was EIE, but now I think she was probably SEE. She was something special. I had a love/hate thing with her and she dragged me into a lot of trouble. She and I had a crush on each other but that was as far as it went. hahah I know my life might sound insane to most people and that is why I keep quiet on a lot of things but I feel kind of open right now.

    She got him to do things that he and I never would have done as a couple. I might have listed his unhealthy traits here but I have sang his praises around the forum, in various, threads. He was an amazing person and very talented but very self critical too. He taught me more than any book ever could. You could say we grew up and matured together.I don't like to give socionics a lot of credit, but, the lack of Se did lead to a type of inertia, for us, after we got through the passionate fighting period. I probably have talked about him a lot but only because this is me retrospecting on why our relationship worked the way it did. It is mostly analytical for me now to compare him to those I see here type ILI. I don't mean compare in a good or bad way. Just trying to understand this theory better and he is what I would consider an exemplar of everything I read of ILI.

    Edit He got me into MBTI and told me my type in that system before I even knew for myself. Maybe me finding this forum, while I was mourning him, was part of his legacy.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  23. #23
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    In his defense he worked on himself. He bought books on emotional intelligence and he even learned my ways of the tarot. He was kind of forced by a situation to face his jealousy and overcome it, to a degree. I have written about this before so won't go into it. He put a lot of effort into it and by the time he died he was a changed person, spiritually.
    I can relate to this since I too worked on myself and bought books on emotional intelligence/relationships/self-development and even started reading about MBTI all in attempt to fix my relationship with my ex but I was too late < at least I think I know why that relationship didn't work and reading all that stuff really opened my mind to things I never considered

    And thank you, I am ok with it now. I am out of the mourning period that comes with losing a family member. That is what he is to me. We remained good friends after our breakup. We even lived together with our new partners. Mine was SLE and I thought his was EIE, but now I think she was probably SEE. She was something special. I had a love/hate thing with her and she dragged me into a lot of trouble. She and I had a crush on each other but that was as far as it went. hahah I know my life might sound insane to most people and that is why I keep quiet on a lot of things but I feel kind of open right now.
    for me, I prefer not meet my ex after breakup since I'd be so cold and emotionless with her and I don't believe I can go back from love to friendship

    Maybe me finding this forum, while I was mourning him, was part of his legacy.
    Do you read a lot of fiction?

  24. #24
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Which one am I?

  25. #25
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,892
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    for me, I prefer not meet my ex after breakup since I'd be so cold and emotionless with her and I don't believe I can go back from love to friendship
    I don't like to end things on bad terms. I can be in a room with exes and we all get along fine. Probably because I like to have some kind of closure on one chapter before starting another. It sucks when there are lingering bad feelings on either side. I prefer not to carry that through life with me.

    Do you read a lot of fiction?
    Probably.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  26. #26
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    564
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I don't like to end things on bad terms. I can be in a room with exes and we all get along fine. Probably because I like to have some kind of closure on one chapter before starting another. It sucks when there are lingering bad feelings on either side. I prefer not to carry that through life with me.
    No I don't think it ended on bad terms but I am just a little critical on myself so it isn't like I become cold because I have bad feeling for her but because I blame myself

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •