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Thread: Gamma Duality

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I used to think about it the same way, actually. Probably why I did not mention the two in this thread before. I used to think he was LIE-Ni.
    However, people skills are often a trait of SO/SP. Light is SO/SP E1, and I find it possible he is simply a strong Te subtype who has learned to deal with people because of his SO instinct.
    At last, one has to keep in mind the Wikipage was created by fans, not the author/mangaka themselves. That means that other people perceive him to be this way, it might not be that accurate.
    But sure, I could accept it if he was actually LIE, and Misa SEE (I am pretty certain she is SEE-Fi, I don't see ESI for her at all). At least they illustrate the Pseudo-Victim/Pseudo-Aggressor dynamic pretty well, which is rather often the case in Gamma Duality.
    The stats listed on the page are taken from real stats included in the original manga by the original creator. It's not fan-created. They've got all the other characters' stats as well for comparison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    The stats listed on the page are taken from real stats included in the original manga by the original creator. It's not fan-created. They've got all the other characters' stats as well for comparison.
    Oh really? That's neat.
    Well, fine. The rest of my statement still holds.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I agree that @End is probably the most submissive sounding person here, when it comes to explaining what he wants from a woman, because he openly admits it. End is also correct in saying it is the more submissive who often have the power in those dynamics but not going into how I know that. It is not really relevant to share my understanding to understand his position. A victim type is probably more likely to do their "victim" thing more subtly though, to the point many will not even realize what they want except the person they are focused on, irl. Even then some people will not understand because that is not their natural inclination. If you have to tell someone how to pursue you then they are probably not going to get it right.



    It is easier to admit some things here that you would never allow an acquaintances to know, even some things you would not tell your best friend. I relate to the bold part of victim more than the openly submissive and feminine (seeming) one.

    I can relate to both bolded and unbolded and will routinely switch between the two depending on how I feel and where my life is at that moment. It all depends in how much tormoil Im into making for myself.

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    I've watched Deathnote 3 times and you seriously cannot believe Light is L's quasi-identical...

    Light - LIE
    Misa - SEE
    Near - ILI
    Mello - SLE
    Lawliet - LII

    All fairly obvious to me, Misa and L are conflictors, L and Light are not quasi-identicals at all but L and Near are, and Mello is the latter's semi-dual...they clearly have that INTJ-ESTP grudge match thiing between them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    I've watched Deathnote 3 times and you seriously cannot believe Light is L's quasi-identical...

    Light - LIE
    Misa - SEE
    Near - ILI
    Mello - SLE
    Lawliet - LII

    All fairly obvious to me, Misa and L are conflictors, L and Light are not quasi-identicals at all but L and Near are, and Mello is the latter's semi-dual...they clearly have that INTJ-ESTP grudge match thiing between them.
    Indeed. I'll also add,

    Mikami LSI
    Ryuk and Matt ILE
    Light's dad LSE
    Matsuda IEE
    Aizawa SLI
    Rem likely Fi lead



    Stats all support the typings as well. If you do your research, it's obvious the creators had almost socionics-like knowledge of characterology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Indeed. I'll also add,

    Mikami LSI
    Ryuk and Matt ILE
    Light's dad LSE
    Matsuda IEE
    Aizawa SLI
    Rem likely Fi lead

    Stats all support the typings as well. If you do your research, it's obvious the creators had almost socionics-like knowledge of characterology.
    Yeah I agree and Rem is an introverted negativist to me so ESI seems a good shout.

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    I actually mostly agree with your typings, I'd just found Matsuda to be more of an SEI.
    And Mello is more likely SEE... He was often accused of being "dumb", and I see him more as being Ti PoLR than Ti Creative.
    He surely was E3, trying really hard to be admired and successful, but not quite succeeding at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I actually mostly agree with your typings, I'd just found Matsuda to be more of an SEI.
    And Mello is more likely SEE... He was often accused of being "dumb", and I see him more as being Ti PoLR than Ti Creative.
    He surely was E3, trying really hard to be admired and successful, but not quite succeeding at it.
    When did he get accused of being dumb, other than with his own inferiority complex? He was from an orphanage of gifted individuals.

    Matsuda was a person who was literally accused of being an idiot in multiple episodes, such that it became a catchphrase. If that's how you want to see Ti PoLR, the example suits Matsuda, not Mello.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    I've watched Deathnote 3 times and you seriously cannot believe Light is L's quasi-identical...

    Light - LIE
    Misa - SEE
    Near - ILI
    Mello - SLE
    Lawliet - LII

    All fairly obvious to me, Misa and L are conflictors, L and Light are not quasi-identicals at all but L and Near are, and Mello is the latter's semi-dual...they clearly have that INTJ-ESTP grudge match thiing between them.
    This "grudge match" thing between an ILI and an SLE is something I've noticed before, but I didn't previously associate it with their socionics types. When two guys of these respective types are just working together on business-related things (writing contracts and proposals) (Ti-Te), they are both vocal in their lack of respect for each other (Fi-Fe). But they recently had to work together for a few days in the field, coordinating their actions and setting up some complex equipment (Se-Ni), and when they returned, it was like they were in love with each other. That didn't last long, though.

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    I actually thought Mello was EIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bled View Post
    I actually thought Mello was EIE.
    EIE is closer than SEE for him, but his social skills aren't good enough for EIE. Also, he's too smart.

    Here, I'll pull up the Death Note character stats for you guys to look and decide for yourselves. These can be found on the Death Note Wikia, but again, these are official stats written by the creators of Death Note.

    Mello
    Intelligence 7/10[1]
    Creativity 7/10[1]
    Initiative 10/10[1]
    Emotional Strength 8/10[1]
    Social Skills 9/10[1]
    Other Attribute Inferiority Complex: 8/10[1]


    Matsuda
    Intelligence 4/10
    Creativity 5/10
    Initiative 6/10
    Emotional Strength 5/10
    Social Skills 6/10
    Other Attribute Unpredictability: 9/10


    Light
    ntelligence 9/10[1]
    Creativity 10/10[1]
    Initiative 8/10[1]
    Emotional Strength 10/10[1]
    Social Skills 10/10[1]
    Other Attribute Acting Skills: 10/10[1]


    Near
    Intelligence 9/10[1]
    Creativity 10/10[1]
    Initiative 6/10[1]
    Emotional Strength 10/10[1]
    Social Skills 1/10[1]
    Other Attribute Life Skills: 1/10[1]

    L
    Intelligence 8/10[1]
    Creativity 10/10[1]
    Initiative 9/10[1]
    Emotional Strength 10/10[1]
    Social Skills 1/10[1]
    Other Attribute Sweet Tooth: 10/10[1]


    Misa
    Intelligence 3/10[1]
    Creativity 4/10[1]
    Initiative 10/10[1]
    Emotional Strength 6/10[1]
    Social Skills 10/10[1]
    Other Attribute Charm: 10/10[1]


    Mikami
    Intelligence 8/10
    Creativity 7/10
    Initiative 8/10
    Emotional Strength 10/10
    Social Skills 5/10
    Other Attribute Loyalty: 10/10
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  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonare View Post
    Honestly, I think Romantic styles only go so far @End. It's in the nature of men to approach and women to be approached, I think aggressor women simply display more consistent signs of interest than victims who tend not to. Even mb ESFP women (most probably SEE) that I've encountered tend not to approach, they just consistently bombard you with signs of interest until you do, and if you don't then they don't want you anymore and move on to the next interesting guy. They're not exactly going to wait forever, if a guy doesn't have the balls to at least talk to them after they've made their interest abundantly obvious to everyone in the room then that's really on the guy, victim or not.

    Sin City reminded me of this thread, needless to say what the pic below is of

    This is closer to my experience with ILIs and SLIs. It's more of a natural coming together like puzzle pieces to just enjoy each other. Then pulsatingly getting closer as each party slowly examines his/her interest.

  13. #173
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    Doomed to failure in American society.

    IEE Ne Creative Type

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Doomed to failure in American society.
    Why?
    I don't really see why...? Please explain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Why?
    I don't really see why...? Please explain.
    Due to the exploitative nature of the profit motive as the sole motive of a corporation. There needs to be more balance in order for Gamma duality to ever hope to succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Due to the exploitative nature of the profit motive as the sole motive of a corporation. There needs to be more balance in order for Gamma duality to ever hope to succeed.
    Gamma duality has some problems, but I don't think those problems have much to do with the profit motive of corporations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Gamma duality has some problems, but I don't think those problems have much to do with the profit motive of corporations.
    Gamma duality has major problems these days. Yes it is due to the exploitative nature of unbridled Capitalism. There must be hard limits and regulations to keep everyone sane and in the intelligent can remain intelligent without devolving into mud slinging. The fact that my SLI wife is claiming to be an ESI is proving that the disturbance is having a noticeable ripple effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Gamma duality has some problems, but I don't think those problems have much to do with the profit motive of corporations.
    What are those problems you are talking about exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Gamma duality has major problems these days. Yes it is due to the exploitative nature of unbridled Capitalism. There must be hard limits and regulations to keep everyone sane and in the intelligent can remain intelligent without devolving into mud slinging. The fact that my SLI wife is claiming to be an ESI is proving that the disturbance is having a noticeable ripple effect.
    That's odd. I know of more Duality couples from the U.S than from Europe.
    And also, I don't see why your wife or anyone for that matter (mis?)typing themselves as ESI means Gamma Duality is doomed.
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    I see obliviousness to catastrophe is still at an all time high. I hope when Obama steps out of office doesn't literally wreck your expectations of duality. Adam is probably intitially sexually attracted to my SLI wife more than he ever will at first with his own dual. That will weigh very heavily on her for her entire life, making that really messed up a thing to do. It's happened multiple times, which is why you never fall for your own Supervisor; you'll regret falling in love with them in the end. Me wife is a dandy SLI, not ESI, don't get your hopes up, people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Adam is probably intitially sexually attracted to my SLI wife more than he ever will at first with his own dual. That will weigh very heavily on her for her entire life, making that really messed up a thing to do. It's happened multiple times, which is why you never fall for your own Supervisor; you'll regret falling in love with them in the end. Me wife is a dandy SLI, not ESI, don't get your hopes up, people.
    First you are implying that Gammas would fall for their Supervisor before their Dual, but then you say they won't? Or rather, they regret the love... Well.
    It seems like most people would regret falling for their Supervisor.

    So, I am wondering – Do you believe everyone falls more often for their Supervisor than their Dual first? This is an interesting thought.

    Based on my experiences, it seems like LIE men do fall for their SLI Supervisor more often than their Dual (at first). I do not see this happening with the other Gammas as often, though. ESIs (especially the females) often date their Supervisee (SLE) but not really their Supervisor (IEE). With ILIs there does not seem to be a trend of them dating either a Supervisor (EIE) or Supervisee (LSE), they tend to date any other type before those two. Female SEEs do have a tendency to date their Supervisor (LSI) before their Dual, but this could just be a matter of ILIs being less common than LSIs (IME). Having said that, from all Gammas, I find SEEs (mostly the males) end up with their Dual the most often. (The female SEEs commonly end up with their Mirror, while the male SEEs who do not marry their Dual marry their Mirage partner instead.)

    As far as I know, LIE-ESI Duality tends to only really occur later in life, usually when the LIE is at least in his middle age.
    While SEE-ILI Duality tends to happen sooner (and later).
    Last edited by Olimpia; 05-31-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by limping bird View Post
    Thanks for trying to make socionics into a picture book.
    Are you being sarcastic...?
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    I know an older LIE (f)- ESI (m) couple who have been married 30+ years, and are very happy together. They both worked until retirement (actually, she is old enough to retire but is a workaholic, and still working full-time in her very stressful but well-paying job). She earned/earns way more money than he did/does, which that seems to have been their biggest, maybe only, source of stress in the relationship, but they've made it work and adore each other.

    (It's interesting to me, btw, that she has always driven fancy cars whole he has always had nice but much less expensive ones...I don't know them well enough to ask questions about it, but I would guess gender roles and pride account for that to an extent, based on what I do know and gather.)

    Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as an example of a happy Gamma dual couple, together for a long time.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Adam is probably intitially sexually attracted to my SLI wife more than he ever will at first with his own dual.
    Actually, I was not very sexually attracted to my SLI ex. What I liked about her was the fact that she fit all the items on my "list", which were (explicitly) that she be intelligent, thin, have red hair, be about my height (she is taller, and in heels is much taller), have a good job in a science field not my own, and be interested in Astronomy. She also had the (implicit) virtue of being a rational introvert and of having the same personality as my father (), so I could (unknowingly) fix that relationship by marrying her. Bonuses were that we are equally attractive and look like a couple, she made almost exactly as much as I did when we married, and she didn't try to tell me what to do very often. Also, she is emotionally stable and very practical, an e5 to my e8.

    I didn't know about Caregiver-Victim relations at the time we were dating. I just figured things would get better with time. I also didn't find Supervision too problematic, because she is SLI-Te, and looks much more like a Mirror to me in that respect.

    So, I think my marrying a Supervisor is a one-off, a fluke, a very special case, and is not likely to be repeated by me or anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    First you are implying that Gammas would fall for their Supervisor before their Dual, but then you say they won't? Or rather, they regret the love... Well.
    It seems like most people would regret falling for their Supervisor.

    So, I am wondering – Do you believe everyone falls more often for their Supervisor than their Dual first? This is an interesting thought.

    Based on my experiences, it seems like LIE men do fall for their SLI Supervisor more often than their Dual (at first). I do not see this happening with the other Gammas as often, though. ESIs (especially the females) often date their Supervisee (SLE) but not really their Supervisor (IEE).
    None of the LIE's I know irl are married to a dual. One LIE (an e3 professor) is married to an LII (Te-Ti attraction but Extinguishent), and they lead completely separate lives (surprise!). Another is married to what looks like an LSI (private half-dual, or Mirage), because LIEs find LSI to be extremely hot, and another is married to an EII (public half-dual, or Semi-Dual) because she is s helpful sweetheart. the only LIE-ESI-Se dual pair I can cite is a couple who sat next to me at a piano concert. He sat there stoically in a black suit and gold watch () and she, dressed in colors with a certain flair, coughed throughout the concert.

    Of the five female ESI's I know irl, three are single and two are married to ILI's. One of the married ones implied that she wasn't getting enough sex, and the other seemed disappointed that her husband is so introverted. But, they both seem unlikely to change partners.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    With ILIs there does not seem to be a trend of them dating either a Supervisor (EIE) or Supervisee (LSE), they tend to date any other type before those two. Female SEEs do have a tendency to date their Supervisor (LSI) before their Dual, but this could just be a matter of ILIs being less common than LSIs (IME). Having said that, from all Gammas, I find SEEs (mostly the males) end up with their Dual the most often. (The female SEEs commonly end up with their Mirror, while the male SEEs who do not marry their Dual marry their Mirage partner instead.)

    As far as I know, LIE-ESI Duality tends to only really occur later in life, usually when the LIE is at least in his middle age.
    While SEE-ILI Duality tends to happen sooner (and later).
    Well, better late than never.

    I am looking for an ESI now, even though I have never exactly "dated" one before (for more than a 16 hour romp in the woods), and so can't speak from experience. The LSI's showed me that their form of half-duality can be pretty sweet in practice, and my acquaintance with an EII has shown me that that form of half-duality can be pretty supportive in practice.

    Here is the strange thing: Even though I'm now looking for an ESI, and can recognize them irl and have seen enough of them to verify that they probably make up 10% of the female population, I can't seem to find a way to connect with them. They seem like air to me. The males are easy to connect with. But the females, not so much.

    Well, I expect this will change when the right one comes along.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-31-2016 at 06:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I know an older LIE (f)- ESI (m) couple who have been married 30+ years, and are very happy together. They both worked until retirement (actually, she is old enough to retire but is a workaholic, and still working full-time in her very stressful but well-paying job). She earned/earns way more money than he did/does, which that seems to have been their biggest, maybe only, source of stress in the relationship, but they've made it work and adore each other.

    (It's interesting to me, btw, that she has always driven fancy cars whole he has always had nice but much less expensive ones...I don't know them well enough to ask questions about it, but I would guess gender roles and pride account for that to an extent, based on what I do know and gather.)

    Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as an example of a happy Gamma dual couple, together for a long time.
    This is super-encouraging, @sapphire. And very good to hear.

    I used to drive beater cars, which are ultra-cheap cars that you beat on until they die by the side of the road. My SLI-ex had a new car when we got married, and I then started buying S-class Mercedes because I'm not a great driver and they are very, very good in crashes and if I'm going to save one thing, it will be my family. But when we divorced, I switched to two-door sports cars ( shades of a mid-life crisis).

    One thing I will say in her favor, she never cared how much money I made, and vice versa. That is Fi, in my opinion, and is what I need most. There was one year when I was starting my business when she made 100X what I did, and later I made 10X what she did, and it never was an issue. The money went into a pot, and we spent what we needed to spend on the family, and saved the rest.

  25. #185
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    First you are implying that Gammas would fall for their Supervisor before their Dual, but then you say they won't? Or rather, they regret the love... Well.
    Gamma rationals unfortunately frequently do; the price to pay for putting profits over humanity first unlike us valuers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    It seems like most people would regret falling for their Supervisor.
    Unless they're already married and committed to one another yes, everyone who knows of duality regrets loving their Supervisor too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    So, I am wondering – Do you believe everyone falls more often for their Supervisor than their Dual first? This is an interesting thought.
    I don't really know why Gamma rational Duality is so broken. Maybe you should be telling me why Gamma rational Duality is so broken compared to all of the other Quadra Dualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Based on my experiences, it seems like LIE men do fall for their SLI Supervisor more often than their Dual (at first). I do not see this happening with the other Gammas as often, though.
    Not naturally but in a professional workplace, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    ESIs (especially the females) often date their Supervisee (SLE) but not really their Supervisor (IEE).
    Yes, because IEE don't really want to marry any Supervisee. Plus Beta and Gamma sensors have some of the rarest duals and thus intermarry quite often.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    With ILIs there does not seem to be a trend of them dating either a Supervisor (EIE) or Supervisee (LSE), they tend to date any other type before those two. Female SEEs do have a tendency to date their Supervisor (LSI) before their Dual, but this could just be a matter of ILIs being less common than LSIs (IME).
    Most ILI are intelligent enough to know to attract their dual exclusively. Which is why I said Gamma rational duality is broken; the Gamma irrationals seem to know what they're doing in terms of forging an enduring love life.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Having said that, from all Gammas, I find SEEs (mostly the males) end up with their Dual the most often. (The female SEEs commonly end up with their Mirror, while the male SEEs who do not marry their Dual marry their Mirage partner instead.)
    I don't agree. In my experience both male and female SEE seek their dual for marriage or at least friendship. Female SEE do frequently find themselves with their dual. Mirages never marry anymore when they both can introduce one another to so many different people. That's just a fact of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    As far as I know, LIE-ESI Duality tends to only really occur later in life, usually when the LIE is at least in his middle age. While SEE-ILI Duality tends to happen sooner.
    *sigh* That's because Gamma rational duality is often times considered logically irrational; and couples don't realize that until their 30s. While Gamma irrational duality happens at a much younger age, they tend to not love one another until they are both into their 30s. There's too much variety in love interests to keep Gamma irrationals solely monogamous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Actually, I was not very sexually attracted to my SLI ex. What I liked about her was the fact that she fit all the items on my "list", which were (explicitly) that she be intelligent, thin, have red hair, be about my height (she is taller, and in heels is much taller), have a good job in a science field not my own, and be interested in Astronomy. She also had the (implicit) virtue of being a rational introvert and of having the same personality as my father (), so I could (unknowingly) fix that relationship by marrying her. Bonuses were that we are equally attractive and look like a couple, she made almost exactly as much as I did when we married, and she didn't try to tell me what to do very often. Also, she is emotionally stable and very practical, an e5 to my e8.
    Sounds about right. The paragraph starts off great then makes your Beneficiary(IEE) want to vomit because of the middle and the ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I didn't know about Caregiver-Victim relations at the time we were dating. I just figured things would get better with time. I also didn't find Supervision too problematic, because she is SLI-Te, and looks much more like a Mirror to me in that respect.
    I hate the term "Victim". egos would be better described as "Proposalists"; because they are always looking to stir something new up. Also yes, the Supervisee never has a problem with their Supervisor until the Supervisor has to romantically reject their Supervisee. Broken society is very broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So, I think my marrying a Supervisor is a one-off, a fluke, a very special case, and is not likely to be repeated by me or anyone else.
    It happens most often in societies that arrange marriages; which is unlikely in American Culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    None of the LIE's I know irl are married to a dual. One LIE (an e3 professor) is married to an LII (Te-Ti attraction but Extinguishent), and they lead completely separate lives (surprise!). Another is married to what looks like an LSI (private half-dual, or Mirage), because LIEs find LSI to be extremely hot, and another is married to an EII (public half-dual, or Semi-Dual) because she is a helpful sweetheart.
    Goes to show how broken American Gamma duality in rationals really are. Everything you wrote sounds tragic to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    the only LIE-ESI-Se dual pair I can cite is a couple who sat next to me at a piano concert. He sat there stoically in a black suit and gold watch () and she, dressed in colors with a certain flair, coughed throughout the concert.
    What's wrong with a gold watch? Maybe daddy wants to show his sugar that he knows how to bling. LMFAO. Plus she sounds like she's completely wonderful due to her dual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Of the five female ESI's I know irl, three are single and two are married to ILI's. One of the married ones implied that she wasn't getting enough sex, and the other seemed disappointed that her husband is so introverted. But, they both seem unlikely to change partners.
    Well, I guess there's hope yet. You need to find more ways to bling though. creative just loves bling. True story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Here is the strange thing: Even though I'm now looking for an ESI, and can recognize them irl and have seen enough of them to verify that they probably make up 10% of the female population, I can't seem to find a way to connect with them. They seem like air to me. The males are easy to connect with. But the females, not so much.

    Well, I expect this will change when the right one comes along.
    Yep.

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Are you just freaking out regarding Gammas & gamma duality because (in your own words) you think your "wife" might leave you for an LIE bc she thinks she's ESI?

    ^time to not take socionics so seriously maybe? Could just be relationship issues.

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Are you just freaking out regarding Gammas & gamma duality because (in your own words) you think your "wife" might leave you for an LIE bc she thinks she's ESI?

    ^time to not take socionics so seriously maybe? Could just be relationship issues.
    That's like the least of my worries bb. I'm worried about American Gammas who came from Europe most of all. Have more kids dag gummit!!!!! You guys are being taken advantage of!

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Are you just freaking out regarding Gammas & gamma duality because (in your own words) you think your "wife" might leave you for an LIE bc she thinks she's ESI?

    ^time to not take socionics so seriously maybe? Could just be relationship issues.
    Plus I already know my wife wouldn't cheat on me which is why I'm never worried about her leaving me for another man. How's your life, BTW?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Plus I already know my wife wouldn't cheat on me
    Most of the ones which had cheated spouse probably thought same. Cheating is widespreaded, and even about 10% of children can to be from other men. The number of divorces is ~50% in today European culture, it's common when they were preacted by cheating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Most of the ones which had cheated spouse probably thought same. Cheating is widespreaded, and even about 10% of children can to be from other men. The number of divorces is ~50% in today European culture, it's common when they were preacted by cheating.
    Sure Sol. Keep the dying dream alive. In fact you're so wrong that the exact opposite is true, if she allows for it, that is. I don't really like to though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Unless they're already married and committed to one another yes, everyone who knows of duality regrets loving their Supervisor too much.
    I was actually hinting towards the fact that Supervision relations are emotionally pretty unstable and exhausting for both parties involved if they are too close. It's the worst when the Supervisor is not being very forgiving, self-aware and giving the other person enough space. Even under the most ideal conditions, the Supervisee will always feel more stressed out, due to the "PoLR hits" etc. The Supervisor may try to "control" his Leading function, but ultimately you are your Leading function, so the conflicts are inevitable. In short, people dislike Supervision even when being unaware of Duality, thanks to the nature of Supervision.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    I don't really know why Gamma rational Duality is so broken. Maybe you should be telling me why Gamma rational Duality is so broken compared to all of the other Quadra Dualities.
    (...) You need to find more ways to bling though. creative just loves bling. True story..
    There you answered your own question.
    As far as I know, ESI-LIE duality mostly occurs when the LIE is rich or (very) well-off financially. The entire "gold digger" culture (I'd call it a form of subculture; you may also look up "Sugar baby dating") is interestingly full of ESI models (amateur or "legit") trying to win the affection/money of rich LIE men. Of course there are exceptions, in that not all of those relationships are only gold digger-based, so to speak. You can have a loving relationship with ESI-LIE duality... But yeah, this is the point where I would say Rational Gamma Duality is "broken". The Rational Gamma Duality of the Rich usually happens between a female who is gorgeous thanks to plastic surgery and SP/SX, and a rich LIE guy who has been driven by his Se HA (and Self-preservation instinct, as well as being Type 3) to succeed financially – as I said, he is usually Type 3, and SO/SP. The ESIs who do not care as much about "the bling" and the "high life" tend to prefer other more introverted types like ILI or a fellow ESI. The LIEs who are SX/SO will likely not end up with an ESI, unless they magically become rich (or manage to get with an ESI who is less into "the bling lifestyle" and hasn't married an ILI or ESI yet). I am not saying it is impossible, but it seems rather unlikely (blame the SP blindspot and SX romantic idealism). SEE, LSI, EII, or even EIE seem to be the more likely life partners for SX/SO LIEs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Yes, because IEE don't really want to marry any Supervisee. Plus Beta and Gamma sensors have some of the rarest duals and thus intermarry quite often.
    Good point. I'd agree that Ni ego types are the rarest. Many Socionics people like to believe the types are evenly distributed, but I highly doubt that, based on MBTI stats (well, flock me for looking at them haha ) and personal experience. I find it difficult to find fellow Ni ego types IRL. They are not common, people. If you believe so, you are either extremely lucky to be in a place frequented by Ni types, or you are just mistyping too many people, in my humble opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Most ILI are intelligent enough to know to attract their dual exclusively. Which is why I said Gamma rational duality is broken; the Gamma irrationals seem to know what they're doing in terms of forging an enduring love life.
    Hm, interesting. It's true that ILIs are gifted with a good vision of what kind of partner they want and would like to/could attract. Also, their Fi is simply better than the LIE's, so they are more aware of what they actually like in a potential partner. With LIEs, I see they go through a lot of trial and error, something ILIs don't do much at all. They seem more slow energetically, and do not move forward as quickly as LIEs do, but once the time is right they are deliberate and find their Dual (or at least Activity or Mirage partner) to settle down with. They "don't play games". Those ILIs who have troubles with finding a good partner are stifled due to certain personal issues or insecurities that usually need to get resolved first. Once the ILI has gone through this phase, they are pretty good at finding a suitable partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    I don't agree. In my experience both male and female SEE seek their dual for marriage or at least friendship. Female SEE do frequently find themselves with their dual. Mirages never marry anymore when they both can introduce one another to so many different people. That's just a fact of life.
    Fair enough. My experiences/observations have simply been different in that regard. I actually don't really know any female SEE with their Dual in marriage, as I think about it. As I said, most of the female SEEs I know of marry their Mirror, sometimes their Mirage partner, a bit more rarely their Identical. I'd disagree with you saying people won't marry their Mirage if they have met many different people before. Mirage can be very appealing to many people – IME, there are many more Mirage marriages than Duality marriages. I believe it boils down to either the Dual being more rare and hence most people don't get in a relationship with one, and/or the Dual appearing too "daunting" or "foreign" to the person. A Mirage partner appears to be similar to your Dual, but because of the same Sensing/Intuition modality seems more relatable, too. That's why most people are much more comfortable becoming close to a Mirage partner than their Dual. With SEEs specifically, they are commonly very "high strung" people who have a lot going on in their lives. Mirage can have a calming and relaxing effect on the people involved, so it makes sense for SEEs (and SLEs) to enjoy this kind of arrangement over others, especially when they cannot find their Dual or the Dual seems "too weird" to them from afar.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    I hate the term "Victim". egos would be better described as "Proposalists"; because they are always looking to stir something new up.
    To me this sounds like you don't really understand how the Victim Romance Style works. No, they are not looking to "stir things up", unless perhaps they have Aggressor tendencies. The Victim Romance Style is characterized by this belief in the dynamic nature of romantic interest. For the Victim, romantic attraction can be highly elusive, partly because it is so elusive in their own experience, so the Victim wishes to have their elusive interest become more solidified through clear indicators of interest or "intent" by the other person, preferably an Aggressor. Because the Victim often struggles with developing and showing clear romantic interest, as well as believing that attraction is such an elusive thing that could disappear in a moment's notice, they require the other to be secure and certain in their own interest. That is what makes the Victim Romance Style "victim-ish" – they are a Victim to their wavering (un)certainty regarding romantic interest, a victim to the other person being clear in their intent – and if they aren't, they'll be plunged into a sea of self-doubt and inactivity (especially the case for the Ni subtypes). Even if the Victim is more certain in their romantic interest and strongly infatuated, they won't be able to move forward with the relationship unless the other person has made their own interest very clear to them. This is why I find it pretty difficult to establish a romantic connection with fellow Victims – the ball is always in the other person's court with a Victim, and if both people are Victims, where the heck is the ball? The "more Victim" the guy, the worse it is. I'll have to get a ball, and that is not cool, ha. This is one of the reasons (a pretty significant one actually) why I am not in favour of dating a fellow Victim.
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  32. #192
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I was actually hinting towards the fact that Supervision relations are emotionally pretty unstable and exhausting for both parties involved if they are too close. It's the worst when the Supervisor is not being very forgiving, self-aware and giving the other person enough space. Even under the most ideal conditions, the Supervisee will always feel more stressed out, due to the "PoLR hits" etc. The Supervisor may try to "control" his Leading function, but ultimately you are your Leading function, so the conflicts are inevitable. In short, people dislike Supervision even when being unaware of Duality, thanks to the nature of Supervision.
    I have a degree in Engineering so LIIs will be everywhere I work and we get along fine. We simply keep to ourselves, I stay out of his or her way and the Supervisor pretty much leaves me alone. I'm guessing in your example there was an attraction by the Supervisee that wasn't returned by the Supervisor. That never ends well for the Supervisee. He may as well transfer to a new department or simply get a new job and quit if he can't deal with the added stress. It's also a learning experience as in any large workplace all of the 16 types will be quite well represented.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    There you answered your own question.
    As far as I know, ESI-LIE duality mostly occurs when the LIE is rich or (very) well-off financially. The entire "gold digger" culture (I'd call it a form of subculture; you may also look up "Sugar baby dating") is interestingly full of ESI models (amateur or "legit") trying to win the affection/money of rich LIE men. Of course there are exceptions, in that not all of those relationships are only gold digger-based, so to speak. You can have a loving relationship with ESI-LIE duality... But yeah, this is the point where I would say Rational Gamma Duality is "broken". The Rational Gamma Duality of the Rich usually happens between a female who is gorgeous thanks to plastic surgery and SP/SX, and a rich LIE guy who has been driven by his Se HA (and Self-preservation instinct, as well as being Type 3) to succeed financially – as I said, he is usually Type 3, and SO/SP. The ESIs who do not care as much about "the bling" and the "high life" tend to prefer other more introverted types like ILI or a fellow ESI. The LIEs who are SX/SO will likely not end up with an ESI, unless they magically become rich (or manage to get with an ESI who is less into "the bling lifestyle" and hasn't married an ILI or ESI yet). I am not saying it is impossible, but it seems rather unlikely (blame the SP blindspot and SX romantic idealism). SEE, LSI, EII, or even EIE seem to be the more likely life partners for SX/SO LIEs.
    Yes, I agree that the materialistic nature of Gamma rational duality is the reason why it's so broken. Although what you've described sounds more like East Coast US Gamma duality. Out here on the West Coast ESI models will date then marry LIEs who earn a decent living but go out with their model of a gf/wife looking like a bum. lol We're much more relaxed out here, especially in California. Also, out here leads if with their dual but doesn't have a degree will work like a waitressing job to support their bf while paying to put themselves through school to receive a degree. Gamma duality is quite endearing to find out about out here on the other side of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Good point. I'd agree that Ni ego types are the rarest. Many Socionics people like to believe the types are evenly distributed, but I highly doubt that, based on MBTI stats (well, flock me for looking at them haha ) and personal experience. I find it difficult to find fellow Ni ego types IRL. They are not common, people. If you believe so, you are either extremely lucky to be in a place frequented by Ni types, or you are just mistyping too many people, in my humble opinion.
    Outside of Academia, I practically never run into an Ni ego type other than the occasional IEI or EIE and sometimes even an LIE. I sometimes occasionally will bump into an ILI but usually are female and married therefore be less than willing to start a conversation with me. Online I tend to frequent places that all the Ni egos seem to enjoy, so I get to pick their brains through the magic of the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Hm, interesting. It's true that ILIs are gifted with a good vision of what kind of partner they want and would like to/could attract. Also, their Fi is simply better than the LIE's, so they are more aware of what they actually like in a potential partner. With LIEs, I see they go through a lot of trial and error, something ILIs don't do much at all. They seem more slow energetically, and do not move forward as quickly as LIEs do, but once the time is right they are deliberate and find their Dual (or at least Activity or Mirage partner) to settle down with. They "don't play games". Those ILIs who have troubles with finding a good partner are stifled due to certain personal issues or insecurities that usually need to get resolved first. Once the ILI has gone through this phase, they are pretty good at finding a suitable partner.
    Yes, very true that the ILI's Fi is much better than that of the LIE. That's where they majorly diverge and are thus mirrors due to that fact. Trying to get an LIE is like trying to extract a bad tooth from an unwilling patient but still tries to pay you afterward. lol Yes, LIEs are much more swift in action because that's how Ej dynamics are while Ip dynamics are more thoughtful and save their energy until they're ready to take action, if at all. Successful ILI don't really have a problem finding their dual. Most living in the US VI in such a stereotypical way it's almost eerie. An ILI simply needs to prove to the SEE that he or she can provide and that's all there is to the courtship.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    Fair enough. My experiences/observations have simply been different in that regard. I actually don't really know any female SEE with their Dual in marriage, as I think about it. As I said, most of the female SEEs I know of marry their Mirror, sometimes their Mirage partner, a bit more rarely their Identical. I'd disagree with you saying people won't marry their Mirage if they have met many different people before. Mirage can be very appealing to many people – IME, there are many more Mirage marriages than Duality marriages. I believe it boils down to either the Dual being more rare and hence most people don't get in a relationship with one, and/or the Dual appearing too "daunting" or "foreign" to the person. A Mirage partner appears to be similar to your Dual, but because of the same Sensing/Intuition modality seems more relatable, too. That's why most people are much more comfortable becoming close to a Mirage partner than their Dual. With SEEs specifically, they are commonly very "high strung" people who have a lot going on in their lives. Mirage can have a calming and relaxing effect on the people involved, so it makes sense for SEEs (and SLEs) to enjoy this kind of arrangement over others, especially when they cannot find their Dual or the Dual seems "too weird" to them from afar.
    You said you live in Europe. I can see that being the case since the concept wasn't introduced to Europe until about 140 years ago and the concept of duality wasn't known in Europe until about 25 years ago. There are a lot of factors in Europe specifically that make Duality seem less "logical". Around here though, those of us who do know of Duality pursue a Dual whenever possible. Heck, my wife traveled over 5000 miles (8000 km) to start a family with me. She wanted a Dual Husband that bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    To me this sounds like you don't really understand how the Victim Romance Stye works. No, they are not looking to "stir things up", unless perhaps they have Aggressor tendencies. The Victim Romance Style is characterized by this belief in the dynamic nature of romantic interest. For the Victim, romantic attraction can be highly elusive, partly because it is so elusive in their own experience, so the Victim wishes to have their elusive interest become more solidified through clear indicators of interest or "intent" by the other person, preferably an Aggressor. Because the Victim often struggles with developing and showing clear romantic interest, as well as believing that attraction is such an elusive thing that could disappear in a moment's notice, they require the other to be secure and certain in their own interest. That is what makes the Victim Romance Style "victim-ish" – they are a Victim to their wavering (un)certainty regarding romantic interest, a victim to the other person being clear in their intent – and if they aren't, they'll be plunged into a sea of self-doubt and inactivity (especially the case for the Ni subtypes). Even if the Victim is more certain in their romantic interest and strongly infatuated, they won't be able to move forward with the relationship unless the other person has made their own interest very clear to them. This is why I find it pretty difficult to establish a romantic connection with fellow Victims – the ball is always in the other person's court with a Victim, and if both people are Victims, where the heck is the ball? The "more Victim" the guy, the worse it is. I'll have to get a ball, and that is not cool, ha. This is one of the reasons (a pretty significant one actually) why I am not in favour of dating a fellow Victim.
    No, I understand the attachment styles very well. "Victim" isn't as good a word to use as "Proposalist". Since aggressors are all Static types they tend to be unchanging their ways and are the types to get stuck in a rut. Ni ego is characteristically change driven so they will always like to make new proposals to want to change something old. Ni ego types are also the type to become the most depressed if they feel that their life is stagnant or has no purpose or meaning. This is where their Aggressor comes into the picture by either making them feel better about themselves in some physical way or to help work their way through their woes.

    Also, I remember a pretty funny event regarding the bring a ball part. An IEI who was the mutual friend with us all wanted to play a game of soccer (it's called football where this took place though) and invited us all to play on his field. His friends mostly consisted of Ni egos, including me and an SLE and SEE. When we all arrived at his field hilariously only two people brought a ball. Can you guess which two brought a ball to play with? lol We had a good time btw and we all ended up treating the only two who didn't forget to bring a ball to some drinks.
    Last edited by MisterNi; 06-01-2016 at 07:18 AM.

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    Olimpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    I'm guessing in your example there was an attraction by the Supervisee that wasn't returned by the Supervisor. That never ends well for the Supervisee. He may as well transfer to a new department or simply get a new job and quit if he can't deal with the added stress. It's also a learning experience as in any large workplace all of the 16 types will be quite well represented.
    I was talking about the Supervision relation in general, not talking of one specific example, but all my experiences and observations with Supervision – both having been the Supervisee and Supervisor, and seeing how other Supervision interactions play(ed) out, especially in a romantic context.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    You said you live in Europe. I can see that being the case since the concept wasn't introduced to Europe until about 140 years ago and the concept of duality wasn't known in Europe until about 25 years ago. There are a lot of factors in Europe specifically that make Duality seem less "logical". Around here though, those of us who do know of Duality pursue a Dual whenever possible. Heck, my wife traveled over 5000 miles (8000 km) to start a family with me. She wanted a Dual Husband that bad!
    You make it sound like most people in the U.S consciously pursue their Dual, and I don't see that happening at all. Socionics is nowhere nearly that popular, not even in Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    No, I understand the attachment styles very well. "Victim" isn't as good a word to use as "Proposalist". Since aggressors are all Static types they tend to be unchanging their ways and are the types to get stuck in a rut. Ni ego is characteristically change driven so they will always like to make new proposals to want to change something old. Ni ego types are also the type to become the most depressed if they feel that their life is stagnant or has no purpose or meaning. This is where their Aggressor comes into the picture by either making them feel better about themselves in some physical way or to help work their way through their woes.
    You are indeed describing the interaction between Se and Ni ego types, in terms of how they supply each other with their Dual-seeking/Mobilising function, but you do not really talk about the Romance Style itself there. When I talk about the Romance Styles in romantic contexts, I will use the "Victim" and "Aggressor" terminology. Outside of that, I find it misleading to use the terms.
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  34. #194
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I was talking about the Supervision relation in general, not talking of one specific example, but all my experiences and observations with Supervision – both having been the Supervisee and Supervisor, and seeing how other Supervision interactions play(ed) out, especially in a romantic context.
    Romantically, Beta-Gamma and Alpha-Delta Supervisor+Supervisee relationships have much chance of succeeding. Sometimes Alpha-Beta and Gamma-Delta relationships can work if everyone is sympathetic toward one another but Duality is overall like 10,000% better than any relation of Supervision. Supervision relationships rank among the bottom in terms of both endurance and endearment. I'd rate the relationship to only be nominally better than a long term Conflictor relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    You make it sound like most people in the U.S consciously pursue their Dual, and I don't see that happening at all. Socionics is nowhere nearly that popular, not even in Russia.
    I didn't say everyone in the US, I said around here and the people I know. I introduced MBTI then Socionics to my wife which afterwards is when she decided she wanted to be with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    You are indeed describing the interaction between Se and Ni ego types, in terms of how they supply each other with their Dual-seeking/Mobilising function, but you do not really talk about the Romance Style itself there. When I talk about the Romance Styles in romantic contexts, I will use the "Victim" and "Aggressor" terminology. Outside of that, I find it misleading to use the terms.
    What I wrote applies in a romantic context as well.

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  35. #195
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Plus I already know my wife wouldn't cheat on me which is why I'm never worried about her leaving me for another man. How's your life, BTW?
    You literally said the above (what I asked in my post): that LIEs were trying to sleep with your wife then you proceeded to go on a rant about gamma rationals.

    Anyways, youz got issues. I think ignoring your posts is my only option to not be incessantly annoyed when I log in to this site; your posts do not seem to be slowing down. (But then again I did engage you this time).

  36. #196
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    You literally said the above (what I asked in my post): that LIEs were trying to sleep with your wife then you proceeded to go on a rant about gamma rationals.
    No I didn't bb. There's no LIE trying to get with my wife and my wife is loyal. I wasn't ranting about Gamma rationals; I was telling all of you why Gamma rational Duality is currently broken in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Anyways, youz got issues. I think ignoring your posts is my only option to not be incessantly annoyed when I log in to this site; your posts do not seem to be slowing down. (But then again I did engage you this time).
    Please don't ignore me; ask me questions instead. Otherwise, no, no, no and No!

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    .......
    Also, why are you an ESI when you're obviously an ILI type?

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  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Also, why are you an ESI when you're obviously an ILI type?
    OMG. She's ESI because she's demanding and bossy, not nice, and she shuffles people off rudely. She's dominatrix
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    OMG. She's ESI because she's demanding and bossy, not nice, and she shuffles people off rudely. She's dominatrix
    ILI type. I went to school with her and we're friends. I wouldn't mislead her on her own typing. My wife is an SLI and you should see some of the stuff she gets away with as a boss. Understanding allows lots of privileges in an office.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    ILI type. I went to school with her and we're friends. I wouldn't mislead her on her own typing. My wife is an SLI and you should see some of the stuff she gets away with as a boss. Understanding allows lots of privileges in an office.
    no
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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